If you could do it over would you?

[CambieMD]

Monthly student loan payments is like paying rent. There is no enduring about it since you still have money left on your paycheck to make a living.

Monthly payments is what matters on a practical level. As mentioned earlier student loans will not take more than 20% of your check so it wont kill you as long as you are reasonable with your money.

One of the most important things that you can do is try to keep the principal on your student loans down by paying off the quarterly interest . I graduated from med school almost 15 years ago and I am still paying on my student loans.

I hope to have my med school loans paid off by the end of 2011. My car is 10 yrs old and I do not want to take on a car payment before I get this monkey off my back.

I have been aggressive in paying down my med school debt.

Try to pay more than the minimum required.

Cambie

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[MB333999]

Yes. Definitely. I hated working for a Wall Street firm. At the time, I said "if I had to do it again, I'd be a doctor." So, I walked away from what was a promising career & the blood money that came with it. For those who dream about what life would be like on the Street, it's very much romanticized & mystified as much as how some of you envisioned medicine. Call us ******. Call us addicts, but people make so much money on the Street that they feel enslaved/trapped in their jobs. My decision to leave the Street for med school was a running joke. Clearly, I was making a bad financial decision in their minds, what irony. And in my second act of defiance, I picked family medicine despite urging to do anesthesia, pedi, IM/Pulm/CC, EM... "anything but FM". But I picked it because my FM attendings were the happiest faculty out of everyone I rotated with in 3rd & 4th year.

My practice is everything I romanticized it would be as a family doc & more meaningful & gratifying than any day on the Street because I feel like I'm making a difference. Young, old, healthy, sick, common & obscure, inpatient, outpatient, urgent, & chronic... the variety is phenomenal & I feel like I'm challenged and learning. My call schedule is a piece of cake. I do work hard, though, & my hours are long... but that would've been true no matter what job I chose.

I'm happy with my pay (even though statistically I make much less than a whole miserable lot of you). I feel like I earned every penny I take home. When I stop having fun at my job, I'll leave... there's no blood money... my freedom & happiness is worth more than that.

The difference, I think, is that I practice in the community & I'm versatile. I'm removed from the hospital money & power structure and that makes a huge difference. Don't get me wrong, I have good days & bad ones just like everyone else.

I'd encourage you to chase your dreams and not let temptation detract you from them.

that was a refreshing comment

 

[nitemagi]

Yes I would definitely do it again.

I'm finishing up 4th yr of residency in Psychiatry. Went to a private med school, and I have 120k in loans (or so).

I see misery in medicine attributable to many factors, but the worst is a sense of entitlement. Congratulations, you're smart. But you are not not not a special snowflake. People work hard everywhere. If you're expecting a golden payoff at the end of the tunnel of your delayed gratification, more likely you're just going to find your life is empty, perhaps with cash, perhaps, but more likely without the requisite maturity to appreciate the time you have.

Take time off before med school. Live a little, figure out what you really want.

I'm in a specialty that does emphasize lifestyle, but I work hard. A lot. It's emotionally intensive, even when I'm just prescribing meds, and even moreso when I'm doing therapy. But I am thankful for having the privilege to be the person in the role of helping my patients, of making a comfortable salary, and working in a complex field that is never ever boring.

 

[Double Bonded]

I hear this type of thing a lot when asking practicing physicians. It seems like the people who waited before matriculating are happier and can cope with the stress better. Maybe it's because they prevent themselves from getting burned out too fast from all of the hoops they need to jump through.

People who wait for a couple of years or the ones that have previous (non-medical) work seem to be happier.

I get a bit skeptical when people who go straight from high school -> undergrad -> med school -> residency -> attending say "yes, I would do it again..I can't see myself doing anything else."

Maybe they can't see themselves doing anything else because they don't know what else is out there (like a 9-5 job, 5 days/wk, no weekends, holidays, or call) because they never even looked.

 

[muhali3]

Yes I would definitely do it again.

I'm finishing up 4th yr of residency in Psychiatry. Went to a private med school, and I have 120k in loans (or so).

I see misery in medicine attributable to many factors, but the worst is a sense of entitlement. Congratulations, you're smart. But you are not not not a special snowflake. People work hard everywhere. If you're expecting a golden payoff at the end of the tunnel of your delayed gratification, more likely you're just going to find your life is empty, perhaps with cash, perhaps, but more likely without the requisite maturity to appreciate the time you have.

Take time off before med school. Live a little, figure out what you really want.

I'm in a specialty that does emphasize lifestyle, but I work hard. A lot. It's emotionally intensive, even when I'm just prescribing meds, and even moreso when I'm doing therapy. But I am thankful for having the privilege to be the person in the role of helping my patients, of making a comfortable salary, and working in a complex field that is never ever boring.

What did you do before MS/after UG? Is shadowing enough to know if this is the right profession?

 

[nitemagi]

What did you do before MS/after UG? Is shadowing enough to know if this is the right profession?

Shadowing is enough to know if you like it, but not enough to spend time getting to know yourself otherwise, nor enough to look seriously at other professions you might like.

 

[eforest]

I started seriously thinking about my decision to go to medical school when I hit a particularly difficult rotation this year (I'm an intern) where I realized that circus animals are probably treated better. Working 33 hours in a row can make you hate life. Also, you may not realize it, but residents/ interns are treated worse than anyone else in the hospital. I didn't go into medicine so that people would bow down to me and hold me in the highest respect... but I never expected to be treated as though I'm not even a human being. This might be unique to my geographic area, though.

Luckily, the bad rotation ended, and, with more sleep under my belt I feel better about my decision.

 

[cjw0918]

No, I would not do it over again and it really makes me sad. I love my specialty and don't mind working the long hours. But I am a PGY-6 and will be finished training with 2 fellowships Jul 1. I cannot find a job. I cannot explain how devastatingly disappointing it is to do all this work and not be able to find a job. Yes, I am geographically restricted, but still. I thought if I worked hard and became very good at my specialty, good things would happen. But it doesn't work that way. It's all about timing, and right now the economy sucks. I will continue to hope something opens up, but things aren't looking too good.

