How the Matching Algorithm Works

[Pookies]

Here is a very interesting read.

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/about_res/algorithms.html


The matching algorithm is very simple and student friendly.

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[b&ierstiefel]

Here is a very interesting read.

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/about_res/algorithms.html


The matching algorithm is very simple and student friendly.

I think the match is stupid. Multiple acceptances and the ability to choose on one's own time is the way to go!

 

[jeff2005]

I think the match is stupid. Multiple acceptances and the ability to choose on one's own time is the way to go!

I agree. I don't understand why we have the Match rather than getting acceptances and then deciding.

 

[yaah]

I agree. I don't understand why we have the Match rather than getting acceptances and then deciding.

Because med students are hyper competitive and can't figure out what the hell they want so they would hold multiple acceptances and no one would end up knowing where they were going until 2 days before residency started when someone gave up their acceptance and it created a domino effect. It also runs the risk of having programs all accept the same people. I think the match is fine. It cuts out a lot of the BS that exists with application proceedings.

 

[Primate]

Goodness forbid we allow people and programs to operate as does the rest of the world, including med school application (although I haven't heard the obvious next step of matching into med school ever mentioned). Perhaps we should match into college. That'd keep all those hyper-competitive premeds from taking all the good spots at the superior uber-institutions of higher learning. Of course, why stop there? High school, middle school, grammar school, preschool. . . the opportunities to streamline American life abound.

In all seriousness, can you imagine almost any other process involving so many "intelligent" people running this way? Matching into a "business" job out of school as opposed to interviewing with potential employers? Law clerkships? Engineering jobs? I just don't buy the traditional arguments in favor of the match. Implicitly, neither do the majority of people in this country, else more processes would run this way (methinks).

Let the flames ignite.

P

 

[Pookies]

BE NICE

 

[yaah]

For what it's worth, I don't buy into the arguments for the match either. However, the process provides enough headaches as it is, and I just can't imagine having a "free open market scramble" (without the match) as being anything other than chaotic. Perhaps it would work well for a certain select number of candidates, but I do believe that for the vast majority the match is the most efficient and appropriate way to do things. Does it keep wages low and working conditions harsh? I doubt it. I highly doubt that without the match resident salaries would double and people would be attracted to programs with perks like free cars and housing. There are simply too many residency candidates out there and, to be honest, residents are a dime a dozen and they are there to do the work. Every program obviously wants to have the best residents that they can, but if they can fill with equally good candidates who are still going to pass their boards, do the work, and be successful in their careers, well that basically describes the majority of applicants! A handful of poorly qualified individuals get through med school but most people who finish are going to be solid doctors.

I hear about law students interviewing for post graduation clerkships and positions and it doesn't sound appealing. There are some nice dinners and trips, but you are still interviewing for a 110 hour per week job with no vacation.

I dunno. Maybe without a match things would go smoother. Now that I am done with it I have to say it was fairly smooth and not unpleasant. And by going through the match, you are not forced to have to quickly consider any offers you get. Now, after my interviews a couple of programs contacted me telling me I was going to be ranked high and I would match there if I wanted, etc. In a match-free world these calls probably would have been "We would like to offer you a position." Perhaps in this case I may have settled for a place that wasn't my #1? It's hard to know the truth. Given the time course of the match I was allowed to weigh these calls and letters (or lack of them) as they came in, think about my interviews, and consider my choices. Because of this, I was able to rank my residency choices without the prejudice of time and pressure involved. That is a good thing.

I just see chaos. That's my view though, obviously not shared by many! After all, they operated without the match 40 years ago if I remember my history correctly and things went just fine. This is a different time though, filled with lawsuits and obnoxious people and those who would take advantage of others. The match decreases the likelihood of these individuals getting their way, so that is part of the reason I support it (at least for now!).

So there is my haphazard and perhaps illogical defense of the match.

 

[RyMcQ]

What used to happen before the match? Applicants would not infrequently have an offer from good programs while waiting for their dream programs. The good programs would insist on an answer soon, so the applicant would be faced with the impossible dilemma of whether to accept the lesser program's sure-thing offer or to hold out for a possible offer from a better program.

