hpsp - 4 years and out

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DatInterviewDood

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pros:

no student debt
service to the U.S.
adventure/leadership training?

In the best case scenario, I could finish residency and serve out my years in a decent/safe place then transition into civilian world.

cons:

extra training/obligations
deployment
no freedom on where to train

In the worst case scenario, I could GMO for 4 years in a dangerous place and then transition into the civilian world. (I guess in the worst case I could die)

A mix of the worst/best case scenarios could occur too. Is HPSP worth it for a 4 and out future plan?

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That is basically the gist of 90% of the forum here. And it depends upon who you ask. If you ask me, you're missing a ton of cons. Check out some of the other threads.
 
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A mix of the worst/best case scenarios could occur too. Is HPSP worth it for a 4 and out future plan?

most likely it would be a mix. and some years may be good, some years bad. some people's entire careers are forrest gump-like. others like LT Dan. the "is it worth it" question has too many variables to it to genuinely answer succinctly. it's been asked before, I'd search the forums for similar posts/threads and you'll find some of the questions you should first ask yourself and clarify where you stand and what you can tolerate. then come back and ask some more specific questions and we can give you some feedback.

-- your friendly neighborhood get your forum research on caveman
 
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pros:

no student debt
service to the U.S.
adventure/leadership training?

In the best case scenario, I could finish residency and serve out my years in a decent/safe place then transition into civilian world.

cons:

extra training/obligations
deployment
no freedom on where to train

In the worst case scenario, I could GMO for 4 years in a dangerous place and then transition into the civilian world. (I guess in the worst case I could die)

A mix of the worst/best case scenarios could occur too. Is HPSP worth it for a 4 and out future plan?
If you consider deployment to be a con then don't join the military.
 
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OP this is how I feel, too. I'm also planning on doing the GMO and out route.

Here are the pros in my book (similar to yours):
  1. Surrounded by conservatives. I won't have to feel like a reprehensible human being just because I believe in that destroying fetuses is wrong.
  2. Serving my country. For all of its faults, America is still the greatest country on Earth and I am proud of my country.
  3. Net positive money from here on out. This means that I don't have to feel guilty for any little thing that I spend my money on. As long as there's money left in the bank, I'm good. For someone like me who knows next to nothing about finances, this is huge. It's basically giving me 10+ years of my life back to stop worrying about finances.
  4. Adventure. The possibility of deploying some place cool (Italy, Japan, etc.). If not, I'll at least have the money to go on vacations that I wouldn't have been able to go on otherwise as a resident. (I personally wouldn't feel comfortable going on vacations until my debt is paid off).
  5. Seems to be an advantage for residency apps. Look at all the old posts from people who took the GMO and out route. Can't find anyone who says that their military experience was looked on as anything but positive by PD's.
  6. Even once I'm out, it will forever be a networking opportunity for me to get connected with former HPSP'ers.
Things that put the HPSP into perspective for me:
  1. A few countries I know of (Korea, Taiwan) require their adult male citizens to serve at least 2 years in the military, and they don't even get anything from it. Meanwhile, I will be getting 4 years of medical school paid for and I will only have to serve 2 more years than those people do. Or you could do the 3 year route and only serve 3 years (1 year more than them)
  2. MD/PhD students get less pay and spend the same amount of time (4 years) doing research. I abhor research. At the very least, 4 years in the military seems much more palatable to me than 4 years doing research.
 
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1. Surrounded by conservatives. I won't have to feel like a reprehensible human being just because I believe in that destroying fetuses is wrong.

this is your #1. dear god. the military may have a higher percentage of right wing christian gun nuts in the combatant units but the population of doctors tends to be more centrist. surrounding yourself in an echo chamber is rarely a good idea, but I must admit I give you points for being the first person to use this as a "pro" for HPSP. is this "destroy fetus" belief based on a human rights sort of thing? because the military has a track record of killing all sorts of people, of which there are a measureable number of innocent civilians. fetuses typically turn into kids, then adults, but I find most anti-abortion conservatives don't place the same value on the end result of the fetus when it looks or believes differently than they do.

