If you always hear that MD and DO are equal, then why...

[ahmede19]

...then why do DO schools have lower GPA and MCAT scores across the board? Why do many make the thought of applying to DO school seem like a less desirable option? I am NOT trying to troll, I just really want the cold hard facts. In all honesty, I probably would not be able to be accepted to an MD school anyway. I just want information.

thank you.

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[smsc2009]

It's very simple. Once upon a time the DO degree used to be drastically different than the MD degree. Now, they are essentially the same but the MD is more recognized. It's a simple fact. Any DO doctor I've gone to, on the door is says, Dr. X and any MD I go to has X, MD on the door and it's because of this that a lot of people choose MD over DO and use DO as a backup. Now, that's not saying that there are some who pick DO over MD because of school locations or for the simply fact that they truly like the osteopathic philosophy. I hope that makes sense.

 

[ahmede19]

k I would like some more posts because i dont really understand those big words, but thank you for your help!

 

[EyEnStein 07]

k I would like some more posts because i dont really understand those big words, but thank you for your help!

Google is your friend in that case.
Also keep in mind that DO is not even that well known reason being that there are far less DO schools than MD schools. Also the degrees work in different ways when it comes to going abroad. I believe that MD is recognized around the world whereas the DO is mostly US (something along these lines).

You should do some reading on the differences between Allopathic (MD) and Osteopathic (DO).

Also, not sure how good of an example this may be...but ill say it anyways.
Think about undergraduate Bachelor of Science and Bachelor of Arts Degrees.

It is VERY possible to get a BS in Physics as well as a BA in Physics. Guaranteed they both took the same amount of engineering
and mathematics courses , however in there schedule one may have been more broad ranged courses where as the other may have been heavy on something specific like research or a certain concentration. That goes to say that both degrees are VERY VERY similar, and there is no reason why someone with a BA in Physics cannot get the same job as someone with a BS in physics...its just that you probably havent heard of many people who get BA's in physics (though it exists)

 

[MilkmanAl]

It is VERY possible to get a BS in Physics as well as a BA in Physics. Guaranteed they both took the same amount of engineering
and mathematics courses...both degrees are VERY VERY similar

If other schools have requirements like UNC's, that's not even close to true. BA science degrees are considerably less rigorous than BS degrees and require as many as 4-5 fewer courses.

I believe that MD is recognized around the world whereas the DO is mostly US

Correct, as far as I'm aware.

I would like some more posts because i dont really understand those big words

I didn't see any particularly confusing "big words" in that post, but here's a very simplistic (and hence not all that accurate) redux: DO used to be the black sheep of medicine but isn't any longer. Also, relatively few people know about it.

 

[NickNaylor]

Also, aren't DOs usually at a disadvantage when applying to more competitive residencies? Or is this not the case any longer?

 

[Styria]

I believe that MD is recognized around the world whereas the DO is mostly US (something along these lines).

DO is accepted in lots of countries: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=107627

American MD degrees are NOT accepted everywhere, and really aren't in that many more countries versus the DOs.

 

[CoolWhipp]

If other schools have requirements like UNC's, that's not even close to true. BA science degrees are considerably less rigorous than BS degrees and require as many as 4-5 fewer courses....

Be aware that not all schools are like this. UC Berkeley offers solely BA degrees for all (if not most) biological science degrees. In this case, it is no indication of rigor.

 

[smsc2009]

DO is accepted in lots of countries: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=107627

American MD degrees are NOT accepted everywhere, and really aren't in that many more countries versus the DOs.

The DO scope of practice is limited out of any other country besides the US.

 

[Bacchus]

This page has a lot of misinformation, half-stories, and generalizations. OP, you NEED to read the Pre-Medical Osteopathic FAQ available in that forum.

DO is accepted in more countries than the Caribbean MD.
DO averages tend to be lower because more non-traditional students choose the DO route because the process isn't as "numbers driven."
DOs have their own specialties, but continue to infiltrate the allopathic residencies.
Like MD schools, some DO schools are less well known than others. Education varies amongst schools.

Being a DO in the US will not destroy your life. Go read the FAQ, its all you need to know (plus some).

 

[EyEnStein 07]

If other schools have requirements like UNC's, that's not even close to true. BA science degrees are considerably less rigorous than BS degrees and require as many as 4-5 fewer courses.

4-5 fewer courses in what respect? Engineering? If so...what difference does it make? A girl from my school last year (physics major BA) is actually going to a PhD Physics program at UNC Chapel Hill. Clearly it doesnt make a difference to a school like UNC. But again correct me where/if i am wrong.

Also would you mind showing me the information? 4-5 seems alot unless the BS students are fulfilling requirements for graduate (masters) level physics such as quantum mechanics or solid state just as examples.

But besides that yes it may be different in some areas but BA or BS in physics...none of them are getting that degree without taking Differential Equations and Intermediate Mechanics, Electricity Magnetism, Thermodynamics, as far as i know.

So just trying to say that though MD and DO have their differences doesn't mean they are worlds apart from each other.
Also out of curiosity (since i dont know) do MD's and DO's take the same amount, level, type of classes? For comparisons sake would an MD be taking 4-5 classes MORE than a DO?

BA science degrees are considerably less rigorous than BS degrees

Is it less? yeah probably but considerably? i dont think i can agree with this. Again this depends on subject and where you get your degree. For example...there are some schools that ONLY offer BA degrees for science classes. Does that mean that the courses are going to be more lenient? probably not because that is the only type of degree they have. My school has only BA degrees for science (liberal arts school) and with physics, and engineering concentration..i can tell you that we have to take similar courses to that required of UNC BS.

Take a look at this: http://www.physics.qc.edu/physics_major_sequence.htm
At this school offering both BA and BS...the core requirements differ by 1 single course. With elective and math requirements being the same.

 

[greatnt249]

Also out of curiosity (since i dont know) do MD's and DO's take the same amount, level, type of classes? For comparisons sake would an MD be taking 4-5 classes MORE than a DO?

No, they take the same exact courses with the exception of DO schools teaching OMM.

 

[ZeusonRoids]

...then why do DO schools have lower GPA and MCAT scores across the board? Why do many make the thought of applying to DO school seem like a less desirable option? I am NOT trying to troll, I just really want the cold hard facts. In all honesty, I probably would not be able to be accepted to an MD school anyway. I just want information.

thank you.

I will answer your question with a question.
Why do people go to Harvard Law school over Podunk U law school?

It is because an MD degree TYPICALLY will get you further than a DO degree...even though IN THEORY you could have the same job as someone with an MD degree.

It is like saying you play on the Los Angeles Clippers vs. Playing on the Los Angeles Lakers...Both have a shot at winning a title every year but it is very unlikely that the Clippers will ever win.

