Husband wife MD/PA team

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EMDream

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My husband is a FP PGY-1 I'm a hospitalist PA (very little oversight). I'm wondering about the logistics of us practicing together when he's done. Does this sound financially lucrative? I have no idea how much a PA brings in to most practices OP. I know I bill at something like 85% as a IP provider. Currently I make 95k/yr working 4 10's a week. Anyone have any knowledge of it would be that much more income? I've been seriously wanting to go back to medical school because I've hit the glass ceiling with my career but wondering if that's just stupid for the debt if I can have as much autonomy as I want working with my husband anyways...
Thoughts?

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You are a PA, you shouldn't be autonomous for the safety of patients! You DID NOT attend medical school and DID NOT do a residency. Medicine isn't a cookbook..............treatment of pneumonia, copd exacerbation etc. and other 'bread and butter' medicine can be safely practiced by PA's, however under no situations should you be AUTONOMOUS! If something goes wrong that you didn't encounter in your life, YOUR HUSBAND'S M.D. license will be revoked, not yours.

You went to school for 2 years after a bachelor's degree, and did NO residency.

Unbelievable! So many people want to play 'DR' but don't want to work for it.
 
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You are a PA, you shouldn't be autonomous for the safety of patients! You DID NOT attend medical school and DID NOT do a residency. Medicine isn't a cookbook..............treatment of pneumonia, copd exacerbation etc. and other 'bread and butter' medicine can be safely practiced by PA's, however under no situations should you be AUTONOMOUS! If something goes wrong that you didn't encounter in your life, YOUR HUSBAND'S M.D. license will be revoked, not yours.

You went to school for 2 years after a bachelor's degree, and did NO residency.

Unbelievable! So many people want to play 'DR' but don't want to work for it.

WOW u mad bro? Seems like you have an axe to grind against physician extenders. Did a nurse make you look dumb today? I took the OP's "autonomy" to mean she would have a lot more flexibility with schedule and finances by teaming up with her husband, especially considering she spoke about the glass ceiling to her income

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Then again, what can you expect from "Joisey"

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My husband is a FP PGY-1 I'm a hospitalist PA (very little oversight). I'm wondering about the logistics of us practicing together when he's done. Does this sound financially lucrative? I have no idea how much a PA brings in to most practices OP. I know I bill at something like 85% as a IP provider. Currently I make 95k/yr working 4 10's a week. Anyone have any knowledge of it would be that much more income? I've been seriously wanting to go back to medical school because I've hit the glass ceiling with my career but wondering if that's just stupid for the debt if I can have as much autonomy as I want working with my husband anyways...
Thoughts?

Wow, dual meme-d. Danga.

I agree though, I took this to mean that the OP was inquiring as to the fiscal solvency of a husband/wife MD/PA team, not if she could piggy-back off his degree (and get herself and him into trouble).
 
You are a PA, you shouldn't be autonomous for the safety of patients! You DID NOT attend medical school and DID NOT do a residency. Medicine isn't a cookbook..............treatment of pneumonia, copd exacerbation etc. and other 'bread and butter' medicine can be safely practiced by PA's, however under no situations should you be AUTONOMOUS! If something goes wrong that you didn't encounter in your life, YOUR HUSBAND'S M.D. license will be revoked, not yours.

You went to school for 2 years after a bachelor's degree, and did NO residency.

Unbelievable! So many people want to play 'DR' but don't want to work for it.

Dude, why are you so angry?

Anyhow, I'm interested in this question too if anybody has any good advice. I'm out of residency, my wife will finish NP training in December and I'm wondering how we can maximize our income by working together in our own solo practice.
 
1) Write your state medical board to see if they are any issues against it. Suck to get the ball rolling for such plans only to learn it isn't possible.
1a) Less so an issue with (D)NP depending on the state (I'm holding back my strong opinions here).
2) Bigger issue beyond the yes/no can it be done type question, is how well do you communicate with your spouse?
2a) Can you sit down and discuss the nature that at the end of the day you will be the boss? Can you discuss how your oversight will take place? What if you want a more frequent staffing/chart review? What if you want to limit to certain patients and your midlevel spouse wants more autonomy?
2b) Can you discuss beforehand a plan of how you will end your working relationship? Or if you realize you can't work together will you internalize it and blame your spouse, ultimately letting your work damage your marriage? Are you prepared to deal with that possibility?
2c) Then there is the shear volume of time you will spend with your spouse. How much personal time do you need away from them? How much daily contact can you handle? Likely you'll commute to work together. Can you handle that? Imagine the silence you used to have to yourself every morning/evening when driving was time to jam out to music, now might be taken up with why johny isn't doing well in school or a continuation of the argument you started just after you finished your eggs...
3) Time wasting. If you are commuting together, now both of you get tied up in running grocery errands. Both are now stopping to get milk. Both are now running to the post office, etc...
4) Patient transfers in your practice. "Dr. Smith, you are so much better than your wife!" "Nurse Smith, you are so much better than your husband!" What if one of you frequently has patients requesting a transfer of care to the other?
5) Business decisions. What if the physician in the practice is more hard lined or loose with patient billing and you are the opposite? Can you establish protocols ahead of time? And then what if one of you isn't following the office protocols? Can you bring up and even 'disclipline' the other?
6) Money. Are you going to pay each a true salary? Or is what's mine is yours and it goes in a dual account?
7) Call. Who does it? What's fair? Is that really fair?
8) What if the midlevel gets 'bored' and wants to utilize their ability to laterally transfer to a different specialty? "Hey, honey, I um, really don't want to work with you anymore... I want to go do cool specialty X." Will the spouse feel as though you are personally rejecting them?
9) Being sued. If you are being sued by a patient treated by the mid level spouse, will the Physician spouse place blame on the spouse? Being sued is already an incredibly stressful process and physicians are notorious for internalizing it as a reflection of them and their skills. Now if the midlevel is being sued, imagine the stress BOTH spouses could internalize or project on the other...


