How the heck does a Harvard/Yale decide on who to accept?

[piotr13]

I mean.... seriously..... with like a billion (note sarcasm) applications, how the heck do you decide on a first year class at a Harvard or a Yale? What really impresses them?

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[....]

I hear they like melanin.




Ok seriously. They just interview the big numbers and then pick the big numbers that they think will "be somebody"
They want leaders, policy makers.
Also, unique stuff. There last class had 2-3 people take time off to train for the olympics. You wont find that at lower teir schools. and melanin helps

 

[evines]

Melanin? I have a lot of moles. You think that will help?

 

[....]

hehehe

I dont see why not, diversity is diversity.

 

[AverageMan]

The answer is simple, they take everyone who's not you or me and gives them an acceptance

 

[jlee9531]

Originally posted by AverageMan
The answer is simple, they take everyone who's not you or me and gives them an acceptance

We shall call this.......the Average Man's Postulate.........

Don't let the fame get to you now

 

[spinestudent]

I think a lot of students on here overestimate the "special" qualities it takes to get into a top 5. Yeah, I'm sure there are a few former div-1A athletes and such at Yale or Harvard, but the vast majority of matriculating students at these schools don't have a first author pub in nature, they weren't on the olympic team, and they haven't spent 7 years teaching quadrapalegic kids in Zimbabwe.

There aren't as many 3.8+/35+ applicants from top undergrads as many assume. Consider that 35 on the mcat is in the 94%-95% or so. The top 5% of the mcat pool only represents about 2,000 applicants in any given year. Of these 2,000, perhaps half have really strong gpas(3.8+) as well. 1,000 people represent 8-9 med school classes. Not a whole lot, and when you consider that many of these students opt to go to their state school for financial and/or geographic reasons, it's questionable as to whether Duke, Harvard, Hopkins, Yale, Stanford, UCSF, and Columbia could fill their classes with all stat superstars even if they wanted to.

 

[nontraditional]

spine,

i like your back of the envelope math. However, for the gunners with the stats that you mentioned, only a tiny fraction would elect to go to a state school for geo and financial reasons when Harvard and Yale dangle the carrot of acceptance in their faces. don't you think that for applicants with those types of stats, harvard and yale would offer an attractive financial package?

 

[hale-bopp]

Um, why are people with high MCAT scores who also have high GPAs all considered "gunners". Isn't it possible that they are just really smart?

If you and your parents/spouse are not rich, these schools do have attractive financial aid packages, but the aid they give is "need-based". So, after they calculate your "need", they make you take out a unit loan (typically 16-20,000) and then give the rest as scholarship. So, it could cost less than your state school.

 

[spinestudent]

nontraditional, well even if every single 3.8+/35+ applicant opted not to attend their state school, you still could only fill up the top 6 or schools. That would mean schools like Penn and Columbia would be left to take the people with lower stats.

But I do think some people with excellent stats go to non-top 5's. Lots of people. The average gpa and mcat at most state schools is a 3.6/30. To believe there aren't plenty of people both .2 gpa points and 5 mcat points above the mean would be a mistake imo. I know this is a small sample, but I know of several of these type of applicants who went to MCG, UAB, UVA, and UF.

 

[R_C_Hutchinson]

reading mdapplicants.com on the subject is truly depressing. everyone there has amazing EC's, high mcat and gpa above 3.6 and few if any even get interviews, especially at harvard/yale etc. the logic doesnt match the numbers, what gives?

 

[periodic]

Probably something that doesn't come through in a formula of just EC's, MCAT, and GPA. Personality and commitment, as shown in the essay/letters/interviews, probably matters a ton. And there are truly exceptional people who would make full use of a Harvard or Yale medical school's resources who don't have the 3.8/35 "magic" combo. There's a reason why the MCAT averages for entering classes at the top-tier schools isn't a 37 or 38, but more around 33-35.

 

[spinestudent]

RC, if you look closely at these 3.9/37 students, most apply to many of the top 7 schools. And most get into 1-3 of them. They just don't always get into any particular one.

Also, I'm very skeptical of some of the profiles posted on mdapplicants.com. As already noted, the average applicant from most undergads posting to mdapplicants.com has a higher gpa/mcat combo than the *actual* average accepted student. Some of this is no doubt due to the fact that anyone can register under any school and name any amount of times......whether it is accurate or not. It's a cool site, but I wouldn't get too worried about it.

