How to get into investment banking? What is the best job in business?

[helpfuldoc2b]

How to get into investment banking? What is the best job in business? Giving you only have a Bachelors of Science in Biomedical Sciences, is it better to go for JD, MBA or MD. I love medicine but due to my illness may have to take different route that is shorter and easier educationwise. What do you guys think? What is the best job and opportunity to transition from science into business as entry level? What are the highest paying jobs out there, not greedy but too many loans and bills and willing to do the grunt work to secure my family financially.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Pavo]

Hmmm...

The Business section on this forum tends to get populated with IB quite a bit.

There are many ways to break into IB. The traditional path entails top grades at a top undergrad, a 2 (possibly 3) year stint, then off to b-school, then back into IB. Other paths include networking like mad, having good contacts already in IB, back-door routes such as working for a vendor or the like then getting hired on board, etc.

The best job in business? It depends on who you ask. Personally, I don't think that IB is the best job in business. It's the most glamourous to outsiders - it has that sex appeal, but I have a different take which I will spare. Have you considered other positions in the world of finance? Why IB? What role? Sales? Trading? Corporate finance? M&A? After you found that answer, then what group? Fixed income? Consumer durables? Financial services? etc. And that's just in IB. Why not the buy side? Or a quant shop? Or a hedge fund? You need to be really focused here on what you want to do (finance, like medicine, is such a broad word with many career paths to take). Don't forget developers, and the bankers who leave to start up their own software firms as there is HUGE profit potential there. I have a colleague who wants to leave to develop an accounting software system which will track and streamline swaps when traded. Very focused, a specific niche, but definitely nothing out there (that's good) at the moment.

Of those 3 degrees, an MBA wins given your circumstances. It's the quickest to obtain, and it's the one that business employers look for the most. Break into a top 5 program-ex Kellogg, and hit the floor running from day one. Look into Wharton, Chicago, Dartmouth, Darden, & Harvard as your potential schools as these schools are more econ/quant focused than on 'fluff.' I think Kellogg is a good program, albeit it's not as favored in the world of finance, and I have had colleagues and clients who went their and vouched on this: tough to get into, but a bore once you're in. There focus is more on marketing, team assignments, etc.

I can go on and on, but I'll stop as I'll type too much. If you have any specific questions, then let me know and I'll try to help.

 

[helpfuldoc2b]

Hmmm...

The Business section on this forum tends to get populated with IB quite a bit.

There are many ways to break into IB. The traditional path entails top grades at a top undergrad, a 2 (possibly 3) year stint, then off to b-school, then back into IB. Other paths include networking like mad, having good contacts already in IB, back-door routes such as working for a vendor or the like then getting hired on board, etc.

The best job in business? It depends on who you ask. Personally, I don't think that IB is the best job in business. It's the most glamourous to outsiders - it has that sex appeal, but I have a different take which I will spare. Have you considered other positions in the world of finance? Why IB? What role? Sales? Trading? Corporate finance? M&A? After you found that answer, then what group? Fixed income? Consumer durables? Financial services? etc. And that's just in IB. Why not the buy side? Or a quant shop? Or a hedge fund? You need to be really focused here on what you want to do (finance, like medicine, is such a broad word with many career paths to take). Don't forget developers, and the bankers who leave to start up their own software firms as there is HUGE profit potential there. I have a colleague who wants to leave to develop an accounting software system which will track and streamline swaps when traded. Very focused, a specific niche, but definitely nothing out there (that's good) at the moment.

Of those 3 degrees, an MBA wins given your circumstances. It's the quickest to obtain, and it's the one that business employers look for the most. Break into a top 5 program-ex Kellogg, and hit the floor running from day one. Look into Wharton, Chicago, Dartmouth, Darden, & Harvard as your potential schools as these schools are more econ/quant focused than on 'fluff.' I think Kellogg is a good program, albeit it's not as favored in the world of finance, and I have had colleagues and clients who went their and vouched on this: tough to get into, but a bore once you're in. There focus is more on marketing, team assignments, etc.

I can go on and on, but I'll stop as I'll type too much. If you have any specific questions, then let me know and I'll try to help.

Thanks, very insightful. So, what jobs are the best in business incomewise (guaranteed income) not just sales and lets see how it goes. Anyone make the shift from Bachelors in Science (biology, biomedical sciences, etc...) into the business world and if so what jobs did you consider or work in>?

 

[Pavo]

Income entails risk and return. A floor trader can make millions a year, but that same floor trader might be living in a homeless shelter the next year. The guy who presents his Goldman Sachs VP business card to you and goes to work and sits on his plump arse is really short-changing himself given his obvious potential to make it to where he's at, but he is comfortable with the steady paycheck, less independence, less autonomy and the Goldman name.

Sales is different everywhere you go. Some places are base only, whereas others have clear commissions.

It's a really simple path to riches. Beef up your income as much as possible (doesn't even have to be 100k), and live below your means (like a poor college student). You invest that money, and compounding takes over.

 

[TheBoondocks]

Hmmm...

The Business section on this forum tends to get populated with IB quite a bit.

