How much will salaries decrease?

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BubbaGump187

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I know this may be a repetition but here is my 2 question,

1)How much can salaries decrease within the next 10 years for physicians?

2)How likely is it that I can make 200K in a medicine subspecialy in 10 years?

one physician told me that medicare is bankrupt and said he and his buddies are planning on leaving medicine for something else.

others told me that compensation will def decrease

also noticed many docs not sending their kids to med school.

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Perhaps, salaries for primary care will be in the range of 60K to 80K before taxes, if reimbursements keep falling 5% per year, and specialties, maybe 70K to 90K, because the gap will be narrower. There is a huge health care crisis, and unfortunately, most Americans think it is the doctors that are taking all the money, and they still think of them as greedy millionaires. So the easiest solution politically is to slash the physician salaries, even though they are less than 10% of the health care budget. The insurance companies have too strong of a lobby, and most politicians are lawyers, so they will support malpractice lawsuits. Physicians don't have that kind of influence, and when these lawmakers hear that doctors shouldn't do it for the money, the salary cut only becomes easier.

So the point is, be a doctor if you want to heal the sick and injured or if health and the human body interest you. Do not go if you want to be rich or even if you measure success by money. Managed care is in control now, the days of the rich doctor are running out. Medicine is a noble profession, but so is teaching, and look at their salaries.
 
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1)How much can salaries decrease within the next 10 years for physicians?

2)How likely is it that I can make 200K in a medicine subspecialy in 10 years?

1) Salaries will increase.
2) It is absolutely likely. Even the average family practitioner pulls in $200k today.

The basic principle of economics: if demand increases while supply remains the same (relatively speaking) then the value of a service increases. An aging, obese population means that there will be more patients in the future then their ever have been, so reimbursement rates are going to increase, especially for those in private practice. Yeah Medicare/Medicade is in the crapper but I refuse to believe that we will not have some intervention to prevent it from drying up entirely. Couple this with tort reform, universal coverage, and a potential physician shortage; twenty years from now will be the best time ever to practice medicine.
 
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1) Salaries will increase.
2) It is absolutely likely. Even the average family practitioner pulls in $200k today.

The basic principle of economics: if demand increases while supply remains the same (relatively speaking) then the value of a service increases. An aging, obese population means that there will be more patients in the future then their ever have been, so reimbursement rates are going to increase, especially for those in private practice. Yeah Medicare/Medicade is in the crapper but I refuse to believe that we will not have some intervention to prevent it from drying up entirely. Couple this with tort reform, universal coverage, and a potential physician shortage; twenty years from now will be the best time ever to practice medicine.

I think you're being a bit too idealistic. Unlike in many other professions, doctors do not get paid according to market demand. It is the insurance companies that determine the salaries of doctors (unless doctors are cash-only, which is not an easy thing to do unless you're in a rich town). So the basic principles of economics do not work for doctors, because managed care and the government have captured the profession of medicine.

Tort reform will be sporadic, and it may occur in some states, but Democrats will not allow it to occur nationwide. Universal health care should lower physician salaries, not raise them, because it will still be a third party (insurance co's or gov't) that determine the salaries. Yes with retired baby boomers, demand for medical care will certainly be high, but they are coming to the belief that they are entitled to medical care, so they will not easily be willing to pay for it. The insurance companies care more about their own bucks than they do about physician shortages or the welfare of the people, like typical businesses, so don't expect them to be generous with reimbursements.

An intervention may occur if the majority of doctors reassert themselves and get their act together, and if the public opinion forgoes the stereotypical rich and greedy doctor with the mercedes, mansion, vacation house, and country club membership, or at least realizes what it takes to become and be a doctor. But in this democracy, changes are slow, and I don't see this happening any time soon.
 
1) Salaries will increase.
2) It is absolutely likely. Even the average family practitioner pulls in $200k today.

No the average family practitioner earns around 145K, and that is not increasing at all. With higher malpractice premiums, overhead, and med school debts, without higher salaries, even that is becoming difficult to live off of.
 
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This whole subject drives me batty....

One thing that everyone must keep in mind is the fact that, in medicine, a true "salary" is a rarity; we are paid in a piecemeal, per unit work fashion -- whether you are a direct recipient of this process or a paid employee the basic premise remains the same.