2. Serving my country. For all of its faults, America is still the greatest country on Earth and I am proud of my country.

serving your country-- legit reason. "greatest country on earth"-- fits with your #1. depends on what you are defining as great. health care? wealth inequality? access to birth control (dovetailing with your #1, since you appear to be vehemently anti-abortion). defense spending-- definitely.

3. Net positive money from here on out. This means that I don't have to feel guilty for any little thing that I spend my money on. As long as there's money left in the bank, I'm good. For someone like me who knows next to nothing about finances, this is huge. It's basically giving me 10+ years of my life back to stop worrying about finances.

as long as you have money, you're good. but you admit you know next to nothing about finances. where's my facepalm meme?
4. Adventure. The possibility of deploying some place cool (Italy, Japan, etc.). If not, I'll at least have the money to go on vacations that I wouldn't have been able to go on otherwise as a resident. (I personally wouldn't feel comfortable going on vacations until my debt is paid off).

it's definitely an "adventure" lol. you don't deploy to Italy or Japan. you move there. deployments are traditionally to deserts where if lucky you are bored to death and get in great shape and if unlucky get blown up in an MRAP or hit with a rocket or mortar. vacations-- yes, 30 days of paid annual leave is a pretty cool deal. but civilians get this too (as I recently found out when interviewing for civilian jobs).

5. Seems to be an advantage for residency apps. Look at all the old posts from people who took the GMO and out route. Can't find anyone who says that their military experience was looked on as anything but positive by PD's.

tends to be true.

6. Even once I'm out, it will forever be a networking opportunity for me to get connected with former HPSP'ers.
another unique positive. military service does get some amount of "in" with prior service civilians. however, most civilians aren't prior military, and in most cases the political capital and work experience to make it up the civilian food chain means most military people don't jump ship to the civilian side and instantly become important. so this is true about the same impact as maybe your fraternity/sorority alums would have.

1. A few countries I know of (Korea, Taiwan) require their adult male citizens to serve at least 2 years in the military, and they don't even get anything from it. Meanwhile, I will be getting 4 years of medical school paid for and I will only have to serve 2 more years than those people do. Or you could do the 3 year route and only serve 3 years (1 year more than them)

this is amazing. another one I've never heard. why did you choose korea and Taiwan and not israel or cuba?

** edit ** saw your other thread, you are looking at internship then GMO, which would be intern + 4 so technically 5 years of military time.

2. MD/PhD students get less pay and spend the same amount of time (4 years) doing research. I abhor research. At the very least, 4 years in the military seems much more palatable to me than 4 years doing research.

fascinating. fortunately the military (at least at the non-academic centers, and to a degree the academic centers as well) also abhors research. maybe not abhors but definitely doesn't care.

after 17 years in the forum, I thought I had seen most everything. you just kept me motivated to stay around another 17 lol.

--your friendly neighborhood thought you might be a troll but it's too internally consistent caveman
 
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this is your #1. dear god. the military may have a higher percentage of right wing christian gun nuts
Stopped reading after that lol
 
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Stopped reading after that lol

nah, you read the entire thing. I'd be willing to be my mortgage on it. either 1) you truly read to that point and stopped and are probably an axis II disorder or 2) you read the entire thing but wanted to stick to your guns (pun intended) and remain rooted in your conservative cocoon.

surprise = 0. if you had only made it 4 more words things may have made more sense to you.

the reality is the military is amazingly well tribalized-- in a good way. my current aid station, and my previous one when deployed, has a mix of all ethnicities, geographical backgrounds, religions, and sexual orientations. how are you with having a gay colleague? treating a soldier or dependent who is muslim? if you are a right wing Limbaugh ditto-head, you are going to have a rough go of it and I'm not just talking about residency and the military. medical school (if you get in) will turn your world upside down.