There are many ways to break into IB. The traditional path entails top grades at a top undergrad, a 2 (possibly 3) year stint, then off to b-school, then back into IB. Other paths include networking like mad, having good contacts already in IB, back-door routes such as working for a vendor or the like then getting hired on board, etc.

The best job in business? It depends on who you ask. Personally, I don't think that IB is the best job in business. It's the most glamourous to outsiders - it has that sex appeal, but I have a different take which I will spare. Have you considered other positions in the world of finance? Why IB? What role? Sales? Trading? Corporate finance? M&A? After you found that answer, then what group? Fixed income? Consumer durables? Financial services? etc. And that's just in IB. Why not the buy side? Or a quant shop? Or a hedge fund? You need to be really focused here on what you want to do (finance, like medicine, is such a broad word with many career paths to take). Don't forget developers, and the bankers who leave to start up their own software firms as there is HUGE profit potential there. I have a colleague who wants to leave to develop an accounting software system which will track and streamline swaps when traded. Very focused, a specific niche, but definitely nothing out there (that's good) at the moment.

Of those 3 degrees, an MBA wins given your circumstances. It's the quickest to obtain, and it's the one that business employers look for the most. Break into a top 5 program-ex Kellogg, and hit the floor running from day one. Look into Wharton, Chicago, Dartmouth, Darden, & Harvard as your potential schools as these schools are more econ/quant focused than on 'fluff.' I think Kellogg is a good program, albeit it's not as favored in the world of finance, and I have had colleagues and clients who went their and vouched on this: tough to get into, but a bore once you're in. There focus is more on marketing, team assignments, etc.

I can go on and on, but I'll stop as I'll type too much. If you have any specific questions, then let me know and I'll try to help.

I will be applying to med schools in a couple of years. I will apply to all the aforementioned schools, and hopefully once in, will apply internally to business school. I would eventually like to work for a hedge fund. My parents forced me into medicine but business has always been my calling. If I get an MD/MBA from one of these schools, how possible is that. You're very knowledgable. What other parts of business are there? If I did IB, I would like to be a trader, however, what does that entail? I've read a lot about it, but I doubt they'd let a MD/MBA, even from a good school trade. What about an analyst, how satisfying is that? Venture capitalism would be cool, with an MD/MBA one would be very marketable and could work hard to make partner. More risk obviously, however, more profit. Give me as much feedback as you can. I've read a lot of your posts. Good luck in the business world Pavo. I will also send you a PM.

 

[IceMan0824]

You have a lot of questions, many of which will probably be best answered by research that you could perform on your own. I'll try to see if I can help though.

I will be applying to med schools in a couple of years. I will apply to all the aforementioned schools, and hopefully once in, will apply internally to business school.

I've never been a huge proponent for a MD/MBA dual degree. Even when I wanted to apply for programs like that at a time in life, I still realized that I was getting two degrees that I would be unable to fully maximize.

I would eventually like to work for a hedge fund. My parents forced me into medicine but business has always been my calling. If I get an MD/MBA from one of these schools, how possible is that.

You and everyone else. (Most everyone else). You'll probably need some years working as an analyst (pre-mba) if you really want to maximize your chances of landing a hedge fund position. Most hedgef unds, unlike some huge banks, do not have a internal training curiculum and are not interested in teaching new skills to candidates when there's already a pool of qualified candidates with the revelant skill (same applies for private equity). It's not impossible to make the switch, I'm just telling you it's going to be a uphill battle.

If I did IB, I would like to be a trader, however, what does that entail?

So you want to be a trader, but you don't know what the job responsibility of a trader is. Interesting.

I've read a lot about it, but I doubt they'd let a MD/MBA, even from a good school trade.

I hope Liar's Poker is not the only book you've read. Traders trade. It's just that simple. Whether they are trading equities, fixed income, or commodities, they are buying and selling the products on the market. Trader usually trade from three accounts
1. The account of clients who call and request it
2. The account of the company they're working for
3. Their personal account
Anyone can be a trader, you just have to get the job. Don't know how a MD will do you any good as a trader. You would just have four years of opportunity cost and school loans to carry around.

What about an analyst,

Analyst are pre-mba professionals who work to assist the group. What about them are you looking for exactly? Or are you referring to research analyst?

Venture capitalism would be cool

Now, I really do believe you're just listing all the cool jobs you've heard about in a newspaper. You list all the currently hot sectors in finance. Just so you know, hot sectors change, if you're just chasing the most recognized name from a newspaper, that sector will have cooled off before you get to the position where you can take advantage of the opportunity.

One last note. You probably need to decide for yourself what you want to do, and not be blindly led by what you parents want/expect of you.

Good Luck to you

 

[Pavo]

Iceman -

Good post, but LOL at the peppered nuances. You are correct though; OP, you need to be focused and on top of your game here.

So you want to be a trader, but you don't know what the job responsibility of a trader is. Interesting.

My current firm has a consulting arm, and a colleague wants to break into trading. I know a really good trader - he's worked a desk for Goldman for years, but also worked as a floor trader. So I set up a lunch date for us three so my colleague can get some questions answered. By the time we left the restaurant, my colleague was pretty set on not getting into trading.