Okay...now everyone will start saying scenarios where a DO got into a great residency or whatev...but statistically speaking MDs will likely complete a better residency than a DO applying for one in the same speciality.

I am not trying to bash DOs at all, I am just trying to give this kid the info on why ALMOST NOBODY would give up an opportunity at an MD school to go to a DO school. (Although now "That guy" will tell me a story about someone who did...but I will bet he made that choice primarily based on location.)

 

[MilkmanAl]

4-5 fewer courses in what respect? Engineering? If so...what difference does it make?

That's quite a lot of upper-level education. I'd venture to say it makes a huge difference.

For the record, a BS in physics at UNC requires 3 more classes than a BA. Additionally, the classes a BS requires are often considerably more rigorous than the BA. Most are upper-level math and physics courses, whereas the BA requires mostly mid-level classes. Similarly, a BS in biology requires 6 more classes than a BA, and many of the required BA courses are (or can be) easier.

Have a look here if it tickles your fancy. Maybe it's different at other schools, but the degrees are definitely noticeably different at Carolina.

That discussion is fairly irrelevant, though. I think Zeus summed it up pretty well:

It is because an MD degree TYPICALLY will get you further than a DO degree...even though IN THEORY you could have the same job as someone with an MD degree.

It should be noted, though, that DO's do the same things as MD's when they're actually working. Whether or not the two have similar prospects is another issue.

 

[Bacchus]

I will answer your question with a question.
Why do people go to Harvard Law school over Podunk U law school?

It is because an MD degree TYPICALLY will get you further than a DO degree...even though IN THEORY you could have the same job as someone with an MD degree.

It is like saying you play on the Los Angeles Clippers vs. Playing on the Los Angeles Lakers...Both have a shot at winning a title every year but it is very unlikely that the Clippers will ever win.

Okay...now everyone will start saying scenarios where a DO got into a great residency or whatev...but statistically speaking MDs will likely complete a better residency than a DO applying for one in the same speciality.

I am not trying to bash DOs at all, I am just trying to give this kid the info on why ALMOST NOBODY would give up an opportunity at an MD school to go to a DO school. (Although now "That guy" will tell me a story about someone who did...but I will bet he made that choice primarily based on location.)

I didn't interview at Jefferson. I'm 100% confident I will not be ill-afforded at PCOM.

 

[J ROD]

MD is more recognized and presumed to have more prestige. Plus, the MD helps more when it comes time to match for residencies.

In what you actually learn, there is really no difference. DO actually take an extra class on OMM (I believe thats the name of it).

Personally, where I am from, DOs are not that common and I do not want to explain myself to patients. In fact, I know several healthcare professionals that should know what a DO is tell me they dont.

Take MD if you get it, but dont be hell no DO I want go.

 

[EyEnStein 07]

That's quite a lot of upper-level education. I'd venture to say it makes a huge difference.

For the record, a BS in physics at UNC requires 3 more classes than a BA. Additionally, the classes a BS requires are often considerably more rigorous than the BA. Most are upper-level math and physics courses, whereas the BA requires mostly mid-level classes. Similarly, a BS in biology requires 6 more classes than a BA, and many of the required BA courses are (or can be) easier.

Have a look here if it tickles your fancy. Maybe it's different at other schools, but the degrees are definitely noticeably different at Carolina.

Agreed that this discussion is irrelevant for this thread..but hopefully my point was across in the similarity even though with our discussion it depends on where you go to school (as i proved in previous posts).

Plus, the MD helps more when it comes time to match for residencies.

Incase the OP doesnt already know....this is ONLY for MD residencies..and it barely makes a difference considering DO's have their own. They just have the added option of applying to an MD one, though from my knowledge it doesnt really make a difference.

Ending with this...at the end of the day why do you want to be Dr.X?
Is it because of two letters that will appear after your name?

I know a lot of people always say...DO's are unheard of, DO's are uncommon.....but does it not make sense to say that is true partly because each year more students graduate with MD's than DO's? We are taking about 126 MD schools in the US versus 25 DO schools.

 

[Chocolate Bear]

Check out the links in my sig if you are looking for more DO info. Still a lot of overgeneralizations in this thread being made by those who have probably never really looked into the situation and/or are basing their comments off of common SDN misconceptions.

Go shadow some docs, including some DOs, and you'll see what's up. And if you are wary of matching into a residency, check out the Match Lists in my sig, especially for older schools like PCOM, CCOM, TCOM, Western, but even the new schools like LECOM-B and some traditionally more "rural" schools have amazing match lists that include many "prestigious" or research-oriented institutions and "competitive" specialties.

 

[ZeusonRoids]

I didn't interview at Jefferson. I'm 100% confident I will not be ill-afforded at PCOM.

And I am sure that you will be honest and tell us why you went to a particular DO school over Jefferson (I am assuming you got an interview invite but did not go?)

I would assume that you either
A) liked the location better
B) knew a friend (or GF/BF) that got in or have some sort of personal affiliation with the school
C) the cost was very different.


I HIGHLY doubt that you did not choose to interview at Jefferson because you thought:
A) "I want to be a DO more than an MD"
B) "meh...I think PCOM is more prestigious than Jefferson"
C) "I will likely meet smarter peers at PCOM than at Jefferson"
D) "My ability to land the residency I want will increase if I go to PCOM"


Now...I am not saying that going the DO route is bad. Some of them end up working side by side with MDs. What I am saying is that it would be like a person wanting to play in the NFL who decided to go to a school that was not a Division I school when he had the opportunity to go to USC and win a National title and be more highly recognized and play at a higher level.


Same thing with undergrad schools. Why would anybody pass up a chance to go to harvard and instead go to a place like Podunk State U. (UNLESS they had one of those reasons I listed above: Cost, close to family/friends, personal connections with the school.

 

[MilkmanAl]

...or if they could rock Podunk State U. but "only" pull a 3.5 at Harvard.

 

[Bacchus]

PCOM and Jefferson are in the same city, within 10 minutes of each other by car. They both have excellent clinical opportunities. My Jefferson interview came late, I had deposited already for PCOM, so I decided to stay with my decision. We (PCOM) are equal to or greater than Jefferson. We have the research, location, history, recognition, technology, etc. to back up our claims of being as good as or better. All of the Philadelphia schools are excellent. PCOM is one of the most "MD-like" DO schools out there, our professors even admit this. We consistently do well on our boards and the majority of graduates specialize.

Now, do not discount my reasons for choosing PCOM. I am interested in OMM, I would not have learned that at Jefferson. Everyone here is very smart and to think otherwise, that my peers at Jefferson would have been smarter, is silly and condescending. I cannot comment on our residency match success and chances compared to the other schools in the area, but PCOM graduates don't complain. I will have no problem landing a residency that I want as long as I fulfill my end of the deal.

