I will NOT be moving to South Dakota!

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daisyduke

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In the midst of my finalized ROL excitement, I ran across this article..... http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060223/pl_nm/rights_abortion_dc

Is this possible? I just can't believe it. It scares me to think what kind of precedent this could set.....

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i agree...this is crazy scary. im glad my choices are very liberal places. so i can provide for these women who will be forced to drive out of s. dakota. how horrible for the women who cant afford to do that though.
 
This is truly scary. This is the state where one of their graduating medical students (who is now at UCLA) was denied a letter by the OB/GYN department chair for starting a Medical Students For Choice chapter at her school.
 
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I have a new found respect for South Dakota. Its about time someone had the balls the stand up against Roe vs Wade. I hope other states follow suit so we can put this senseless issue to rest.
 
The sad part is the poorer states that really need the full range of reproductive services the most are going to be the first to ban abortions. :rolleyes:
 
Yahoo News said:
State legislatures in Ohio, Indiana, Georgia, Tennessee and Kentucky also have introduced similar measures this year, but South Dakota's legislative calendar means its law is likely to be enacted first.

Did this news influence anyone's rank list at all?
 
toxic-megacolon said:
The sad part is the poorer states that really need the full range of reproductive services the most are going to be the first to ban abortions. :rolleyes:

I think you guys may have missed the point of the article...the purpose of S. Dakota's bill is to challenge the supreme court's decision on Roe v. Wade. This means abortions would become illegal in EVERY state.
 
If that happens, I wonder what the new treatment for ectopic pregnancy will be?
 
Heathcliff said:
If that happens, I wonder what the new treatment for ectopic pregnancy will be?

death? (not being 100% serious, but these people who object to abortion don't usually care about the sanctity of human life and are the ones who send people out to die for idiotic causes, kill on the basis of religion, and support things like capital punishment and torture)
 
Yeah, this is a really interesting issue especially for all of us going into OB/GYN. There is some pretty good content about it on www.omninerd.com if you guys want to check it out. There's a really good article (titled "Abortion and the Law") about the legality of Roe v Wade that examines exactly how the Court decided the issue.
 
I should have applied for residency in Canada :(
 
BlackNDecker said:
I think you guys may have missed the point of the article...the purpose of S. Dakota's bill is to challenge the supreme court's decision on Roe v. Wade. This means abortions would become illegal in EVERY state.

I think you misunderstand...what an overturn of R v W would mean is that abortion would no longer be considered a part of the right to privacy, which is protected by the constitution. So, that would make abortion a state issue. As a state issue, it would be entirely up to each state whether abortion would be legal or not. so, while there are many states that would likely make abortion illegal, there are also many that would not.

I am one of those that is firmly behind each person having the right to decide what to do with their own body, however.

What I found interesting is that they went so far as to claim that life begins at conception...so, does that make an IUD a murder weapon? How about an ectopic??? Are you snuffing out a life when you give methotrexate, or when the IUD prevents implantation of a "life"?
 
pruritis_ani said:
I think you misunderstand...what an overturn of R v W would mean is that abortion would no longer be considered a part of the right to privacy, which is protected by the constitution. So, that would make abortion a state issue. As a state issue, it would be entirely up to each state whether abortion would be legal or not. so, while there are many states that would likely make abortion illegal, there are also many that would not.

Acknowledged, thanks for the clarification :thumbup:
 
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pruritis_ani said:
What I found interesting is that they went so far as to claim that life begins at conception...so, does that make an IUD a murder weapon? How about an ectopic??? Are you snuffing out a life when you give methotrexate, or when the IUD prevents implantation of a "life"?

Yes. There are people who will not use IUDs for this reason.

I'm just amazed at the speed at which people are trying to overturn roe vs wade with this new court. I sort of feel that the whole point of putting these two judges in was to get rid of that specific decision. Canada is so tempting, but how would we pay back our loans?
 
Heathcliff said:
If that happens, I wonder what the new treatment for ectopic pregnancy will be?