What did my trader friend tell him? All he did was answer his questions. I think you need to get more involved in things like this, be it speaking with professionals, networking, getting personally involved, internships, etc. You need exposure. School, and learning is great - I love theoretical finance, however, practical finance is extremely different.

 

[TheBoondocks]

You have a lot of questions, many of which will probably be best answered by research that you could perform on your own. I'll try to see if I can help though.


I've never been a huge proponent for a MD/MBA dual degree. Even when I wanted to apply for programs like that at a time in life, I still realized that I was getting two degrees that I would be unable to fully maximize.


You and everyone else. (Most everyone else). You'll probably need some years working as an analyst (pre-mba) if you really want to maximize your chances of landing a hedge fund position. Most hedgef unds, unlike some huge banks, do not have a internal training curiculum and are not interested in teaching new skills to candidates when there's already a pool of qualified candidates with the revelant skill (same applies for private equity). It's not impossible to make the switch, I'm just telling you it's going to be a uphill battle.



So you want to be a trader, but you don't know what the job responsibility of a trader is. Interesting.


I hope Liar's Poker is not the only book you've read. Traders trade. It's just that simple. Whether they are trading equities, fixed income, or commodities, they are buying and selling the products on the market. Trader usually trade from three accounts
1. The account of clients who call and request it
2. The account of the company they're working for
3. Their personal account
Anyone can be a trader, you just have to get the job. Don't know how a MD will do you any good as a trader. You would just have four years of opportunity cost and school loans to carry around.


Analyst are pre-mba professionals who work to assist the group. What about them are you looking for exactly? Or are you referring to research analyst?

Now, I really do believe you're just listing all the cool jobs you've heard about in a newspaper. You list all the currently hot sectors in finance. Just so you know, hot sectors change, if you're just chasing the most recognized name from a newspaper, that sector will have cooled off before you get to the position where you can take advantage of the opportunity.

One last note. You probably need to decide for yourself what you want to do, and not be blindly led by what you parents want/expect of you.

Good Luck to you

I was quite tired when I made my original post. I should have reworded some of my questions. I know what a Trader does. My question should have been is it realistic to get a trading job after an MD/MBA. NO, i'm not listing all the cool jobs. I listed VC because with an MD/MBA, one would be qualified to deal with investing in biotech companies. I looked at a lot of firms online and saw MD/MBAs well represented. MD/PHDs were also commonly found. Basically I should have asked if an MD/MBA can make up for the lack of work experience on Wall Street. I like you am realizing that MD/MBA isn't that great. However, when I saw the solid representations in biotech companies I realized maybe thats a possibility. I am aware of the business trends. I wouldn't mind consulting, like Bain, McKinsey, etc. However, you have to be at the top of your game to get there. So I figured getting an MD/MBA at one of the aforementioned schools would give me a chance there. My original post was more to strike conversation since there aren't many posts in this forum. I'm sorry if I came off as naive. Thanks for your posts, I will reconsider even applying to Med School. The reason I considered trading is because I'm a good sports handicapper and cards player. I'm good at math and want a profession where I can apply those skills. I figured Finance would do that, specifically, derivatives trading which I have researched on. I'll think about what I really want to do.

 

[michaelrack]

deleted

 

[wallstdoc]

I WAS a derivatives trader on the floor before I went to medical school. I went to a top ten school, got recruited, went for the big time "wall st" job, and found out its not all its cracked up to be. If you are a good cards player and good with math, they care WAY more about that than anything you will learn in medical school or business school (at least for hiring traders). I rarely come to this site just cause I am busy with other things now, but when I do, I find it funny that every MD/MBA wants to be a banker. They don't know what bankers do, they just know they (can) make a lot of money.

At least it seems you know a little about trading and what it entails. The top traders on the street make a lot more than than the top bankers on the whole. However, you have to be REALLLLLLLY good at math to get to that point. My boss for example got a PhD in math when he was 22. He was 27 and was making about 3 mil (not really a big time trader, but getting there). He made that money because he could beat the next guy in math, not because the company paid him that much. You are not getting paid a salary like a banker, you are getting paid by what you produce.

For all those MD/MBAs that want to work on wall st, your MD/MBA means nothing unless you are going to be an analyst, a consultant, or MAYBE a banker specifically in the healthcare industry. All it means to them is you are a smart person.

 

[rbrand]

Investment banking is a way to make a good amount of money after about 3-4 years of really grueling labor.

You could also try the equity research route -- your science background might help.

Other high paying finance jobs are private equity & hedge funds - http://www.bankersball.com/2007/04/24/interview-no-longer-bitter-banker/

 

[Spacific]

LOL about all the IB postings.

I know a few friends who got their MBA at Harvard, NorthWestern, and Chicago. They all said the same thing..

MBA doesn't teach you how to trade.... in fact they all told me... either you got it or you don't.

And most of them don't even trade with their only money in the market.

I thought that was funny.

 

[TheBoondocks]

LOL about all the IB postings.

