I promise not to debate you…

[xffan624]

I have to say. I did not see that one coming. At least one of those is a semi automatic military style rifle. Very surprising response from him indeed.
Yup, nothing to see here. Just more dead bodies blown up by guns. Thoughts and prayers.

I kinda want to ask "what's the number?" How many dead schoolchildren, churchgoers, or innocent people shopping will it take to care more than "thoughts and prayers."? Give me a number and I'll come back when we get there.

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[doctalaughs]

But since were never gonna get anywhere close to eliminating all AR-like rifles from the US, you're not gonna be able to keep em out of the hands of the 5-10 people a year who want to use them to shoot up a school

I’m not certain this is correct. Most of the cases I’ve read about— these psychos didn’t go to great lengths or show any high level of cunning/effort to get their weapons. These generally aren’t Lex Luther type criminals and may not have the wherewithal or resources to get past better background checks or tighter laws. Generally the ways they get their mass-murder weapons are:

1. Walk into a store or gun show and buy it totally legally, no questions asked within 24 hours (most common). Maybe there was something in the criminal history but for some reason it didn’t “quite” reach the legal threshold for the check.

2. Friend/dad buys or sponsors them to buy a high-power arsenel despite many warning signs of mental illness or anger issues.

3. Walked into an unsecured arsenel of ARs in their houses to grab a few out of the broom closet/ pantry / nursery etc. on their way to the elementary school.

I don’t see many of these people buying guns on the black market from dealers or using 3d printing to perfect their designs.

So essentially the problem is that of super-convenient access along with irresponsibility of those around the psychos. I think banning or severely limiting new sales would have a much larger impact than you think, even with the immense number in circulation. But I think we should also have stronger laws to severely penalize those that don’t secure their weapons or buy/facilitate purchase for mentally ill / violent people as well (that highland park dad definitely should be prosecuted if we had better laws imo).

Those 2 measures may actually change the tide.

 

[Matty44]

I’m not certain this is correct. Most of the cases I’ve read about— these psychos didn’t go to great lengths or show any high level of cunning/effort to get their weapons. These generally aren’t Lex Luther type criminals and may not have the wherewithal or resources to get past better background checks or tighter laws. Generally the ways they get their mass-murder weapons are:

1. Walk into a store or gun show and buy it totally legally, no questions asked within 24 hours (most common). Maybe there was something in the criminal history but for some reason it didn’t “quite” reach the legal threshold for the check.

2. Friend/dad buys or sponsors them to buy a high-power arsenel despite many warning signs of mental illness or anger issues.

3. Walked into an unsecured arsenel of ARs in their houses to grab a few out of the broom closet/ pantry / nursery etc. on their way to the elementary school.

I don’t see many of these people buying guns on the black market from dealers or using 3d printing to perfect their designs.

So essentially the problem is that of super-convenient access along with irresponsibility of those around the psychos. I think banning or severely limiting new sales would have a much larger impact than you think, even with the immense number in circulation. But I think we should also have stronger laws to severely penalize those that don’t secure their weapons or buy/facilitate purchase for mentally ill / violent people as well (that highland park dad definitely should be prosecuted if we had better laws imo).

Those 2 measures may actually change the tide.

Perhaps you’re right, but I kinda still think people who want to will find a way to get em. I agree with your last point about holding others accountable if they are complicit in the shooter acquiring a weapon for a mass shooting.

 

[nimbus]

I’m not certain this is correct. Most of the cases I’ve read about— these psychos didn’t go to great lengths or show any high level of cunning/effort to get their weapons. These generally aren’t Lex Luther type criminals and may not have the wherewithal or resources to get past better background checks or tighter laws. Generally the ways they get their mass-murder weapons are:

1. Walk into a store or gun show and buy it totally legally, no questions asked within 24 hours (most common). Maybe there was something in the criminal history but for some reason it didn’t “quite” reach the legal threshold for the check.

2. Friend/dad buys or sponsors them to buy a high-power arsenel despite many warning signs of mental illness or anger issues.