Any time you work with a spouse or family you should first take stock in how well you communicate with each other, how well you trust each other, and discuss all the 'oh crap' scenarios you can think of.
 
Sneezing is for real. Think really hard about this. Ideally the two of you could both be hired by a large group practice and the PA charts would be reviewed by another doc. This would give you some space, allow you to take vacations together, and I truly don't believe you'd have trouble finding someone to hire both of you in primary care. Myself, I don't know how I would feel reviewing any PA's charts right out of residency, while establishing my own patient panel, and there is NO way I would review my spouse's charts. Don't want to get into why he prescribed X drug to Pt. Y. It is really hard to question decisions without ever arguing. That can be fun with the right person, but not when you're emotionally involved.
 
My husband is a FP PGY-1 I'm a hospitalist PA (very little oversight). I'm wondering about the logistics of us practicing together when he's done. Does this sound financially lucrative? I have no idea how much a PA brings in to most practices OP. I know I bill at something like 85% as a IP provider. Currently I make 95k/yr working 4 10's a week. Anyone have any knowledge of it would be that much more income? I've been seriously wanting to go back to medical school because I've hit the glass ceiling with my career but wondering if that's just stupid for the debt if I can have as much autonomy as I want working with my husband anyways...
Thoughts?


The glass ceiling: In economics, the term glass ceiling refers to "the unseen, yet unbreachable barrier that keeps minorities and women from rising to the upper rungs of the corporate ladder, regardless of their qualifications or achievements."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_ceiling


You say you make $ 95,000 / year? This is approaching the top of your payscale, according to a few salary surveys:

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Physician_Assistant_(PA)/Salary
http://www1.salary.com/Physician-Assistant-Medical-salary.html
http://medicalassistantsalaryinfo.net/physician-assistant-salary/


Hmmm.

I don't see how this "glass ceiling" is in effect here.

This type of persecutory complex pisses me off, particularly when I have international medical graduates in my clinic trying to get into the medical system. These DOCTORS currently work as cab drivers, waiters and cashiers. I can tell you; they ain’t making no 95 large. They came to North America because their native country was getting the **** bombed out if it.
 
Those #s look about right for primary care pa's but are low for specialty pa's.
the last em pa salary survey( 2009 I think) had 48.5% of em pa's making > 100k/yr:
http://www.sempa.org/resources/salary-benefits-data
personally I don't know any empa's that make less than 110k with most making around 125k/yr or so. the top producing pa in my group(not me) made 200k last yr working lots of shifts(like 24/mo or so).
 
My husband is a FP PGY-1 I'm a hospitalist PA (very little oversight). I'm wondering about the logistics of us practicing together when he's done. Does this sound financially lucrative? I have no idea how much a PA brings in to most practices OP. I know I bill at something like 85% as a IP provider. Currently I make 95k/yr working 4 10's a week. Anyone have any knowledge of it would be that much more income? I've been seriously wanting to go back to medical school because I've hit the glass ceiling with my career but wondering if that's just stupid for the debt if I can have as much autonomy as I want working with my husband anyways...
Thoughts?

If you go into private practice together, it could be really profitable financially for both of you and allow you to be very autonomous & flexible. While I know I'm gonna be flamed for saying this, in reality an FP physician doesn't bring in that much more revenue to a practice than a PA working in FP. This is because in family practice a PA's scope of practice (as in what he/she is legally able to do) is near identical to na FP physician in many ways. So, as long as you are adequately trained & overseen by your husband to practice medicine, you can bill at 85% of the physician rate. While you make currently make 95k right now, you bring in to your hospital much more then that, probably atleast another 95k-100k profit after accounting for your overhead and salary. By being in your own (or husband's) practice, you & your husband can capitalize on every cent you bill for.

Just a thought.
 