I know a few friends who got their MBA at Harvard, NorthWestern, and Chicago. They all said the same thing..

MBA doesn't teach you how to trade.... in fact they all told me... either you got it or you don't.

And most of them don't even trade with their only money in the market.

I thought that was funny.

i agree, it's just like handicapping or cards. however, i figured if one gets an mba from one of the aforementioned schools, then it'd be easier to get the opportunity to buy and sell stocks at some firm, maybe not an elite firm, but some firm to start your career.

 

[parto123]

Its very difficult to make it into top banks and consulting firms out of UG if you didn’t go to a top college. A lot of MDs and premeds figure that since they are doctors these banks will recognize that they are smart and hire them. But the truth is that in the finance world smart = pedigree and prestige, and if you don’t have those, its really an uphill battle.


I was recently asked about this by a guy in an “avg” med school who was interested in working for mckinsey. I had to explain to him that unless he was a real superstar and at the very top of his class, he had very little shot.

 

[TheBoondocks]

Its very difficult to make it into top banks and consulting firms out of UG if you didn't go to a top college. A lot of MDs and premeds figure that since they are doctors these banks will recognize that they are smart and hire them. But the truth is that in the finance world smart = pedigree and prestige, and if you don't have those, its really an uphill battle.


I was recently asked about this by a guy in an "avg" med school who was interested in working for mckinsey. I had to explain to him that unless he was a real superstar and at the very top of his class, he had very little shot.

i agree, which is why if one attends wharton, northwestern, columbia, or the other elite schools then getting an mba would be worth it.

 

[jmsMD]

Its very difficult to make it into top banks and consulting firms out of UG if you didn’t go to a top college. A lot of MDs and premeds figure that since they are doctors these banks will recognize that they are smart and hire them. But the truth is that in the finance world smart = pedigree and prestige, and if you don’t have those, its really an uphill battle.


I was recently asked about this by a guy in an “avg” med school who was interested in working for mckinsey. I had to explain to him that unless he was a real superstar and at the very top of his class, he had very little shot.

I too am interested in making the transition into business but not until I complete my residency and fellowship. I guess you can say, I am keeping my mind open to the possibility of making the transition rather than, being dead-set.

My question is along the lines of the pedigree/prestige. I have heard that pedigree (top B-school, UG and Med School) are of extreme importance in using the consulting firms to make the transition. Having come from mediocre UG and medical schools, at best, is their a more realistic route into making the transition? Equity research? Sales? Internship at Wall Street Bank?

Or should I just forget about the transition altogether, given my mediocre background with respect to pedigree.

 

[McKMD]

I too am interested in making the transition into business but not until I complete my residency and fellowship. I guess you can say, I am keeping my mind open to the possibility of making the transition rather than, being dead-set.

My question is along the lines of the pedigree/prestige. I have heard that pedigree (top B-school, UG and Med School) are of extreme importance in using the consulting firms to make the transition. Having come from mediocre UG and medical schools, at best, is their a more realistic route into making the transition? Equity research? Sales? Internship at Wall Street Bank?

Or should I just forget about the transition altogether, given my mediocre background with respect to pedigree.

I wouldn't discourage you from applying into consulting. Consulting firms are increasingly drawn to a balanced resume (e.g., leadership experiences, interest/excitement in business) and interview performance than they are to pedigree. Since their presence in healthcare has expanded significantly over the past few years, their desire for physicians has also grown.

Finance options (e.g., IB, PE, VC) are also great, particularly if you see a long-term career for yourself in finance. I would say consulting a better path for a more general introduction to business and would help open doors to management opportunities (e.g., in insureres, pharma, hospitals) in addition to those in finance.

 

[rbrand]

Right ... also "consulting" is quite broad (management/strategy is just one type) so you do stand a good shot depending on what you want to do.

 

[ttn]

I'm really glad to see this discussion here. Finally, I've come to a place where some one like me can be understood.

A bit about me first. I have finished my application to both medical schools (MD) and B-schools (MBA), and "fortunately?" have also been accepted at a number of schools in both categories. Now, i just have to make the choices...

Man! I hate what i get myself into. This decision is hard to make.

I'm interested in emergency medicine for MD, and i-banking, specifically, in merger/acquisition, and/or structured finance for MBA. The med schools that I have been offered places are both mediocre, but the b-schools that I have received offers are much better, specifically, CMU tepper and Dartmouth Tuck. Also, there's scholarships associated with both MBA programs and right now, I'm looking at no scholarships at all for me potential MD schools...

Because of what I want to do with the MBA, I'm actually leaning towards CMU Tepper because of its strength in finance and quant, even though Dartmouth is an ivy. I'm kind saddened that all my MD schools don't have a particular good track record for matching in emergency med's.

So...I don't know, this just makes my decisions even harder.

I think the bottom line is this: MD is much more prestigious and provides a much more secured means of income and a lot of personal pride and satisfaction, but it requires a great deal of commitment and opportunity costs; MBA is a much more common degree and can potentially provide even more lucrative compensations although with greater risks, MBA does have a much shorter time commitment and is rather flexible.