South Dakota's law provides for terminations when a mother's life is at risk. But not for rape or incest I believe.

I used to be prochoice.

But after OBG and seeing the cute foetus in the mommy's womb during MFM I wonder how any sane person could ever perform a termination if mommy's life is not at imminent risk. OBG should be about bringing life into the world, not killing foetuses.

There needs to be a promotion of a culture of life.

Georgia, Ohio, Tennessee, and South Carolina are the next bastions to follows in the culture of life.

I am glad my home institution allows the OBG residents to not perform terminations if they choose not to.
 
I am one of those that is firmly behind each person having the right to decide what to do with their own body, however.

So maybe we should allow those who have SI to do whatever they want to their body, like blow their brains out with a shotgun, because they should have "the right to decide what to do with their own body."

Doctors should be about promoting life not ending life. Just my humble opinion.
 
new_avatar said:
So maybe we should allow those who have SI to do whatever they want to their body, like blow their brains out with a shotgun, because they should have "the right to decide what to do with their own body."

Doctors should be about promoting life not ending life. Just my humble opinion.

1. I am all about promoting life, not ending life. But, my definition of life is likely different from yours.
2. I think it is insane for anybody to be able to impose their value system on another person (ie my religion says value life from conception, so therefore you must follow this ideal)

I believe that people do have the right to decide what to do with their own life and body. Frankly, pregnancy is a life threatening state, and a women should NOT be forced to risk her life by carrying a pregnancy.
 
new_avatar said:
South Dakota's law provides for terminations when a mother's life is at risk. But not for rape or incest I believe.

I used to be prochoice.

But after OBG and seeing the cute foetus in the mommy's womb during MFM I wonder how any sane person could ever perform a termination if mommy's life is not at imminent risk. OBG should be about bringing life into the world, not killing foetuses.

There needs to be a promotion of a culture of life.

Georgia, Ohio, Tennessee, and South Carolina are the next bastions to follows in the culture of life.

I am glad my home institution allows the OBG residents to not perform terminations if they choose not to.

Again, different people have different definitions of life. And, different people feel differently about this. The argument should not be based on "how I feel about the fetus". It should be based on the idea that different people have different value systems and beliefs, and that an individual is entitled to make a decison for themselves based on these beliefs.

I am fully behind your right to decide abortion is wrong for you. But, I do not for a minute agree with the idea that your views should be applied to everyone.

BTW, no program can force you to do abortions, at least in the states.
 
pruritis_ani said:
1. I am all about promoting life, not ending life. But, my definition of life is likely different from yours.
2. I think it is insane for anybody to be able to impose their value system on another person (ie my religion says value life from conception, so therefore you must follow this ideal)

I believe that people do have the right to decide what to do with their own life and body. Frankly, pregnancy is a life threatening state, and a women should NOT be forced to risk her life by carrying a pregnancy.

We impose our value system on our citizenry every day for the benefit of society. We don't allow euthenasia (well maybe in Oregon). We discourage suicide. We don't allow murder.

Now how about extending that protection to the most vulnerable population of all - the unborn child.

There are many who agree with my viewpoint everyone down from the President to the South Dakota legislature to the Pope.
 
new_avatar said:
We impose our value system on our citizenry every day for the benefit of society. We don't allow euthenasia (well maybe in Oregon). We discourage suicide. We don't allow murder.

Now how about extending that protection to the most vulnerable population of all - the unborn child.

There are many who agree with my viewpoint everyone down from the President to the South Dakota legislature to the Pope.

Hmmmm. So, the unborn child has more rights than the mother carrying it?

Suicide, euthanasia are fairly controversial on their own. But, again, we are talking about clearly "living" people in these cases. The argument about life is a bit more complex. But, in many cases I do believe that individual rights should be protected.

Murder is a totally different story, and a bit ridiculous to include. Then you are clearly talking about somebody taking the rights (or the life) of another.

I don't really care what the pope, or our prosetlyzing evangalist of a president think. To them it is a religious argument, which further emphasizes how this should not be a legislative issue (seperation of church and state).

