I do it for the money

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Originally posted by Brand
These jobs DO NOT pay well. You are joking, right?

You peak at $90k after 15 years. This comes after working 70 hours a week, for at least your first 5 years. Of course they tell you stories about people making 200k after 5 years, but that is absolute bull****. Work in the corporate world for a few years and then tell me how much money you CAN'T make in business working for somebody, who works for somebody, who works for somebody, who works for somebody, who works for some dillhole behind a desk who ACTUALLY makes the money.



These are what you call pimps. You made a good choice with dentistry.

Yes, there is a general top off of anywhere from 60-120K in business. And yes, ML, SB, Amex are big name people who hire and fire as needed (another reason dentistry is so wonderful). But you're forgetting my point. 300K plus 4 years of 60K (240K) = 500K that i'm out over the course of 4 years. Yes, I will make that back over time no doubt, and then some! But I'm just saying that money can be had elsewhere besides dentistry.

Besides, those who make it big in business are either a$$holes who are very cutthroat and good at what they do, lucky, brown nose more than that kid in your undergrad O-Chem class sitting front/center, or all of the above. That kind of lifestyle is what made me want to do dentistry in the first place. Not to mention how much i enjoy everything I've experienced with dentistry before I applied.

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Originally posted by ItsGavinC
As if pre-clinical courses have anything to do with clinics anyways.

Please let me know what my OB/GYN course has to do with dental clinics, and then I'll stop regurgitating information for exams.

Gavin,

Sometimes you baffle me. Weren't you the one who was arguing that you should get the same education as an MD? Weren't you also saying how as a dentist you should be proficient at all parts of the body, not just the head/neck ?
 
Originally posted by drPheta
Besides, those who make it big in business are either a$$holes who are very cutthroat and good at what they do, lucky, brown nose more than that kid in your undergrad O-Chem class sitting front/center, or all of the above. That kind of lifestyle is what made me want to do dentistry in the first place. Not to mention how much i enjoy everything I've experienced with dentistry before I applied. [/B]

I think you're looking for the "corporate" label there, no thanks. Those guys do have some mean looking resumes though.

I don't think it's wrong to go into dentistry for the money, so long as you are a good clinician with descent business skills. Me, I like helping others and student loans.
 
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Originally posted by ShawnOne
Gavin,

Sometimes you baffle me. Weren't you the one who was arguing that you should get the same education as an MD? Weren't you also saying how as a dentist you should be proficient at all parts of the body, not just the head/neck ?

Shawn, I find it VERY important, but the scenario that Quantumhead presented was a different one.

He said that lazy students skip class and then look like idiots in the clinics.

My retort to that is that pre-clinical classes have little to do with the clinics, which is absolutely true. That doesn't mean the knowledge isn't valuable, however.

As an aside, it doesn't even mean that people who skip class DO look like idiots in the clinics.
 
Originally posted by mmapcpro
In Gavin's defense, he has said a few times that what he's learned in the past several weeks has changed alot of his original opinions and thoughts about dental school...

Mostly I've learned HOW I learn, which I'm finding is extremely important.

My views on dental education haven't changed much.

I'm finding myself, so to speak. But, I still LOVE this profession and LOVE those whom I've surrounded myself with at 'Zona.
 
I agree that people should find the way they learn best.

I have found in subjects like anatomy, I prefer to skip lectures and use the time and memorize the material myself. Other classes like organic chemistry, I would not miss a lecture under any circumstances. Having someone explain it and being able to ask questions really helps build confidence (i.e. mechanisms, physics concepts)

You dont always use the same tool in every situation, right?
 
10 ways to make money in your office!

#10 Charge patients to use the rest room

# 9 Do the Fluoride rinse without informed consent (this is already happening!)

#8 Have Slot machines in the waiting room!

#7 Sell the bling bling teeth to wanna-be rappers

#6 Serve caviar and wine with every prophy! (before of course)

#5 Buy one root canal get one free!

#4 Include free tickets with every visit to see Siegfried and Roy with the white tigers in Vegas!(cancelled because the tigers ate one of them up!)

#3 Take on one of the Major LEague Hockey teams as patients.

#2 Have a roller coaster built in your waiting room

#1 Practice in California and have Arnold use the budget for his Dental Work!
 