On an interesting note, the school contacts all of the rotation site directors each year asking for feedback via surveys and comments. We rank highly (Dr. Schure says the highest) in regards to rotating medical students. Now, that's probably fluffed, but I don't think too much higher than the truth.

Please research the profession more, you're discounting a lot of people that deserve more respect than you are giving them.

 

[gis2011]

...then why do DO schools have lower GPA and MCAT scores across the board? Why do many make the thought of applying to DO school seem like a less desirable option?

They have lower GPA and MCAT because they are less desirable schools to go to, therefore the best applicants with the higher numbers generally don't go there, while those left over (with lower numbers) end up in a DO school.

DO school seems like a less desirable option because, again generally speeking, going to a DO school will either close many doors for you as far as residency or make those doors harder to open...seeing as many students entering medical school are not interested in primary care fields and want to go to the best residency programs after graduation, MD is the natural choice (of course someone will point out a DO who got a neurosurgery or derm residency at an MD program somewhere, but I could also point out people who have gotten struck by lightning twice in their lives...it's not something you can count on happening realistically, and very few "top" (now MD) students are willing to take the risk of not ending up where they want to be after $X00,000 of debt and 8 years of school). Reasons are also social and historically based, DO is seen by many as being inferior (again, this probably has a lot to do with the differing admissions standards), but also quality (in terms of facilities, teachers, clinical training and sites to train at in 3rd year) of DO institutions varies widely (from some being downright laughable, to a few who are good)...MD schools in contrast on the whole generally do not have such a wide variation, and therefore again for a student with higher numbers, it represents a "safer" option knowing they can go to any of the MD schools w/o worrying as much, whereas with DO they'd have to be more careful about where they choose in order to satisfy their future desires.

This isn't sugar coating anything, so you should know what you're getting in to. All this said, DO's end up being just as much of a doctor as an MD graduate, but a lot comes down to retaining choice in deciding what kind of doctor you want to be/where you want to do residency. Add in the social stigma of it (and yes, there is some still), and many applicants who can get into MD schools have no reason to chose a DO one.

In your case, if you get into an MD, great...if DO is the way you go just know there will be some additional challenges/obstacles ahead of you, but if you work hard enough, these can be overcome to some extent (again though, don't go expecting Derm residency at Columbia or something)

 

[ZeusonRoids]

...or if they could rock Podunk State U. but "only" pull a 3.5 at Harvard.

Which would be more impressive to you as a school and as an employer.

Plus almost everyone at harvard does well...unless they drop out and become a billionaire lol

 

[ZeusonRoids]

They have lower GPA and MCAT because they are less desirable schools to go to, therefore the best applicants with the higher numbers generally don't go there, while those left over (with lower numbers) end up in a DO school.

DO school seems like a less desirable option because, again generally speeking, going to a DO school will either close many doors for you as far as residency or make those doors harder to open...seeing as many students entering medical school are not interested in primary care fields and want to go to the best residency programs after graduation, MD is the natural choice (of course someone will point out a DO who got a neurosurgery or derm residency at an MD program somewhere, but I could also point out people who have gotten struck by lightning twice in their lives...it's not something you can count on happening realistically, and very few "top" (now MD) students are willing to take the risk of not ending up where they want to be after $X00,000 of debt and 8 years of school). Reasons are also social and historically based, DO is seen by many as being inferior (again, this probably has a lot to do with the differing admissions standards), but also quality (in terms of facilities, teachers, clinical training and sites to train at in 3rd year) of DO institutions varies widely (from some being downright laughable, to a few who are good)...MD schools in contrast on the whole generally do not have such a wide variation, and therefore again for a student with higher numbers, it represents a "safer" option knowing they can go to any of the MD schools w/o worrying as much, whereas with DO they'd have to be more careful about where they choose in order to satisfy their future desires.

This isn't sugar coating anything, so you should know what you're getting in to. All this said, DO's end up being just as much of a doctor as an MD graduate, but a lot comes down to retaining choice in deciding what kind of doctor you want to be/where you want to do residency. Add in the social stigma of it (and yes, there is some still), and many applicants who can get into MD schools have no reason to chose a DO one.

In your case, if you get into an MD, great...if DO is the way you go just know there will be some additional challenges/obstacles ahead of you, but if you work hard enough, these can be overcome to some extent (again though, don't go expecting Derm residency at Columbia or something)

Well said...I might just post a link to this every time someone asks why MD is better than DO...or if they should do MD vs DO...or any other bull **** MD/DO question.

You would be stupid to pass up any MD school to go to a DO school

 

[Bacchus]

They have lower GPA and MCAT because they are less desirable schools to go to, therefore the best applicants with the higher numbers generally don't go there, while those left over (with lower numbers) end up in a DO school.

DO school seems like a less desirable option because, again generally speeking, going to a DO school will either close many doors for you as far as residency or make those doors harder to open...seeing as many students entering medical school are not interested in primary care fields and want to go to the best residency programs after graduation, MD is the natural choice (of course someone will point out a DO who got a neurosurgery or derm residency at an MD program somewhere, but I could also point out people who have gotten struck by lightning twice in their lives...it's not something you can count on happening realistically, and very few "top" (now MD) students are willing to take the risk of not ending up where they want to be after $X00,000 of debt and 8 years of school). Reasons are also social and historically based, DO is seen by many as being inferior (again, this probably has a lot to do with the differing admissions standards), but also quality (in terms of facilities, teachers, clinical training and sites to train at in 3rd year) of DO institutions varies widely (from some being downright laughable, to a few who are good)...MD schools in contrast on the whole generally do not have such a wide variation, and therefore again for a student with higher numbers, it represents a "safer" option knowing they can go to any of the MD schools w/o worrying as much, whereas with DO they'd have to be more careful about where they choose in order to satisfy their future desires.

This isn't sugar coating anything, so you should know what you're getting in to. All this said, DO's end up being just as much of a doctor as an MD graduate, but a lot comes down to retaining choice in deciding what kind of doctor you want to be/where you want to do residency. Add in the social stigma of it (and yes, there is some still), and many applicants who can get into MD schools have no reason to chose a DO one.

In your case, if you get into an MD, great...if DO is the way you go just know there will be some additional challenges/obstacles ahead of you, but if you work hard enough, these can be overcome to some extent (again though, don't go expecting Derm residency at Columbia or something)

This is worthless, but maybe it will demonstrate to some of you reading that we do get great residencies.

PCOM PHILADELPHIA Match List 2009
We are so proud of our graduates! Below is a list of locations where our 2009
PCOM graduates are training. Numbers in parenthesis indicate more than one
student matching into the program.