Reimbursement per unit service is likely to continue to decline -- Medicare's reimbursement rates will fall and take private insurers with them. If physicians continue to work (and get reimbursed) as things are currently, then yes, you can expect to lose real income year in and year out.
 
No the average family practitioner earns around 145K, and that is not increasing at all. With higher malpractice premiums, overhead, and med school debts, without higher salaries, even that is becoming difficult to live off of.

Agree with this figure. FM and Peds tend to be stuck in this range, with hours increasing annually to boot. There were articles in the NY Times this past year about FM docs having to sell stuff on ebay, or send their spouses back into the workforce, to make their mortgage. The notion that salaries are going up and that all doctors make bank may have been true a couple of decades ago, but is really a head in the sand approach these days.
 
Perhaps, salaries for primary care will be in the range of 60K to 80K before taxes, if reimbursements keep falling 5% per year, and specialties, maybe 70K to 90K, because the gap will be narrower.

I'm just a pre-med trying to understant the system better, so if I'm way off feel free to tell me so. But from what I understand, physician assistants get paid in that range or higher. Part of the appeal in the healthcare system, if I'm not mistaken, of PA's and other mid-levels is that they can do much of the work of a physician for less cost to the payer/employer. If, in the future, physicians make less money then PA's,wouldn't HMO's, other insurance companies and groups employing PA's and physicians prefer to reimburse/hire physicians, for the same reason that they like mid-levels?

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Physician_Assistant_(PA)/Salary
 
I'm just a pre-med trying to understant the system better, so if I'm way off feel free to tell me so. But from what I understand, physician assistants get paid in that range or higher. Part of the appeal in the healthcare system, if I'm not mistaken, of PA's and other mid-levels is that they can do much of the work of a physician for less cost to the payer/employer. If, in the future, physicians make less money then PA's,wouldn't HMO's, other insurance companies and groups employing PA's and physicians prefer to reimburse/hire physicians, for the same reason that they like mid-levels?

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Physician_Assistant_(PA)/Salary

that estimate is ridiculous nurwollen, and you're right that there'd be an equilibrium where you'd never hire a pa and a physician for the same salary. there's no way salaries will ever decrease that much--not even close.
 
Perhaps, salaries for primary care will be in the range of 60K to 80K before taxes, if reimbursements keep falling 5% per year, and specialties, maybe 70K to 90K.

I just don't see that happening without any type of huge backlash from physicians.
 
I just don't see that happening without any type of huge backlash from physicians.

Nooo they are not allowed to backlash!!!!! They HAVE to be altruistic and kind no matter what!

*sarcastic*
 
Where was the backlash from $300k to $100k for primary care?

When did they earn 300K?? The 80s?
If so, then wow, my prediction may have some merit
 
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I would say that there was a backlash in the salary of PCPs going from $300k to 150k. It just wasn't in the form of protest, but in the form of a mass exodus towards other specialties. Resulting the shortage we have today.
 
This all seems to ridiculous to digest, but nonetheless, something we as the future need to not only be aware of, but ADDRESS !!!
There is enough money currently in the form of medical advocate groups and private associations to garner a real and effective lobby effort.
This is a must if anything is going to influence gov't policy and regulations that will continue to accelerate the falling wages of the modern MD.
Please do not disgard this notion with a defeatist attitude assuming that the attorney or big pharma's contingencies are to big and established to have any effect .... they got that way because they started with what they could afford to invest into lobbying and have snowballed since, and we need to get something started or we will be like the docs in the 90's, gaping holes and all!
 
I would say that there was a backlash in the salary of PCPs going from $300k to 150k. It just wasn't in the form of protest, but in the form of a mass exodus towards other specialties. Resulting the shortage we have today.

There was no mass exodus to other specialties. The shortage we have today is the result of the combination of a huge baby boomer generation, the fact that old people live longer these days, and the fact that residency slots are fixed in number. Old people have more medical needs. Hence when a lot of them get old at the same time, and you don't increase the number of doctors, you get a physician shortage.

You didn't see lots of FPs becoming dermatologists, ophthalmologists, etc. Never happened. There was no protest. Physicians are poorly organized and as a group not well loved by the voting public (who still think they are overpaid). Insurers swept in and took over medicine, and simply started dictating what they would and wouldn't pay for and how much. The declining reimbursements resulted in lower salaries or longer hours for non-specialists, and made certain specialty procedures temporary cash cows. And this is but the first step. Some unified health care is going to happen at some point. And you can bet insurers, not physicians, will be at the helm. So yeah, expect further cuts.