 

[muhali3]

No, I would not do it over again and it really makes me sad. I love my specialty and don't mind working the long hours. But I am a PGY-6 and will be finished training with 2 fellowships Jul 1. I cannot find a job. I cannot explain how devastatingly disappointing it is to do all this work and not be able to find a job. Yes, I am geographically restricted, but still. I thought if I worked hard and became very good at my specialty, good things would happen. But it doesn't work that way. It's all about timing, and right now the economy sucks. I will continue to hope something opens up, but things aren't looking too good.

I'm assuming you went into Path. Hopefully things will turn out well for you eventually.

 

[BuckeyesFan]

2 years ago, I probably would have answered this question "No" but now it is a definite "Yes"

Keep in mind that medicine can offer more flexibility than you would initially imagine and sometimes it takes some time to find your niche.

From the time I decided to apply to medical school, I pictured myself as a family physician. The trouble is, by the time I got there, it wasn't really what I thought it would be. I felt like I made a fair salary, the call wasn't bad, I was appreciated by my patients, the paperwork wasn't horrendous, I worked for a large health care entity so I didn't have to deal with any of the business aspects - I just got bored going back and forth between the same two rooms all day hearing the same complaints over and over again. I suspect it would have gotten better over time as I got to know patients better (I had been at my last job 3 years but a lot of my patients were younger and fairly healthy so not in a lot - and 15 minute appointments don't leave a lot of extra time to get to know people). I started to wonder if I should have been an architect or an accountant (although I met my husband in medical school, so that kind of creates a dilemma).

So I quit my job in family medicine, did a one year fellowship in hospice and palliative medicine, and now I work for a hospice. I love it. I get outside each day and get to see patients in their homes, I see 4-6 patients in the average day, I have a whole team of nurses, social workers, chaplains, home health aides, and even volunteers to help me with patient care, and I can schedule the time I need to complete my administrative duties, plus patients and families are tremendously appreciative & it's amazingly rewarding. It took me 8 years after I completed residency, but for the first time in my life I actually look forward to going to work each day, which I had never thought would happen.

I also have a friend who was an oncologist, and has now made a career change to genetic counseling (as a physician doing genetic counseling, not a genetic counselor) and another who started in family medicine and now has transitioned to a chief medical officer of a local hospital.

Some other things to consider about medicine:

If you want more family time, there aren't many jobs out there where you can work part time (50%) and still make over $70,000 (that's my experience with FP in the midwest).

If you don't have kids (or you have a supportive spouse to help out with your busy times), I have a lot of friends who love their ER/Urgent Care/Hospitalist schedules - often a week on then a week off or something similar.

If 100% practice isn't for you, there are opportunities in administration, teaching, consulting, etc.

I know a lot of people in non-medical fields that don't love their jobs, either (teaching, market research, sales, computers, etc.) - and some of them don't even have jobs anymore. One thing you can say about medicine is that it has good job security. For family medicine in my area (MidWest), you could literally find a job within 30 mintues of wherever you wanted to live.

Also, I have good health insurance, I have the knowledge to make exceptionally well-informed medical decisions for myself, I have been able to help my family make difficult medical decisions because of the knowledge I have gained and have grown closer to my grandparents (before they passed away) and parents because of this. I don't have to worry about being able to pay the gas bill this month because it has been -5 to 15 degrees here for the past few weeks, and I have money to spend on vacations, hobbies, etc.

So, yes - I would do it again.

 

[danielmd06]

Everyone I know in Sleep Med says it rocks.

Agreed. Many residents don't know much about Sleep Medicine because they are not exposed to or taught about it. Maybe a 1-hour lecture in 3rd or 4th year...

I encourage you to look into not just Sleep, but other pathways like it that you may have had absolutely minimial (or no) exposure to. You can't find diamonds if you don't look.

 

[wallstdoc]

I havent posted on here in years, but I just thought I would post my two cents.

I left my job on wall st to go to medical and was THE WORST DECISION OF MY LIFE. I would have quit the middle of 3rd year but finished out med school with the "why stop now"mentality. I am now in internship and have decided I am done after this year. Done with clinical medicine. There really are not many jobs out there that are worse than being a doctor. And for those in med school or are premed, and you say you would do it again... you aren't done yet? How can you say that.

This profession sucks and its only getting worse. No one can say with a straight face medicine will be better in 5 years, 10 years. I look at attendings busting their rear for what? Working weekends? Holidays? For what? Helping people? Haha, if you think you are in this to help people you haven't spent enough time in a hospital. Go be a missionary and help people, dont put yourself in debt and have no life other than the BS of medicine

Anyone on here who knows what they are talking about will tell you 10% of thier day is medicine. If 90% of my day was medicine I would say it isnt that bad. But its not and its only getting worse.

I don't care if I spend the rest of my life paying off my debt, I wont be an indentured servent to the field of medicine.

I really wish I could go on a speaking tour telling premed kids to get this idea of being a doctor out of thier head now and don't do it. I would be helping more people that way than I do now.

Premeds who are reading this: DONT DO IT, GET OUT NOW

 

[danielmd06]

Sheesh dude. I've got to respond to these comments in the interest of balance.

This profession sucks and its only getting worse. No one can say with a straight face medicine will be better in 5 years, 10 years. I look at attendings busting their rear for what? Working weekends? Holidays? For what? Helping people?

It all depends on why you did this to begin with. From my perspective, medicine is perfectly great and is not "getting worse." In terms of working extra hours? How many people in positions of authority and responsibility do the same? It comes with the turf. And of course we help people.

Anyone on here who knows what they are talking about will tell you 10% of thier day is medicine. If 90% of my day was medicine I would say it isnt that bad. But its not and its only getting worse.

You are in your intern year in an unspecified specialty. You are at the very lowest point in the entire process. The worst of the worst. It only gets better from here on out. Don't get disheartened with only what you see and do this year. It gets so much better you can't imagine. And 90-95% of my workday is pure medicine/reading/clinic/teaching etc. 5-10% is paperwork. No exaggeration.

I really wish I could go on a speaking tour telling premed kids to get this idea of being a doctor out of thier head now and don't do it. I would be helping more people that way than I do now.

Please see the above. You are at a low point career-wise. Best wishes regardless of your choice to stay in medicine or leave.