Anesthesiology
Hahnemann University-PA
Temple University Hospital
Thomas Jefferson University
UPMC Medical Education Program
Univ. Arkansas-Little Rock
Diagnostic Radiology
Henry Forde Macomb-Warren Campus
Mercy Catholic
Emergency Medicine
Baystate Medical Center-MA
Brooke Army Medical Center
Drexel University/Hahnemann University
Hospital
Geisinger Health System
LECOM/ Conemaugh Valley Memorial
Hospital
Madigan Army Medical Center
NYU School of Medicine
PCOM/Albert Einstein Medical Center (2)
PCOM/ Frankford Hospitals
St. Barnabas Health Care System
St. Joseph's Regional Medical Center
Temple University Hospital
Thomas Jefferson University
UMDNJSOM/Kennedy Memorial/University
Medical (3)
Emergency Medicine/ Internal Medicine
Ohio Valley Medical Center
York Hospital-PA
Family Medicine & Family Practice
Bryn Mawr Hospital (3)
Chino Valley Medical Center-CA
Eisenhower Army Medical Center-GA
Erlanger Medical Center-TN
LECOM/Washington Hospital
Martin Army Community Hospital
Mercy Suburban Hospital (2)
Naval Hospital (Jacksonville)
NSUCOM/ Saint Vincent's Medical Center
(2)
Family Medicine & Family Practice
NSUCOM/North Broward Hospital District
NYCOM/ Jamaica Hospital
PCOM/ Frankford Hospitals (3)
PCOM/Geisinger Health System
PCOM/ Latrobe Area Hospital
PCOM/ Lehigh Valley Hospital Health
Network (3)
PCOM/ Pinnacle Health General Hospital
PCOM/ Sacred Heart Hospital
PCOM/Saint Joseph Medical Center
PCOM/St. Luke's Hospital (2)
PCOM/UPMC Shadyside Hospital
PCOM/Williamsport Hospital (3)
Providence Hospital-DC
Tripler Army Medical Center
UMDNJSOM/Christ Hospital
UMDNJSOM/Kennedy Memorial/University
Medical (2)
UNECOM/University of Massachusetts
Wilson Memorial Regional Medical Center
(2)
University of Arizona
General Surgery
Berkshire Medical Center-MA
Christiana Care-DE (2)
Mercy Suburban Hospital
Naval Medical Center-Portsmouth
Naval Medical Center-San Diego
OUCOM/Grandview Hospital & Medical
Center
PCOM/Geisinger Health System (2)
PCOM/Philadelphia Consortium (5)
PCOM/ Pinnacle Health General Hospital
Pitt County Memorial Hospital/ Brody SOMNC
Temple University Hospital-PA
UPMC Horizon
Preliminary Surgery
Waterbury Hospital-CT
Preliminary Internal Medicine
PCOM/ Geisinger Health System (2)
Abington Memorial Hospital
Internal Medicine/ UIH
University Illinois COM – Chicago
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Christiana Care-DE (2)
Hershey Medical Center/Penn State – PA
Loyola University Med. Center – IL (2)
Internal Medicine
Banner Good Samaritan Medical Center-AZ
Brooke Army Medical Center
Case Western/MetroHealth Medical Center-
OH
Christiana Care-DE
Cleveland Clinic (2)
Crozer Chester Hospital
Crozer Chester Medical Center (3)
Drexel University/Hahnemann University
Hospital (4)
Georgetown University Hosp.-DC
Hahnemann University Hospital
Hershey Medical Center/Penn State
University-PA
Madigan Army Medical Center (Ft. Lewis)
Maine Medical Center
Mercy Catholic Medical Center (2)
Mercy Suburban Hospital (3)
Methodist Health System- Dallas
National Naval Medical Center-Bethesda
Northside Hospital and Heart Institute
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic
Medicine
PCOM/Abington Memorial Hospital (2)
PCOM/ Frankford Hospitals (2)
PCOM/ Geisinger Health System (4)
PCOM/ Lankenau Hospital
PCOM/ Pennsylvania Hospital
PCOM/ Philadelphia Consortium (4)
PCOM/Reading Hospital and Medical
Center
PCOM/ Pinnacle Health General Hospital
St. Luke's – Roosevelt – NY
St. Vincent's Hospital - NY
Temple University Hospital – PA (3)
Thomas Jefferson University- PA
UMDNJ/ Robert Wood Johnson
UMDNJ/ Kennedy Memorial/ University
Medical Center (3)
UPMC Mercy Hospital – PA (2)
Virginia Commonwealth Univ. Health
System
Walter Reed Army Medical Center
Washington Hospital Center
Wright Patterson Air Force Base
Internship
Crozer-Chester Medical Center (4)
Crozer-Keystone Health System
Delaware County/ Crozer-Keystone (6)
LECOM/ Western Pennsylvania Hospital (2)
Long Beach Medical Center
Madigan Army Medical Center (Ft. Lewis)
(2)
Mercy Catholic Medical-PA
Montgomery Regional Hospital
Naval Medical Center-Portsmouth
NYCOM/Long Beach Med. Center
Nassau University Medical Center
NYCOM/Maimonides Medical Center
NYCOM/Nassau Univ. Med. Center
NYCOM/Peninsula Hosp. Center
PCOM/ Abington Memorial Hospital (3)
PCOM/ Albert Einstein Medical Center (3)
PCOM/ Frankford Hospitals (3)
PCOM/ Christiana Care Riverside
PCOM/ Lankenau Hospital (4)
PCOM/ Lehigh Valley Hosp. Health Net (7)
PCOM/ Saint Joseph Med. Center
PCOM/ UPMC Shadyside (2)
St. John's Episcopal Hosp.-NY
St. Joseph's Hospital NPHS (7)
St. Luke's Hospital- Allentown (2)
Tripler Army Medical Center-HI
UMDNJ/ Kennedy Memorial/ University
Medical Center
University Hospitals Richmond Medical
Center
UPMC Mercy (2)
UPMC Pittsburgh
Walter Reed Army Medical Center (2)
Neurology
Drexel University/Hahnemann University
Hospital-PA
Walter Reed Army Medical Center
Neurological Surgery
PCOM/Philadelphia Consortium (2)
Obstetrics & Gynecology
Baystate Medical Center – MA
Lankenau Hospital – PA
Mercy Suburban Hospital
PCOM/Lourdes Medical Center Burlington
(2)
Reading Hospital Medical Center – PA
Rush University Med. Center – IL
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson – Camden
York Hospital - PA
Ophthalmology
MSUCOM/Hillsdale Community Health
Center
Orthopedic Surgery
Memorial Hospital-PA
NSUCOM/North Broward Hospital District
PCOM/ Philadelphia Consortium (3)
PCOM/ Pinnacle Health General Hospital
(2)
UMDNJ/ Kennedy Memorial/ University
Medical Center
University Hospitals Richmond Medical
Center
Oto-Facial Plastic Surgery
PCOM/Philadelphia Consortium
Pathology
Drexel University/Hahnemann University
Hospital
Pennsylvania Hospital
Pediatrics
Albert Einstein Medical Center
Hershey Med. Center/Penn State – PA (2)
INOVA Fairfax Hospital
Nationwide Children's Hospital - OH
Orlando Health Regional Healthcare - FL
PCOM/Geisinger Health System (3)
St. Christopher's Hospital-PA (2)
SUNY HSC Brooklyn-NY
Thomas Jefferson University/ DuPont
Children's Hospital (4)
UMDNJ/ Robert Wood Johnson-
Piscataway-NJ
UMDNJSOM/Children's Hospital - Cooper
Walter Reed Army Medical
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
Walter Reed Army Hospital-DC
Temple University –PA (4)
Jefferson Hospital-PA (2)
University Pittsburgh Medical Center
Psychiatry
Albany Medical Center Hospital
Allegheny General Hospital – PA
Drexel University/Hahnemann University
Hospital
St. Vincent's Hospital
UMDNJ/ Kennedy Memorial/ University
Medical Center
Walter Reed Army Medical