I'm not going to front: money is a HUGE factor for going into dentistry. If I said otherwise, I'd be lying.
 
busupshot83 said:
I'm not going to front: money is a HUGE factor for going into dentistry. If I said otherwise, I'd be lying.


Again, I'll say:
I don't think it's wrong to go into dentistry for the money, so long as you are a good clinician with descent business skills. Me, I like helping others, blood, fecal matter, and student loans. Should be fun!
 
I am in it for the business side of the field more... nothing is better than running your own business, and being your own boss.

So yes, $$$ make Dentistry more attractive to persue, without it... It would be like a Red Sox game in Boston without their fans. :(
 
Mo007 said:
I am in it for the business side of the field more... nothing is better than running your own business, and being your own boss.

So yes, $$$ make Dentistry more attractive to persue, without it... It would be like a Red Sox game in Boston without their fans. :(

Just curious....a friend of mine is stuck on a problem....he wants to eventually 'have his own business', but he also want to do something health care related, but can't reconcile the two.

This and other threads on the dental forum got me thinking about his problem. I noticed a lot of people on the dental boards are very intersted in the business aspect of dentistry and I wonder if dentistry is more business oriented than other health care fields?

My friend wants to combine his interest in the health care fields with his interest in the business field. This and other threads made me realize that dentistry might be the most 'business-oriented' of all the health fields. Do you agree?
 
I'm not sure about that. Don't podiatrists and chiropractors often own their own business too?
 
busupshot83 said:
I'm not sure about that. Don't podiatrists and chiropractors often own their own business too?

I guess I never thought about podiatrists, and I dont' typically categorize chiropractors as medical practioners (even though they are).

I just found it interesting that med school students tend not to discuss the economics of medicine as much as dental students. I guess this stems from the 'ER' stereotype we have of physicians all working in hospitals.

But back to my original question....do most people consider dentistry to be foremost a business profession?
 
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I think that most premeds don't have the balls to say that they are doing it for the money. They've been bombarded their whole college career with, "You should only do it if you want to help people." In reality, if you made a physician's salary comparable to that of an elementary school teacher, hardly anyone would sacrifice so much for so little in return. There's nothing wrong with being a dentist for the money, as long as you're happy and good at what you do. I'll get off my soapbox, I guess I'm just tired of the hypocracy.
 
Calculus1 said:
I think that most premeds don't have the balls to say that they are doing it for the money. They've been bombarded their whole college career with, "You should only do it if you want to help people." In reality, if you made a physician's salary comparable to that of an elementary school teacher, hardly anyone would sacrifice so much for so little in return. There's nothing wrong with being a dentist for the money, as long as you're happy and good at what you do. I'll get off my soapbox, I guess I'm just tired of the hypocracy.


This is one of the biggest differences I see among pre-meds and pre-dents. Just go to the pre-allopathic forums and you will see that you can scarcely have a conversation like this without 25 pre-meds swooping down at you calling you a greedy a$$hole for even discussing the financial prospects of medicine. Everyone loves to pretend they're doing it to save humanity when in reality the vast majority of them want the combination of the money and feeding of their hungry egos.

I think the reason they say "you should only do it if you want to help people" is because going through all the crap they put you through isn't worth it for the relatively meager sums that some physicians make on a per hour basis. However many pre-meds still disregard this advice and look at the big number that they might make at the end of 8-10 years, and go through it all for the money. That's why quite a few physicians will tell you that if they could do it over again, they would do something else.
 
At the same time....some people out of college make 60K already. I'll have to pay 60K for 4 years (with loans of course), add interest to that, and possibly pay for another 2 or so years for a post-grad program. Not sure when i'll actually be making a good amount.
 
sxr71 said:
That's why quite a few physicians will tell you that if they could do it over again, they would do something else.

Quite few other healthcare professionals will also tell you the same thing. But I totally agree with many pre-physicians' false attitude towards their profession.
 
Ok, I didn't want to turn this into a premed bashing fest....just wanted to know if dentistry is more of a business oriented field than medicine or not.

Perhaps all the premeds in all your schools are money grubbing hypocrites, but I don't see premeds having a monopoly on that.

Personally, I've never really considered the business side of medicine in part due to a stereotype of working in a hospital (and that the physicians I've talked to never alluded to the difficulties of maintaining a clinic).

