How much say do PAs have in patient treatment?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

SCDP

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Messages
285
Reaction score
61
I am not a big believer in prescribing pills like crazy. There are so many side effects and issues that can arise from people being on prescription drugs. Obviously they have their place, especially in acute and life threatening situations, but overall I would rather prescribe to my patients to change their lifestyles and at least try to integrative and natural approaches before going down the route of pills and their negative effects.

My fear is that being a PA you won't get much say and the doctor will just order you to prescribe pills in many situations where there are safer alternatives.

So how much say does a PA really have?

Members don't see this ad.
 
I am not a big believer in prescribing pills like crazy. There are so many side effects and issues that can arise from people being on prescription drugs. Obviously they have their place, especially in acute and life threatening situations, but overall I would rather prescribe to my patients to change their lifestyles and at least try to integrative and natural approaches before going down the route of pills and their negative effects.

My fear is that being a PA you won't get much say and the doctor will just order you to prescribe pills in many situations where there are safer alternatives.

So how much say does a PA really have?

As a medical student who will be a doctor, I have to say, this is most physicians goals as well. Now, I'm an Osteopathic Medical Student.... so I may be not the best person to ask, because we are very much so taught "Holistic" medicine. Our goals are always to have the patient modify their lifestyle as best as we can. However, at the end of the day, there are guidelines and you have to follow them, or you get sued.

For example, in some instances, like a person who has hypertension or diabetes, you need to prescribe them medications if they are already diagnosed and having symptoms. If they leave your office with a BP of 180/100 and they're not on any meds, you need to put them on meds because if they go out and have an aneurysm 4 days later, you're gonna get sued.

Medications are all about risk-reduction. They're a necessary evil. All physicians counsel patients on healthy life-style modifications, especially in patients who are "pre-Diabetic" or "pre-Hypertensive" because it's at those points in which the person can still healthily turn themselves around. But, this is America and people want results now and they don't want to work up a sweat or go outside and do anything that can make them healthier.

You seem like you'd love a more holistic approach to medicine - which, unfortunately, is mostly found in your upper middle-class to upper class patient demographics where the people understand/have the time to actually go outside and go to the gym, buy all organic, etc etc
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
As a PA, you are NOT an independent provider. You practice at the leisure of how your supervising physician would have you practice. If you don’t feel comfortable with that arrangement, then being a PA will not suit you well. They own you in all 50 states, and every health system.

The big question you should be asking yourself is why you would want to venture far from the kind of practice that would be in line with what a physician would want to see from his or her PA? You are suggesting that you would like to have latitude to do things that would invite scrutiny, so that is why I ask.

Medicine is about more than just not being sued, it’s about helping your patients. Exercise and eating right are great. We encourage it. But science tells us that when someone hasnt been walking or eating right, or even if they have genetic predispositions underlying their illness, then there are protocols associated with treatment that generally involve more than just continuing to encourage exercise and diet. They don’t come to you to tell them to walk and eat right, so if you send them out the door after ignoring their condition when you could have helped fix it, then you are in the wrong place professionally. Someone who frequently departs from established protocol isn’t actually practicing medicine that is in their patients best interest, even if it makes the provider feel that they are operating in a more holistic sense.

There is a saying that I love which asks the question “what do you call alternative medicine that actually works?.... you call it medicine.” That is to say that when an herb or supplement is proven by scientific study to be efficacious, then the medical community typically brings it into the fold as a treatment that we use. But that scientific verification tends to be the bus stop where “natural and integrative” approaches are famous for getting off. As providers, we would be the first to suggest most treatments that are domonstrated to work better than a placebo. Psyche providers are booked out months in advance, and I lose nothing if my patients have another weapon to throw at their mental health problems. But they deserve to not have their time and money (or the insurance company or government’s money) wasted while I act as an apothecary to mix up potions that have only hearsay to reccomend it. It’s hard enough to make potions that work when your ingedients have strong empirical evidence to support their use.

A lot of the world is beset with false ideas that we pay heed to, organic being one of many. It doesn’t matter if the tomato you eat is organic or not, just eat a tomato... there is no difference from a science standpoint. It sounds like you are stuck on an idea of “natural” approaches being superior simply because it seems like nature is a simple and clean place, free from imbalance. There might be merit to many aspects of that, but consider that arsenic and hemlock are natural substances, yet deadly to us. The natural state of man seems to be diseased, vulnerable, and having low life expectancy. The closer we are to our natural state of living, it seems that we tend to die younger. We should look around and marvel at where we are now because humanity started the process long ago of clawing ourselves away from folk medicine.