Look what I'm doing....I've just confused myself even more. I'm sure you guys here know way more about both disciplines and careers than me. Can anyone please provide me with you take on my situation? And how you would choose? And more insights into each career are always welcome.

Thanks in advance.

 

[pdz]

I'm really glad to see this discussion here. Finally, I've come to a place where some one like me can be understood.

A bit about me first. I have finished my application to both medical schools (MD) and B-schools (MBA), and "fortunately?" have also been accepted at a number of schools in both categories. Now, i just have to make the choices...

Man! I hate what i get myself into. This decision is hard to make.

I'm interested in emergency medicine for MD, and i-banking, specifically, in merger/acquisition, and/or structured finance for MBA. The med schools that I have been offered places are both mediocre, but the b-schools that I have received offers are much better, specifically, CMU tepper and Dartmouth Tuck. Also, there's scholarships associated with both MBA programs and right now, I'm looking at no scholarships at all for me potential MD schools...

Because of what I want to do with the MBA, I'm actually leaning towards CMU Tepper because of its strength in finance and quant, even though Dartmouth is an ivy. I'm kind saddened that all my MD schools don't have a particular good track record for matching in emergency med's.

So...I don't know, this just makes my decisions even harder.

I think the bottom line is this: MD is much more prestigious and provides a much more secured means of income and a lot of personal pride and satisfaction, but it requires a great deal of commitment and opportunity costs; MBA is a much more common degree and can potentially provide even more lucrative compensations although with greater risks, MBA does have a much shorter time commitment and is rather flexible.



Look what I'm doing....I've just confused myself even more. I'm sure you guys here know way more about both disciplines and careers than me. Can anyone please provide me with you take on my situation? And how you would choose? And more insights into each career are always welcome.

Thanks in advance.

If you want to make lot of money go for an MBA. If you want to dedicate your life to curing patients, go for the MD. Also think about it this way: MBA is two years and then you're set to start working and very likely getting >100k; with the MD, it'll be 4 years med school plus 3-7 years residency/fellowship, before you actually start making >100k.

 

[Spacific]

If you want to make lot of money go for an MBA. If you want to dedicate your life to curing patients, go for the MD. Also think about it this way: MBA is two years and then you're set to start working and very likely getting >100k; with the MD, it'll be 4 years med school plus 3-7 years residency/fellowship, before you actually start making >100k.

Man that is VERY true.

 

[ttn]

Yeah... I agree to a degree.

But won't you agree that after a certain point, self-respect becomes more important than salaries.

What i care more at this point is how likely that some one with my kind of background (BS, microbiology, & not a whole lot previous business experiences/knowledge) will be successful at an i-bank. Both b-schools that I got in are saying I'll do as well as all others and that the fact I have been accepted means they have faith in me...

urhhh...ok?? Not exactly buying it. Dos anyone know examples of how natural science people fair in the business world, specifically, in i-banks?

 

[Pavo]

I'm interested in emergency medicine for MD, and i-banking, specifically, in merger/acquisition, and/or structured finance for MBA

Well, I can infer from this statement that you want to be right in the middle of ALL the action in two completely distinct fields, so let me ask you, what do you want to do? Which one? I'm an avid believer in pursuing all of your dreams, but there is a limit on that, as you see I would like to command a space shuttle, pitch M&A deals, defend individuals in a court of law, play in a rock band, compete in the X games, be a real estate mogul, and cure diseases. Honest, I would do it all, but it's definitely not possible given the constraints of time, so what appeals to me most, at least next in life?

I dipped into finance and found it fascinating, spare the personality transformation that ensues from a culture that is solely concerned with the next deal and that ever elusive 'number' which everyone holds dear in there hearts before they can run away from all the madness. But let me ask you...what can you tell me about M&A banking? Or strucured instruments? It seems like you are chasing dollars, which in that case you should go into trading, but beyond wanting to make a lot of money, why should they hire you? What can a natural sciences major offer to an IB?

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but I definitely want to understand your thought process here. Interviewing is no walk in the park with these firms.

 

[QuinnB]

Yeah... I agree to a degree.

But won't you agree that after a certain point, self-respect becomes more important than salaries.

What i care more at this point is how likely that some one with my kind of background (BS, microbiology, & not a whole lot previous business experiences/knowledge) will be successful at an i-bank. Both b-schools that I got in are saying I'll do as well as all others and that the fact I have been accepted means they have faith in me...

urhhh...ok?? Not exactly buying it. Dos anyone know examples of how natural science people fair in the business world, specifically, in i-banks?

I don't really see I-banking being an overwhelming part of your b school curriculum...I've seen the successful transition in a lot of hardcore basic natural scientists into excellent McKinsey/BCG consultants...many of these guys go on to do finance and I banking after a couple of years with a consulting firm given that the consulting industry provides such a strong general knowledge of business. For a lot of banking positions, going to b school is secondary to being very good (= very fast/accurate) with numbers. Seriously.