Those #s look about right for primary care pa's but are low for specialty pa's.
the last em pa salary survey( 2009 I think) had 48.5% of em pa's making > 100k/yr:
http://www.sempa.org/resources/salary-benefits-data
personally I don't know any empa's that make less than 110k with most making around 125k/yr or so. the top producing pa in my group(not me) made 200k last yr working lots of shifts(like 24/mo or so).

No wonder the American system is screwbuggered.
 
This type of persecutory complex pisses me off...
And this entire diatribe proves meaningless if you just take out the word "glass" from the original post. I'm sure she didn't mean to imply she was being "discriminated" against for any reason other than her current level of training.

Do people take a rage pill before coming on SDN these days, or what?
 
And this entire diatribe proves meaningless if you just take out the word "glass" from the original post. I'm sure she didn't mean to imply she was being "discriminated" against for any reason other than her current level of training.

Do people take a rage pill before coming on SDN these days, or what?

And you know this how?
 
Working for your husband is inadvisable for at least two reasons.

Professionally speaking, supervising one's spouse in a medical capacity presents an inherent conflict of interest which could prove troublesome in the event of an untoward outcome or lawsuit. Most practices have banned nepotism for this reason.

From a financial standpoint, your household income would likely be higher if you could negotiate a higher salary in another practice, and your husband could hire a PA (if needed) at a lower salary than he would otherwise feel obligated to pay you. Any money you draw from your husband's practice is essentially just shifting funds from him to you.
 
Damn, Blue Dog, for looking at just the bottom line you nailed it. I didn't think of those points. Nice analysis.
 
Absolutely agree with BlueDog. IF you and your husband wish to go into practice together and IF you can actually stand spending that much time with each other he MUST NOT be your SP. That relationship is it's own kind of marriage but it doesn't belong in YOUR marriage. Too damn complicated for all the reasons mentioned above, and absolutely a conflict of interest. I have no problem with you working together as partners if someone else is the supervising physician.
Where I have seen this work best in physician-PA marriages is when they are hired by a group. Still a bit of an issue for everyone else's vacation and call coverage but better.
And if you really want to go back to med school, it can certainly be done, but I must warn you there is so much more to learn still and it IS expensive. I talked myself out of it for a decade. But it's fun!
On another topic: $95k may well be hitting the financial glass ceiling for a female PA depending on region. And EMEDPA, lest you forget, this EM PA has never made more than $105k/yr and that was working 200-220 hr/mo to do it. For me it does make financial sense to just finish med school because I am young enough to get a decent return on my investment...but I too had to get over the financial barrier before I was ready to make the leap.
Best of luck
Lisa PA-C, OMS-1
 
Lisa- I think your pay was more about where you worked and your scope of practice than your gender. I have never seen an ad that said empa's wanted; males 125k, females 105k...:)
we pay all of our pa's based on hours worked + production. a pa in our group working 220 hrs/mo would make well over 200k/yr(and one does....crazy bastard)
 
Thanks for all the replies.
The bottom line is I have been struggling with staying as a pa or going to medical school. But it seems senseless to acquire the debt if I could make similar income without the degree. As far as autonomy let me describe my current position. As a hospitalist PA I ask a physician to review a patient with me perhaps once or twice a month. I consult with specialty consultants as needed. I am very comfortable managing non icu patients and my supervising physician/s are comfortable with my skill. With no element of ego, I will say I am on the brighter end of mid-levels, the primary reason for this is I self educate with evidence based literature relentlessly, long after the day is over. I know there are those of you will cannot believe, do not want to believe that my knowledge could possibly equivocate an MD,s but there are many MDs in our group that I have to correct their errors, and I wonder how they could NOT know some fairly basic tenets of internal medicine.
You don't know me and if you've had a negative experience with midlevels you are bound to be suspect. I know my husband has a fairly poor view of many midlevels from experience, both NPs and PAs, and many NPs and pas probably should not be autonomous. But there is a subset of us that, through experience and intellect can and do practice autonomously despite what the title denotes because it is a WASTE of (billable) time to babysit us. I didn't come to this conclusion on my own, many many physicians have expressed this to both some of my brighter colleagues and myself. Both fortunately and unfortunately my husband and I have a better intellectual/collegial relationship than romantic, we constantly review our interesting, difficult cases at the end of the day and often come up with better differentials for the next time. I would not work side by side with him or be directly supervised, but I assure you I do not fear asking a question when a difficult case arises and clearly there will be a learning curve for me on peds and OB patients. He will bounce things off of me as much as I off him, I have years of IM experience over him. This wasn't a supervision debate but I felt I needed to say my piece despite the flame war that will undoubtedly ensue.

My question remains the same, I wonder how lucrative it would be for us to be in practice together, but other than a few of the responses above that addressed that question I think we'll just have to do it and see.
 
Also excuse typos, not used to iPad keyboard quite yet.
 
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