My point isn’t to mock those who aren’t embraced by the medical community, but to highlight how we pick and choose the things we are going to believe. That is not as problematic when it takes place on the individual level, because we have to make our own decisions, even if we use our freedom to make poor ones. When we become providers, there is a higher standard for what we present to our patients. My guess is that if you were to pursue becoming a PA, you would have your eyes open to best practice approaches that would cause you to abandon many of your preconceptions and biases regarding traditional medicine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I am not a big believer in prescribing pills like crazy. There are so many side effects and issues that can arise from people being on prescription drugs. Obviously they have their place, especially in acute and life threatening situations, but overall I would rather prescribe to my patients to change their lifestyles and at least try to integrative and natural approaches before going down the route of pills and their negative effects.

My fear is that being a PA you won't get much say and the doctor will just order you to prescribe pills in many situations where there are safer alternatives.

So how much say does a PA really have?
that only works for some conditions and then only for the small fraction of patient's that actually do make changes.....so once you learn more you will start prescribing pills
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Would be better for you to go to med school so you can call the shots. But it won't take long for you to understand that your hands are tied when it comes to practicing medicine the way you want. Sure, there are things you can do, but you can not deviate far away from the norms, otherwise, you will find yourself in deep water.
 
As a PA, you are NOT an independent provider. You practice at the leisure of how your supervising physician would have you practice. If you don’t feel comfortable with that arrangement, then being a PA will not suit you well. They own you in all 50 states, and every health system.

The big question you should be asking yourself is why you would want to venture far from the kind of practice that would be in line with what a physician would want to see from his or her PA? You are suggesting that you would like to have latitude to do things that would invite scrutiny, so that is why I ask.

Medicine is about more than just not being sued, it’s about helping your patients. Exercise and eating right are great. We encourage it. But science tells us that when someone hasnt been walking or eating right, or even if they have genetic predispositions underlying their illness, then there are protocols associated with treatment that generally involve more than just continuing to encourage exercise and diet. They don’t come to you to tell them to walk and eat right, so if you send them out the door after ignoring their condition when you could have helped fix it, then you are in the wrong place professionally. Someone who frequently departs from established protocol isn’t actually practicing medicine that is in their patients best interest, even if it makes the provider feel that they are operating in a more holistic sense.

There is a saying that I love which asks the question “what do you call alternative medicine that actually works?.... you call it medicine.” That is to say that when an herb or supplement is proven by scientific study to be efficacious, then the medical community typically brings it into the fold as a treatment that we use. But that scientific verification tends to be the bus stop where “natural and integrative” approaches are famous for getting off. As providers, we would be the first to suggest most treatments that are domonstrated to work better than a placebo. Psyche providers are booked out months in advance, and I lose nothing if my patients have another weapon to throw at their mental health problems. But they deserve to not have their time and money (or the insurance company or government’s money) wasted while I act as an apothecary to mix up potions that have only hearsay to reccomend it. It’s hard enough to make potions that work when your ingedients have strong empirical evidence to support their use.

A lot of the world is beset with false ideas that we pay heed to, organic being one of many. It doesn’t matter if the tomato you eat is organic or not, just eat a tomato... there is no difference from a science standpoint. It sounds like you are stuck on an idea of “natural” approaches being superior simply because it seems like nature is a simple and clean place, free from imbalance. There might be merit to many aspects of that, but consider that arsenic and hemlock are natural substances, yet deadly to us. The natural state of man seems to be diseased, vulnerable, and having low life expectancy. The closer we are to our natural state of living, it seems that we tend to die younger. We should look around and marvel at where we are now because humanity started the process long ago of clawing ourselves away from folk medicine.

My point isn’t to mock those who aren’t embraced by the medical community, but to highlight how we pick and choose the things we are going to believe. That is not as problematic when it takes place on the individual level, because we have to make our own decisions, even if we use our freedom to make poor ones. When we become providers, there is a higher standard for what we present to our patients. My guess is that if you were to pursue becoming a PA, you would have your eyes open to best practice approaches that would cause you to abandon many of your preconceptions and biases regarding traditional medicine.

The same "scientifically backed" treatments that are profusely used in modern medicine are also scientifically backed to cause patients side effects and issues. I get what you are saying, especially with the idea that many patients just won't change their lifestyle and just need meds, but those meds can be harmful too.

Cancer treatments are cancer causing, plenty of drugs have negative side effects and can be addictive, physician caused deaths are far too many, etc....

I am not saying I want to just tell patients to use natural treatments and change their lifestyle and leave it at that. But at least when there is some evidence to try natural treatments for certain issues, I would rather have patients try those out, with really no side effects, versus telling them to go onto things that are potentially harmful.

Like heck for a regular cough and cold symptoms, just have some freaking tea, honey, soup, etc... instead of downing meds packed with extra chemicals. And that is just a simple example for a minor issue.
 
Would be better for you to go to med school so you can call the shots. But it won't take long for you to understand that your hands are tied when it comes to practicing medicine the way you want. Sure, there are things you can do, but you can not deviate far away from the norms, otherwise, you will find yourself in deep water.
which is insane that in many cases doctors are essentially required to follow guidelines that can harm patients, backed by research that is funded by people with certain interests...
 