Premeds who are reading this: DONT DO IT, GET OUT NOW

To which I reply to premeds who are reading this: Be smart, research this career option with all its positives and negatives, talk to everyone from every specialty you can in medicine for a great variety of different opinions, and synthesize all of this information together to make an informed choice.

It's your life. You've should be happy. You have to educate yourself to make the best decisions you can.

 

[wallstdoc]

I definitely appreciate some balance, but I think being a fellow you are a little bias too. Yes, you put in a ton of hours and work hard, but you don't have to deal with a lot of the BS that an attending deals with. Ask any surgery attending and they will tell you the most surgery they ever did was during fellowship.

I understand that intern year is the worst year, but its not the hours and scut work of an intern that has me so turned off. That stuff is expected and, yes, will get better. But if you aren't at a teaching hospital guess who is doing all the BS the intern does, YOU ARE. The attending. Admissions, dictations, calls, its crap. But the day to day of a doctor, what a disaster medicine has become in this country.

Lots of surgeons don't do surgery anymore because the reimbursement is so low its not even worth it. $250 professional fee for an open inguinal hernia repair. I pay my mechanic more than that to fix my car and he dropped out of highschool. Cardiology consults cut 40% last year. Colonoscopies cut in half in the last 10 years. CT surgeons make half of what they use to. They are working on beating hearts for crying out loud. Its only getting worse folks.

And premed kids, please talk to doctors. And read between the lines. There aren't many doctors that will flat out tell a bushy-tailed kid "don't do it." They will say "are you sure you want to do go to medical school?" That means don't do it. Doctors told me don't do it, and I didn't listen. I thought, how bad can it be? You are respected, you live in a nice house, drive a nice car. Wow, is it worse than I ever imagined. And I am not talking about intern stuff. I felt this way middle of 3rd year, but again, just pushed on.

I think a lot of people are blind to how bad medicine really is because they have either never done anything else and thus have no perspective, or they never step back and really look at what their life has become.

Keep this in mind: 4yrs of medical school + 3 yrs residency + 3 yrs fellowship + 250k in debt = 10 years before you get a paycheck ( a real paycheck, not some lowsy primary care salary). And that is 10 years of barely having a life outside of a hospital. 10 years!!!! And then you are still the low man on the totem poll at a practice or whatever and have a ton of debt. Think about what you could have done with 250k over 10 years!

I really don't want to be the debbie downer but I just wish someone really broke it down to me when I first thought about going into medicine. I think its one of those things you really cant appreciate until you do it.

 

[JackADeli]

I need to throw some balance here as well....

It is very, very unwise to take an interns recommendation to avoid medicine. There have actually been studies finding interns in large percentage of the total meet or exceed criteria for major clinical depression! As noted above, intern and junior years are often very, very hard.

As noted, things do get better as you go along. Maybe they will never meet unrealistic expectations. But, when you get in practice, with limited exception you do receive a significantly larger amount of income then you do as an intern. But, again, maybe not the unrealistic pot of gold you expect. When you go into practice, things are very, very different within the community then they are in the academic training setting. So, as others have noted, you need to be realistic and find out what the reality is outside of academia.

I strongly encourage individuals with utopian views of medicine and/or dreams of gazillion dollars not go into medicine. You will be unhappy and claim "unfair", "injustice", "deception", and etc..... IMHO, individuals need to be mature adults, eyes open, and realistic if choosing the longer pathway to medicine.

 

[476515678234896]

I need to throw some balance here as well....

It is very, very unwise to take an interns recommendation to avoid medicine. There have actually been studies finding interns in large percentage of the total meet or exceed criteria for major clinical depression! As noted above, intern and junior years are often very, very hard.

As noted, things do get better as you go along. Maybe they will never meet unrealistic expectations. But, when you get in practice, with limited exception you do receive a significantly larger amount of income then you do as an intern. But, again, maybe not the unrealistic pot of gold you expect. When you go into practice, things are very, very different within the community then they are in the academic training setting. So, as others have noted, you need to be realistic and find out what the reality is outside of academia.

I strongly encourage individuals with utopian views of medicine and/or dreams of gazillion dollars not go into medicine. You will be unhappy and claim "unfair", "injustice", "deception", and etc..... IMHO, individuals need to be mature adults, eyes open, and realistic if choosing the longer pathway to medicine.

It is very, very unwise to take an interns recommendation to avoid medicine. There have actually been studies finding interns in large percentage of the total meet or exceed criteria for major clinical depression! As noted above, intern and junior years are often very, very hard.

individuals need to be mature adults, eyes open, and realistic if choosing the longer pathway to medicine.

I'm not really clear on why their advice should be discounted just because they are in the toughest (and most important) part of their training and more likely to be vocal about it. Being miserable for 3-7 years of your life should play a role in how undergraduates view the profession. How am I supposed to get a "realistic view" of what medicine is if I discount interns and residents who are experiencing the reality of medicine now?

If a large percentage of interns are clinically depressed (which is pretty reprehensible) undergraduates should be influenced in their decision to apply to medical schools and to peruse medicine.

After reading posts and talking to interns and residents I ask myself, why would I want to put myself through the **** that they go through every day? I don't even sleep 80 hours a week (almost 50% of the week), how will I work for that long? do I want to spend the rest of my 20's and 30's doing something that I might actually hate?

The fact that they are going through the toughest time in a physicians training should be reason enough to take their words seriously (albeit cautiously).
I would want to know if the light at the end of the tunnel isn't all it's cracked up to be.

 

[JackADeli]

...How am I supposed to get a "realistic view" of what medicine is if I discount interns and residents who are experiencing the reality of medicine now?

I would want to know if the light at the end of the tunnel isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Yes, you should have a realistic idea of the rigors of training too. If I wanted to be an airborne ranger, green beret, navy seal, I would not ask the trainee that is contemplating quitting if the life of a full fledged practicing special-ops soldier was worth the training. With few exceptions, an intern does not know what the light at the end of the tunnel really is. In just about every program I have spoken with residents, the vast majority report wanting to quit at least a few times during internship..."because it's not worth it". Being a practicing attending is very different then being the scut-monkey intern.