I recently went to a talk where various bigwhigs in academic medicine on the panel seemed to agree that a 10% decline in salaries was a pretty likely estimate of what could be expected in the near term as a consequence of some form of "universal health care". Might not sound like a lot, but it is.
 
I recently went to a talk where various bigwhigs in academic medicine on the panel seemed to agree that a 10% decline in salaries was a pretty likely estimate of what could be expected in the near term as a consequence of some form of "universal health care". Might not sound like a lot, but it is.

Hell yeah it is a big cut, especially when you have 200k in loans accruing interest between 6.8-8.5%!
 
I recently went to a talk where various bigwhigs in academic medicine on the panel seemed to agree that a 10% decline in salaries was a pretty likely estimate of what could be expected in the near term as a consequence of some form of "universal health care". Might not sound like a lot, but it is.

So if a decrease of 10% is an educated guess/ probability in the near term, would you venture to make an educated guess for the next 10 years, give or take a few, which is when I (hopefully) will be done with residency? I'm not trying to dwell on a controversial topic, just make educated decisions about my future.
 
So if a decrease of 10% is an educated guess/ probability in the near term, would you venture to make an educated guess for the next 10 years, give or take a few, which is when I (hopefully) will be done with residency? I'm not trying to dwell on a controversial topic, just make educated decisions about my future.

I'm not sure you can make an educated guess 10 years away. I would suspect that you might have the 10% real decline and maybe another 7-10% decline against inflation, plus see student loans/tuition go up with inflation. Which should make things tighter. But still a decent upper-middle-class salary. But anyone who tells you they know this for sure, or alternatively predicts an increase in salary by then is guessing. There is only data showing a loss against inflation over the past decade, and the likelihood that insurance companies will continue to slice reimbursements. Everything else is speculation.
 
I have no peer reviewed research to base my argument on, but I think that it is silly for us to be thinking that our salaries are somehow going to continue to decrease. People here are writing as if one day, we won't be paid at all for what we do. Furthermore, I don't know of any physician in my personal life that doesn't live much better than everyone else. And I know family practice physicians who have their own practices primarily serving medicaid and medicare patients. Yes you have to be smart, yes you have to build a big patient base, but that's life.

For example, one doc I know has nothing but medicaid and medicare patients. But since he's one of the few who accepts medicaid still, he has literally 2k plus patients who seem him on a biweekly/monthly basis for chronic problems. He has a paid off 500k house, and lives very comfortably. Does he work in a group, no. Does he work in academic medicine, no. Does he work for some fancy hospital, no. But he doesnt seem to be affected by whatever downfalls everyone else is facing.

Of course not everyone is going to go into IM or FM, but my argument is that I really find it hard to believe that docs are starving or having to sell things on ebay. If they are, then most likely they are just outliers.

And to be honest, what industry in this country is seeing income expansion? No one. My dad hasn't seen a salary increase in at least 6 years but works harder than ever. He's just happy he has a job while his kids finish med school. So I disagree with the thinking that docs have it bad, we work hard and are given some of the highest salaries....period.....in this country. And that will never change. If it does, no one would go into medicine and then government would have to fix that. The reason docs made so much years ago is partly because there weren't as many of them, in fact up until recently there was a huge shortage in many specialties that are now considered ultra competitive (that's where all those South Asian cardiologists came from I guess).
 
I'm not in medicine and I'm no expert on your guys salaries but just reading from above I noticed two things:

1) I have a true respect for the profession of medicine and being a doctor and do think you guys should be paid with salaries that honor the commitment and time you guys put in. You deserve to be paid well but from what I gather from what I've read here and elsewhere, even a low end paying speciality like FP or Peds makes on average of what 140k? Now, I'm not saying you guys deserve a pay cut but I think the first step to fighting declining salaries is realizing that you guys currently are getting paid pretty well and not try to make it seem like you are struggling. I was raised in southern orange county near Irvine which is a pretty damm expensive area to live in and my parents made a combined ~80k and while we didn't live a life of luxury, they worked hard and I always felt a comfortable living style. That's with them working jobs they do not even particularly enjoy -- at least with medicine you are doing what you ideally do love. So I think the whole, "we need to work at McDonalds on the side" to get by thing just doesn't sound legit to the general public even with your loans. When things like that are said, I think it just turns people off in the general public who are making considerably less then you (warrented or not) and just hurts your cause. Don't get me wrong, I don't see you guys as the problem and managed care has screwed you guys over (and healthcare in general) and I agree with Law2Doc on most of his points on why you guys have had trouble in the last 20-30 years. That is just my opinion as an outsider, maybe I am ignorant to the facts and if so I apologize.

2) I do agree with the above posters that you guys will most likely see a decline in salaries over time and I hope you guys are able to fight it somehow. I do not want to imagine a future where doctors salaries are being cut so heavily that every high end student starts switching career paths because he does not feel like medicine can support the life style he wants to lead anymore. As hopeful it might seem to think that doctors become doctors simply to "help" people, that is as naive a notion as pharmaceutical companies making products to "help" people rather then to make a profit.
 
First of all, to all of the noobs and pre-meds out there that are speculating about salary and lifestyle, spend half of that time on actually getting into school or studying harder and you will be just fine.

Secondly, when it comes to people nagging on Canadian salaries vs American salaries, yes they are SLIGHTLY lower, but the income POTENTIAL is still the same. The money you make is centered on how hard you work. Canadian culture is a little different from ours (personal experience) and many people work fewer hours. Also, their school costs are ridiculously less than ours. Many Canadians come down to US schools because seats in Canada are really selective due to a slow growth in the number of seats available compared to population growth.


Check it out.

Also, be aware that primary care is by far one of the best specialties for lifestyle when it comes to family. The large number of female physicians in these fields who work part time due to family will bring this number down significantly. It's hard to be a part-time neurosurgeon, while seeing patients "just on Thursdays and Fridays" to fill in for a large group family practice usually lets you get to the kids' soccer games and recitals.

PC and IM will never get down to $60,000 because that is not even enough to pay your loans and taxes.
 
Where was the backlash from $300k to $100k for primary care? No wonder everyone is fighting for derm and plastics spots where self-pay rules.
The backlash is the fact that >50% of IM docs are over 50. What is going to happen when no one can find a doctor to treat them? There is only so much that you can cut before people won't go to med school and you won't have primary care doctors for all the elderly. It is already hard enough to find a doctor that takes medicare in today's world.
 
The backlash is the fact that >50% of IM docs are over 50. What is going to happen when no one can find a doctor to treat them? There is only so much that you can cut before people won't go to med school and you won't have primary care doctors for all the elderly. It is already hard enough to find a doctor that takes medicare in today's world.

Then they will rely on nurses (NP/DNP) for all their primary care. Nurses are lobbying hard to fill in the gaps and do what doctors once did, and it seems to be working. DNPs will be requirements for all nurse practitioners by 2015, and they will most definitely make the most out of the "doctor" title to portray themselves as physicians. Most people won't notice the difference.

Will it give an inferior quality of health care? Of course.
Will it help cut down health care costs? Perhaps.
Does the government value the excellent quality of America's physicians or saving a few bucks to let the nurses do the job? Make your own guess.

Check out "Dr." Mundinger's article
 
I don't see what all the complaining is about. With an average salary of $200,000/year, American physicians exist within the wealthiest 1.5% of the wealthiest nation on earth. Even when the large student debt and 7+ years of training are taken into account, one has to be pretty materialistic and greedy to whine about salary.
 
I don't see what all the complaining is about. With an average salary of $200,000/year, American physicians exist within the wealthiest 1.5% of the wealthiest nation on earth. Even when the large student debt and 7+ years of training are taken into account, one has to be pretty materialistic and greedy to whine about salary.

We are worried about the large negative pressure on physician income. First there is the fact that reimbursements are being cut. Second, inflation will due you in. Medicine is the profession that loses a lot of ground to inflation each and every year. 200,000 20 years from now could be worth 80k in buying power today. I love how you say 7 years and debt like its nothing.
 