--your friendly neighborhood 'murica!! f*ck yeah!! caveman
 
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nah, you read the entire thing. I'd be willing to be my mortgage on it. either 1) you truly read to that point and stopped and are probably an axis II disorder or 2) you read the entire thing but wanted to stick to your guns (pun intended) and remain rooted in your conservative cocoon.

surprise = 0. if you had only made it 4 more words things may have made more sense to you.

the reality is the military is amazingly well tribalized-- in a good way. my current aid station, and my previous one when deployed, has a mix of all ethnicities, geographical backgrounds, religions, and sexual orientations. how are you with having a gay colleague? treating a soldier or dependent who is muslim? if you are a right wing Limbaugh ditto-head, you are going to have a rough go of it and I'm not just talking about residency and the military. medical school (if you get in) will turn your world upside down.

--your friendly neighborhood 'murica!! f*ck yeah!! caveman
Yeah I actually did read it lol

You sounded really upset. Hope all is well

BTW I appreciate all the wisdom you've imparted to this forum. A lot of times I search stuff up about military medicine and see your posts. Very informative.
 
Is HPSP worth it for a 4 and out future plan?

Nope.

Surrounded by conservatives. I won't have to feel like a reprehensible human being just because I believe in that destroying fetuses is wrong.

That's probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard as a reason for joining the military. If you want to be a part of a conservative echo chamber, you have no further than to look than the friend list on your Facebook feed.

Net positive money from here on out.

You clearly know nothing about finances--- and I will admit that I knew nothing about the topic either when I first joined. Given that I had to complete an internship I did not want in a field that has no bearing on my current specialty, I already lost out on over a hundred thousand dollars of an attending's salary. Using net present value calculations, I come out $300,000 behind by going the military route---even with graduating medical school debt-free.

Adventure. The possibility of deploying some place cool (Italy, Japan, etc.). If not, I'll at least have the money to go on vacations that I wouldn't have been able to go on otherwise as a resident.

The military is not a travel agency. It will post you wherever it can when it needs a warm body. You might be happy with Italy or Japan, but would you be so excited to go to South Korea, the Middle East, or even East Africa?

Can't find anyone who says that their military experience was looked on as anything but positive by PD's.

Military experience is definitely looked upon favorably by program directors. However, getting passed over for residency once before counts as a red flag. Most civilian program directors do not understand the nature of the military match.

Even once I'm out, it will forever be a networking opportunity for me to get connected with former HPSP'ers.

I have not kept in contact with anyone who is left my base. I'm not sure what networking opportunities you feel you need; I get job offers emailed to me every day.

Stopped reading after that lol

And therein lies the problem. An experienced physician is trying to warn you about the assumptions you are making, but you decided to blow off his advice. Have you been able to talk to any military physicians outside of this forum?
 
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Yeah I actually did read it lol

You sounded really upset. Hope all is well

not upset at all. quite amused and fascinated people like you exist. you gave me something to do today between sick call patients. thank you.

good luck with getting into medical school, and if you choose HPSP please keep us informed how things go-- a variety of viewpoints makes the forum that much more rich.

--your friendly neighborhood may not want to drop the pro-life bit into your admission interview caveman
 
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not upset at all. quite amused and fascinated people like you exist. you gave me something to do today between sick call patients. thank you.

good luck with getting into medical school, and if you choose HPSP please keep us informed how things go-- a variety of viewpoints makes the forum that much more rich.

--your friendly neighborhood may not want to drop the pro-life bit into your admission interview caveman

Already got into an MD school... just weighing my options still. If I do take the HPSP, I will try to continue to post here.
 
OP this is how I feel, too. I'm also planning on doing the GMO and out route.

  1. Surrounded by conservatives. I won't have to feel like a reprehensible human being just because I believe in that destroying fetuses is wrong
So this is why we have all this mandatory training. I've been amazed at the amount of physicians and medical students I've met that won't even prescribe birth control. I've also been surprised at how many fellow atheists there are in the military. It's a true melting pot.

As stated above, you're okay with becoming part of the war machine but not abortion? That seems a little odd.
 