 

[nlax30]

Good Lord there is a lot of personal generalizations, theories, and misinformation in here.

Listen, with the exception of OMM, both DO and MD schools are going to cover the same basic sciences so no difference there.

The only point I'll even sort of concede to is that it may be a little tougher to match and some competitive residencies compared to a US MD grad applying to that same spot. I'll preface that by saying that there are a LOT of factors that residency programs look for in applicants, and unless that program just outright doesn't consider DOs for whatever reason then anyone who says "technically speaking" or "statistically...." is just going by their personal opinion or those of others they've heard.

The other thing I usually here is "all other things being equal among two applicants the MD will get it...." Well, first of all that's pretty much just a hypothetical situation since there are MANY factors that are looked at, not the least of which is the applicant's personality and work ethic (try finding two applicants equal in that department alone). I am sure that there are programs that are like that and that's their decision, it certainly isn't all of them, and it certainly isn't just "ivy league" programs.

Point is, those highly competitive residencies are competitive for EVERYONE, not just for a DO applying for a competitive allopathic spot. When you get to that level you really can't make ANY generalizations, it's going to be a case-by-case, program-by-program basis. And as far as I know there are no records/data/statistics detailed enough that allows us to make any inferences more specific than that in regards to DO and MD applying to specific locations.

Someone else said:

Some of them end up working side by side with MDs

What?? Not really sure what you mean there. I'd be willing to say that EVERY DO works side by side with MDs. Every MD and DO in the US is a fully licensed physician and both work together, it's not like there's a major and minor league.

What I am saying is that it would be like a person wanting to play in the NFL who decided to go to a school that was not a Division I school when he had the opportunity to go to USC and win a National title and be more highly recognized and play at a higher level.

And that really is not a good example at all. When you graduate from medical school and go through residency you are a fully licensed physician here in the US. It's not like becoming a practicing physician depends upon which school you went to or only certain graduates are "drafted" to become physicians. Not really sure how else to explain it, just comparing totally different concepts.

Didn't want to make this long but just wanted to jump in on a few of the points here. I definitely don't pretend to know a lot and usually won't say anything unless I have fairly decent understanding of an issue and even then I try to point out when I just don't know sure or it it's my personal opinion.

But it's little posts like this are just annoying:

The DO scope of practice is limited out of any other country besides the US.

That's just plain wrong. Yet how many other pre-meds who read something like that are going to go look it for themselves? Even a 30 second google search will take you to the AOA's international site where it says there are currently around 45 countries where DOs enjoy unlimited practice rights.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Which would be more impressive to you as a school and as an employer.

Plus almost everyone at harvard does well...unless they drop out and become a billionaire lol

I would pick the Harvard guy. Med schools would pick the Podunk U. kid, probably because they know the Harvard guy will be a billionaire.

 

[gis2011]

This is worthless, but maybe it will demonstrate to some of you reading that we do get great residencies.

PCOM PHILADELPHIA Match List 2009
We are so proud of our graduates! Below is a list of locations where our 2009
PCOM graduates are training. Numbers in parenthesis indicate more than one
student matching into the program.