Most premeds I know don't think of themselves as business owners, even if they intend on running their clinics........it's just something I've never heard talked about that much, but I noticed some dental students have said one of the reasons they wanted to do dentistry is do own their own business. So I was wondering if dentistry has more business demands than the medical profession.

There are hypocrites in every field, people go into a field for money in everything...medicine is just a field some people feel uncomfortable talking about money with. I agree that there seems to be a disproportionate number of people in the premed forum that will disparge people who say they are going into it for the money.....but to me, for dental students to say that of premed students is like the pot calling the kettle black. :laugh:

I mean, I know people who go into social work who also find the talk about money distasteful, b/c they consider it a 'noble field'! So....

can anyone asnwer my original question, or do you guys want to continue the premed bashfest? :rolleyes:
 
I think dentistry can be more business oriented in that very few dentists are employees. Most are solo practicioners and are solely responsible for ensuring the financial viability of their office. Dentistry has remained a cottage industry while medicine to a large extent has been conglomerated. Since many physicians are employed by a hospital or group practice IMHO they might lack that ownership mindset that would motivate them to be more involved in business activities. I would doubt if the radiologist cares what the new CT scan machine costs because the hospital paid for it, but you better believe the dentist is going to do a cost analysis on every piece of equipment he/she gets because he's writing the check.

I also think that since dentistry has had less invasion from managed care that dentists are more able to use business savy to increase their bottom line. We have a wider lattitude in setting a fee schedule since it's not dictated by what HMO's will pay. We have an incentive to produce a happy customer (patient) so they want to come back again. Hospitals usually are the only game in town (at least in smaller towns) and people go wherever their insurance tells them to.

Lastly medicine is seen (right or wrong) as a birthright in this country. A lot of people see it as distasteful to talk about making money off of other people's sickness. Dentistry at least for now is seen as optional and thus it's less offensive to talk about making a profit at it.

If you want a medical field that probably also requires more of a business accumen the closest I can think of would be plastic surgery b/c it's not need based and there's less insurance influence.

If you want to see who's got the market cornered on greed take a look at the attorneys!

JMHO
Rob
 
Calculus1 said:
I think that most premeds don't have the balls to say that they are doing it for the money. They've been bombarded their whole college career with, "You should only do it if you want to help people." In reality, if you made a physician's salary comparable to that of an elementary school teacher, hardly anyone would sacrifice so much for so little in return. There's nothing wrong with being a dentist for the money, as long as you're happy and good at what you do. I'll get off my soapbox, I guess I'm just tired of the hypocracy.

Great post Calc! I agree with you. :thumbup:
 
no2thdk999 said:
I think dentistry can be more business oriented in that very few dentists are employees. Most are solo practicioners and are solely responsible for ensuring the financial viability of their office. Dentistry has remained a cottage industry while medicine to a large extent has been conglomerated. Since many physicians are employed by a hospital or group practice IMHO they might lack that ownership mindset that would motivate them to be more involved in business activities. I would doubt if the radiologist cares what the new CT scan machine costs because the hospital paid for it, but you better believe the dentist is going to do a cost analysis on every piece of equipment he/she gets because he's writing the check.

I also think that since dentistry has had less invasion from managed care that dentists are more able to use business savy to increase their bottom line. We have a wider lattitude in setting a fee schedule since it's not dictated by what HMO's will pay. We have an incentive to produce a happy customer (patient) so they want to come back again. Hospitals usually are the only game in town (at least in smaller towns) and people go wherever their insurance tells them to.

Lastly medicine is seen (right or wrong) as a birthright in this country. A lot of people see it as distasteful to talk about making money off of other people's sickness. Dentistry at least for now is seen as optional and thus it's less offensive to talk about making a profit at it.

If you want a medical field that probably also requires more of a business accumen the closest I can think of would be plastic surgery b/c it's not need based and there's less insurance influence.

If you want to see who's got the market cornered on greed take a look at the attorneys!

JMHO
Rob


Thanks....at last, an answer. I can see your point. Dentistry is more of a cottage industry still, so most dentists own and run their practice by themselves. That is a huge financial risk for most and they probably worry about as much or more the business side as they do about the patient side.

I guess the physicians I have talked with are mostly hospital affliated, and don't see need to worry as much about the costs involved.