...I ask myself, why would I want to put myself through the **** that they go through every day? I don't even sleep 80 hours a week (almost 50% of the week), how will I work for that long? do I want to spend the rest of my 20's and 30's doing something that I might actually hate? ...

Those are valid questions that only each individual can answer for themselves. It is important to try and get a realistic idea about what the light is at the end of the tunnel. Training can be very tough. If you do not want to commit to those sacrifices you shouldn't go into medicine.

 

[sd37]

*deleted*

 

[JackADeli]

...Sacrifice is worthwhile to me if it ultimately leads to satisfaction, but not if it leads to disillusionment...

The key is to further explore the realities of practice after training. Realistic expectations do not generally result in disillusionment. Idealism and utopian expectations +/- sense of entitlement often does result in disillusionment.

A career as practicing physician is work [within a service industry]. It is not , "Here is my degree, now show me the money". A physician earns income through their practice and sound business model partly enabled through their degree/s. You will be disillusioned if you develop a conflicting mindset that you should get paid but "it's not about the money" or "money isn't important".

A career as practicing physician is work. It is not, "Here is my degree, now show me the respect". A physician earns patients' and community respect through their practice not through their degree/s.

...I'm wondering if I could get most of what I'm looking for (applying a scientific mind to patient care, with lifelong learning) as a PA instead, sooner and with far less debt and angst. I like that PA's appear to be educated in a medical model ...PA programs look a lot to me like the first 3 years of medical school. ...I worry about how competent I would ultimately be. I can see that my relationship with the physician(s) I would work for would be critical. Also, would the ultimate work be significantly less intellectually stimulating for me than being an MD?...

Only you can decide what you want and if the program/path of study will lead to that goal. If you go to a good PA school, apply yourself, you should have no trouble becoming a competent PA. But, there is no short cut to being a physician. You are either a PA or a Physician.

The celing of restrictions are lower for a PA so your scope and clinical opportunities/options will be less in numerous things. Does this mean less intellectual stimulation to you? Again, only you can decide. But, you need to understand, a choice needs to be made. Do you want to be an EMT, a nurse, a NP, a PA, a MD/DO? In each of those, I hear individuals talking about "similarities" and shorter paths to being "almost like a...". If you go the route of MD/DO, you will have to decide on residency/specialty. Again, I hear plenty of rationalizing of specialty "x" does OB or surgery or etc.... and is "almsot like..." or "the same thing as ...." but a shorter or easier path. Those are the thought processes that brings disillusionment. There is no short-cut in any of these.

You either are "x" or you are not. Do not get seduced into thinking about being ~pseudo something because, "we do the same thing....".

 

[476515678234896]

As an attending, is it possible to work 40-50 hours a week, take a manageable amount of call, and still make $150 - $200,000?

(excluding very competitive specialties)

 

[danielmd06]

As an attending, is it possible to work 40-50 hours a week, take a manageable amount of call, and still make $150 - $200,000?

(excluding very competitive specialties)

That's a fair question. But a fair answer is...

If that's really all you care about, then my serious advice would be to pursue something like dental school or another professional school. When push comes to shove, you can make that amount of money you mention for alot less work than medical school or residency (in any specialty) will demand.

But to be honest, it's absolutely possible. Even without being competitive. There are scores of jobs in medicine that will acommodate what you're looking for. I'm sure that others can comment with much more experience than myself about this.

I was admittedly more competitive than most, but I wouldn't consider myself competitive for something like dermatology or plastic/reconstuctive surgery. "Very competitive" specialities as you say.

I'm personally looking at jobs this year and am not considering anything even remotely close to the money or hours you cite.

By which I mean more money and less hours.

If you want to know more you can PM me.

 

[JackADeli]

As an attending, is it possible to work 40-50 hours a week, take a manageable amount of call, and still make $150 - $200,000?...

...to be honest, it's absolutely possible. Even without being competitive. There are scores of jobs in medicine that will acommodate what you're looking for. I'm sure that others can comment with much more experience than myself about this...

Yes. I know FMs that moonlight for ERs through staffing companies on weekends and earn $250k/yr for the moonlighting. Generally leaves them Mon-Thursday off.

Much will depend on location and what you choose to do....

 

[FutureDoctor317]

Yes. I know FMs that moonlight for ERs through staffing companies on weekends and earn $250k/yr for the moonlighting. Generally leaves them Mon-Thursday off.

Much will depend on location and what you choose to do....

That can't be true. You're joking right?

 

[alwaysaangel]

That can't be true. You're joking right?

He's probably not joking. I know a Peds EM doc in a community hospital who works Fri, Sat and Sun night and pulls 350k. Her kids didn't even realize she worked until she came home late one day and they saw her wearing scrubs.

I would however guess that the FM docs he knows are working in less desirable areas because as there are more EM trained docs there are fewer opportunities for other docs to work in EDs. Its certainly not something future FM docs can count on as EM docs are pushing for only board-certified, EM trained physicians to staff EDs.

 

[JackADeli]

That can't be true. You're joking right?

He's probably not joking. I know a Peds EM doc in a community hospital who works Fri, Sat and Sun night and pulls 350k...

No joke.

...Its certainly not something future FM docs can count on as EM docs are pushing for only board-certified, EM trained physicians to staff EDs.

Probably not true.
There are thousands and thousands of hospitals accross this country that need emergency staffing. PAs are serving in some ERs as ~"attendings" accross this country. At the same time, accross all fields, there are thousands and thousands of residency grads unwilling to work in most of the continental USA. Just look at a USA population map. It is easy to see where there is population density and not. Plenty of places to work. They just aren't all SanFran, Pasadena, NY, Miami, Chicago....

 

[CambieMD]

I havent posted on here in years, but I just thought I would post my two cents.

I left my job on wall st to go to medical and was THE WORST DECISION OF MY LIFE. I would have quit the middle of 3rd year but finished out med school with the "why stop now"mentality. I am now in internship and have decided I am done after this year. Done with clinical medicine. There really are not many jobs out there that are worse than being a doctor. And for those in med school or are premed, and you say you would do it again... you aren't done yet? How can you say that.