I know there are a lot of people that agree with you. That is great! I am all for you having the right to your beliefs. What I don't agree with is the arrogant assumption that your beliefs are the "right" beliefs, and that you are somehow allowed to impose them on others.

Do whatever you want for yourself, but leave the choice to the individual.
 
new_avatar said:
Georgia, Ohio, Tennessee, and South Carolina are the next bastions to follows in the culture of life.

Oh yeah, these are definately considered among the most progressive states in the nation :rolleyes:
 
Looks like it's time to open up that back door to the clinic after hours and get security guards for the front door. Flap jacket and/or bulletproof vest might be a good idea under the white coat.

We are descending back into the dark ages, kids...grab your penlights...
 
pruritis_ani said:
Hmmmm. So, the unborn child has more rights than the mother carrying it?

Suicide, euthanasia are fairly controversial on their own. But, again, we are talking about clearly "living" people in these cases. The argument about life is a bit more complex. But, in many cases I do believe that individual rights should be protected.

Murder is a totally different story, and a bit ridiculous to include. Then you are clearly talking about somebody taking the rights (or the life) of another.

I don't really care what the pope, or our prosetlyzing evangalist of a president think. To them it is a religious argument, which further emphasizes how this should not be a legislative issue (seperation of church and state).

I know there are a lot of people that agree with you. That is great! I am all for you having the right to your beliefs. What I don't agree with is the arrogant assumption that your beliefs are the "right" beliefs, and that you are somehow allowed to impose them on others.

Do whatever you want for yourself, but leave the choice to the individual.

How about your imposing "no rights" on the unborn child. How come you don't mention her rights?

If a woman can do anything she wants to her body why do GYN people discouarge her from drinking alcohol during preggers? What if she doesn't care about having an FAS baby? Isn't that her right? How about crack?

In California you can be charged with murder x 2 for killing a pregnant lady.

Roe is on its final leg which I think is good. It will allow the people through their elective representatives to decide whether they want such a practice in their community - and hopefully most will not.
 
"South Dakota's law provides for terminations when a mother's life is at risk." -- new_avatar

According to the article, "The bill as written does make an exception if the fetus dies during a doctor's attempt to save the mother's life."

And yet, "Proposed amendments to the law to create exceptions to specifically protect the health of the mother ... were voted down."

Please explain how that makes any sense.
 
new_avatar said:
How about your imposing "no rights" on the unborn child. How come you don't mention her rights?

If a woman can do anything she wants to her body why do GYN people discouarge her from drinking alcohol during preggers? What if she doesn't care about having an FAS baby? Isn't that her right? How about crack?

In California you can be charged with murder x 2 for killing a pregnant lady.

Roe is on its final leg which I think is good. It will allow the people through their elective representatives to decide whether they want such a practice in their community - and hopefully most will not.

First point, again, we disagree on when life is life. To a certain point this unborn child is really just a bunch of cells that may differentiate into a life, IMHO.

Discouraging a person from damaging a fetus that she intends to give birth to is a lot different than keeping abortion as an option. A woman that intends to give birth to a child should be encouraged to make healthful choices. But, all we can do is encourage. this is totally seperate from allowing a woman to choose abortion.

And, murdering a pregnant woman that has a baby she intends to give birth to can certainly be called murder. However, eliminating a collection of cells that impose a significant risk on the person carrying the cells should remain the choice of the person involved, and nothing else.

We can have this circular argument all day long. It is pretty clear that you feel you are entitled to make this decision for everyone, and it is also clear that you will never convince me you have that right.
 
pruritis_ani said:
We can have this circular argument all day long. It is pretty clear that you feel you are entitled to make this decision for everyone, and it is also clear that you will never convince me you have that right.

I just hope that we can promote a culture of life in our society, a society which is governed by the rule of law.

Though I don't agree with permissive abortion I will give information regarding the practice in its permissible/legal context.

As the culture of our society and law changes I hope that you will respect the law if and when you find yourself in a jurisdiction that does not allow abortion on demand.