I think you made a really good point that since dentistry is considered a "luxury", people find it less offensive to hear dentists talk about money.

But I think the distaste for money in medicine stems from another reason, and that is the perceived overcompensation of doctor. B/c doctors, in the eyes of society, are well compensated, they look greedy to complain about being underpaid for performing life saving procedures, which, as you stated, is considered a 'right', and not a 'luxury'.

In my parents' native country, doctors talk about money all the time, and this is in part due to their poor compensation. Nurses have a greater tendency to discuss their pay, and I think it's b/c they know they are so underpaid.

Both of these factors, I think contributes to the premed attitude that talking about money as it relates to medicine is in poor taste.

Of course, I would like to consider more open minded about the decisions in my life. Money is definintely a factor in any career related decision I make, and it is a factor in my decision to go into medicine.....but I also consider my interest in science, my love of learning, and yes, the infamous, "I want to help people" (more like I want to interact with people) to be an even more important reasons. Sorry, if that sounds too pretentious and hypocritical! :laugh:
 
Four years of medical school and I have a younger brother who is graduating the same year with me. I attempted PhD work between 2nd and 3rd year and stopped when I saw my younger bro would graduate earlier than me. So here is the thing on medicine or medical school.

yes I went into it to help humanity. No I didn't feel I should be concerned with how much money I make since money usually came along with the prestige and euphoric feeling that you are helping people. At least I won't starve as a physician.

REALITY is. HMO really sucks and managed care and big egos and politics altogether makes the investment into medical school as a neverending credit card debt. People die and liability issues arise and docs with big egos fight and someone get fired or malpractice insurance goes up. Don't get me wrong there are great doctors and idols I looked up to in medical school but to hell with the bad personality and big egos and brain busting pride medical students and attendings and all. AND IN THE END I wondered why did I go to medical school?? Was it to help people and not care about the money??? Actually I NOW CARE ABOUT THE MONEY CAUSE THE TIME AND EFFORT AND MASSIVE HEART ACHE I GOT IN MEDICAL SCHOOL and could get again in residency and afterwards trying to find a firm/group practice to finally pay off so much debt IS WORTH LESS THAN the stool sample of patients. SO I SAID TO HELL WITH INTERNAL MEDICINE AND DIABETIC TYPE TWO OBESE PATIENTS. I rather drill teeth and make at least 6 figures without dealing with the HMO eating into my salary.

THERE YOU HAVE IT MY 2 cents.
 
vietho26 said:
Four years of medical school and I have a younger brother who is graduating the same year with me. I attempted PhD work between 2nd and 3rd year and stopped when I saw my younger bro would graduate earlier than me. So here is the thing on medicine or medical school.

yes I went into it to help humanity. No I didn't feel I should be concerned with how much money I make since money usually came along with the prestige and euphoric feeling that you are helping people. At least I won't starve as a physician.

REALITY is. HMO really sucks and managed care and big egos and politics altogether makes the investment into medical school as a neverending credit card debt. People die and liability issues arise and docs with big egos fight and someone get fired or malpractice insurance goes up. Don't get me wrong there are great doctors and idols I looked up to in medical school but to hell with the bad personality and big egos and brain busting pride medical students and attendings and all. AND IN THE END I wondered why did I go to medical school?? Was it to help people and not care about the money??? Actually I NOW CARE ABOUT THE MONEY CAUSE THE TIME AND EFFORT AND MASSIVE HEART ACHE I GOT IN MEDICAL SCHOOL and could get again in residency and afterwards trying to find a firm/group practice to finally pay off so much debt IS WORTH LESS THAN the stool sample of patients. SO I SAID TO HELL WITH INTERNAL MEDICINE AND DIABETIC TYPE TWO OBESE PATIENTS. I rather drill teeth and make at least 6 figures without dealing with the HMO eating into my salary.

THERE YOU HAVE IT MY 2 cents.

That's the truth man. Good post.
 