Perhaps, salaries for primary care will be in the range of 60K to 80K before taxes, if reimbursements keep falling 5% per year, and specialties, maybe 70K to 90K, because the gap will be narrower. There is a huge health care crisis, and unfortunately, most Americans think it is the doctors that are taking all the money, and they still think of them as greedy millionaires. So the easiest solution politically is to slash the physician salaries, even though they are less than 10% of the health care budget. The insurance companies have too strong of a lobby, and most politicians are lawyers, so they will support malpractice lawsuits. Physicians don't have that kind of influence, and when these lawmakers hear that doctors shouldn't do it for the money, the salary cut only becomes easier.

So the point is, be a doctor if you want to heal the sick and injured or if health and the human body interest you. Do not go if you want to be rich or even if you measure success by money. Managed care is in control now, the days of the rich doctor are running out. Medicine is a noble profession, but so is teaching, and look at their salaries.

I should of never went into medicine. I just couldn't see myself doing anything else. With that being said, I didn't put all this work and money in to make just as much as a nurse and/or PA. This is absurd. :mad:

We'll see how long doctors spend in the room with their patients trying to keep their heads above water. Where I live, 90K would not be enough to afford a house.
 
We'll see how long doctors spend in the room with their patients trying to keep their heads above water. Where I live, 90K would not be enough to afford a house.


I agree

most of the doctors, made medicine like a mony business
I like to, to earn more money much bigger month earnings,
but where is the medicine quality? do we spend enought time to be better doctor?
 
I don't see what all the complaining is about. With an average salary of $200,000/year, American physicians exist within the wealthiest 1.5% of the wealthiest nation on earth. Even when the large student debt and 7+ years of training are taken into account, one has to be pretty materialistic and greedy to whine about salary.

:sleep:
 

Seriously... We are fighting to keep our salaries constant (which means a loss due to inflation). Why is it that it is OK for professional athletes to want more and more $? Why is it okay for nurses, teachers, engineers, police officers, janitors, financial advisors, and everyone to want to have an increase in salary, but not okay for doctors? Why are we one of the few professions that are fighting cuts rather then fighting for increase in reimbursement?
 
Seriously... We are fighting to keep our salaries constant (which means a loss due to inflation). Why is it that it is OK for professional athletes to want more and more $? Why is it okay for nurses, teachers, engineers, police officers, janitors, financial advisors, and everyone to want to have an increase in salary, but not okay for doctors? Why are we one of the few professions that are fighting cuts rather then fighting for increase in reimbursement?

Its because everyone thinks its deplorable that as physicians we too worry about making ends meat, and paying our loans, and living our lives. The patient is important but my life is MORE important.

Most of us wont start making physician salaries until we are 30 (most alittle older then that). At that time we are atleast 200,000$ in debt and all we have to show for it is our education.

For the average undergraduate who got their BS and started working they are what. 15-60(MAX)... When they are 30 they have been at their job for what, 10 years. and are thinking about buying houses and raising their families. I'll be thinking about paying rent, and slowly chipping away at my loans.

I thoroughly believe that for 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of grad, and 3+ yrs of postgrad training. We deserve to see raises and not cuts. It's sad though that people out there really still think doctors are rich, and that feels like the stepping stone that everyone looks for to save money in the healthcare industry.
 
It's sad though that people out there really still think doctors are rich, and that feels like the stepping stone that everyone looks for to save money in the healthcare industry.

Absolutely. Are you really a Pre-med? :thumbup:

The worst thing about it all is that physician reimbursement makes a very little percentage of what this country pays for in healthcare costs. But we are the lowest hanging fruit on the tree due to the lay public thinking we are greedy bastards.
 
We should all come together a boutique medicine in all specialties!!:smuggrin:
 
Absolutely. Are you really a Pre-med? :thumbup:

The worst thing about it all is that physician reimbursement makes a very little percentage of what this country pays for in healthcare costs. But we are the lowest hanging fruit on the tree due to the lay public thinking we are greedy bastards.

Naw, just never got to updating my status. Is your name pronounced bad-ass hairday, or bad asshair day. (Mentally, im 5 years old)
 
Roughly 2% on health-care costs go to the doctors of this country. Cut their salaries in half and you have saved a whole 1%.
Medical education is free in Canada and Britain(or heavily, heavily discounted in special cases). Not here.
Pay 250k for the education and make 60k a year. Not going to happen. People would flee the profession in droves.
Doctors work very hard to become doctors. I find it very amusing that serious discussions on salaries are interspersed with these idiotic posts judging doctors for wanting to make a good living. These people have no concept of what sacrifices it takes to become a doctor. Do some simple math before you say a salary of 60-80k is reasonable. And if you can't do that much, then just ask me and I'll do the math for you.
 