It is our job as clinicians to respect the law and not to take the law into our own hands.

As President Bush said in January:

"You believe, as I do, that every human life has value, that the strong have a duty to protect the weak, and that the self-evident truths of the Declaration of Independence apply to everyone, not just to those considered healthy or wanted or convenient," he said. "These principles call us to defend the sick and the dying, persons with disabilities and birth defects, and all who are weak and vulnerable, especially unborn children."

"By changing laws," he added, "we can change our culture."
 
new_avatar said:
I just hope that we can promote a culture of life in our society, a society which is governed by the rule of law.

Though I don't agree with permissive abortion I will give information regarding the practice in its permissible/legal context.

As the culture of our society and law changes I hope that you will respect the law if and when you find yourself in a jurisdiction that does not allow abortion on demand.

It is our job as clinicians to respect the law and not to take the law into our own hands.

While I cannot say what I would do if it were made illegal to make a choice about your own body, I can sure hope that the right to privacy and personal choice will be maintained. If it does come to the point where our government tried to impose laws based on religion, I will certainly do what I can to oppose it, and at the very least make sure that my patients have good information on where the care they deserve is legal.

BTW, what South Dakota is doing is pretty clearly going right in the face of the law. I guess they do NOT support the law....
 
pruritis_ani said:
While I cannot say what I would do if it were made illegal to make a choice about your own body, I can sure hope that the right to privacy and personal choice will be maintained. If it does come to the point where our government tried to impose laws based on religion, I will certainly do what I can to oppose it, and at the very least make sure that my patients have good information on where the care they deserve is legal.

BTW, what South Dakota is doing is pretty clearly going right in the face of the law. I guess they do NOT support the law....

Law is made by the legislature. It is the duty of the courts to say whether the law is constitutional. Courts may follow precedent but they may change also. Remember, at one time certain members of our society were less human than others.

Right now certain individuals have less rights than others. It is now up to the courts to decide whether or not the new law is c/w their interpretation of the constitution or not. These interpretations change over time. Whatever happens I hope all will respect the rule of law.
 
You keep trying to promote this "life" aspect, but the problem is the definition of life. I believe in the protection of life 100%, but I do not believe that a product of conception is alive from the moment of fertilization. For a good while, it is merely a collection of cells that pose a large mental and physical burden on the mother.
 
new_avatar said:
Law is made by the legislature. It is the duty of the courts to say whether the law is constitutional. Courts may follow precedent but they may change also. Remember, at one time certain members of our society were less human than others.

Right now certain individuals have less rights than others. It is now up to the courts to decide whether or not the new law is c/w their interpretation of the constitution or not. These interpretations change over time.

Things already did change over time, to reflect a better educated, more free society that respects individual rights. You are trying to get society to move backward and limit those hard won rights.
 
I live in North Carolina, and there are a lot of pro-lifers here. the problem is that they really don't know enough about contraceptives so they contradict their beliefs by taking the birth control that doesn't prevent ovulation/fertilization, but only prevents implantation. Like the IUD issue mentioned above, people tend to act "holier-than-thou" when in fact they take OCPs that destroy what they consider to be a person. And they have no idea that this is happening because education is horrible down here. There is no safe sex education, but instead only abstinance education, which as most people can guess doesn't work very well. Birth control is looked down on, because of NC's location in the Bible belt, and so lots of young girls get pregnant and are faced with the option of abortion.

I am pre-med, and I have no idea how I would feel about abortions as a physician. I think there are situations where abortions are the best option, but it is an individual choice. I also have fertility issues, and don't know if I will ever be able to have children of my own. This will probably have a big effect on how I feel about abortions when I'm a doctor.

Better education and awareness about pregnancy is important in helping reduce the number of abortions/unwanted pregnancies that happen every year. But until parents can talk to their kids about sex/pregnancy, I don't think the number of these pregnancies will decrease. It's sad, I've seen a lot of people my age or younger be put in difficult situations because of a pregnancy. And it's largely preventable. :mad:
 
pruritis_ani said:
Again, different people have different definitions of life. And, different people feel differently about this. The argument should not be based on "how I feel about the fetus". It should be based on the idea that different people have different value systems and beliefs, and that an individual is entitled to make a decison for themselves based on these beliefs.