This profession sucks and its only getting worse. No one can say with a straight face medicine will be better in 5 years, 10 years. I look at attendings busting their rear for what? Working weekends? Holidays? For what? Helping people? Haha, if you think you are in this to help people you haven't spent enough time in a hospital. Go be a missionary and help people, dont put yourself in debt and have no life other than the BS of medicine

Anyone on here who knows what they are talking about will tell you 10% of thier day is medicine. If 90% of my day was medicine I would say it isnt that bad. But its not and its only getting worse.

I don't care if I spend the rest of my life paying off my debt, I wont be an indentured servent to the field of medicine.

I really wish I could go on a speaking tour telling premed kids to get this idea of being a doctor out of thier head now and don't do it. I would be helping more people that way than I do now.

Premeds who are reading this: DONT DO IT, GET OUT NOW

Medicine may not be for the op. That fact ,however does not mean that other individuals cannot enjoy a meaningful career in medicine.

The practice of medicine has changed over the years. No one can say what will happen in the next few years.

Physicians as a group will most likely continue to earn more than most people.Do not think that you will earn large sums of money as physicians. Do not enter medicine for the money. Find other reasons for becoming a physician.

The cost of becoming a physician is continuing to rise. I graduated from medical school 15 years ago. I still owe $$ on my med school loans.

Are you serious, do you really believe that being a physician is one of the worst jobs that someone can have. I will offer that some physicians may have be in a less than ideal practice environment. This applies to all careers out there.

A friend of mine is going through a nightmare divorce. I know of marriages where domestic abuse takes place. Does this mean that marriage is terrible. No, some marriages are terrible. Some individuals should not be married.The violent and controlling make poor marriage material. Like wise, medical school is not for eveyone. The issue is fit. Medicine is not a good fit for everyone out there.

I understand that couples may have difficulties because they are a poor fit. You may be in the wrong institution or specialty. Or, you may be in the wrong profession.

Medicine may be wrong for you but it is obsurd for you to conclude that medicine is not for anyone else and that all of the premeds out there should flee.

I have long days at times. Last Friday I had a 14 hour day. I received a call @ 0315 on Friday morning. I went back to sleep and my alarm clock went off @ 0515. I left the hospital @ 1950. This is not a typical day for me but this happens @ times. Tomorrow I am on short call. I will probably work @ least 12 hrs. On Thursday I will have overnight call in-house. This is what I signed up for and I enjoy what I do. Would I like to make more money? Of course I would but look at the economy. For those always crying about money. Where is the higher reimbursement you want going to come from.

I take pride in giving good care to my patients. Few things can bring you the rush that you get from easing the suffering of anothe human.

To the jaded and angry.Medicine may not be for you but that doesn't mean that it is all bad. Medicine is still a noble profession.

I said this onece before. One of the largest threats to medicine is jaded cynical physicians. They can be rude to patients and act like their patients are an imposition.

Cambie

 

[JackADeli]

...The cost of becoming a physician is contunuing to rise. I graduated from medical school 15 years ago. I still owe $$ on my med school loans...

As I believe many physicians choose to pay their loans over a decade or more. But, I think it is important for individuals to understand it is often a choice. Not citing you or what your particular circumstances may be, but most I know, upon graduating go rapidly from a reasonable priced apartment with a reliable, albeit not new car, and immediately start to finance homes, cars, vacations, etc... That is fine. But, I think still paying one's student loans over "x" years needs to be understood by med-students in context. My financial advisor has advised I pay over years and use my current earnings for investments along the way. However, I could conceivably increase my standard of living only a little and still focus on these loans and pay them in maybe 5 or less years.

...Physicians as a group will most likely contunue to earn more than most people...

...some physicians may have be in a less than ideal practice environment. This applies to all careers out there.

...I know marriages where domestic abuse takes place. Does this mean that marriage is terrible. No, some marriages are terrible. Some individuals should not be married. Like wise medical school is not for eveyone. The issue is fit. Medicine is not a good fit for everyone out there.

...Medicine may be wrong for you but it is obsurd for you to conclude that medicine is not for anyone else and that all of the premeds out there should flee.

...Would I like to make more money? Of course I would but look at the economy. For those always crying about money. Where is the higher reimbursement you want going to come from...

Someone may have left a good career at wall street, great! But, there are large numbers of currently unemployed wallstreet folks and bankers. I don't know any qualified FM physician that stays unemployed for any period of time without choosing to do so. i.e. don't want to relocate, etc....

 

[MCAT guy]

The argument for dentistry on this thread is appalling. So people regret choosing medicine as a career because there are easier ways to earn money?

So far I've heard from the complaining group:

• You acquire a lot of debt
• You have to work hard and long hours
• There are easier ways to earn money
• Our pay is going down

Were the first two a surprise?

As for the money, didn't everyone tell you not to go into medicine for money? I've heard the advice ad nauseam. When you talk about money mostly in your anti-medicine post, it shows where your heart was.

You guys knew the cost when you signed up.

Also, forums like these attract introspective pity-party essays like moths to a flame. There are plenty of happy and satisfied doctors out there. They don't waste time on the internet staring at their navels and contemplating how much better things could be if only **insert naive dream scenario** had occurred.

 

[MCAT guy]

To those that think they have so much to complain about:

You were born into the richest country in the richest time in history. Your standard of living is magnitudes higher than anyone on planet earth in history. Your income is higher than 97% of Americans, and 99.9% of people on earth. Your work conditions, although difficult, are easier than what some 12 year olds worked during the industrial age (6 days a week / 14 hour days). I wonder what types of "my life sucks" essays those kids could have shared with us.

Wait, that was then right? Nope. It's worse today for some:

India is home to 447 million children. The largest population of children in the world. 60 million of them, however, do not know what a childhood is!

They are forced to work 18 hours a day, 7 days a week in dismal conditions in the Arts & Crafts Industries of India.

5 hundred thousand children are exposed to toxic fumes of leading the ceramics industry and don't even make it to their teens.

So yeah, I know, we are a special group. These human beings lives shouldn't be factored into "possible" for us. We should get paid more than them and have to work less because we're in America. Can't compare their situations to ours because we are special and different, and we studied, and we have debt...


Get some perspective people. Seriously.