Anesthesiology
Hahnemann University-PA
Temple University Hospital
Thomas Jefferson University
UPMC Medical Education Program
Univ. Arkansas-Little Rock
Diagnostic Radiology
Henry Forde Macomb-Warren Campus
Mercy Catholic
Emergency Medicine
Baystate Medical Center-MA
Brooke Army Medical Center
Drexel University/Hahnemann University
Hospital
Geisinger Health System
LECOM/ Conemaugh Valley Memorial
Hospital
Madigan Army Medical Center
NYU School of Medicine
PCOM/Albert Einstein Medical Center (2)
PCOM/ Frankford Hospitals
St. Barnabas Health Care System
St. Joseph's Regional Medical Center
Temple University Hospital
Thomas Jefferson University
UMDNJSOM/Kennedy Memorial/University
Medical (3)
Emergency Medicine/ Internal Medicine
Ohio Valley Medical Center
York Hospital-PA
Family Medicine & Family Practice
Bryn Mawr Hospital (3)
Chino Valley Medical Center-CA
Eisenhower Army Medical Center-GA
Erlanger Medical Center-TN
LECOM/Washington Hospital
Martin Army Community Hospital
Mercy Suburban Hospital (2)
Naval Hospital (Jacksonville)
NSUCOM/ Saint Vincent's Medical Center
(2)
Family Medicine & Family Practice
NSUCOM/North Broward Hospital District
NYCOM/ Jamaica Hospital
PCOM/ Frankford Hospitals (3)
PCOM/Geisinger Health System
PCOM/ Latrobe Area Hospital
PCOM/ Lehigh Valley Hospital Health
Network (3)
PCOM/ Pinnacle Health General Hospital
PCOM/ Sacred Heart Hospital
PCOM/Saint Joseph Medical Center
PCOM/St. Luke's Hospital (2)
PCOM/UPMC Shadyside Hospital
PCOM/Williamsport Hospital (3)
Providence Hospital-DC
Tripler Army Medical Center
UMDNJSOM/Christ Hospital
UMDNJSOM/Kennedy Memorial/University
Medical (2)
UNECOM/University of Massachusetts
Wilson Memorial Regional Medical Center
(2)
University of Arizona
General Surgery
Berkshire Medical Center-MA
Christiana Care-DE (2)
Mercy Suburban Hospital
Naval Medical Center-Portsmouth
Naval Medical Center-San Diego
OUCOM/Grandview Hospital & Medical
Center
PCOM/Geisinger Health System (2)
PCOM/Philadelphia Consortium (5)
PCOM/ Pinnacle Health General Hospital
Pitt County Memorial Hospital/ Brody SOMNC
Temple University Hospital-PA
UPMC Horizon
Preliminary Surgery
Waterbury Hospital-CT
Preliminary Internal Medicine
PCOM/ Geisinger Health System (2)
Abington Memorial Hospital
Internal Medicine/ UIH
University Illinois COM – Chicago
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Christiana Care-DE (2)
Hershey Medical Center/Penn State – PA
Loyola University Med. Center – IL (2)
Internal Medicine
Banner Good Samaritan Medical Center-AZ
Brooke Army Medical Center
Case Western/MetroHealth Medical Center-
OH
Christiana Care-DE
Cleveland Clinic (2)
Crozer Chester Hospital
Crozer Chester Medical Center (3)
Drexel University/Hahnemann University
Hospital (4)
Georgetown University Hosp.-DC
Hahnemann University Hospital
Hershey Medical Center/Penn State
University-PA
Madigan Army Medical Center (Ft. Lewis)
Maine Medical Center
Mercy Catholic Medical Center (2)
Mercy Suburban Hospital (3)
Methodist Health System- Dallas
National Naval Medical Center-Bethesda
Northside Hospital and Heart Institute
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic
Medicine
PCOM/Abington Memorial Hospital (2)
PCOM/ Frankford Hospitals (2)
PCOM/ Geisinger Health System (4)
PCOM/ Lankenau Hospital
PCOM/ Pennsylvania Hospital
PCOM/ Philadelphia Consortium (4)
PCOM/Reading Hospital and Medical
Center
PCOM/ Pinnacle Health General Hospital
St. Luke's – Roosevelt – NY
St. Vincent's Hospital - NY
Temple University Hospital – PA (3)
Thomas Jefferson University- PA
UMDNJ/ Robert Wood Johnson
UMDNJ/ Kennedy Memorial/ University
Medical Center (3)
UPMC Mercy Hospital – PA (2)
Virginia Commonwealth Univ. Health
System
Walter Reed Army Medical Center
Washington Hospital Center
Wright Patterson Air Force Base
Internship
Crozer-Chester Medical Center (4)
Crozer-Keystone Health System
Delaware County/ Crozer-Keystone (6)
LECOM/ Western Pennsylvania Hospital (2)
Long Beach Medical Center
Madigan Army Medical Center (Ft. Lewis)
(2)
Mercy Catholic Medical-PA
Montgomery Regional Hospital
Naval Medical Center-Portsmouth
NYCOM/Long Beach Med. Center
Nassau University Medical Center
NYCOM/Maimonides Medical Center
NYCOM/Nassau Univ. Med. Center
NYCOM/Peninsula Hosp. Center
PCOM/ Abington Memorial Hospital (3)
PCOM/ Albert Einstein Medical Center (3)
PCOM/ Frankford Hospitals (3)
PCOM/ Christiana Care Riverside
PCOM/ Lankenau Hospital (4)
PCOM/ Lehigh Valley Hosp. Health Net (7)
PCOM/ Saint Joseph Med. Center
PCOM/ UPMC Shadyside (2)
St. John's Episcopal Hosp.-NY
St. Joseph's Hospital NPHS (7)
St. Luke's Hospital- Allentown (2)
Tripler Army Medical Center-HI
UMDNJ/ Kennedy Memorial/ University
Medical Center
University Hospitals Richmond Medical
Center
UPMC Mercy (2)
UPMC Pittsburgh
Walter Reed Army Medical Center (2)
Neurology
Drexel University/Hahnemann University
Hospital-PA
Walter Reed Army Medical Center
Neurological Surgery
PCOM/Philadelphia Consortium (2)
Obstetrics & Gynecology
Baystate Medical Center – MA
Lankenau Hospital – PA
Mercy Suburban Hospital
PCOM/Lourdes Medical Center Burlington
(2)
Reading Hospital Medical Center – PA
Rush University Med. Center – IL
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson – Camden
York Hospital - PA
Ophthalmology
MSUCOM/Hillsdale Community Health
Center
Orthopedic Surgery
Memorial Hospital-PA
NSUCOM/North Broward Hospital District
PCOM/ Philadelphia Consortium (3)
PCOM/ Pinnacle Health General Hospital
(2)
UMDNJ/ Kennedy Memorial/ University
Medical Center
University Hospitals Richmond Medical
Center
Oto-Facial Plastic Surgery
PCOM/Philadelphia Consortium
Pathology
Drexel University/Hahnemann University
Hospital
Pennsylvania Hospital
Pediatrics
Albert Einstein Medical Center
Hershey Med. Center/Penn State – PA (2)
INOVA Fairfax Hospital
Nationwide Children's Hospital - OH
Orlando Health Regional Healthcare - FL
PCOM/Geisinger Health System (3)
St. Christopher's Hospital-PA (2)
SUNY HSC Brooklyn-NY
Thomas Jefferson University/ DuPont
Children's Hospital (4)
UMDNJ/ Robert Wood Johnson-
Piscataway-NJ
UMDNJSOM/Children's Hospital - Cooper
Walter Reed Army Medical
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
Walter Reed Army Hospital-DC
Temple University –PA (4)
Jefferson Hospital-PA (2)
University Pittsburgh Medical Center
Psychiatry
Albany Medical Center Hospital
Allegheny General Hospital – PA
Drexel University/Hahnemann University
Hospital
St. Vincent's Hospital
UMDNJ/ Kennedy Memorial/ University
Medical Center
Walter Reed Army Medical

I have no reason to sugar-coat or accentuate, whereas someone in a DO school may be trying to "save face" a little and put a rosy spin on things, know that OP when you get advice on this issue.

In regards to this list, well OP, if you really look at it you'll see that most of the graduates matched into pretty non-competitive specialties and lower end hospitals. For those who did match at a "name brand" MD program, they only matched there in a non-competitive specialty (ex-akin to getting into Harvard for a 1 month adult/community education program vs getting into Harvard College, in case you're unfamiliar with the hierarchy of hospital and specialties, OP). In the competitive specialties (surgery for example), the people at this list matched mostly to DO programs.

And sure, a very few people on that list (especially considering the number of people on the list/in the class to begin with) matched into decently competitive specialties at decent MD programs...as I said in my previous post, you can "overcome" to some extent. But here's the kicker...

PCOM is supposedly the BEST DO school out there, its like the flagship, and this is the best they can do. Congrats to all their graduates, but if you look at the list carefully, and then consider where it came from, it is very telling indeed and speeks exactly to my points.

 

[tnig469]

 

[nlax30]

I have no reason to sugar-coat or accentuate, whereas someone in a DO school may be trying to "save face" a little and put a rosy spin on things, know that OP when you get advice on this issue.