3. Walked into an unsecured arsenel of ARs in their houses to grab a few out of the broom closet/ pantry / nursery etc. on their way to the elementary school.

I don’t see many of these people buying guns on the black market from dealers or using 3d printing to perfect their designs.

So essentially the problem is that of super-convenient access along with irresponsibility of those around the psychos. I think banning or severely limiting new sales would have a much larger impact than you think, even with the immense number in circulation. But I think we should also have stronger laws to severely penalize those that don’t secure their weapons or buy/facilitate purchase for mentally ill / violent people as well (that highland park dad definitely should be prosecuted if we had better laws imo).

Those 2 measures may actually change the tide.

The guy who shot up the hospital in Oklahoma was an unremarkable law abiding citizen until he got mad at his surgeon. Perhaps a waiting period would have prevented this but he would have passed a background check.

Oklahoma hospital shooting: Four dead after gunman targets doctor

Police say the man blamed the doctor for his back pain and had purchased a rifle only hours earlier.

www.bbc.com

 

[chocomorsel]

What about the LV shooter who killed 60 people? He was a solid business man till he killed a hella lot of folks. Hella lot. And maimed about 1000 of them. My cousin knew him as his landlord.
But you know, thoughts and prayers.
I swear my memory tells me he killed like 160 people. Not just 60.

 

[AMEHigh]

I kinda want to ask "what's the number?" How many dead schoolchildren, churchgoers, or innocent people shopping will it take to care more than "thoughts and prayers."? Give me a number and I'll come back when we get there.

For many people there seems to be no number.
The fact that gun deaths are among one of the top reasons kids die in this country seems to not phase people means that I don’t think anything is ever going to change in people’s opinions and limiting the amount of guns available in this country.

 

[nimbus]

For many people there seems to be no number.
The fact that gun deaths are among one of the top reasons kids die in this country seems to not phase people means that I don’t think anything is ever going to change in people’s opinions and limiting the amount of guns available in this country.

 

[GravelRider]

View attachment 357318

The Gun Industry Created a New Consumer. Now It’s Killing Us.

Good marketing is supposed to generate demand. Bad firearms marketing has given us a national nightmare.

www.theatlantic.com

Here is a recent article written by a former executive of a gun manufacturer. He left the industry when he saw the transformation in how gun manufacturers advertise. In the article he talks about how gun marketing changed around 2010. It’s interesting that the firearm related injury line on the above graph began to swing upwards around that time. Maybe it’s a coincidence, but I am beginning to think more and more that gun manufacturer marketing techniques play an outsize role in many of the mass shootings and episodes of gun violence in America.

 

[nimbus]

The Gun Industry Created a New Consumer. Now It’s Killing Us.

Good marketing is supposed to generate demand. Bad firearms marketing has given us a national nightmare.

www.theatlantic.com

Here is a recent article written by a former executive of a gun manufacturer. He left the industry when he saw the transformation in how gun manufacturers advertise. In the article he talks about how gun marketing changed around 2010. It’s interesting that the firearm related injury line on the above graph began to swing upwards around that time. Maybe it’s a coincidence, but I am beginning to think more and more that gun manufacturer marketing techniques play an outsize role in many of the mass shootings and episodes of gun violence in America.

Thanks for the article. What a perversion of 2A 🤦🏻‍♂️

If some foreign invader became the #1 killer of our children, we would do something about it.

 

[CoolDoc1729]

The Gun Industry Created a New Consumer. Now It’s Killing Us.

Good marketing is supposed to generate demand. Bad firearms marketing has given us a national nightmare.

www.theatlantic.com

Here is a recent article written by a former executive of a gun manufacturer. He left the industry when he saw the transformation in how gun manufacturers advertise. In the article he talks about how gun marketing changed around 2010. It’s interesting that the firearm related injury line on the above graph began to swing upwards around that time. Maybe it’s a coincidence, but I am beginning to think more and more that gun manufacturer marketing techniques play an outsize role in many of the mass shootings and episodes of gun violence in America.