I am fully behind your right to decide abortion is wrong for you. But, I do not for a minute agree with the idea that your views should be applied to everyone.

BTW, no program can force you to do abortions, at least in the states.

But, What about the baby?

When do the "products of conception" become a baby?

If a woman terminates at 18 weeks, is it a baby?
If a woman miscarries at 18 weeks, is it a death?

In our current society, the answer to the former is no.
The answer to the latter is, legally, yes.

These are inconsistent and incompatible answers.

It is generally fairly easy to prevent a pregnancy. All of my new ob patients are asked if the pregancy was planned at first visit. None of them who said the pregnancy was unplanned left the office without knowing contraceptive options.

I agree that there is a right to choose, but that right ends when the baby gets involved. Precisely when that is, I don't think any of us can say for sure. There are some that err on the side of caution and rule out IUDs, and others that err on the other side and say as long as baby is in the womb.

I agree that South Dakota's law will not ban abortion in the US. Prior to Roe, New York State permitted abortion. Others will as well and will continue to do so.
 
3dtp said:
But, What about the baby?

When do the "products of conception" become a baby?

If a woman terminates at 18 weeks, is it a baby?
If a woman miscarries at 18 weeks, is it a death?

In our current society, the answer to the former is no.
The answer to the latter is, legally, yes.

These are inconsistent and incompatible answers.

It is generally fairly easy to prevent a pregnancy. All of my new ob patients are asked if the pregancy was planned at first visit. None of them who said the pregnancy was unplanned left the office without knowing contraceptive options.

I agree that there is a right to choose, but that right ends when the baby gets involved. Precisely when that is, I don't think any of us can say for sure. There are some that err on the side of caution and rule out IUDs, and others that err on the other side and say as long as baby is in the womb.

I agree that South Dakota's law will not ban abortion in the US. Prior to Roe, New York State permitted abortion. Others will as well and will continue to do so.


3dtp -- very eloquently stated. :) i quoted you in the other thread on this ssame topic in the next thread over.
 
BTW, no program can force you to do abortions, at least in the states.

Is that for sure? I attended a conference with an adcom from LSU Medical and one of the talking points he brought up was "the curriculum". A student asked about having to learn & perform the procedures of abortion. He replied that it is a part of the curriculum and if you have religious objections you can always leave the medical school.

Frankly that shocked me, being in Louisiana and all. But he didn't explicitly say you had to perform it or be kicked out, just that if you didn't want to perform it, you could leave (or fail that section?).

I can understand the need for comprehensive curriculum, but can someone verify for me that you can opt out on performing the procedures of abortion?
 
thebeatgoeson said:
Is that for sure? I attended a conference with an adcom from LSU Medical and one of the talking points he brought up was "the curriculum". A student asked about having to learn & perform the procedures of abortion. He replied that it is a part of the curriculum and if you have religious objections you can always leave the medical school.

Frankly that shocked me, being in Louisiana and all. But he didn't explicitly say you had to perform it or be kicked out, just that if you didn't want to perform it, you could leave (or fail that section?).

I can understand the need for comprehensive curriculum, but can someone verify for me that you can opt out on performing the procedures of abortion?

I don't know about LSU, but Tulane had serious and seemingly similar issues some years ago. Tom Elkins was chair of OB-Gyn at Tulane about 10 or so years ago, maybe longer than that ago and ran into serious problems when he opposed abortion training for residents at Tulane. He ended up leaving to go on to chair the program at Hopkins before he died.

So, I guess I can say I'm not surprised. When I interviewed at UMN in Minneapolis, I asked about this and was told, "We are proud to be able to teach everyone who comes here the necessary skills to be a complete gynecologist." Other programs were more open about being able to opt out.
 
Our mothers chose life, we should too.
 