Roughly 2% on health-care costs go to the doctors of this country. Cut their salaries in half and you have saved a whole 1%.
Medical education is free in Canada and Britain(or heavily, heavily discounted in special cases). Not here.
Pay 250k for the education and make 60k a year. Not going to happen. People would flee the profession in droves.
Doctors work very hard to become doctors. I find it very amusing that serious discussions on salaries are interspersed with these idiotic posts judging doctors for wanting to make a good living. These people have no concept of what sacrifices it takes to become a doctor. Do some simple math before you say a salary of 60-80k is reasonable. And if you can't do that much, then just ask me and I'll do the math for you.

Insurance companies have no incentive to raise reimbursements. Medicare is trying to cut reimbursements as a convenient way of health care cost cutting. When politicians talk about health care, all they talk about is insurance premiums and coverage, but never talk about how they will help doctors.

And since nurse practitioners have a strong lobby, they are successfully convincing lawmakers that they are just as good as doctors if not better. If we say one thing about their lack of training and skills, they will just portray doctors as arrogant and greedy and egocentric. Take a guess at what that will mean for their incomes. Just look at this. Their average salary has gone from 52K to 81K in 10 years with no signs of slowing down. It's only a matter of time until it surpasses FPs and Peds, which have steadily declining salaries. And remember, they have no med school debt and much less malpractice liability, as well as easier hours.

And do our lawmakers really care about the recent hardships of doctors? I really doubt it. Its easy to say that nobody will want to go into medicine anymore, but in fact, med schools are as competitive as ever. If big changes happen, then maybe a 3.5 GPA and 30 MCAT will just be as competitive as a 3.8 GPA and 35 MCAT is now. And med schools may just accept a bit more than 3% of applicants. They will still fill up as usual, and with crushing debt, the new doctors will have no time to find new careers.
Our government cannot afford to subsidize our med school education, and it doesn't seem like they care about it either.
 
^^^^^^ Your post circles back around to the point that physicians need to lobby more. If NPs can do it, we should be able to do it also.

You make the point about medicare cutting reimbursement and the private insurers cutting. I think this is the problem. Private insurers should NOT be allowed to cut reimbursements especially when they are charging higher premiums then ever before. They are also rolling in greater profits then ever before.
 
The sad part is Barack Obama is likely going to put this country on a slippery slope. If he at all succeeds in (starting to) / (regulate)ing the insurance industry / healthcare you better bet your ass insurance companies aren't going to take a hit to their bottom line, they will either exit the industry, or physicians are going to feel it. And Obama is going to say that's just fine because others physicians in the world don't make as much money as we do and they do fine. Enjoy your way of life while you can, its possible it wont last much longer. If you don't see this your either blind or stupid.
 
The sad part is Barack Obama is likely going to put this country on a slippery slope. If he at all succeeds in (starting to) / (regulate)ing the insurance industry / healthcare you better bet your ass insurance companies aren't going to take a hit to their bottom line, they will either exit the industry, or physicians are going to feel it. And Obama is going to say that's just fine because others physicians in the world don't make as much money as we do and they do fine. Enjoy your way of life while you can, its possible it wont last much longer. If you don't see this your either blind or stupid.
Can you explain? If they exit, that may be a good thing for us, but how exactly will doctors feel it in some other scenerio?
 
Can you explain? If they exit, that may be a good thing for us, but how exactly will doctors feel it in some other scenerio?

If there are no insurance companies who is going to pay you for services rendered? The patient? Doubt it. If insurance companies are no more than the Gov't will step in and take over and guess how awesome that will be? If we as physicians don't like it than we can go to another country there are plenty of doctors in this world who are driving cabs instead of being a doctor because they get paid more driving a hack. See Uruguay for an example of this.
 
If there are no insurance companies who is going to pay you for services rendered? The patient? Doubt it. If insurance companies are no more than the Gov't will step in and take over and guess how awesome that will be? If we as physicians don't like it than we can go to another country there are plenty of doctors in this world who are driving cabs instead of being a doctor because they get paid more driving a hack. See Uruguay for an example of this.