Thanks for posting.

 

[Matty44]

Police laud the actions of a man who killed a shooter at an Indiana mall

A 22-year-old man who was legally carrying a firearm at the mall shot and killed the gunman, police say. A gunman began firing at the Greenwood Park Mall shortly before it closed on Sunday.

www.npr.org

 

[Leon'sMom]

Thanks for the article. What a perversion of 2A 🤦🏻‍♂️

If some foreign invader became the #1 killer of our children, we would do something about it.

Really? You mean like Chinese produced fentanyl pouring over our southern border via mules or in counterfeit online-ordered medications? I, thankfully, don't know one person who's been killed with a gun. Yet I personally, unfortunately, know of several families who have been devastated by fentanyl.

When I see a gazillion fentanyl tablets (enough to kill us all if it was sprinkled into our drinking water source) smuggled over the border, the smuggler caught, and then some DA let them go free, am I not supposed to be outraged? When I see smugglers using unaccompanied minors as a shield to come across the border, raping them (babies and toddlers included) along the way and then abandoning them in the desert, am I not supposed to be outraged? When I see our government officials legalizing drugs (Oregon and Canada-Heroin), and de facto encouraging the use of any and all chemicals for recreational use, am I not to be concerned about the contamination of said drugs and the deaths that will ensue? When I see homeless, drug-addicted people roaming the streets of cities, using local stores as their personal pantries and piggybanks with no recourse for the business owners (many who close up shop) and no help given to the addicted, am I not to think this is insanity?

I don't want to live in a world of chaos and lawlessness. I don't want to walk amongst a whole population of chemically-altered zombies. Neither of those things is good for society. I can only do my part to speak with those around me and implore them not to experiment in any way, shape, or form with any chemicals. Unfortunately, my own government and a chunk of society is working against my message. All I can say to counter that is: 1) It's not worth playing Russian roulette with your life to get high one night. 2) Your government does not have your best interest in mind when they legalize these things. They see tax revenue, that's all. They see a stoned, passive populace, that's all. You cannot trust them. Just like you couldn't trust the Medical establishment when they pushed the lie that Oxycontin was non-addictive.

Anyone with 2 brain cells knew that Oxycontin was addictive. Yet, an entire medical establishment (education, training, practicing) were hoodwinked. Not all of us were hoodwinked, as some of us could see through the lies. But an entire generation of doctors were chugged out practicing medicine based on this lie. This lie was only possible because of corruption in the Pharma industry, the FDA process, the medical education system, and the medical training system. It is the biggest example I can give to prove to young people that they should not trust that the government or any establishment has their best interests in mind. Now we have the legal and justice system working against us to stop illegal drugs from flooding into our country. This is a crisis. This is an emergency. This is killing people every day. Why are we not shutting this down?

In my 57 years on this earth, I have never once seen an ad for a firearm. So, I don't think this is a big recruitment tool for the gun industry. If you want to know where I've seen the most guns it would be in movies. So go get your panties in a wad over your beloved Hollywood. They are the number one promoter of all things perverse.

 

[nimbus]

Really? You mean like Chinese produced fentanyl pouring over our southern border via mules or in counterfeit online-ordered medications? I, thankfully, don't know one person who's been killed with a gun. Yet I personally, unfortunately, know of several families who have been devastated by fentanyl.

When I see a gazillion fentanyl tablets (enough to kill us all if it was sprinkled into our drinking water source) smuggled over the border, the smuggler caught, and then some DA let them go free, am I not supposed to be outraged? When I see smugglers using unaccompanied minors as a shield to come across the border, raping them (babies and toddlers included) along the way and then abandoning them in the desert, am I not supposed to be outraged? When I see our government officials legalizing drugs (Oregon and Canada-Heroin), and de facto encouraging the use of any and all chemicals for recreational use, am I not to be concerned about the contamination of said drugs and the deaths that will ensue? When I see homeless, drug-addicted people roaming the streets of cities, using local stores as their personal pantries and piggybanks with no recourse for the business owners (many who close up shop) and no help given to the addicted, am I not to think this is insanity?