I had a friend that wanted to do a fellowship, preferably a dermpath fellowship, but he was also interested in hemepath. He got an offer for a hemepath fellowship well before the dates he was scheduled to interview for dermpath fellowships. The hemepath program needed to know if he wanted the spot within a week or so so they could continue their search. What would you do? He decided he couldn't risk being without a fellowship. (He certainly didn't have a job lined up.) So he is doing a hemepath fellowship this year, and next year he will start his 2-year dermpath program. The lack of a fellowship match cost him a year (of life and salary).

Look closely at the matching scenarios. There is literally no way for the applicants to get screwed. In fact, I think there is no way for the programs to get screwed. I'd be interested to hear of a scenario where the match really hurts you. If a program wants you and you want to go there, there is no possibility of you being screwed. So how would it help you to get accepted outside of a match? If you are at the bottom of a program's list, but they have a bad year and they are your first choice, guess where you get to go? Conversely, if a program really wants you, but you are not so keen on them, they will get you if all the higher programs don't take you. It's totally fair for both sides.

Just wait until you start interviewing for fellowships. You have to pick 2 years or more in advance because all of the best spots are filled well over a year before the fellowship starts. (I was accepted 15 months before I started.) It's stressful and I found myself wishing that there was a fellowship match.

 

[RyMcQ]

www.savethematch.org has some good information.

These two sections recapitulate what I was trying to say above about problems with dropping the match:

Increased first offer acceptance – “bird in the hand” phenomenon. These bottlenecks create pressure on students to accept the offers they have. They know that if they don’t, they may be left without a residency position if the more desirable programs fill early. In fact, students tend to accept the first reasonable offer they receive, similar to what happens now in the so-called “Scramble” that unmatched students go through to find positions after the Match. The inevitable result is that students will end up in residency programs that they rank lower than those in which they would be placed through the Match.

Early Offers, Exploding Offers & Re-contracting. This situation typically causes other problems.

* Programs begin to “jump the gun” and make offers earlier and earlier. A similar plan recently used for judicial clerkships resulted in virtually all positions being filled by noon of the official opening day, apparently because secret offers were made and accepted in advance.
* Programs focus their efforts on students they feel confident will accept, whether or not those students are their top choices.
* Programs place shorter and shorter time limits on their offers in order to reduce their turnaround time and minimize lost opportunities (“exploding offers”).
* There is a much greater incidence of “re-contracting” by students who accept initial offers and later renege on those commitments in order to accept better offers.

The site is excellent.

Don't make the match a scapegoat for the stress you are feeling right now.

 

[PFCortex]

this may be a dumb question, so pardon my ignorance, but after a quick read of the link, i'm still a little confused as to the whole match process

 

[garfield]

Definitely agree with RyMcQ and yaah. Once you start delving into the fellowship BS applications, you will definitely miss the Match. A lot more screwiness without the match. Plus ERAS makes it so simple. No sending individual cr*p all over the place, risking losing stuff in the snail mail.

 

[RyMcQ]

seems like whoever is picked as #1 in the program would automatically get their first choice....

Only if the applicant lists the program first or doesn't get into higher ranked programs.

The way the match works, no program is going to pull an applicant away from someplace else he/she would rather be and no applicant is going to be able to squeeze out another more desirable applicant.

Smarter people than me (award-winning game theorists) have looked at the system and have agreed that the algorithm works exactly as advertised.

 

[jeff2005]

I see your point RyMcQ, but there are ways to avoid creating the kind of environment where programs force students to make an early decision. The med school application process, for example, allows students to receive multiple acceptances and they have until a set deadline to make a decision. I've never heard of anybody being pressured to accept one program and withdraw from all others. The same goes for applying to grad school, and ungrad for that matter.

In any case, I agree that the Match is not a bad system, the way it works now. It's true that I'm feeling impatient about not knowing where I'm going next year and I'm venting my frustration on the process.