 

[ttn]

Well, I can infer from this statement that you want to be right in the middle of ALL the action in two completely distinct fields, so let me ask you, what do you want to do? Which one? I'm an avid believer in pursuing all of your dreams, but there is a limit on that, as you see I would like to command a space shuttle, pitch M&A deals, defend individuals in a court of law, play in a rock band, compete in the X games, be a real estate mogul, and cure diseases. Honest, I would do it all, but it's definitely not possible given the constraints of time, so what appeals to me most, at least next in life?

I dipped into finance and found it fascinating, spare the personality transformation that ensues from a culture that is solely concerned with the next deal and that ever elusive 'number' which everyone holds dear in there hearts before they can run away from all the madness. But let me ask you...what can you tell me about M&A banking? Or strucured instruments? It seems like you are chasing dollars, which in that case you should go into trading, but beyond wanting to make a lot of money, why should they hire you? What can a natural sciences major offer to an IB?

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but I definitely want to understand your thought process here. Interviewing is no walk in the park with these firms.

Hey Pavo, allow me to thank you for your comment first. I really appreciate your criticism, which I believe will help me to reach the decision, that is, after all, why I even initiated the post.

I totally agree with your point about the fact that it is simply impossible to achieve all that we are interested in. While I originally committed in science and medicine, a recent financial crisis at home rendered this route much more difficult, if not impossible; therefore, I’d say, with all due respect, at this point with the circumstances, it is most likely that I will pick MBA and run with the business world.

I see some parallels between the scientific and investment banking worlds. First, both are highly competitive. Then there’s also a great deal of problem solving involved in both. Quantitative skills are crucial part of the equations in both. While I certain agree that a transformation in personality is likely required, but other than that, the move to financial world seems natural to someone with a scientific/engineering background.

My understandings to M&A and structured finance are limited to what I hear from my friends and former colleagues in the field. In M&A, I believe I’d go and help out with a team which acts as an advisor to a client, values transactions, creatively structures deals and negotiates favorable terms. I know Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley are the recognized leaders in M&A advisory. I’ve also noted that i-banks have increasingly participated directly in spinoffs and bridge loans. Structured finance involves the creation of financing vehicles, like asset-backed commercial paper, collateralized bond obligations to redirect cash flows to investors. Again, my understandings about both are limited at this time, but those will be the things that I will be able to pick up at b-school.

I’ve never been a big fan of traders. Yeah, they may make lots of money, but I don’t think I have the special kind of personality to be a great trader.

You are right as saying, and as I have hinted earlier, money is the primary motive behind this move. Why should they hire me? At this moment, I have little argument on my side, other than my ambitious, competitive and adventurous nature, and communicational and problem solving skills. That is exactly why I absolutely needed to get an MBA. By the end of b-school, I will hopefully be able to add advanced quant skills, more people skills, and advanced analytical skills to my equation. Lastly, I will get my MBA at 24, so my age, energy level and future potentials will be my last card to play.

Pavo, you apparently know a lot more about the financial industry. Do you think all those together will be enough for the i-banks? Other than M&A and structured finances, anything else you would recommend to a scientist transitioning into finance world? Your advises and insights will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Pavo]

First, how old are you? I'm presuming that you are really young, and if that's the case, then you are on the right track, however, you have to strengthen your arguments.

Second, b-school won't teach you those things about M&A and Structured products. A MS in Financial Engineering or a MS in Financial Mathematics might, but an MBA definitely won't. So how do you learn it? By doing it, i.e., working with it. You might catch a glimpse of it in a textbook, or you might have a prof. that shares some war stories with you, but you really won't learn it.

Third, b-school won't give you advanced quant skills unless you go to a quant based program, such as GSB. A better program would be one of the MS degrees above if you want quant skills. Better yet, just get a engineering, math or physics degree and there is your quant background. People skills yes as finance folks like to hang around pubs a lot, and problem solving depends on the program. Again, engineering, math and physics degrees will provide you with a leg up on problem solving over an MBA.

Sometimes I think that having a background in Comp. Sci. would be best as more than half of what you do is computer and application related - financial theory are the details of your work.

But, how on Earth will you have your MBA by 24? Top programs require work experience, so I don't understand how you plan to pull this off, and an MBA is not an MBA; pedigree matters A LOT. Where I work, we have some folks from big ten schools and we have Ivy leaguers (plus UofC). You can get in with a good tier 1 program, but once you're in, even then opportunities are treated very differently for people depending on what program you went to and how much a certain higher up likes you. It's an underground version of DC politics.

But in an interview, you have to be able to discuss certain stocks, certain metrics, the current state of the market and any predictions which you might have and why, what you invest in and why, etc. They really gauge your interest in this stuff by how involved you are - the markets are living, breathing organisms and you need to demonstrate how you are a barnacle attached to that puppy as it rides its way around. Also, you need to be very good with computers and applications - the more applications you know the better, and learn everything that you possibly can about Excel. Some places will have you build a macro during your interview.

 

[ttn]

First, how old are you? I'm presuming that you are really young, and if that's the case, then you are on the right track, however, you have to strengthen your arguments.