Below is an interesting article from Forbes. The worst jobs in 2010. This is good for all the complainers out there. I know you put in a quarter million in debt and studied hard, blah blah blah, while completing a residency. So we can't compare your job to Joe Blow who didn't graduate high school (oops, I just did it anyway).

Let's be honest, your job today earning 100k, 200k, 300k or whatever is much better than a guy who does manual labor and earns 30k per year.

All of you with no time should have taken a 70k part time FP route. You chose your specialty. You chose your career. Stop complaining or get out of the career.

Forbes Worst Jobs in 2010

Roustabout

Performs routine physical labor and maintenance on oil rigs and pipelines, both onshore and offshore.

Physical demands: 36.89
Stress: 65.548
Median income: $31,133
Hiring outlook: -6.17

Lumberjack

Fells, cuts and transports timber to be processed into lumber, paper and other wood products.

Physical demands: 38.87
Stress: 67.603
Median income: $32,114
Hiring outlook: -2.36

Ironworker

Raises the steel framework of buildings, bridges and other structures.

Physical demands: 36.85
Stress: 50.911
Median income: $32,123
Hiring outlook: 5.73

Dairy Farmer

Directs and takes part in activities involved in the raising of cattle for milk production.

Physical demands: 30.53
Stress: 64.509
Median income: $32,114
Hiring outlook: 8.14

Welder

Joins or repairs metal surfaces through the application of heat.

Physical demands: 29.08
Stress: 47.660
Median income: $34,122
Hiring outlook: 3.72

Garbage Collector

Collects refuse on a designated municipal route, and transports trash to disposal plants or landfill areas.

Physical demands: 36.55
Stress: 42.760
Median income: $31,183
Hiring outlook: 6.83

Taxi Driver

Operates a taxicab over the streets and roads of a municipality, picking up and dropping off passengers by request.

Physical demands: 14.46
Stress: 100.491
Median income: $22,113
Hiring outlook: 12.13


Construction Worker

Assists construction trade workers by performing a wide variety of tasks requiring physical labor.

Physical demands: 36.41
Stress: 47.306
Median income: $29,200
Hiring outlook: 10.50


Meter Reader

Monitors public utility meters and records volume of consumption by customers.

Physical demands: 25.67
Stress: 37.940
Median income: $33,170
Hiring outlook: -10.30

 

[DoctwoB]

As I believe many physicians choose to pay their loans over a decade or more. But, I think it is important for individuals to understand it is often a choice. Not citing you or what your particular circumstances may be, but most I know, upon graduating go rapidly from a reasonable priced apartment with a reliable, albeit not new car, and immediately start to finance homes, cars, vacations, etc... That is fine. But, I think still paying one's student loans over "x" years needs to be understood by med-students in context. My financial advisor has advised I pay over years and use my current earnings for investments along the way. However, I could conceivably increase my standard of living only a little and still focus on these loans and pay them in maybe 5 or less years.

It depends on when you trained at what your interest rates are. People who graduated a while ago got sweetheart loans at 2%. Think of paying loans off as an investment, with a rate of return as the interest rate on the loans. At that rate, you can earn a lot more by making minimum payments and investing in stocks, bonds, or even, money market accounts.

All my loans (and anyone graduating with me), will be at 6.8%, which makes paying them off like finding a zero risk, 6.8% ROR investment, likely better than I would do with a low risk portfolio.

 

[michaelrack]

To those that think they have so much to complain about:

You were born into the richest country in the richest time in history. Your standard of living is magnitudes higher than anyone on planet earth in history. Your income is higher than 97% of Americans, and 99.9% of people on earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

I think 90-95% of americans would be a more accurate figure, although I could only find household not indiv data

 

[michaelrack]

As an attending, is it possible to work 40-50 hours a week, take a manageable amount of call, and still make $150 - $200,000?

(excluding very competitive specialties)

yes - in sleep and/or psychiatry

 

[Noroomforlogic]

Jesus this is a depressing display.

I might not do it again only in this sense. Ive done it. I had the med school and residency experience. It would bore me to do it again. Am I happy with my choice to do it the first time? Oh yes indeed. I am finishing up a residency in Emergency Medicine for persepective. I couldn't imagine how I could change jobs now that I know what its like to run a trauma code or medical code and direct a large team of people in what I think has to be the one of the most intense settings on earth. How could I go be a dentist or dermatologist? No offense to dentists and derm....but come on...my job is cool as **** sometimes! Yeah I sew up blood caked lips of alcoholic homeless people too. Thats no fun. But hell its the price of admission for the chance to push that tpa one hour, intubate and put in a central line and art line the next hour and then push some propofol and put a dislocated hip back in place the next. I love how my experience of the rest of the world has been changed by my job. I love how nothing i encounter outside the ER makes me nervous or scared short of a gun in my face. How stressed can I be with the mundacity of normal life after leaving the ER?

Im on the last of six 13 hour days in a row on a rotation where I work 24 "12 hour shifts" in 28 days, really they are 13-14 hours. My mood is still great!

Also, I owe 300k, but just signed a contract at nearly $200/hour. How is that not a great investment. Im not even 30 yet!

The money will be really nice. The hours will be as few as 35 a week, though im going to work 50/week just because Im young and single and ready to work. But more than anything I got to manually pump human hearts after thoracotomies. Ive grabbed needles as long as my forarm and relieved pericardial tamponade after diagnosing it. How the hell could I do anything else?

 

[476515678234896]

Jesus this is a depressing display.

I might not do it again only in this sense. Ive done it. I had the med school and residency experience. It would bore me to do it again. Am I happy with my choice to do it the first time? Oh yes indeed. I am finishing up a residency in Emergency Medicine for persepective. I couldn't imagine how I could change jobs now that I know what its like to run a trauma code or medical code and direct a large team of people in what I think has to be the one of the most intense settings on earth. How could I go be a dentist or dermatologist? No offense to dentists and derm....but come on...my job is cool as **** sometimes! Yeah I sew up blood caked lips of alcoholic homeless people too. Thats no fun. But hell its the price of admission for the chance to push that tpa one hour, intubate and put in a central line and art line the next hour and then push some propofol and put a dislocated hip back in place the next. I love how my experience of the rest of the world has been changed by my job. I love how nothing i encounter outside the ER makes me nervous or scared short of a gun in my face. How stressed can I be with the mundacity of normal life after leaving the ER?