I don't think anyone here is trying to put a "rosy spin" on things. I am just trying to point out that most of the information that seems to be put out about this issue is based on personal belief and opinions. Just like in your post above you said something about "DO is seen by many as being inferior". Really? Who is this many you refer to? If you're talking about pre-meds that doesn't count. If you're talking about patients in the general public show me a study with reliable data.

It's just statements like that which are thrown about all the time.....Example: many people view it as inferior; most of those matches are at non-competitive programs (again, supporting data? residency ranking system I wasn't aware of?); many doors will be closed for you, etc....

This is just an issue that does not lend itself to broad generalizations like that. Sure, if you're gunning for a highly competitive derm program that doesn't take DOs then of course, you better go MD.... and even then odds are against you.

My point is, as far as I know, there is no data or records kept that allows us to say your odds of matching a certain program or a certain specialty are X% as an MD and Y% as a DO.

 

[Bacchus]

I don't think anyone here is trying to put a "rosy spin" on things. I am just trying to point out that most of the information that seems to be put out about this issue is based on personal belief and opinions. Just like in your post above you said something about "DO is seen by many as being inferior". Really? Who is this many you refer to? If you're talking about pre-meds that doesn't count. If you're talking about patients in the general public show me a study with reliable data.

It's just statements like that which are thrown about all the time.....Example: many people view it as inferior; most of those matches are at non-competitive programs (again, supporting data? residency ranking system I wasn't aware of?); many doors will be closed for you, etc....

This is just an issue that does not lend itself to broad generalizations like that. Sure, if you're gunning for a highly competitive derm program that doesn't take DOs then of course, you better go MD.... and even then odds are against you.

My point is, as far as I know, there is no data or records kept that allows us to say your odds of matching a certain program or a certain specialty are X% as an MD and Y% as a DO.

I guess oto-facial plastics isn't prestigious enough, because it's through PCOM.

 

[coffeeeandtea]

I don't think anyone here is trying to put a "rosy spin" on things. I am just trying to point out that most of the information that seems to be put out about this issue is based on personal belief and opinions. Just like in your post above you said something about "DO is seen by many as being inferior". Really? Who is this many you refer to? If you're talking about pre-meds that doesn't count. If you're talking about patients in the general public show me a study with reliable data.

It's just statements like that which are thrown about all the time.....Example: many people view it as inferior; most of those matches are at non-competitive programs (again, supporting data? residency ranking system I wasn't aware of?); many doors will be closed for you, etc....

This is just an issue that does not lend itself to broad generalizations like that. Sure, if you're gunning for a highly competitive derm program that doesn't take DOs then of course, you better go MD.... and even then odds are against you.

My point is, as far as I know, there is no data or records kept that allows us to say your odds of matching a certain program or a certain specialty are X% as an MD and Y% as a DO.

 

[countthestars]

Every year, the lines are getting razer thin between MD and DO schools in terms of stats. The new incomming class at NYCOM had an average GPA around 3.5 and a MCAT around 28, 29...Those stats are almost as close as many lower and some middle tier MD schools. I suspect by the time many of you in high school finish college and start applying, the stats will be even closer.

Lets not also forget the vast number of non-trads that are in DO schools. Many of which were not science majors and had 9-5 jobs before saying screw it, I wanna go into medicine. Some of these students are just as smart as the others that have 35 MCATs but because they had other jobs and haven't seen most of the material in years, the MCAT score of those applicants are lower.

I hate how there are so many generalizations in this tread.

As far as residencies go, lets take a look at NYCOM GME NYCOMEC (which does NYCOM's residencies). There are spots that ONLY DOs can apply to. MDs cannot. Lets take a look at the highly regarded Neurosurgery residency....NYCOM has a residency at NSUH-LIJ (which is a main teaching hosptial for NYU and Albert Einstein which is DO only. I know certain MDs that would kill to have a shot at that place.

 

[ZeusonRoids]

Do a side by side comparison of the 2008 USC-Keck match list and the PCOM match list.

BTW...to the h.SDN members...USC is not a top 10 Medical school (just saying that so you don't think I am picking a harvard or Hopkins to compare to PCOM)

USC-Keck (MD program) 2008 Match List...Enjoy

Internal Medicine (25)
USC x4
Cedars-Sinai x4
Kaiser Permanente So Cal Region x2
GW
UCLA
Baylor
UC Davis
Case Western
Harbor-UCLA
Olive View-UCLA
UT-Southwestern
Temple U
Kaiser Permanente Oakland
Naval Medical Center San Diego
OHSU
Portland Med Ctr
U Illinois-Chicago
Thomas Jefferson U

Pediatrics (21)
Childrens Hospital LA x6
Childrens Hospital Oakland x2
U Washington x2
USC x2
UCLA
Duke
U Hawaii
UC Davis
Loma Linda
Georgetown
Michigan St Univ-Kalamazoo
St. Louis Childrens Hospital
Childrens Hospital Boston

Surgery (19)
USC x2
UCSF x2
Rush Univ x2
Cedars-Sinai x2
UCLA
UCSD
OHSU
U Mich
U Illinois
Boston U
Harbor-UCLA
Harvard/Brigham & Women's Hosp
Kaiser Permanente So Cal Region
Huntington Memorial Hospital
Tripler Army Med Ctr-HI

Orthopedic Surgery (14)
U Washington x2
Harbor-UCLA x2
Wake Forest
Vanderbilt
Dartmouth
USC
Mayo Clinic
Case Western
Univ South Carolina
UCSD
U Minnesota
Northwestern U

Emergency Medicine (13)
USCx5
Northwestern U x2
Yale
UC Irvine
Case Western
Univ of Buffalo
Einstein/Jacobi Med Ctr NY
Harvard/Brigham & Women's Hosp

Psychiatry (10)
USC x3
Harbor-UCLA x2
Stanford x2
UCLA
UCSD
Northwestern U

Dermatology (8)
U Colorado
Harvard/MGH
Harbor-UCLA
Brown
U Mich
USC
Mt. Sinai
UCLA

Radiology-Diagnostic (8)
USC x4
Baylor
Cedars-Sinai
Westchester Med Ctr NY
Maricopa Medical Center AZ

Ob/Gyn (8)
USC x2
UCLA x2
U Mich
UC Davis
Kaiser Permanente So Cal Region
Kaiser Permanente Oakland

ENT (7)
USC x4
U Mich
UC Davis
Harvard/Mass Eye and Ear Infirmary

Ophthalmology (5)
USC
U Iowa
Mt. Sinai NY
U Cincinnati
U Washington

Anesthesiology (5)
NYU
U Colorado
UCLA
Stanford
USC

Family Medicine (5)
Ventura County Med Ctr x2
Scripps Mercy Hosp
Kaiser Permanente So Cal Region
Naval Hospital Camp Pendleton

Medicine-Preliminary (4)
Kaiser Permanente So Cal Region
UCSD
Olive View-UCLA
UC Irvine

Neurology (4)
Stanford
UC Irvine
USC
Jackson Memorial-FL

Urology (2)
USC
UC Davis

Neurosurgery (2)
USC
Baylor

Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery (2)
USC x2

Plastic Surgery (1)
U Chicago

Pathology (1)
Cedars-Sinai

Radiation Oncology (1)
USC




I think that the difference speaks for itself. USC matches (IN ALL SPECIALTIES) into competitive programs and good hospitals.