Second, b-school won't teach you those things about M&A and Structured products. A MS in Financial Engineering or a MS in Financial Mathematics might, but an MBA definitely won't. So how do you learn it? By doing it, i.e., working with it. You might catch a glimpse of it in a textbook, or you might have a prof. that shares some war stories with you, but you really won't learn it.

Third, b-school won't give you advanced quant skills unless you go to a quant based program, such as GSB. A better program would be one of the MS degrees above if you want quant skills. Better yet, just get a engineering, math or physics degree and there is your quant background. People skills yes as finance folks like to hang around pubs a lot, and problem solving depends on the program. Again, engineering, math and physics degrees will provide you with a leg up on problem solving over an MBA.

Sometimes I think that having a background in Comp. Sci. would be best as more than half of what you do is computer and application related - financial theory are the details of your work.

But, how on Earth will you have your MBA by 24? Top programs require work experience, so I don't understand how you plan to pull this off, and an MBA is not an MBA; pedigree matters A LOT. Where I work, we have some folks from big ten schools and we have Ivy leaguers (plus UofC). You can get in with a good tier 1 program, but once you're in, even then opportunities are treated very differently for people depending on what program you went to and how much a certain higher up likes you. It's an underground version of DC politics.

But in an interview, you have to be able to discuss certain stocks, certain metrics, the current state of the market and any predictions which you might have and why, what you invest in and why, etc. They really gauge your interest in this stuff by how involved you are - the markets are living, breathing organisms and you need to demonstrate how you are a barnacle attached to that puppy as it rides its way around. Also, you need to be very good with computers and applications - the more applications you know the better, and learn everything that you possibly can about Excel. Some places will have you build a macro during your interview.

I’m still 22 now. That’s why I say I’d be able to get my MBA at 24. I’ve also heard about how most b-schools, especially the top ones require experiences, but somehow I got in…

I have been accepted by Carnegie Mellon Tepper and Dartmouth Tuck, both of which are great programs. I’m leaning more towards CMU because it is a quant school. CMU also has more experiences dealing with younger MBA students. Not to mention its computer program.

Actually I guess I got in largely because I sort of had some working experiences, they are just not post-undergraduate. I’ve been working at the family business for 6 years, and also working in my current research job for 4 years. I did both even while I was a full-time undergraduate as well. I really excel under pressures, and I know the art of prioritizing. yet, another reason why I like to be in the middle of actions…But, I do agree that I held back my applications because of my own concerns with the lack of post-undergraduate experiences (still only one year…) For example, I didn’t even bother to apply to Wharton or HBS.

Back to CMU. One other reason I selected it over Tuck is because of its MS computational finance program, in which candidates earn the MBA and MSCF degrees in three years. I was not qualified to apply to the program as I don’t know C++ programming. But, I hope I can either pick it up on my own or do it with the computer classes that I will be able to take while I’m at CMU for my MBA.

I’m amazed at how useful Comp sci is for finance. It’s almost a competition as to see who has the best, the most comprehensive, and the accurate program. And a great program will really help one firm outperform others. I think my biggest mistake is that I didn’t take any comp classes as an undergrad. That’ll set me so much more ahead, and let’s face it, programming is immensely useful in both business and medicine.

My questions to you are:
1) did I make a mistake taking CMU over Tuck? In other words, is ivy league/reputation more important than Quant?
2) would it be easier to get in i-banks as some kind of risk management analyst or other positions first (basically get my foot in the door first with whatever ways), and then somehow try switch internally to the M&A division? Any shortcuts/back ways that you know about?

 

[nextgenpharm]

Well, I can infer from this statement that you want to be right in the middle of ALL the action in two completely distinct fields, so let me ask you, what do you want to do? Which one? I'm an avid believer in pursuing all of your dreams, but there is a limit on that, as you see I would like to command a space shuttle, pitch M&A deals, defend individuals in a court of law, play in a rock band, compete in the X games, be a real estate mogul, and cure diseases. Honest, I would do it all, but it's definitely not possible given the constraints of time, so what appeals to me most, at least next in life?

I dipped into finance and found it fascinating, spare the personality transformation that ensues from a culture that is solely concerned with the next deal and that ever elusive 'number' which everyone holds dear in there hearts before they can run away from all the madness. But let me ask you...what can you tell me about M&A banking? Or strucured instruments? It seems like you are chasing dollars, which in that case you should go into trading, but beyond wanting to make a lot of money, why should they hire you? What can a natural sciences major offer to an IB?

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but I definitely want to understand your thought process here. Interviewing is no walk in the park with these firms.

lol... i love the sarcastic humor... just had to laugh

 

[Pavo]

did I make a mistake taking CMU over Tuck? In other words, is ivy league/reputation more important than Quant?

They are both great programs.

would it be easier to get in i-banks as some kind of risk management analyst or other positions first (basically get my foot in the door first with whatever ways), and then somehow try switch internally to the M&A division? Any shortcuts/back ways that you know about?

With just an undergrad degree > analyst
MBA > associate

Many alternatives, but no shortcuts.

lol... i love the sarcastic humor... just had to laugh

It seems to be required in finance. Lot's of douchebags in the industry, and it rubs off on you - there is no avoiding it.

 

[old_boy]

.