Peace

 

[RyMcQ]

In any case, I agree that the Match is not a bad system, the way it works now. It's true that I'm feeling impatient about not knowing where I'm going next year and I'm venting my frustration on the process.

I can accept that this is a real drawback. I didn't move between med school and residency, so a three month gap between the match and residency wasn't in the least bit challenging. Maybe the match needs to be tweaked so Match Day occurs within a week or so of the programs submitting their rank lists. It's not like we need the Pony Express to deliver our results...

 

[yaah]

The difference between residency application and med school application is that residency programs only take 3-10 people per year (depending on the size of the program) whereas med schools fill a class of >100. There is no room for leeway with a group of less than ten. You have to accept only that amount and hope they all accept your offer, otherwise whoever is next on your list will likely be gone somewhere else. Sure, you could send them a letter saying "you're next on our list" but...

I agree the match happens late. Although, many specialties do interview well into february. Path does things earlier than others. For me it didn't matter much because I had 4th year electives up until May (due to taking my off months earlier), so I wasn't about to move anyway. It would have been nice to know earlier, of course.

But I would imagine that after you submit your rank list and the program submits theirs, the computer can probably run the entire algorithm (and repeat it a couple of times for completeness' sake) in a few minutes time. So why so many weeks? I guess they want to ensure that the results are accurate and there aren't any irregularities like someone getting lost in the shuffle.

 

[cookypuss3]

Ah, bullocks. The whole Match system is just another archaic piece of good-ole-boy tradition that just won't die. Medicine is very much too full of little nostalgic bits like this. My dalliances with the system this year have left me contemplating the Match like a new romantic relationship. You dance around subjects, using elusive terms, hold your cards way too close and overanalyze everything said or implied by the other party. Hearts get broken; lies get told. You use the leverage of others' interest in you (real or not) to artificially inflate the worth of your own stock, which capitalizes on the jealous human nature and inevitably results in you becoming wildly attractive. Such a bunch of donkey balls.

 

[RyMcQ]

guess i should have made my statement a little clearer (too many "programs" gotg thrown around in there).... tgo put it bluntly, who gets to be the magical student who gets picked to go 'first' in the match program....seems like the match computer program is driven by a list of students -- how does that list of students get organized...

In medical school, a group of students were drawing numbers out of a hat to decide the order of their class presentations. One student asked how they were going to determine the order of drawing from the hat. Most people didn't care because every draw is completely random, no matter the order.

The match isn't random, but it seems there is a lot of anxiety because people don't know how the match algorithm works.

It doesn't matter which student is plugged in first. His/her first choice is checked against that institution's rank list. If there is a spot open, a tentative match is made. However, if that institution has ranked enough students higher, and those students' top available program is that institution, the tentative match with the first student will be voided. The computer will then check for an open spot at his second choice, and if there is a spot there, another tentative match will be made. A match is made when a student has filled a spot at his/her top available program, and the program has no higher ranked applicants that could bump him/her out of the spot.

I have figured out a scenario where the student can be hurt by the match, but it is not the fault of the match. It is the fault of programs trying to game the system. Such gaming doesn't help the programs get better candidates, but does allow them to brag that they only had to go so far down their match list.

A good friend of mine was hurt by this. He was an excellent resident (and was an excellent candidate) who wanted to return to his home state. During the interview process, he was a little quieter and some at the institution thought that he wasn't that interested. Even though they knew he was an excellent candidate, they ranked him lower because they thought he wasn't interested. This is a stupid move by the institution because it doesn't hurt to rank dream candidates over the candidates you think you are likely to get. But in this institution's case, they wanted to be able to say that they only went 5 spots down their rank list to fill 4 spots. The end result was that my friend ranked them first and matched at his second choice and the institution lost out on a stellar resident.

After much thought over several years, this is the only way I can figure that a student could get hurt by the match. I'd be interested to hear of any specific or actual harm to applicants in the match. In this case, this could be remedied by better education of program directors (i.e., convince them that they are only hurting themselves by trying to game the system).