 

[Tezzie]

Yeah but a lot of pre-meds don't do enough research. So the people who are on SDN/MDapplicants.com are students who are really set out for med school, they have done more research and know what they want. That is why you see higher avgs.

As far as Yale med school goes, honestly you either like it or hate it. There are many things that i enjoyed there and others that i truly didn't like. It seems like a unique med school experience. Harvard i have no opinion as of right now cause i haven't interviewed there yet.

Also don't think that there aren't people out there that reject Harvard for Columbia. It happens. For money, for lifestyle and for a number of other reasons.

 

[imperator]

Originally posted by piotr13
I mean.... seriously..... with like a billion (note sarcasm) applications, how the heck do you decide on a first year class at a Harvard or a Yale? What really impresses them?

They are impressed by people who know how to properly use whom.

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

There was already a thread about this awhile back. But basically, they're looking for the few applicants who have actually distinguished themselves in things completely unrelated to medicine. This already puts the 2847987832749837 premeds out there who have enthusiastically "volunteered" to wheel around old people at their local hospital at a disadvantage because many of their applications look just like the next guy's application. Research experience is also becoming the norm now and is practically expected at certain med schools (Univ. of Chicago comes to mind here...). After looking at the viewbooks and websites of some of the top tier med schools...I've noticed how they love to say something like: "Among the students in our last entering class...we had a former investment banker for J.P. Morgan, a volunteer who vaccinated children in Mozambique for 3 years, a former SWAT team sharpshooter, and a former Olympic gold medalist in sacrinized swimming!" (yes, I exagerrated a little..but you get the point).

Basically...I really don't think numbers don't matter at the top med schools just because practically ALL the applicants have similar stats (3.6+ GPAs...30+ MCATs). I think this would explain why thousands of biology majors with 3.8+ GPAs and and 30+ MCATs still receive rejection letters from the top med schools (oops..I forgot to mention that these same bio majors also volunteered at their local hospital and did research under a professor at their school). I think premeds have basically reduced the term "premed" into a formula...declare bio major+get high GPA+high MCAT score+do some hospital volunteering+do some research=acceptance into med school This formula might work for lots of med schools...but I don't think it works for the top med schools the OP is talking about.

 

[luverofpenn]

I seriously think some people need to do some research on the schools. Last time I checked Penn Med was ranked higher than Stanford or Yale. Actually, even Columbia is ranked higher than Stanford or Yale. People really should stop assuming that Yale is always better than Penn.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by luverofpenn
I seriously think some people need to do some research on the schools. Last time I checked Penn Med was ranked higher than Stanford or Yale. Actually, even Columbia is ranked higher than Stanford or Yale. People really should stop assuming that Yale is always better than Penn.

Oh good, an unbiased observer.

 

[strangeattractor]

all i have to say about this is squawk.

i already posted what i have to say about the ten thousand threads on hms.

 

[noy]

I don't get it, whats wrong with state schools? Why wouldn't there be a 3.9+/37+ coming out of a good state university looking for the top med schools?

 

[AverageMan]

Because while there are a lot of good state schools, there are even more not so well known state schools. Name recognition goes a long way in med school applications. Next time you're at an interview, just ask the other applicants where they're from and you'll find that more than half and even as much as 75% will come from a combination of Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Duke, Hopkins, Penn, Columbia, and Cornell. That's the way it's been for every interview I've been at. Looking at facebooks (like the ones handed out at Columbia interviews) is even more depressing looking at which universities dominate the makeup for their class. I come from a respected university for engineering, but that doesn't have any name recognisition except for engineering professionals (Rensselaer Polytechnic Instutite for you engineers out there). At my interview at OSU, the first question I got from my interviewer was "Where is Rensselaer? Is it known for being good at anything?" Not a great way to start an interview. Adcom's are for the most part either ignorant or lazy, and either can be deadly if your application requires them knowning something something about your application or university that isn't commonly known, which can be a death knell for you. So as far as state schools go, Adcoms will probably be aware that UCLA or UC Berkley are tough state schools. But will they know anything about the State University of Eastern Wyoming*?? Probably not, and thus they won't care about your 3.9 from it. Is it fair? No, probably not, but then life isn't fair. But even that's not true; life is ambivalent, it's people (specifically adcoms) who aren't fair, and it's an uphill battle that us non-ivyleaguers have to deal with.