I don't want to live in a world of chaos and lawlessness. I don't want to walk amongst a whole population of chemically-altered zombies. Neither of those things is good for society. I can only do my part to speak with those around me and implore them not to experiment in any way, shape, or form with any chemicals. Unfortunately, my own government and a chunk of society is working against my message. All I can say to counter that is: 1) It's not worth playing Russian roulette with your life to get high one night. 2) Your government does not have your best interest in mind when they legalize these things. They see tax revenue, that's all. They see a stoned, passive populace, that's all. You cannot trust them. Just like you couldn't trust the Medical establishment when they pushed the lie that Oxycontin was non-addictive.

Anyone with 2 brain cells knew that Oxycontin was addictive. Yet, an entire medical establishment (education, training, practicing) were hoodwinked. Not all of us were hoodwinked, as some of us could see through the lies. But an entire generation of doctors were chugged out practicing medicine based on this lie. This lie was only possible because of corruption in the Pharma industry, the FDA process, the medical education system, and the medical training system. It is the biggest example I can give to prove to young people that they should not trust that the government or any establishment has their best interests in mind. Now we have the legal and justice system working against us to stop illegal drugs from flooding into our country. This is a crisis. This is an emergency. This is killing people every day. Why are we not shutting this down?

In my 57 years on this earth, I have never once seen an ad for a firearm. So, I don't think this is a big recruitment tool for the gun industry. If you want to know where I've seen the most guns it would be in movies. So go get your panties in a wad over your beloved Hollywood. They are the number one promoter of all things perverse.

I love fentanyl. It is a great drug. You may not use it but I can assure you that everybody else on this board uses it every day.

 

[Leon'sMom]

I love fentanyl. It is a great drug. You may not use it but I can assure you that everybody else on this board uses it every day.

If this was your attempt at humor, it fell flat. Someone dies every 5 minutes due to fentanyl overdose (poisoning of street drugs). Every 5 minutes.

 

[GravelRider]

Really? You mean like Chinese produced fentanyl pouring over our southern border via mules or in counterfeit online-ordered medications? I, thankfully, don't know one person who's been killed with a gun. Yet I personally, unfortunately, know of several families who have been devastated by fentanyl.

When I see a gazillion fentanyl tablets (enough to kill us all if it was sprinkled into our drinking water source) smuggled over the border, the smuggler caught, and then some DA let them go free, am I not supposed to be outraged? When I see smugglers using unaccompanied minors as a shield to come across the border, raping them (babies and toddlers included) along the way and then abandoning them in the desert, am I not supposed to be outraged? When I see our government officials legalizing drugs (Oregon and Canada-Heroin), and de facto encouraging the use of any and all chemicals for recreational use, am I not to be concerned about the contamination of said drugs and the deaths that will ensue? When I see homeless, drug-addicted people roaming the streets of cities, using local stores as their personal pantries and piggybanks with no recourse for the business owners (many who close up shop) and no help given to the addicted, am I not to think this is insanity?

I don't want to live in a world of chaos and lawlessness. I don't want to walk amongst a whole population of chemically-altered zombies. Neither of those things is good for society. I can only do my part to speak with those around me and implore them not to experiment in any way, shape, or form with any chemicals. Unfortunately, my own government and a chunk of society is working against my message. All I can say to counter that is: 1) It's not worth playing Russian roulette with your life to get high one night. 2) Your government does not have your best interest in mind when they legalize these things. They see tax revenue, that's all. They see a stoned, passive populace, that's all. You cannot trust them. Just like you couldn't trust the Medical establishment when they pushed the lie that Oxycontin was non-addictive.