 

[yaah]

Ah, bullocks. The whole Match system is just another archaic piece of good-ole-boy tradition that just won't die. Medicine is very much too full of little nostalgic bits like this. My dalliances with the system this year have left me contemplating the Match like a new romantic relationship. You dance around subjects, using elusive terms, hold your cards way too close and overanalyze everything said or implied by the other party. Hearts get broken; lies get told. You use the leverage of others' interest in you (real or not) to artificially inflate the worth of your own stock, which capitalizes on the jealous human nature and inevitably results in you becoming wildly attractive. Such a bunch of donkey balls.

I love analogies. A good analogy is like a great bottle of Tuscan Chianti.

And yes, there is a lot of BS in the match. But that's true about every interview process. You have to play the game. But it is definitely best to not overanalyze everything that happens, especially when one may hear on this forum about others getting love letters or earlier interviews or meeting with the chair.

p.s. - about the match algorithm and "someone going first" - from what I heard the match algorithm runs the program with a number of different variables so that it is as fair as possible. Any "irregularities" would hopefully be corrected by this repetition and double-checking. Definitely do not overanalyze the match algorithm. Rank your programs in the order in which you would like to go to them. It is that simple.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

This Match is a game! Donkey balls galore!

I experienced this first hand today at my Chicago interview. I was told that if I wanted to match at Chicago, I need to commit to them later in the game. If I do not tell them, "I will rank you #1" I was told that I will likely not match. I understand this...but what if Chicago is #2? You get totally screwed by this. So if this program ends up not being my #1 choice, isn't it worthless to even rank them? If many other schools give the interviewee this pitch, then why even have a rank list? We should just rank one program and phone that program and beg for mercy and forgiveness for even considering other schools.

The game is now officially on! Game on! I hate this game! Why can't this be like med school applications...multiple acceptances...you get to choose?!?!?!

 

[RyMcQ]

Are they saying that you won't match because you are so excellent that you will get your first choice (i.e., not them), or are they saying that unless you rank them number 1, they will not rank you high enough to match there? If the former, Chicago being number 2 is a good as them being number 1 if you don't get your first choice. You wouldn't get screwed at all. You get the best available position and Chicago can go on thinking that you ranked them number 1.

If it is the latter scenario... Clearly, it is in the program's best interest to have as many applicants rank them number 1 as possible. But they have no way of knowing where you rank them. If they insist on knowing, tell them that you are ranking them number 1. I usually don't like to lie to people, but when the other people in the equation are dealing dishonorably (which Chicago is, in this example), I think you are obligated to watch out for your own best interests.

I agree that this is a real problem with the match, but I reiterate that it is against the interests of both parties, even the institution, to manipulate the system this way. Yeah, Chicago might fill more years than not, but how happy are the residents going to be when they consider how they were manipulated into the program? How happy will the program director be with a bunch of malcontents in the program? I guess hard-core academic programs don't give a crap about how happy their residents are, but in my experience, happy residents equal a happy program director and department chair.

Another thought: Do you really want to be someplace that has no compunction about manipulating and abusing you, as Chicago is in this instance?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Well, I'll put it this way RyMyQ. Chicago made it very clear to me that they don't want to be a backup choice. They want to be an applicant's #1 choice. They told me that last year, they took 5 people. And those 5 people were the top 5 on their list. Sure this could be all talk. Maybe it's a scare tactic. Who knows.

Not to brag, but everywhere I've interviewed have told me that "you will go wherever you want." They give me the vibe that they feel resigned to the fact that I will probably not end up there. Comments like this are a turnoff because if every program tells me this, then I'm **** outta luck, ain't I?

Given the match algorithm, let's say I don't commit to Chicago. They have 5 spots and rank me #6. If Joe, Bill, Genghis, Waldo, and George all commit to Chicago verbally and rank them #1 and Chicago responds by ranking them #1-5, I'm screwed...no doubt about it. I'm not matching there whether they're my #2 or #10 choice. What if this is the case at other programs? Then I better sure hope and pray that I get my #1 choice...which is never ever a sure thing.