 

[Bacchus]

Fine, you win. I'm going to go drop out and tell our Dean of Students its because our matchlist is horrible. A matchlist reflects the ideas of the current class. We have some very good hospitals on ours indicating the ability for students to acheive such positions. However, if the students aren't interested in a specific hospital or a program its not going to be shown. A look at some of the other osteopathic matchlists will show additional hospitals that are well known and regarded as "frontrunners." Regardless of where you train or what you specialize in you will most definitely have patients. Patients = money. Residency =/= income potential unless you're nationally known among all the residents training and are recruited.

Now, we can continue to try and diminish the DO profession, or many of us can realize we will be working with DOs and MDs and accept them as colleagues. The hospital isn't big enough for some of the egos floating around here.

As I said before, I have no doubt in my mind that my education is going to be atleast equivalent to programs across the country.

 

[ZeusonRoids]

Fine, you win. I'm going to go drop out and tell our Dean of Students its because our matchlist is horrible. A matchlist reflects the ideas of the current class. We have some very good hospitals on ours indicating the ability for students to acheive such positions. However, if the students aren't interested in a specific hospital or a program its not going to be shown. A look at some of the other osteopathic matchlists will show additional hospitals that are well known and regarded as "frontrunners." Regardless of where you train or what you specialize in you will most definitely have patients. Patients = money. Residency =/= income potential unless you're nationally known among all the residents training and are recruited.

Now, we can continue to try and diminish the DO profession, or many of us can realize we will be working with DOs and MDs and accept them as colleagues. The hospital isn't big enough for some of the egos floating around here.

As I said before, I have no doubt in my mind that my education is going to be atleast equivalent to programs across the country.

I am not diminishing the DO profession. I just don't like when people like you try and make DO out to be EXACTLY equal to MD in every respect. How you do does depend on the individual to some extent...but there are aspects you are not considering

1. the types of people who want to teach at an MD school vs. DO school and the impact that has on the lectures.
2. your peer group can cause you to raise your own performance. Practicing with the best people you can will make you better and add more depth to your education.
3. The research opportunities that exist at most MD schools are far superior to those you can find through a DO school(can enhance residency apps)
4. All other things being equal people will recognize the MD school and probably not know much about the DO school.

There are many more things...
I just dont want people to think that going into DO will provide you with the same depth of experience that an MD school can.

What if someone were to say that they could go to St. George (Carribbean Med school) and would get the same out of the process as they would if you went to a DO school. I think you would call bull**** on that and you would be right to do so. People who go to the Carribbean can still potentially get a great residency...but the chances are lower as is the quality of the peer group they are working with and more importantly MAKING PROFESSIONAL CONNECTIONS WITH.

 

[nlax30]

The only point you make there that I'll even start to concede to is #3 in reference to research opportunities.

Beyond that you're other points are just your personal opinion/belief and should be stated as such....... Especially when you try to assume the quality of professors based on the school or say something ridiculous like the DO route won't expose you to as much as the MD will.

If you want to belief that or share those opinions by all means do so, but I don't even remotely see how you can state those as "fact".

 

[Bacchus]

I am not diminishing the DO profession. I just don't like when people like you try and make DO out to be EXACTLY equal to MD in every respect. How you do does depend on the individual to some extent...but there are aspects you are not considering

1. the types of people who want to teach at an MD school vs. DO school and the impact that has on the lectures.
2. your peer group can cause you to raise your own performance. Practicing with the best people you can will make you better and add more depth to your education.
3. The research opportunities that exist at most MD schools are far superior to those you can find through a DO school(can enhance residency apps)
4. All other things being equal people will recognize the MD school and probably not know much about the DO school.

There are many more things...
I just dont want people to think that going into DO will provide you with the same depth of experience that an MD school can.

What if someone were to say that they could go to St. George (Carribbean Med school) and would get the same out of the process as they would if you went to a DO school. I think you would call bull**** on that and you would be right to do so. People who go to the Carribbean can still potentially get a great residency...but the chances are lower as is the quality of the peer group they are working with and more importantly MAKING PROFESSIONAL CONNECTIONS WITH.

1) The faculty for the most part during your first two years are mixed. You will have PhD's and you will have physicians. We are an osteopathic school so we will have osteopathic physicians lecture us. However, we also have allopathic lecturers as well. These professionals have been in their field for quite some time and know what they are talking about, regardless of professional degree (MD or DO).

2) This is strictly an opinion.

3) This is mere opinion. We have excellent research here, IMO. Check out the CCDA.

4) This absolutely depends on location. DO's and their schools are a minority in the medical profession. The profession is only 100 years old. PCOM is recognized allover the northeast and our graduates are liked. We have no problems being successful.

 

[VMSmith]

Whether you feel MD and DO schools are equal really depends on what your personal goals are.

Want to be a high-powered academic physician at a prestigious university medical center? Then no, MD and DO are not equal. An MD, especially from an equally prestigious medical school, will give you the biggest advantage. Sure, you CAN achieve that goal as a DO, but it will be much more difficult because of the bias that still exists at these centers. You're extremely unlikely as a DO to match at places like MGH or the Brigham or Hopkins or NYP (Columbia and Cornell) for any specialty, even less competitive ones such as peds or psych.

Do you want to a superb clinician? Then yes, the MD and DO are pretty much equal. You can do any specialty as a DO, and the education everywhere is more or less equivalent in terms of training clinicians.

 

[VMSmith]

...then why do DO schools have lower GPA and MCAT scores across the board?

The simple answer to this is that MD schools are perceived as more desirable by the majority of applicants, leading them to be more competitive. On top of that, people with the numbers for MD schools are less likely to apply to DO schools, and those below or near the average for MD schools are more likely to do so. And every time the published averages remain disparate, people continue to have the impression (correctly or incorrectly) that MD schools are "better".

It's kind of a self-reinforcing bias. You can argue for other factors such as DO schools being more willing to look past numbers to see the actual person behind the application but I suspect that we'd see the same or similar disparity even if they didn't do so.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Okay, this has gone far enough. We don't need any DO-bashing in hSDN or anywhere else. Closed.