You know what, I understand everyones concern with the government picking up all of the healthcare expenditures leading to a socialized system. However, one thing should be noted about a socialized system, physicians would finally be able to really negotiate rates and be able to unionize. The Canadian Medical Association has worked hard and has increased physician pay a good amount over the past 20 years.
 
You know what, I understand everyones concern with the government picking up all of the healthcare expenditures leading to a socialized system. However, one thing should be noted about a socialized system, physicians would finally be able to really negotiate rates and be able to unionize. The Canadian Medical Association has worked hard and has increased physician pay a good amount over the past 20 years.

Unions crumble under their own weight...see current shrinking union numbers in all areas of industry in the US. Plus, a person who is "oppressed" by a car company that works on an assembly line making radiators is more sympathetic to the general public than someone who has life saving skill but does not utilize said skill until promise of payment.

I don't care if you are democrat, republican, libertarian or indy, Obama is about to be in the White House and has used physicians as a whipping boy to get there in a way...a subtle way. Obama is for universal healthcare, meaning essentially placing you and I on the government payroll. It has failed in virtually every country that it has been implemented and will fail here as well. Salaries will decrease drastically and there will be nothing that can be done about it. Furthermore, Obama is all for the American dream up to $250,000 per year. His campaign has made anyone or business making over that amount the enemy.

Even if universal healthcare is not passed right away this will hit virtually any private practice doc hard. If you are a family practice doc, your clinic will almost assuredly generate more than $250K per year. It does not have to be your salary, just what the clinic generates (collections to pay nurses, receptionist, bills...any income from collections). You will see a huge tax increase.

Obama's rhetoric sounds great until put into practice, then the wheels fall off the wagon. Here is a question as to tax rates...what if Obama simply taxes those making over $250K per year, businesses and individuals and it is not enough to pay for his many proposed entitlements and expenditures? Answer: He will move this line back to those who make $200K or $150K. This will be in addition to rolling back the Bush tax cuts.

The old docs that I work around that lived through the Carter presidency are planning on packing it in and retiring. They lived through what amounted to 70% tax rates in the late 70s. You couple a 70% tax rate with decreasing reimbursement and you pour jet fuel on a budding healthcare crisis. From a tax standpoint, Obama is trying what Jimmy Carter tried. For those of you who don't know or have read slanted historical accounts, Carter, from a fiscal and national security perspective, makes George Bush look like George Washington.

In summary, things have the potential, unless cooler heads prevail, of getting extremely out of hand. What looks great on paper is seldom the same in practice. I think Americans, when forced to wait 9 months to a year to get an ACL reconstructed under a universal care scenario, or when forced to have their family doc have less than stellar intelligence and/or skill under high tax and/or universal scenario, will decide that we have gone about this the wrong way and the CHANGE that was promised was not good change.

In all due candor, politically, I am a libertarian.
 
You know what, I understand everyones concern with the government picking up all of the healthcare expenditures leading to a socialized system. However, one thing should be noted about a socialized system, physicians would finally be able to really negotiate rates and be able to unionize. The Canadian Medical Association has worked hard and has increased physician pay a good amount over the past 20 years.

Seems to me, if all physicians have to participate in a single payer system, then there would be no incentive at all for the payor to negotiate rates. If there were several or many payors, physicians could choose who to associate with, which insurance companies to work with based on the ones that pay reasonably well. Insurance companies might risk being stuck with bad docs on their list of providers, or in some cases maybe have no specialists of a certain type for their patients.

As far as unionizing, it may be illegal, and certainly some of the activities a physician union might want to undertake would be illegal such as collective bargaining.

Lets face reality, physicians are poor at negotiating and other business endeavors, in general. Why are they poor at business? Because government, who runs most of the medical schools, want them to be. How many classes have you received in evaluating contracts or playing hardball with third party payers? I'm guessing none. That is how many I got. Trouble is, these are issues you will face all the time in practice. You should all do yourselves a favor and take some business classes if you are premed. Then become an insurance company exec, so you can be in control and make a great living, like the docs used to.
 