Another thought: Do you really want to be someplace that has no compunction about manipulating and abusing you, as Chicago is in this instance?

You know, this is a very good point. Overall, Chicago was one of the best interview experiences I've had up to this point. I got the impression that the attendings and the chair(!), Dr. Kumar, really look out for the residents and their career plans and go out of their way to be mentors. This aspect I liked. This whole match tactic was a bit of a turnoff. The people at Chicago told me that at a lot of the "top" academic pathology places, I am more likely than not to encounter this kind of pressure.

 

[RyMcQ]

Given the match algorithm, let's say I don't commit to Chicago. They have 5 spots and rank me #6. If Joe, Bill, Genghis, Waldo, and George all commit to Chicago verbally and rank them #1 and Chicago responds by ranking them #1-5, I'm screwed...no doubt about it.

You are correct. But if you are a better applicant than the 5 you've named, isn't Chicago shooting themselves in the foot by not ranking you above them. They won't be getting the best applicant, and all because you didn't stroke their egos. Not very smart.

You mentioned earlier that you would like multiple acceptances. If all the programs rank you highly, you will get multiple acceptances. It's just that you will have chosen in advance which program you would accept, so you won't hear from the programs you ranked lower. The only thing you will miss out on is a boost to your ego by having those acceptances in hand.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

You are correct. But if you are a better applicant than the 5 you've named, isn't Chicago shooting themselves in the foot by not ranking you above them. They won't be getting the best applicant, and all because you didn't stroke their egos. Not very smart.

You mentioned earlier that you would like multiple acceptances. If all the programs rank you highly, you will get multiple acceptances. It's just that you will have chosen in advance which program you would accept, so you won't hear from the programs you ranked lower. The only thing you will miss out on is a boost to your ego by having those acceptances in hand.

I have been told that I am a strong candidate. But so have lots of other people. Hence, I take all this ego-stroking with a grain of salt. I have also learned in life that there are always many strong candidates who are better than I am. I'm not accustomed to winning special awards and crap so I know I'm nothing special. What you see is what you get.

And different programs have different criteria in selecting who the strong candidates are. I'm sure Chicago and other programs receive many strong applications so it really becomes a crapshoot when deciding who is #1, #2, #4, #6, #10, etc. And since path programs are small and take only a small handful of people, they are in prime position to manipulate this whole match system to their favor.

The fact that I got a good number of interviews boosts my ego already all from programs where I would love to join and in which I would flourish intellectually and professionally. I consider this actually to represent "multiple acceptances" in a way so your point is well taken.

 

[SpinachPizza]

Hey, AndyMilonakis,

If Chicago is feeding you that bull, then just tell them what they want to hear. It protects your interests, and it serves them right. By participating in the match, they are not supposed to pressure you in any way to reveal your ranking preferences. You can tell them, if you want to, but they aren't supposed to pressure you into doing so.

When I was interviewing, one of the places I visited was WashU. The interview was pretty good, and in January, they called me, wanting to know exactly where they stood, and also telling me that I could drop out of the match to sign up with them right away. I didn't want to tell them anything other than I thought highly of their program, and that I would rank them "highly." This was always the advice I had heard as to what to say. It's a good thing I actually had them 4th on my list (out of 5) rather than 1st. When I went to enter my rank list in February, I couldn't rank them at all, because they were "no longer participating in the match." I called them, and they told me that they filled all their spots outside of the match. If they had been my number one choice, I would have been shafted, without having done anything wrong. I thought their conduct was inappropriate.

My advice: protect yourself. The programs are trying to protect their interests, you should do the same for yourself.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

RyMyQ and SpinachPizza,

I very much appreciate you posting about your experiences and insights. Clearly, I can't tell multiple programs, "I will rank you #1" as that would lead to hurt feelings. At Chicago, I was told that if I do that, I screw myself professionally as pathology is a small community and word travels fast.