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As stated above, you're okay with becoming part of the war machine but not abortion? That seems a little odd.
It can make sense, depending on your beliefs. The military fights, at least in theory, in the service of life. We are supposed to hurt the violent few to protect the innocent many. It's wrong to cut off someone's arm, but it's ok to amputate an arm to save a life. Similarly many have argued that it's wrong to take life, but can arguably be justified if we are fighting to save lives of the innocent from the violent and the despotic.

Of course, a lot of people would question the idea that we are actually doing any good with our giant war machine, which is a reasonable debate. Also many, including Ghandi, MLK, and Jesus Christ, have taught that peaceful resistance is the greatest good even in the face of true evil. But you can still understand why someone would support the military but not abortion.
 
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  1. Surrounded by conservatives. I won't have to feel like a reprehensible human being just because I believe in that destroying fetuses is wrong.

Just an FYI, the military might not be the best environment for this, at least not in the medical corps. There are true conservative work environments in medicine, but it's not the government. Your colleagues will have a wide range of beliefs, and you will certainly be able to find your echo chamber outside of work, but in the office your opinions won't fly.

The military is best described as agressively opposed to the expression of all beliefs. The goal is not to offend anyone, from gun nuts to burning man attendees. Even junior enlisted (in the hospital) rapidly learn to shut down their social media and limit their conversations to safe topics. Career officers are usually so agressively inoffensive that you'll never have any idea what their political views are until they retire. You'll be lucky if you can get them to commit to an opinion on the weather.

Nothing sums up the effect of a military career like listening to a Commander explain that there are 'pluses and minuses' to a 120 degree day.
 
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Eh, I've never been able to reconcile the thought process that every life is sacred so abortion isn't okay, but war/homicide are. Conservative pro-lifers don't tend to subscribe to utilitarian ethics. OP may have some nuanced views, but I doubt it given his posts.

And yes, it's very questionable that our war machine is doing good, but I think we're at a net positive even despite the last few decades of conflict in the middle east.
 
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@LePepe which branch are you considering?

Is GMO always after intern year? Or I guess one could GMO if they don't get their choice residency. But is it possible to do intern year, pgy-2, then get called to GMO?
 
It can make sense, depending on your beliefs. The military fights, at least in theory, in the service of life. We are supposed to hurt the violent few to protect the innocent many. It's wrong to cut off someone's arm, but it's ok to amputate an arm to save a life. Similarly many have argued that it's wrong to take life, but can arguably be justified if we are fighting to save lives of the innocent from the violent and the despotic.

Of course, a lot of people would question the idea that we are actually doing any good with our giant war machine, which is a reasonable debate. Also many, including Ghandi, MLK, and Jesus Christ, have taught that peaceful resistance is the greatest good even in the face of true evil. But you can still understand why someone would support the military but not abortion.
Civilians unfortunately have a habit of getting between the militants and the artillery.

As a physician, your viewpoints on abortion are irrelevant. If you choose not to perform an abortion, prescribe Plan B, or even hand out condoms, fine. But the ethical thing to do at that point it to point that patient in the direction of someone that will. And if you are not willing to remove an ectopic pregnancy to save a woman's life then stay the f**k out of the OR. A pro-life person won't get much more traction in the military than they would in the civilian world.

I don't believe that Tricare will pay for an elective abortion so that point is moot, but PP is right down the street. The patient has autonomy and the doctor's opinion on the fetus doesn't usurp that.
 
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The military is best described as agressively opposed to the expression of all beliefs. The goal is not to offend anyone, from gun nuts to burning man attendees. Even junior enlisted (in the hospital) rapidly learn to shut down their social media and limit their conversations to safe topics. Career officers are usually so agressively inoffensive that you'll never have any idea what their political views are until they retire. You'll be lucky if you can get them to commit to an opinion on the weather.