* - With all due respect to students at East Wyoming State, if it exists.

[Rant off]

 

[link26]

there is no formula.

they select by gut feeling. you know, when you see something and you just know it's good.

 

[Tezzie]

*sigh* I have to say things twice today, don't i?

The reason why in the top med schools, you see top undergrads represented is because of the quality of students NOT because of name brand recognition.

Ivy Leagues and the rest (Stanford, Chicago, Rice, Northwestern, WashU, Duke, G-town....) along with the prestigious liberal arts schools usually attract huge numbers of talented student. They are people who have worked hard through highschool and will keep on working very hard through college and MCATs. It is their scores that bring them to the interview process and all of their ECs. NOT because the adcoms (at any school) look down on any other applicant due to pedigree.

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

Originally posted by Tezzie
*sigh* I have to say things twice today, don't i?

The reason why in the top med schools, you see top undergrads represented is because of the quality of students NOT because of name brand recognition.

Ivy Leagues and the rest (Stanford, Chicago, Rice, Northwestern, WashU, Duke, G-town....) along with the prestigious liberal arts schools usually attract huge numbers of talented student. They are people who have worked hard through highschool and will keep on working very hard through college and MCATs. It is their scores that bring them to the interview process and all of their ECs. NOT because the adcoms (at any school) look down on any other applicant due to pedigree.

Agreed. That's the common misconception about med school admissions. People seem to think that the admissions officers would just look down on graduates of non-Ivy schools...which is certainly not the case. The reason SO many graduates of Harvard, Penn, Dartmouth, Duke, etc get into the top medical school is because those top undergrad schools have already done much of the selection for the med school adcomms...they chose the best undergraduate students (based on GPA, SATs, ECs, etc) from thousands of applications that came in from all over the country.

As a result, you're just bound to see much more qualified applicants applying from Berkeley than you would from California State University-Dominguez Hills. In addition, many of the top schools have resources that 2nd and 3rd tier schools just don't have. For instance, I've had soooo many opportunities to work in undergraduate research, get published in a slew of undergraduate journals, etc. Many 2nd and 3rd tier universities simply cannot extend the same opportunities.

I have the undergraduate makeup for Johns Hopkins Medical School from 1999...and it's amazing how certain schools just dominate. Specifically...Harvard, Darmouth, Stanford, Penn, and Brown all did very well (as did Columbia, Cornell, Berkeley, Northwestern, and Duke). But I'm positive that the reason for this is not because the admissions officers are just throwing the applications away for graduates from **insert 2nd, 3rd, or 4th tier school here**. It's because the graduates of the top undergraduate schools are just more qualified in terms of GPA, MCAT, extra-curricular activities, research, etc. Here's the link to the undergraduate makeup of Johns Hopkins Medical School for the incoming class of 1999-2000. Turn to page 14 to see the statistics...

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/education/SOMcatalog/Students.pdf

It becomes even more MORE apparent when you look at law school admissions. This is the link to the undergraduate makeup of Yale Law School (the #1 ranked law school)...please turn to page 153: http://www.yale.edu/bulletin/pdffiles/law2002.pdf

Undergraduate schools represented at Yale Law:
Harvard-80 students
Yale-70
Berkeley-22 students
Darmouth-19 students
Columbia-18 students
Duke-18 students
Cornell-10 students

And now..for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tier public schools:
Univeristy of Florida-1 student
University of Iowa-1 student
University of Indianapolis-1 student
University of Nevada-1 student
Oklahoma State University-1 student
SUNY Binghampton-1 student
Texas A&M-1 student
the list goes on....

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

bump

 

[Ms. Dawson DO]

i actually agree with tezzie and berkeley premed....and a current thread in the mcat section shows some proof of this.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86183

generally the applicants and matriculants from 'higher tiered' schools are performing better and therefore, i think it lends to higher number of students accepted and matriculating to harvard/jhu etc.

although i am not completely naive. there is alot to be said about a name or reputation of a university. i have seen mine open plenty of doors closed to others who attended less reputable schools. so i think there is definitely a combination of both stellar work done by students AND reputation of the schools they attended.

 

[piotr13]

I agree with Ms. Dawson.

 

[piotr13]

I agree with Ms. Dawson.