I could care less which way a state wants to sway with this decision, either way, I feel abortion is a shi$$y thing. But that's for me, personally. I feel individuals should have the right to choose, period.

You know what would really be great? If the pro-lifers got together and adopted all of the orphaned, crack-addicted, HIV+ kids whose moms felt like they do. Or, they could buddy-up with a social worker when they make their little home visits to make sure the little ones don't have new cigarette burns on them, or that they aren't still being used as sex receptors for their mothers' strung-out boyfriends.
 
The debate about abortion does not rest on what is "life" what is a "baby" and what is "death." Obviously, a human embryo is human life. It's not a batch of cupcakes or a litter of kittens, and it isn't dead. It's human, and it is not dead, therefore it is human and it is alive.

So what?

There is no other case in which one human has the right to use another human's organs without expressed consent. This isn't about the "cute little foetus" (great professional tone there, new avatar) and it's questionable "right" to be gestated, this is about "Mommy" and her already established right to privacy in her medical decisions, and her right to control how her body is used.

In no other circumstance is a person forced to donate their bodily resources to support the life of another. I am against giving special privileges to fetuses, esspecially when it involves removing rights from people whose status of being "life, "persons," "aware," and so on is not questionable in the least, from either a philosophical or medical standpoint.
 
Radiohead said:
Our mothers chose life, we should too.

If everyone's mom jumped off a bridge during pregnancy, would you do it too?
 
Larch said:
The debate about abortion does not rest on what is "life" what is a "baby" and what is "death." Obviously, a human embryo is human life. It's not a batch of cupcakes or a litter of kittens, and it isn't dead. It's human, and it is not dead, therefore it is human and it is alive.

So what?

There is no other case in which one human has the right to use another human's organs without expressed consent. This isn't about the "cute little foetus" (great professional tone there, new avatar) and it's questionable "right" to be gestated, this is about "Mommy" and her already established right to privacy in her medical decisions, and her right to control how her body is used.

In no other circumstance is a person forced to donate their bodily resources to support the life of another. I am against giving special privileges to fetuses, esspecially when it involves removing rights from people whose status of being "life, "persons," "aware," and so on is not questionable in the least, from either a philosophical or medical standpoint.



'Mommy' has already established her right to control how her body was used. She has, in the vast majority of cases, consented to the use of her organs by permitting intercourse which led to conception and what you admit is human and is alive.

It is a question of timing.

I think that even the youngest sexually active woman (and her partner(s)) know that the potential outcome of permitting the use of her body is a pregnancy. A bad choice at this point leading to an unwanted pregnancy means the prime checkpoint has passed. By your reasoning, then, once a path has been chosen, passively, by failing to plan, thereby giving implied consent to the likely and well known outcome.

Once this point is reached, then the baby, given your comment does indeed have the right to nurture, from that point forward. If there was consensual intercourse, which a woman has the right to refuse (choice?) then the consequences of this action imply consent to support the life of the baby, presumably for the next 18 years or so.
 
3dtp said:
'Mommy' has already established her right to control how her body was used. She has, in the vast majority of cases, consented to the use of her organs by permitting intercourse which led to conception and what you admit is human and is alive.

It is a question of timing.

I think that even the youngest sexually active woman (and her partner(s)) know that the potential outcome of permitting the use of her body is a pregnancy. A bad choice at this point leading to an unwanted pregnancy means the prime checkpoint has passed. By your reasoning, then, once a path has been chosen, passively, by failing to plan, thereby giving implied consent to the likely and well known outcome.

Once this point is reached, then the baby, given your comment does indeed have the right to nurture, from that point forward. If there was consensual intercourse, which a woman has the right to refuse (choice?) then the consequences of this action imply consent to support the life of the baby, presumably for the next 18 years or so.

Now this is a disturbing post...you seem to be saying that women are not entitled to seperate sex from reproduction. That is pretty sad, IMHO.