Nothing sums up the effect of a military career like listing to a Commander explain that there are 'pluses and minuses' to a 120 degree day.

spot on. i've run into a the rare vocal far left or right end of the spectrum but they tend to get out early. lower enlisted (especially when deployed) also have an amazingly wide variety of views given their age-- but most tend to fall conservative (at least publically) which i don't think is as much their true beliefs as it is they are trying to fit the snake-eating pillaging/plundering "warrior" stereotype which typically doesn't leave room for philosophical musings. ones that have been in combat previously normally have a different point of view and aren't as "kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out."

I would add the caveat that the military in general tends to slant protestant christian. biblical verses in signature blocks and having a chaplain "word of the day" based on the christian bible used to be a bigger part of the culture. it's not as overt as it used to be but they still say prayers and such at many events. it is what it is.

Already got into an MD school... just weighing my options still. If I do take the HPSP, I will try to continue to post here.

congrats. curious-- did you ask during your visit or interview what the numbers of pro-life vs pro-choice faculty and student body were? seems like it's an important topic that you'd want to address.

--your friendly neighborhood centrist slightly libertarian caveman
 
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@LePepe which branch are you considering?

Is GMO always after intern year? Or I guess one could GMO if they don't get their choice residency. But is it possible to do intern year, pgy-2, then get called to GMO?
You cannot do a GMO tour without a medical license. You cannot obtain a medical license without an internship. The military guarantees you an internship, which is no small deal. A medical school graduate without an internship and medical license cannot practice even in a shady after hours urgent care (legally).

People do go on GMO tours after PGY-2 but it's usually because they either quit or got fired.
 
@LePepe

Dude. I do not think the .mil is what you think the .mil is.

Your pros:
1. Not even close to accurate
2. Sure
3. Its a money loser in most cases. If you are so short sighted that you'd rather make less overall to get a little more now...then sure.
4. Enjoy Killeen
5. Neutral to slight advantage. Maybe.
6. There's no secret handshake

Perspective items:
You are able to find people who you feel have it worse than a young American with a med school acceptance. OK. There's a lot of them in the world (~7 billion). Not sure why you picked those two still relatively fortunate groups.
 
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You cannot do a GMO tour without a medical license. You cannot obtain a medical license without an internship. The military guarantees you an internship, which is no small deal. A medical school graduate without an internship and medical license cannot practice even in a shady after hours urgent care (legally).

People do go on GMO tours after PGY-2 but it's usually because they either quit or got fired.

It sounds like after intern year, you get notice of either GMO or continuation of residency?

reading above makes military med sound... bad.
 
OP this is how I feel, too. I'm also planning on doing the GMO and out route.

Here are the pros in my book (similar to yours):
  1. Surrounded by conservatives. I won't have to feel like a reprehensible human being just because I believe in that destroying fetuses is wrong.

Ohh, buddy.

I think you have the wrong idea about the military. Granted, it varies career field to career field, but 80% of my coworkers I'd say fall somewhere around "*mostly apathetic libertarian."
 
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It sounds like after intern year, you get notice of either GMO or continuation of residency?

That's more common in the Navy. The Air Force will tell you in medical school if you are getting to do residency or if you're getting sent to GMO or flight surgeon---about 25% of 4th year medical students when I was in school.
 
LePepe-

Posting right wing and anti-abortion screed

+

Post history of such gems as saying Meharry medical school "should not even exist"

=

A pretty clear etiology of why you chose such a username, no?

The military doesn't sound like a good fit for you...
 
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Seems like I upset a lot of people with my opinions...

If your feelings were hurt by anything I said, please feel free to reach out to me. I am willing to help you with whatever you are going through.
 
Seems like I upset a lot of people with my opinions...

If your feelings were hurt by anything I said, please feel free to reach out to me. I am willing to help you with whatever you are going through.

Feel free to send your username to med school admission committees.
 
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LePepe-

Posting right wing and anti-abortion screed

+

Post history of such gems as saying Meharry medical school "should not even exist"

=

A pretty clear etiology of why you chose such a username, no?

The military doesn't sound like a good fit for you...
Wonderful thing, that Banhammer. Just sayin'
 
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