I agree with you in that I need to protect myself. Regardless of these schemes or even threats, I will remain non-committal and make statments such as, "I really liked your program, I have ranked you HIGHLY." This is the best I can do in my position. And when programs tell you, "we filled our spots with our top 5" or "we are filling our spots outside of the match and you should sign with us", I take this with a grain of salt. There's no absolute proof in any of these claims that I will have access to prior to the ROL entry deadline.

If Chicago is feeding you that bull, then just tell them what they want to hear. It protects your interests, and it serves them right. By participating in the match, they are not supposed to pressure you in any way to reveal your ranking preferences. You can tell them, if you want to, but they aren't supposed to pressure you into doing so.

I talked with them regarding the NRMP rules. They said that they cannot directly ask us where I will be ranking them. I cannot ask where I will be ranked. However, both sides can volunteer that information freely. Hence, they said that it is MY initiative to commit. And whether I commit or not WILL influence where I am ranked! So isn't that a form of soliciting this information and still illegal?

At the end of the day, I will only tell one program that they are my #1. As of now, I know what that program is. However, I may not like that program when I go visit and in that case, I will tell another program that they are now my #1 choice. Would you even recommend doing that even? Paranoid Andy speaking--I think once you over-commit to the program, programs now have you by the balls. They know you're #1 so they may not rank you highly and look at YOU as a backup candidate cuz they know that if they don't get their top candidates, they can always get you. So now that I think about this, I may tell nobody that they are my #1.

This game sucks donkey balls. Mind-games! Mind games! Argh!

Thanks again for your advice and input...very much appreciated.

 

[yaah]

In my opinion, what U Chicago does is a violation of the rules of the match. While it is technically ok, in some opinions, to do what they do, it still constitutes pressure and attempted influence of your rankings.

I would not lie to them. I never really encountered this - because my interview there was pretty early on, and it went well, and I heard from several people there that they wanted me to keep in touch if I was interested because they weren't going to bother with people who weren't interested. At that point I still hadn't visited a number of places so I certainly wasn't going to commit to anything. It turned out I never contacted them other than my initial post interview correspondence thanking them and telling them I enjoyed my visit. And they never contacted me. If they had presented me with a "rank us #1 or else" ultimatum and I wasn't going to I would have told them that I was going to rank them highly but wasn't going to answer any other questions. If they had a problem with that, they would have been told it was inappropriate.

 

[SpinachPizza]

You're allowed to change your mind. There's no such thing as a binding "verbal commitment" pertaining to the match. The only commitment that is binding is your submitted rank order list. I don't think you will screw yourself professionally. There are so many candidates, and for you, a job is years away, I doubt that they will remember and/or hold a grudge--especially when they have no right to! They are gaming you, man! No, they(Chicago) are not supposed tell you that you won't be ranked unless you tell them they're number one. Hurt feelings? Don't worry about hurt feelings. Don't think for a moment that Chicago or anyone else is worrying about hurt feelings on your part.

When it comes to getting a job, or even a fellowship, there will be no match. They will have a definite need, and if you are a great candidate, you'll get an offer. I really don't see anyone saying "this guy told us he would rank us number one, and then he changed his mind. We're not hiring him!" Even if they happen to remember that, I don't think that's realistic. If that IS their mentality, however, then I certainly wouldn't want to work with them. Not only that, but by the time you're interviewing for a job, several of the people involved with your interviews may very well not even be there anymore. Academic people "jump ship" more frequently than private practice folks. Hey, where is their sense of loyalty?

 

[baoflex]

This Match is a game! Donkey balls galore!

I experienced this first hand today at my Chicago interview. I was told that if I wanted to match at Chicago, I need to commit to them later in the game. If I do not tell them, "I will rank you #1" I was told that I will likely not match. I understand this...but what if Chicago is #2? You get totally screwed by this. So if this program ends up not being my #1 choice, isn't it worthless to even rank them? If many other schools give the interviewee this pitch, then why even have a rank list? We should just rank one program and phone that program and beg for mercy and forgiveness for even considering other schools.