Im on the last of six 13 hour days in a row on a rotation where I work 24 "12 hour shifts" in 28 days, really they are 13-14 hours. My mood is still great!

Also, I owe 300k, but just signed a contract at nearly $200/hour. How is that not a great investment. Im not even 30 yet!

The money will be really nice. The hours will be as few as 35 a week, though im going to work 50/week just because Im young and single and ready to work. But more than anything I got to manually pump human hearts after thoracotomies. Ive grabbed needles as long as my forarm and relieved pericardial tamponade after diagnosing it. How the hell could I do anything else?

this post kind of makes me regret choosing dentistry over medicine

 

[Noroomforlogic]

this post kind of makes me regret choosing dentistry over medicine

Well it's got to be your thing. I'm just lucky that I seem to have gotten myself into something that really is my thing. But do I think my thing is objectively better? Oh no. I could easily see how someone with a different personality could view my job as hell. So I don't mean to glamorize it. If I regret anything its that im going to be making a big income and I have no clue what to do with the money. I know just letting my consumption scale with my income is foolish. I know I could just save money in a bank or buy an index fund. What I really want is to own some asset that doesn't require me to put in daily hours to produce income. My regret is that I dont have the knowledge and experience to do that better than any of the career business people my venture would compete with.

 

[Pontifex Maximus]

Don't complain about medicine, you could be a garbage man.

 

[chocomorsel]

Sorry to join the negative band wagon, but If I could do it all over again, I certainly would not. I would likely have chosen pharmacy or dentistry instead. The thing that I wish I knew before coming into all the debt, abuse, sleep deprivation, etc. was that all your efforts could come to a halt if you attend a malignant residency program. Unlike pharmacy and dentistry, you can not choose to not go into a residency after completing medical school(if you want a job). So if you mistakenly get on the nerves of people in power at your residency program, anytime during your 3-7 year residency program, they can all agree to write false evaluations to make it appear like you kill patients each day, and that you should never be employed ever by anyone ever, not even as a garbage collector on the street. (And yes, their false words will ALWAYS carry more weight than any true ones that you may have) And all the while, while you remain unemployable, your huge medical school debt will continue to increase regardless of your ability to work or not. It's completely depressing. I wouldn't wish the field of medicine on my worst enemy. It's truly one of the most in-humane professions around.

Agreed as well. Too bad medicine is such a small community because really, it can be so high school.

 

[abcabc1]

The argument for dentistry on this thread is appalling. So people regret choosing medicine as a career because there are easier ways to earn money?

So far I've heard from the complaining group:

• You acquire a lot of debt
• You have to work hard and long hours
• There are easier ways to earn money
• Our pay is going down

Were the first two a surprise?

As for the money, didn't everyone tell you not to go into medicine for money? I've heard the advice ad nauseam. When you talk about money mostly in your anti-medicine post, it shows where your heart was.

You guys knew the cost when you signed up.

Also, forums like these attract introspective pity-party essays like moths to a flame. There are plenty of happy and satisfied doctors out there. They don't waste time on the internet staring at their navels and contemplating how much better things could be if only **insert naive dream scenario** had occurred.

Your points are valid and accurate.

That said, I'm not sure everyone who has turned sour on their experience in Medicine is engaging in a 'pity party.' In many cases, they knew these numbers and figures up front, but they're just numbers on a page or screen at that stage. When the loan repayments come due and the reimbursements decline and business costs rise in your face, it's different to know that these things will occur in the future.

I agree that those who went into Medicine to become rich and are now disappointed got what they deserve and shouldn't receive our sympathy. That said, it can be frustrating to become an attending and feel no more
well-off (or worse off) than you would had you stayed in a modest corporate job for 7-10 years (without the added debt).

 

[476515678234896]

I agree that those who went into Medicine to become rich and are now disappointed got what they deserve and shouldn't receive our sympathy.

Saying that people who go into medicine to get "rich" get what they deserve implies that they did something wrong. I think people want a stable, lucrative, career that can support them and their family.

It's a career, a job, one of the most selfish things you can do for yourself. Houses, cars, kids college tuition, rent, and grocery money doesn't just fall into your lap. Why is it such a bad thing that people expected to make money out of their work?

(I'm not being facetious, I'm just curious as to why you think they don't deserve your sympathy)

 

[avatarftw]

Does the nearly 200 dollars/hour include expenses like medical billing or whatever? Or is it all pre-tax?

If so, almost 200/hour is not that bad at all! Its not executive CEO or, sadly, Kim Kardashian money, but its solid.

Jesus this is a depressing display.

I might not do it again only in this sense. Ive done it. I had the med school and residency experience. It would bore me to do it again. Am I happy with my choice to do it the first time? Oh yes indeed. I am finishing up a residency in Emergency Medicine for persepective. I couldn't imagine how I could change jobs now that I know what its like to run a trauma code or medical code and direct a large team of people in what I think has to be the one of the most intense settings on earth. How could I go be a dentist or dermatologist? No offense to dentists and derm....but come on...my job is cool as **** sometimes! Yeah I sew up blood caked lips of alcoholic homeless people too. Thats no fun. But hell its the price of admission for the chance to push that tpa one hour, intubate and put in a central line and art line the next hour and then push some propofol and put a dislocated hip back in place the next. I love how my experience of the rest of the world has been changed by my job. I love how nothing i encounter outside the ER makes me nervous or scared short of a gun in my face. How stressed can I be with the mundacity of normal life after leaving the ER?

Im on the last of six 13 hour days in a row on a rotation where I work 24 "12 hour shifts" in 28 days, really they are 13-14 hours. My mood is still great!

Also, I owe 300k, but just signed a contract at nearly $200/hour. How is that not a great investment. Im not even 30 yet!

The money will be really nice. The hours will be as few as 35 a week, though im going to work 50/week just because Im young and single and ready to work. But more than anything I got to manually pump human hearts after thoracotomies. Ive grabbed needles as long as my forarm and relieved pericardial tamponade after diagnosing it. How the hell could I do anything else?