Unions crumble under their own weight...see current shrinking union numbers in all areas of industry in the US. Plus, a person who is "oppressed" by a car company that works on an assembly line making radiators is more sympathetic to the general public than someone who has life saving skill but does not utilize said skill until promise of payment.

I don't care if you are democrat, republican, libertarian or indy, Obama is about to be in the White House and has used physicians as a whipping boy to get there in a way...a subtle way. Obama is for universal healthcare, meaning essentially placing you and I on the government payroll. It has failed in virtually every country that it has been implemented and will fail here as well. Salaries will decrease drastically and there will be nothing that can be done about it. Furthermore, Obama is all for the American dream up to $250,000 per year. His campaign has made anyone or business making over that amount the enemy.

Even if universal healthcare is not passed right away this will hit virtually any private practice doc hard. If you are a family practice doc, your clinic will almost assuredly generate more than $250K per year. It does not have to be your salary, just what the clinic generates (collections to pay nurses, receptionist, bills...any income from collections). You will see a huge tax increase.

Obama's rhetoric sounds great until put into practice, then the wheels fall off the wagon. Here is a question as to tax rates...what if Obama simply taxes those making over $250K per year, businesses and individuals and it is not enough to pay for his many proposed entitlements and expenditures? Answer: He will move this line back to those who make $200K or $150K. This will be in addition to rolling back the Bush tax cuts.

The old docs that I work around that lived through the Carter presidency are planning on packing it in and retiring. They lived through what amounted to 70% tax rates in the late 70s. You couple a 70% tax rate with decreasing reimbursement and you pour jet fuel on a budding healthcare crisis. From a tax standpoint, Obama is trying what Jimmy Carter tried. For those of you who don't know or have read slanted historical accounts, Carter, from a fiscal and national security perspective, makes George Bush look like George Washington.

In summary, things have the potential, unless cooler heads prevail, of getting extremely out of hand. What looks great on paper is seldom the same in practice. I think Americans, when forced to wait 9 months to a year to get an ACL reconstructed under a universal care scenario, or when forced to have their family doc have less than stellar intelligence and/or skill under high tax and/or universal scenario, will decide that we have gone about this the wrong way and the CHANGE that was promised was not good change.

In all due candor, politically, I am a libertarian.
That cannot happen, in my opinion, without a huge backlash, not just from doctors, but everyone who makes high income. Small businesses will not be able to function with such oppressive taxes. And speaking of the 70% taxes of the past, there were a lot more loopholes back then than there are now. Entitlement spending will explode when baby boomers start retiring. With liberals levying oppressive taxes and expanding the already unsustainable entitlement programs, and neocons chanting for more wars and aggression, a libertarian revolution may just happen. Ron Paul is already making a lot of noise. And the path of this country is not looking promising at all.

And if government really takes over the whole health care system, and its extremely inefficient and slow, then I think there will be a good number of people who will be willing to pay their doctors. Those doctors may not be able to do lucrative procedures and make a killing, but many will probably be practicing medicine the simple and independent way, as in the past.
 
That cannot happen, in my opinion, without a huge backlash, not just from doctors, but everyone who makes high income. Small businesses will not be able to function with such oppressive taxes. And speaking of the 70% taxes of the past, there were a lot more loopholes back then than there are now. Entitlement spending will explode when baby boomers start retiring. With liberals levying oppressive taxes and expanding the already unsustainable entitlement programs, and neocons chanting for more wars and aggression, a libertarian revolution may just happen. Ron Paul is already making a lot of noise. And the path of this country is not looking promising at all.

And if government really takes over the whole health care system, and its extremely inefficient and slow, then I think there will be a good number of people who will be willing to pay their doctors. Those doctors may not be able to do lucrative procedures and make a killing, but many will probably be practicing medicine the simple and independent way, as in the past.


Its hard to say. Small businesses and drs are poor lobbyists for sure, but big businesses have the means to find and exploit loopholes. Thus they may not worry about these tax increases.

People pay their doctors with their own money? People barely consider their health their own responsibility anymore. They figure if it aint broke dont fix it. But ur body like any other machine needs to be maintained. People are happy eating their cookies infront of the tv until they get diabetes and have to a cut a wall down to get outta their house but do they put the cookies down?

By putting the idea that people have the right to healtcare your taking the responsibility out of their own hands and making them thinks it up to somebody else.
 
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