The game is now officially on! Game on! I hate this game! Why can't this be like med school applications...multiple acceptances...you get to choose?!?!?!

Chicago does this every year from what I can tell. Kumar did this to two different students in my program last year. One ended up going there the other ranked them last.

 

[Logos']

...

 

[RyMcQ]

I think that it is unrealistic to expect an applicant to know this early what the number 1 program will be. The main reason I never told any program that they were number one is that I hadn't interviewed everywhere yet. I was impressed by each program I visited, and I told them so, but I didn't say, "You're number 1" to anyone.

What's next for Chicago? Are they going to start telling applicants that the only way they will rank you is if you cancel your remaining interviews?

Logos', I agree with your sentiment, but you should understand that you are safe if you rank your favorite program number one without reassurance from them. If you don't match there, you will have the same chance of getting into your number 2 program as if you ranked them number one. You aren't going to be penalized with the number 2 program for ranking them second.

Now if you are trying to improve your position on a rank list by trying to get a completely nonbinding commitment from the program director, you may find that this strategy backfires. That is, the program director might like you less if he feels you are turning the screws on him. He may even think you are less intelligent if you are trying to game a system that really doesn't need to be gamed. Even if you succeed at getting this nonbinding commitment, you won't learn if they lied to you until Match Day, and then, of course, it is too late to do anything about it.

 

[yaah]

Yeah - I didn't get any kind of commitment from my #1 program. Of course, I may have told them they were my #1 before any kind of communication could happen. I did get assurances from a few other places that I would be ranked high enough to match should I choose. They rarely even asked if I was "interested" in the program. They did ask often if I would tell them their thoughts on the program, which I was happy to do. Also kept asking if I had any other questions or if I needed to talk to anyone else or needed more information to help convince me. I guess perhaps they were hoping I would offer up "I want to come there" or something like that.

I would go out on a limb and say most programs do not operate like U of C. Many won't rank you unless you express "interest" in their program, but that doesn't necessarily imply you ranking them #1.

But I am with the above - don't look for any kind of commitment from programs, and don't give them one unless you are sure.

 

[RyMcQ]

Many won't rank you unless you express "interest" in their program, but that doesn't necessarily imply you ranking them #1.

I really hope that this isn't true. Programs could do a write-in ranking and put Juan Rosai, Sharon Weiss, and Louis Dehner 1, 2, and 3, and it wouldn't hurt them. The only possible benefit is to be able to say, "We only went 5 down our rank list." I think it hurts the program because if someone changes his mind at the last minute--I've known people to change their minds when submitting the ROL--the program will miss out on a candidate they would have ranked higher if he/she had kissed their butts.

Why am I obsessed with this? I guess it just pains me so much to think that a group of highly intelligent people could be so utterly irrational about this process.

 

[yaah]

I know - this bothers me incredibly as well. But apparently being able to talk about where you went on your rank list is important to some programs. I didn't really have the guts to confront one of the PDs who told me that I had to stay in touch if I wanted to be ranked. I guess it makes a little bit of sense in that residents who have a strong desire to be at the program may be happier to be there and perform better. But at the same time, this is pretty weak. I mean, if I had matched at my #9 program I wouldn't have been pleased but no doubt I would have given my all to the program.

But it does matter - I was on OB/Gyn at the time of the match my 3rd year, and the PD was running around telling everyone "we went to 17 on our ROL" which was an improvement from going to #25 the previous year (for 5 spots). The people on the residency selection committee had a pool going amongst themselves as to how far down the ROL they would go.

But who does this matter to? In order to get the best residents a program has to convince them to come there. I guess one way to do this is to suggest (or demonstrate) that everyone who is there chose it above all others. But it is total crap. I very much appreciate program directors who made it a point (without me asking, because I never asked about ROLs anyway) to state "We rank people based on our impressions of them, and not on their likelihood of coming here."