Unintended pregnancy is a potential consequence of every sex act. Call me crazy, but I think that punishing a woman for choosing to have sex is pretty archaic. While I do not think abortion is appropriate as a method of birth control, I do think that the woman has the right to have sex, and to control what happens to her body at all times. If she becomes pregnant, and does not wish to assume the risk of a pregnancy or the obligation of raising a child, she certainly should not be forced to.

3dtp, I have respected your well thought out positions up to this point. It just blows my mind that you would give up your thoughtful position on the matter and attempt to resort to the "if you don't want a baby, don't have sex" argument that is absolutely contradictory to the concept of equal rights for women.
 
Larch said:
This isn't about the "cute little foetus" (great professional tone there, new avatar) and it's questionable "right" to be gestated, this is about "Mommy" and her already established right to privacy in her medical decisions, and her right to control how her body is used.

Ad hominen attacks will get you nowhere.

It IS about the cute little HUMAN foetus and ITS rights. It is society's G-d given responsibility to protect the weak and the vulnerable.

As S. Dak. governor Mike Rounds said in Pierre:

"Unborn children are the most vulnerable and most helpless persons in our society."

US state tightens abortion laws
 
right on pruritis, the choice to have sex is very separate from the decision to have a child. for many, if not most, women, the choice to have a child is weighed emotionally and financially. the same cannot be said for sex. there is a disconnect between the value we place on the sex act and the degree of responsiblity required to raise a child.
 
Larch said:
If everyone's mom jumped off a bridge during pregnancy, would you do it too?

?
 
pruritis_ani said:
Now this is a disturbing post...you seem to be saying that women are not entitled to seperate sex from reproduction. That is pretty sad, IMHO.

Unintended pregnancy is a potential consequence of every sex act. Call me crazy, but I think that punishing a woman for choosing to have sex is pretty archaic. While I do not think abortion is appropriate as a method of birth control, I do think that the woman has the right to have sex, and to control what happens to her body at all times. If she becomes pregnant, and does not wish to assume the risk of a pregnancy or the obligation of raising a child, she certainly should not be forced to.

3dtp, I have respected your well thought out positions up to this point. It just blows my mind that you would give up your thoughtful position on the matter and attempt to resort to the "if you don't want a baby, don't have sex" argument that is absolutely contradictory to the concept of equal rights for women.


I think you misunderstood. I merely stated that women can and do choose to act rashly in the "heat of the moment," or under the influence of whatever. I don't think that this is at all at odds with equal rights for women. But, with "rights" come responsibilities. And this applies to the man as well. It is equally his responsibility to ask/insure that the risk of pregnancy is addressed, even in the heat of the fling. If not, then condoms with spermacide should reside in his pocket and be put in place before the act. If a pregnancy results, he must also be responsible and many states and the federal government see to it that he supports the child.

I do not advocate punishing a woman for having sex. I do think that with the ready availability of contraception in its may and varied forms, including Plan B, that the responsibility that comes with having sex, planned in advance or in a drunken fling is to know and recognize that responsibility. I do think that once a pregnancy has begun, I advocate accepting responsibility for the act and the ensuing life. The question is and remains, in my mind, "What about the baby?" Ergo, I am the biggest fan of timely contraception. Properly and responsibily used, the efficacy of contraception approaches 98%. We all know the risks of the activities we participate in, and by participating, accept them.

I stated above, that all of my new OB patients are asked, up front, if their pregnancy was planned. If not, then the next question in the first visit, is what are you planning to do next time? IF the answer is a dull silence, which it frequently is, then my response, is, ok, so you're planning to have another baby, Right?

That generally opens the discussion to appropriate birth control planning, which, I hope! will avoid the need for a voluntary termination, which is certainly not without risks to the mother in and of itself.

No one who has an unplanned pregnancy, carried to term who does not inform me in advance what type of contraception they wish in the future leaves the hospital post partum without a prescription for OCP or Plan B.

While the debate on Plan B may rage, I personally think that Plan B is far preferable to an abortion later on. I was very unhappy that it was denied OTC status for these reasons.