After reading this thread, it seems as though there are many different perspectives and you know what I figured, you're all right! Everyone has their reasons to go into a particular field. Should it matter why they do what they do? Especially with dentistry where applicants are screened based on academics and interview. Even if a person is in it for the money if they got the grades and the competency, why should not they be allowed into the profession? Just because AN INDIVIDUAL OR GROUPS OF INDIVIDUALS believe that they don't have the "RIGHT MOTIVATION?" The only groups of individuals who matter are those in the dental school admissions themselves. If a person can get past that screen, more or less they have the ability to be a good dentist. If a person truly doesn't like what it is they do, they will just be miserable and unhappy. It doesn't really affect other dentists that enjoy their work..... You can't really argue about how those people bring down the profession because in the economic world you will always have people in every field that do very well and do very poorly.

Dentistry in my opinion is not an easy profession, there is skill required and great responsibility involved. That's where the money comes from. I say whatever motivates you. if you think dentistry is right for you for whatever reason and you choose to pursue it, then all should be valid. We live in a society where everyone has the right to do as they wish. With that said there are consequences with such actions. HOwever, if one truly understands this, then it shouldn't matter what other people think nor should it matter the intention the person has.

I don't believe in altruism or believe that it is very rare. I consider myself a very practical person and I'm doing the career that gives me the most interest gained and least amount of expenses. Dentistry appeals to me because the money is good, the hours are good, and it is in an area of my interest. It is also nice that I get to help people because that is what I like to do. I have always helped people throughout my life voluntarily..does that mean I'm altruistic? No. Because I STILL GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT. I get respect out of it, I get thanked, I get reference letters, even though I may or may not care for it consciously, subconsciously it may be a motivating factor. So that's why I say f*** the intention and reason. You be your own person and decide what you want. Do what is best for yourself. Of course I don't mean at the expense of others. No one should judge whether or not someone's motivation is more legit than another, you cannot assess who is right or wrong for issues that involve situations that have no right or wrong answers.

However, having said that, there is a new "golden rule" in the capitalist society, "he who has the gold makes the rules." Therefore, money gives you power, power gives you control (whether it be control over ideology etc. You create ideology of what personal traits a good dentist should have and people will believe you because of your credibility). Dentists make good money and are well respect in the community...I'll let you come to the conclusion..
 
I cant believe Im saying this, but good post Woodsy.....well up until that money gives you power stuff.....i agree that in a capitalist society, this is the case......doesnt mean you have to follow it though....
 
avingupta said:
I cant believe Im saying this, but good post Woodsy.....well up until that money gives you power stuff.....i agree that in a capitalist society, this is the case......doesnt mean you have to follow it though....

I agree, da' Woods was really insightful.
 
Lot's of good points there. I agree the hypocracy is huge esp. in health fields as to why someone chooses a field or not. Propbably stems from our societal stigma we place on money. People find it inherently offensive for you to like it, yet we all spend it, even when we don't have it (credit cards). There is absolutley nothing wrong with likeing moola. In the health fields however, I can see shy people tend to shy away from the reason why the choose a field or not. We all want to think that our MD's place the well being of people above everything else, and they are there for the patient, not the paycheck. Reality is, some are, some aren't... and nothing is wrong with either one as long as they are capable of doing a sound job.
 
hafido said:
Lot's of good points there. I agree the hypocracy is huge esp. in health fields as to why someone chooses a field or not. Propbably stems from our societal stigma we place on money. People find it inherently offensive for you to like it, yet we all spend it, even when we don't have it (credit cards). There is absolutley nothing wrong with likeing moola. In the health fields however, I can see shy people tend to shy away from the reason why the choose a field or not. We all want to think that our MD's place the well being of people above everything else, and they are there for the patient, not the paycheck. Reality is, some are, some aren't... and nothing is wrong with either one as long as they are capable of doing a sound job.

There IS something wrong with being totally paycheck-driven. If you have a practitioner who likes money and can do a sound job, what if the practitioner has financial pressures that forces him/her to do something unethical, like pushing a patient to undergo elective treatment, which the practitioner might be able to perform soundly but the procedure itself may not be necessary?

Reality is that ALL practitioners need to have a certain degree of moral character, if we want to ensure continued public trust in our professional opinions and judgment. That's not hypocrisy at all.

This is why health practitioners cannot be totally profit-driven. EVERY practitioner needs to maintain a balance between the desire for money and a patient's best interests. When that balance is upset, bad things happen.
 
You are referring to integrity, which, I agree has to be there. I am referring to a professional's motivation to go into a particular job. Just because someone likes money does not mean that they will stoop to immoral or unethical acts to attain it.
 
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