The same "scientifically backed" treatments that are profusely used in modern medicine are also scientifically backed to cause patients side effects and issues. I get what you are saying, especially with the idea that many patients just won't change their lifestyle and just need meds, but those meds can be harmful too.

Cancer treatments are cancer causing, plenty of drugs have negative side effects and can be addictive, physician caused deaths are far too many, etc....

I am not saying I want to just tell patients to use natural treatments and change their lifestyle and leave it at that. But at least when there is some evidence to try natural treatments for certain issues, I would rather have patients try those out, with really no side effects, versus telling them to go onto things that are potentially harmful.

Like heck for a regular cough and cold symptoms, just have some freaking tea, honey, soup, etc... instead of downing meds packed with extra chemicals. And that is just a simple example for a minor issue.
Abx are either indicated or they aren’t. If you give tea to a person who needs abx you are a bad person
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
The same "scientifically backed" treatments that are profusely used in modern medicine are also scientifically backed to cause patients side effects and issues. I get what you are saying, especially with the idea that many patients just won't change their lifestyle and just need meds, but those meds can be harmful too.

Cancer treatments are cancer causing, plenty of drugs have negative side effects and can be addictive, physician caused deaths are far too many, etc....

I am not saying I want to just tell patients to use natural treatments and change their lifestyle and leave it at that. But at least when there is some evidence to try natural treatments for certain issues, I would rather have patients try those out, with really no side effects, versus telling them to go onto things that are potentially harmful.

Like heck for a regular cough and cold symptoms, just have some freaking tea, honey, soup, etc... instead of downing meds packed with extra chemicals. And that is just a simple example for a minor issue.

Which is pretty much what I said. The right kind of evidence is the kind of evidence I need to see, and when it’s there we can feel comfortable using it. But at least when you are dealing with an FDA approved medication, you have significant amounts of information regarding both the positive and negative effects.... vs a disclaimer on the side of the Kratom package that says “these statements have not beenevaluated by the food and drug administration... good luck, YMMV!” Lol. So I don’t know what your point is about chemotherapy agents also having a downside... the whole regimen comes with a host of drawbacks that are thought tolerable compared to impending death from cancer that is more appropriate a risk than things like potential secondary cancers down the line.

Abx are either indicated or they aren’t. If you give tea to a person who needs abx you are a bad person

True words here.

If there are some helpful additions to the therapeutic mix that come from the highlands of whatever country the patient thinks their ancestors are from, then by all means, add that on to the established and approved regimen. But I’m not going to conduct my own off the books research study in my office by forgoing what we know works. That’s not fair to anyone.
 
All medications are bad - but not giving medications is worse. Thank you PaMac for the beautifully written post - I did just boil a ton down to "not getting sued" but really I didn't mean that to be the only reason why you'd prescribe someone something haha.

SCDP - It seems like traditional medical paths might not be right for you. If you're already feeling guilty about prescribing patients drugs before even going to PA/med school, it seems like you should re-evaluate your goals.

Have you looked into Naturopathy or Chiropractics? I know they're professions that get a lot of bad rep by the medical community... I can't say I'm not completely biased against them myself... But, if you're really passionate about it, you could make it work, and you can definitely help with certain medical conditions, even if its just reducing chronic pain from performing manipulations or prescribing herbal anti-inflammatory therapies.

Or, you could look into becoming a Registered Dietitian or Personal Trainer. Best medicine is healthy food and exercise!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Like heck for a regular cough and cold symptoms, just have some freaking tea, honey, soup, etc... instead of downing meds packed with extra chemicals. And that is just a simple example for a minor issue.

Side note - as a resident, a patient threatened to sue me because I didn't give her antibiotics. (She clearly had a virus, and nothing bacterial.) She actually called her lawyer in the exam room in front of me. When I suggested tea, honey, lemon juice, soup, rest, she almost lost her mind.

I understand what you're saying, but as others have said - in some cases, medications are necessary. In other cases, there are a lot of external pressures as to why people prescribe (or don't prescribe) medications. I agree, becoming a nutritionist or a personal trainer may be more in line with your personal philosophy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
which is insane that in many cases doctors are essentially required to follow guidelines that can harm patients, backed by research that is funded by people with certain interests...
ok... where is the evidence backing your statement? Treatments are based off of risk:benefit ratio. Can a statin, potentially, harm the liver? Sure. But what's more likely - serious harm to the liver or prevention of cardiovascular related illness?
Your argument is implying that we should solely focus on side effects of treatments and entirely ignore the benefits.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
ok... where is the evidence backing your statement? Treatments are based off of risk:benefit ratio. Can a statin, potentially, harm the liver? Sure. But what's more likely - serious harm to the liver or prevention of cardiovascular related illness?
Your argument is implying that we should solely focus on side effects of treatments and entirely ignore the benefits.
Same argument used against vaccinations lol
 
If you as a pa think one med and the doc thinks something else, you will listen to the doc. If youre not okay with that then you should look elsewhere
 
Top