Anyone with 2 brain cells knew that Oxycontin was addictive. Yet, an entire medical establishment (education, training, practicing) were hoodwinked. Not all of us were hoodwinked, as some of us could see through the lies. But an entire generation of doctors were chugged out practicing medicine based on this lie. This lie was only possible because of corruption in the Pharma industry, the FDA process, the medical education system, and the medical training system. It is the biggest example I can give to prove to young people that they should not trust that the government or any establishment has their best interests in mind. Now we have the legal and justice system working against us to stop illegal drugs from flooding into our country. This is a crisis. This is an emergency. This is killing people every day. Why are we not shutting this down?

In my 57 years on this earth, I have never once seen an ad for a firearm. So, I don't think this is a big recruitment tool for the gun industry. If you want to know where I've seen the most guns it would be in movies. So go get your panties in a wad over your beloved Hollywood. They are the number one promoter of all things perverse.

The opioid epidemic is also a story about marketing. Do not underestimate the power of marketing and advertising. Our biggest and most valuable corporations in the history of the planet are essentially avenues to get ads in front of people. The human brain is very easily manipulated. If you don’t think the gun industry is making billions off the advertising of deadly weapons to people who shouldn’t have them then you are naïve.

 

[pgg]

If this was your attempt at humor, it fell flat. Someone dies every 5 minutes due to fentanyl overdose (poisoning of street drugs). Every 5 minutes.

Prohibition and the glorious War On Drugs are generally supported by conservatives. They sure seem to be doing a bang-up job with that problem!

Maybe it's time to try something else.

The Gun Industry Created a New Consumer. Now It’s Killing Us.

Good marketing is supposed to generate demand. Bad firearms marketing has given us a national nightmare.

www.theatlantic.com

Here is a recent article written by a former executive of a gun manufacturer. He left the industry when he saw the transformation in how gun manufacturers advertise. In the article he talks about how gun marketing changed around 2010. It’s interesting that the firearm related injury line on the above graph began to swing upwards around that time. Maybe it’s a coincidence, but I am beginning to think more and more that gun manufacturer marketing techniques play an outsize role in many of the mass shootings and episodes of gun violence in America.

I swear I read that article (or maybe one just like it) a month or two ago. I think he's right about a lot of things. The marketing of manly manliness and tacticool gear to these LARPers is definitely distasteful. Amongst firearm-owning people, there's a well-recognized cohort of *****s who hang around gun shop counters and gun shows saying stupid things.

I'm obviously one of the most pro-2A people here, but I find much of that tacticool gun culture embarrassing. I used to see these guys at public ranges and part of me started weighing whether the odds of me getting shot by a negligent discharge was high enough that I should just leave, and part of me just didn't want to be around them (it didn't help that there was a high concentration of Trump cultists among them). Since we bought our new house and land, I can practice there, so I don't go to public ranges any more.

I think a lot of the modern American gun culture is a reflection of a broader trend since 9/11. A couple decades of nonstop war and a generation of people growing up seeing it, and being part of it and coming home remembering it, changes people. Look at how militarized the police have become. (A large % of the police are ex-military, for obvious reasons.) They've got tactical armored vehicles. They've gotten more and more aggressive no-knock warrant tactics that involve room breaches with flash bangs. More unintended consequences of the War On Terror.

The marketing amounts to promotion and glorification of a capability, but virtually never with any implied duty or responsibility. Look at the infamous Bushmaster "Man Card" advertisement - what duty or obligation, outside of massaging his own absurdly insecure self image, does a "Bushmaster Man" have? There isn't even a pretense of the "Bushmaster Man" being a protector, or defender of freedom, or stander upper to tyranny - it's just pathetic machismo, lookit me and lookit how tough I am.

There's certainly precedent for placing legal limits on marketing and advertising (e.g. tobacco and alcohol), but it's easy for such laws to run afoul of free speech and commerce. Maybe some state legislature will take a stab at it.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, regulation of marketing is one of the areas I'd be open to compromise with gun control advocates. But again my enthusiasm for compromise wanes since it's always a one way street.