In certain religious traditions (not mine), the age of majority in both men and women is considered roughly 13. I am not a student of religion, but I think that the elders of that religion had a good idea. When you were capable of reproduction, you are responsible as an adult, with all that that entails. Is this such a high burden?
 
AtYourCervix said:
right on pruritis, the choice to have sex is very separate from the decision to have a child. for many, if not most, women, the choice to have a child is weighed emotionally and financially. the same cannot be said for sex. there is a disconnect between the value we place on the sex act and the degree of responsiblity required to raise a child.

But there is a link between the two isn't there? Like sex-->pregnant?
It's not a (gasp) big secret.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larch
If everyone's mom jumped off a bridge during pregnancy, would you do it too?



?

I found this berry berry puzzling also. What does it mean?
 
3dtp said:
I think you misunderstood. I merely stated that women can and do choose to act rashly in the "heat of the moment," or under the influence of whatever. I don't think that this is at all at odds with equal rights for women. But, with "rights" come responsibilities. And this applies to the man as well. It is equally his responsibility to ask/insure that the risk of pregnancy is addressed, even in the heat of the fling. If not, then condoms with spermacide should reside in his pocket and be put in place before the act. If a pregnancy results, he must also be responsible and many states and the federal government see to it that he supports the child.

I do not advocate punishing a woman for having sex. I do think that with the ready availability of contraception in its may and varied forms, including Plan B, that the responsibility that comes with having sex, planned in advance or in a drunken fling is to know and recognize that responsibility. I do think that once a pregnancy has begun, I advocate accepting responsibility for the act and the ensuing life. The question is and remains, in my mind, "What about the baby?" Ergo, I am the biggest fan of timely contraception. Properly and responsibily used, the efficacy of contraception approaches 98%. We all know the risks of the activities we participate in, and by participating, accept them.

I stated above, that all of my new OB patients are asked, up front, if their pregnancy was planned. If not, then the next question in the first visit, is what are you planning to do next time? IF the answer is a dull silence, which it frequently is, then my response, is, ok, so you're planning to have another baby, Right?

That generally opens the discussion to appropriate birth control planning, which, I hope! will avoid the need for a voluntary termination, which is certainly not without risks to the mother in and of itself.

No one who has an unplanned pregnancy, carried to term who does not inform me in advance what type of contraception they wish in the future leaves the hospital post partum without a prescription for OCP or Plan B.

While the debate on Plan B may rage, I personally think that Plan B is far preferable to an abortion later on. I was very unhappy that it was denied OTC status for these reasons.

In certain religious traditions (not mine), the age of majority in both men and women is considered roughly 13. I am not a student of religion, but I think that the elders of that religion had a good idea. When you were capable of reproduction, you are responsible as an adult, with all that that entails. Is this such a high burden?

Please do give me a break.

Contraception is 98% effective, best case. That means out of every 100 sex acts, in a perfect contraception world, there are 2 unintended pregnancies. That is a lot of babies, my friend.

Now, I can respect your personal views that the products of conception should be nurtured. That is wonderful, and if you have an unintended pregnancy, you should follow through with this to your hearts content.

I 100% disagree with the ludicrous idea that a woman should be forced to live with the unintended results of sex. A product of conception is just that. There is no "right to nurture" that I am aware of. However, individuals do have the right to decide to have sex, and if a pregnancy results they do have the right to decide whether to accept the risks of continuing the pregnancy or whether termination is the option.

At the core of your argument is that there is a "life" involved, which many would disagree with, and that this "life" also somehow has more rights than the mother carrying it. I find it hard to understand this, but if it is your opinion, that is great. All I ask is that you refrain from imposing your antiquated views about women and sex, and your personal views and philosophy about individual rights and the definition of life on the rest of the US.
 
new_avatar said:
But there is a link between the two isn't there? Like sex-->pregnant?
It's not a (gasp) big secret.

There is a very large difference between sex for the sake of sex, and sex as the act of reproduction. A woman has the right to have sex. Period. If an unintended pregnancy occurs, she should NOT be punished. Period.
 
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