You are right, it is totally irrational. It's like some kind of juvenile pissing contest. We only went down to #7, nya nya nya. But it is true because I was explicitly told this at a couple of programs.

 

[SpinachPizza]

It's like some kind of juvenile pissing contest.

Describes "hard core" academia, sad but true.

 

[yaah]

Describes "hard core" academia, sad but true.

Yeah, I am figuring this out. For the longest time I wanted to be in academia, teaching, studying things. But as I go on in life, private practice looks better and better. I guess the dilemma comes down to whether you want to suck up to people for $$$ or for career advancement. We'll see. A lot of it becomes what you make of it and what you want to focus on. If your priority is advancement and having people suck up to you, well, that's different from other priorities.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Yeah, I am figuring this out. For the longest time I wanted to be in academia, teaching, studying things. But as I go on in life, private practice looks better and better. I guess the dilemma comes down to whether you want to suck up to people for $$$ or for career advancement. We'll see. A lot of it becomes what you make of it and what you want to focus on. If your priority is advancement and having people suck up to you, well, that's different from other priorities.

Ahh...the politics surrounding academia. I like the analogy comparing this to a juvenile pissing contest. This is the one thing I absolutely HATE about academia...politics politics politics! Some people are successful in their careers because of actual merit. Others are successful because their faces are covered in feces from licking and chomping on the dingleberries of some department chair's chocolate starfish!

Chicago does this every year from what I can tell. Kumar did this to two different students in my program last year. One ended up going there the other ranked them last.

This is good to know. Thanks for the scoop. Interestingly, I got absolutely no pressure from Kumar. Him and I agreed on many things and I got the impression from him that as a pathologist, he wants the best for me regarding my career. I thought it was a selfless gesture and I admire him for that. The pressure came from a program director.

I interviewed at Chicago a while back and had the exact same experience. In fact I bet their whole “Let me tell you how this is going to work” talk was probably word for word. The implied threats they made about trying to deceive them left me feeling a variety of unpleasant emotions and despite being impressed by the support they offered to academic types, this interaction convinced me not to rank them. Other programs have essentially told me the same thing but in a more professional way. This game is very disenchanting but it is clear that it must be played.

I will see your bet and go all in . Seriously, the commitment schpeel is one thing. I didn't mind that as much. It was the implied threat about "falsely" telling them they are my #1 which was a turnoff. "Pathology is a small community and if you tell several programs you ranked them #1 and match at one place, your credibility will be known to the community at the start of your pathology career...you don't want that." (or something like that).

This reminds me of one of the first reality TV shows--"they think this is a game!" I've realized that this is no game. This is real life! My future colleagues, we are being introduced to the world of professional politics.

I think that it is unrealistic to expect an applicant to know this early what the number 1 program will be. The main reason I never told any program that they were number one is that I hadn't interviewed everywhere yet. I was impressed by each program I visited, and I told them so, but I didn't say, "You're number 1" to anyone.

Your point is well taken. I certainly haven't interviewed everywhere yet so based on the first 6 places I have interviewed, I would put Chicago or WashU as #1 (both places have their pros and cons). However, I still have 6 other places to go and they all include *preconceived* #1-3 programs. And I stress the word preconveived because I've been to programs where I walked away disappointed (i.e., VERY disappointed) and others where I came away pleasantly surprised.

You're allowed to change your mind. There's no such thing as a binding "verbal commitment" pertaining to the match. The only commitment that is binding is your submitted rank order list. I don't think you will screw yourself professionally. There are so many candidates, and for you, a job is years away, I doubt that they will remember and/or hold a grudge--especially when they have no right to! They are gaming you, man! No, they(Chicago) are not supposed tell you that you won't be ranked unless you tell them they're number one. Hurt feelings? Don't worry about hurt feelings. Don't think for a moment that Chicago or anyone else is worrying about hurt feelings on your part.

I like the way you think. Kudos! You just made me step back and look at the big picture here.

Anyways, thanks to all of you who responded and offered their experiences and suggestions. This is another testament of how this forum rocks!

Cheers,
AndyM