 

[odieoh]

I think its probably useful for the OP and anyone thinking of going into medicine to see the different reactions on here, but unfortunately in the end no one can really say whether medicine is right for them until they have done it. There is just no way to get an accurate picture of what it is like until you've been there and done the hours and put up with the BS and experienced the joys of it. I'm only starting out but I think I'm already on the jaded side. Honestly I'm not sure if I would do it over again. There are good days and bad days and for me it feels like there are more bad days. Definitely things are not as I imagined when I was applying to and starting med school.

I gave a bit of a description of one of the bad days a while back on the ophtho forum, maybe it will give the OP some perspective of some of the downsides of medicine. Some of the stuff is specific to ophtho but most I'm sure is universal to medicine:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=796697

 

[JackADeli]

...It's a career, a job, one of the most selfish things you can do for yourself. ...Why is it such a bad thing that people expected to make money out of their work?...

I don't find it particularly anymore "selfish" then any other career. We train for the job.

Saying that people who go into medicine to get "rich" get what they deserve implies that they did something wrong. I think people want a stable, lucrative, career that can support them and their family...

I agree. This is no more wrong then anyone else training for and ultimately enterring a high pressure, high stakes, high risk, high pay career. We exchange years of training and years of long hours of work for good if not extravagant compensation. It is a mistake to keep confusing a medical career with voluntary charity work. It is our career, our job. Physicians would do well to avoid the conflicting position of "not about the money" and "I deserve to be paid well for all my sacrifices....".

 

[nitemagi]

I don't find it particularly anymore "selfish" then any other career. We train for the job. I agree. This is no more wrong then anyone else training for and ultimately enterring a high pressure, high stakes, high risk, high pay career. We exchange years of training and years of long hours of work for good if not extravagant compensation. It is a mistake to keep confusing a medical career with voluntary charity work. It is our career, our job. Physicians would do well to avoid the conflicting position of "not about the money" and "I deserve to be paid well for all my sacrifices....".

I would also raise the distinction between "paid well" and "rich," and the expectation for the former, rather than the latter.

 

[JackADeli]

I would also raise the distinction between "paid well" and "rich," and the expectation for the former, rather than the latter.

Sure. "rich" is just a catch word. According politicians, your rich if your income is over $250k/yr.... Frankly, it is 2011. I don't see that as "rich".

Still, in general, my position is that there is nothing wrong with striving for wealth as long as you do so honestly and ethically. You can earn $2-8 million/yr? Great! That is good for you. I see no problem with it. I am not going to now start apologizing for success or look down on others for their financial sucess. I think folks in all careers should strive to get paid as much as they can for their labors.....

 

[abcabc1]

Sure. "rich" is just a catch word. According politicians, your rich if your income is over $250k/yr.... Frankly, it is 2011. I don't see that as "rich".

Still, in general, my position is that there is nothing wrong with striving for wealth as long as you do so honestly and ethically. You can earn $2-8 million/yr? Great! That is good for you. I see no problem with it. I am not going to now start apologizing for success or look down on others for their financial sucess. I think folks in all careers should strive to get paid as much as they can for their labors.....

This is EXACTLY right. In 2011, a pre-tax income of $250K/annum is hardly 'rich.' Even at the current tax rates, you're still going to pay back a very large portion of that to the Government: federal income tax, FICA tax (2 parts, up to $110K or so), Medicare tax (2 parts, up to $110K or so), state income tax, local/country income tax, real estate tax (built into your rent, so you pay if you rent), auto registration fee, cell phone/internet/communications taxes, fuel taxes, sales tax and others. You're already > 50% at this stage.

Why not strive for a higher income if you can make it honestly? There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[476515678234896]

I think its probably useful for the OP and anyone thinking of going into medicine to see the different reactions on here, but unfortunately in the end no one can really say whether medicine is right for them until they have done it. There is just no way to get an accurate picture of what it is like until you've been there and done the hours and put up with the BS and experienced the joys of it. I'm only starting out but I think I'm already on the jaded side. Honestly I'm not sure if I would do it over again. There are good days and bad days and for me it feels like there are more bad days. Definitely things are not as I imagined when I was applying to and starting med school.

I gave a bit of a description of one of the bad days a while back on the ophtho forum, maybe it will give the OP some perspective of some of the downsides of medicine. Some of the stuff is specific to ophtho but most I'm sure is universal to medicine:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=796697

That was an interesting read. There wasn't much "joy" described in medicine however, it all seemed like a big pain.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Absolutely. I make almost $8000 a month as a resident. I live in an awesome place. My PGY2-4 call is q20. I rarely stay past 4pm. When I'm not relaxing at home on the weekends, I'm snorkeling over reefs through schools of fish or hiking up one of the mountain ranges here. My life is pretty damn good right now.

Now, had I been stupid enough to choose any other specialty ...

 

[muhali3]

Absolutely. I make almost $8000 a month as a resident. I live in an awesome place. My PGY2-4 call is q20. I rarely stay past 4pm. When I'm not relaxing at home on the weekends, I'm snorkeling over reefs through schools of fish or hiking up one of the mountain ranges here. My life is pretty damn good right now.

Now, had I been stupid enough to choose any other specialty ...

There are only a few specialties like that. Psychiatry, Pathology, and Dermatology. And those are not everyone's cup of tea.

 

[bigmike7104]

and em, pm and r, allergy, sleep medicine.

So far I've heard from the complaining group:

• You acquire a lot of debt
• You have to work hard and long hours
• There are easier ways to earn money
• Our pay is going down

Were the first two a surprise?

You guys knew the cost when you signed up

i could be wrong, but the impression i get on this forum is it's the actual practice of medicine like defensive medicine which you don't know enough about at first on top of those other things you mentioned.

 

[muhali3]

and em, pm and r, allergy, sleep medicine.





i could be wrong, but the impression i get on this forum is it's the actual practice of medicine like defensive medicine which you don't know enough about at first on top of those other things you mentioned.

Allergy and Sleep Med are fellowships so I wouldn't count them. I did forget about EM and PM&R though (although I'd consider EM high-stress despite the shift work). Might include Rad Onc too.