 

[Pavo]

Bankers and other revenue producing parts of the firm regard these people as leeches and untalented ones at that. I know it sounds harsh, but bankers are an arrogant breed, and if you're not bringing in money to the firm they don't seem to have any use for you.

This is very true. Bankers are high powered salespeople, but there are true sales roles in banking firms. I've worked with a number of them in my previous role and it was a pretty unpleasant experience for me, in that they (1) really were not that smart and (2) dump everything on everyone else and (3) seem to think that they are the wo/man because sales is what adds up the revenue figures. Again, I understand there role here, and sales figures are important, but that's all they cared about and thought themselves a God since they can sell. If you've ever had sales experience before, then you know that sales isn't too tough of a gig. Ironically, they all disliked traders as well. In my experience, they really disliked anyone who was better than them or smarter than them. Some of the bankers treated the financial engineers with such disdain, but I've seen these engineers run circles around them and make them look like fools on a number of occasions. That only strengthened there disdain from there insecurities.

Arrogance is very alive and well in this field, and you are a second class employee of the firms (in there eyes) if you are not one of those that is contributing to the numbers. It's a very large political playground.

 

[PMmetoHelp]

I'm really glad to see this discussion here. Finally, I've come to a place where some one like me can be understood.

A bit about me first. I have finished my application to both medical schools (MD) and B-schools (MBA), and "fortunately?" have also been accepted at a number of schools in both categories. Now, i just have to make the choices...

Man! I hate what i get myself into. This decision is hard to make.

I'm interested in emergency medicine for MD, and i-banking, specifically, in merger/acquisition, and/or structured finance for MBA. The med schools that I have been offered places are both mediocre, but the b-schools that I have received offers are much better, specifically, CMU tepper and Dartmouth Tuck. Also, there's scholarships associated with both MBA programs and right now, I'm looking at no scholarships at all for me potential MD schools...

Because of what I want to do with the MBA, I'm actually leaning towards CMU Tepper because of its strength in finance and quant, even though Dartmouth is an ivy. I'm kind saddened that all my MD schools don't have a particular good track record for matching in emergency med's.

So...I don't know, this just makes my decisions even harder.

I think the bottom line is this: MD is much more prestigious and provides a much more secured means of income and a lot of personal pride and satisfaction, but it requires a great deal of commitment and opportunity costs; MBA is a much more common degree and can potentially provide even more lucrative compensations although with greater risks, MBA does have a much shorter time commitment and is rather flexible.



Look what I'm doing....I've just confused myself even more. I'm sure you guys here know way more about both disciplines and careers than me. Can anyone please provide me with you take on my situation? And how you would choose? And more insights into each career are always welcome.

Thanks in advance.

Keep it simple!
I wouldn't use the caliber of the schools willing to interview you as a gage toward which career choice. Thats looking external. Rather look inside.

Ask youself which would be more in-line with your basic nature and keep your interest.

What helps me decide when making the big decisions is both keeping it simple and also I have developed this tool.

Think about the worst case scenario at both jobs and the best case scenario at both jobs. Write them down.

That usually gives me a good idea of what would be more fulfilling.

If you are unsure of these ask doctor and biz friends whom you trust.

I myself and looking to make the transition into business but I think I am going to wait until I complete my residency and possibly a fellowship before doing anything drastic. While at the same time, I am going to keep growing my Rolodex or biz contacts. Or at least that was the advice given to me.

Anyone have any advice for me?

 

[jmsMD]

I wouldn't discourage you from applying into consulting. Consulting firms are increasingly drawn to a balanced resume (e.g., leadership experiences, interest/excitement in business) and interview performance than they are to pedigree. Since their presence in healthcare has expanded significantly over the past few years, their desire for physicians has also grown.

Finance options (e.g., IB, PE, VC) are also great, particularly if you see a long-term career for yourself in finance. I would say consulting a better path for a more general introduction to business and would help open doors to (e.g., in insureres, pharma, hospitals) in addition to those in finance.

Thanks McKMD and everyone else for their powerful and insightful posts on this thread. This sort of information is difficult to come by. At this point I am leaning more toward finance rather than management opportunities. However, judging by your post it would appear that unless I am dead set on finance I would be better served going the consulting route.

So given my mediocre pedigree (UG and Med School) but great extracurricular, class rank, research/pubs, and board scores what would be the best route to transition into the consulting world?
a)Should I just go ahead and apply to McKinsey and the other big consulting firms?
b)Do you think I stand a chance for acceptance without any prior business experience?
c)If not, how could I increase my attractiveness to these consulting firms?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Glentui]

My questions to you are:
1) did I make a mistake taking CMU over Tuck? In other words, is ivy league/reputation more important than Quant? [/SIZE].

It sounds as though you want to do I-banking, not consulting. But, if the i-banks are anything like the top strategy firms, yes, it is a mistake to pick CMU over Tuck. A top school is an asset on your resume beyond compare. Besides, what you actually learn won't be too relevant in any case - you'll find out that it's all on-the-job learning. Getting the job is the key, and there I think Tuck would help you more.

Jana