how much income per year do you expect to earn as a new dentist?

[afaigel]

We have multiple group practices and employ a number of dentists. I would say that the top performing dentists earn upwards of $250,000 /yr. Lowest earning drs earn approx $150K.

Work schedule is approx 30 hours a week, over 5 days.

This is accurate for our offices, not quite sure about competitors.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[OceanDMD]

2007 Practice survey done by Levin Group and Dental Economics. Released in Dental Economics Nov. 2007 Issue:

General Practice
Average Salary Owner Doctor 204,500
Average Salary Associate 105,000
Average Salary Owner Doctor Large City 220,000
Average Salary Associate Large City 120,000
Average Salary Owner Doctor Small Town 174,000
Average Salary Associate Small Town 121,000

 

[blankguy]

2007 Practice survey done by Levin Group and Dental Economics. Released in Dental Economics Nov. 2007 Issue:

General Practice
Average Salary Owner Doctor 204,500
Average Salary Associate 105,000
Average Salary Owner Doctor Large City 220,000
Average Salary Associate Large City 120,000
Average Salary Owner Doctor Small Town 174,000
Average Salary Associate Small Town 121,000

Yeah but what are the associated costs for these practices??

 

[OceanDMD]

Yeah but what are the associated costs for these practices??

?????????????????????? Relevance????

 

[jigabodo]

An IDP newly grad is getting paid 500 bucks a day at the dental office that I shadowed.

 

[blankguy]

?????????????????????? Relevance????

Getting the whole picture of the job. Is that relevant? I think so.

 

[toofshucker]

Getting the whole picture of the job. Is that relevant? I think so.

It is actually not relevant due to the fact that the info reported the doctor's take home pay. So, those numbers have nothing to do with the cost of owning a practice, so your question is completely irrelevant.

 

[OceanDMD]

Yeah but what are the associated costs for these practices??

Please define "associated costs for these practices" and how it pertains to an average income in a general dental practice survey. I'd like to know what your thought process is, specifically, with respect to your question. Do you mean practice value? Overhead?.....I can't figure out what you are asking based on what I posted. Thanks.

 

[McDizzy]

Oh boy, I hope that with all those deductions you don't get to "learn" about the biggest oxymoron in taxes, the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT). If you end up "qualifying" for the AMT, you'll see a significant amount of those deductions going bye-bye And well that refund you might think you'll be getting may just go

Oh Yeah! I hare the AMT. My first 6 months in practice (surgeon, not dentist) I qualified and saw all of my deductions evaporate. I ended up paying alot more than the "regular" tax. The only deductions I get these days seem to be mortgage and charitable contributions!

 

[blankguy]

Please define "associated costs for these practices" and how it pertains to an average income in a general dental practice survey. I'd like to know what your thought process is, specifically, with respect to your question. Do you mean practice value? Overhead?.....I can't figure out what you are asking based on what I posted. Thanks.

OceonDMD,
well since this is the take home pay which excludes the traditional meaning of costs i.e. value, overhead, payroll, etc..... I think there is an intangible cost of being your own boss for those dentist that own their own practice. They practically have to be there making sure that everything is running smoothly supervising and checking on the financial aspect of the practice so that it is in the black not in the red. I think a lot of people in this board throw around salary figures naively because they are going from college straight to dental school without getting a taste of what the real world is like. The hassle of constantly having to check would be the "associated cost". Even if a dentist with his/her own practice were to hire an office manager he/she would still have to check up on them. He/she would have to be the HR unlike big corporations. Taking vacations or shutting down the practice for certain days he/she would be taking a financial hit. Who has to resolve workplace issues obviously the owner. This is without a doubt a huge responsibility. I think once people experience this they will now that they deserve every penny of salary as owner and rebut anybody who says they are overpaid.

For an associate the original question is definitely irrelevant.

 

[OceanDMD]

OceonDMD,
well since this is the take home pay which excludes the traditional meaning of costs i.e. value, overhead, payroll, etc..... I think there is an intangible cost of being your own boss for those dentist that own their own practice. They practically have to be there making sure that everything is running smoothly supervising and checking on the financial aspect of the practice so that it is in the black not in the red. I think a lot of people in this board throw around salary figures naively because they are going from college straight to dental school without getting a taste of what the real world is like. The hassle of constantly having to check would be the "associated cost". Even if a dentist with his/her own practice were to hire an office manager he/she would still have to check up on them. He/she would have to be the HR unlike big corporations. Taking vacations or shutting down the practice for certain days he/she would be taking a financial hit. Who has to resolve workplace issues obviously the owner. This is without a doubt a huge responsibility. I think once people experience this they will now that they deserve every penny of salary as owner and rebut anybody who says they are overpaid.

For an associate the original question is definitely irrelevant.

I reported a salary survey from a dental publication. I am a dentist and have worked in large cities and rural towns. From experience, these numbers are pretty accurate for an AVERAGE. The senior partner in our practice grosses over 300k(general dentist 3 1/2 days per week). The frustrations and responsibilities that go along with practice ownership is intuitive, and really has nothing to do with my salary post. I am just providing actual published information rather than "I know a buddy who's a dentist...."

 

[Cold Front]

2007 Practice survey done by Levin Group and Dental Economics. Released in Dental Economics Nov. 2007 Issue:

General Practice
Average Salary Owner Doctor 204,500
Average Salary Associate 105,000
Average Salary Owner Doctor Large City 220,000
Average Salary Associate Large City 120,000
Average Salary Owner Doctor Small Town 174,000
Average Salary Associate Small Town 121,000

These numbers come up on these boards so often, I think they should make them "sticky" under the F.A.Q.'s section.

 

[jigabodo]

These numbers come up on these boards so often, I think they should make them "sticky" under the F.A.Q.'s section.

I agree. Those are awesome numbers too!

 

[blankguy]

I reported a salary survey from a dental publication. I am a dentist and have worked in large cities and rural towns. From experience, these numbers are pretty accurate for an AVERAGE. The senior partner in our practice grosses over 300k(general dentist 3 1/2 days per week). The frustrations and responsibilities that go along with practice ownership is intuitive, and really has nothing to do with my salary post. I am just providing actual published information rather than "I know a buddy who's a dentist...."

Oh okay, maybe I was being a bit cynical. People just toss numbers around especially among fellow predents. I think once I get through dental school I'll have a better idea of the significance of the numbers. As of now without any real experience with dentistry I don't fully grasp the significance of that.

 

[blankguy]

These numbers come up on these boards so often, I think they should make them "sticky" under the F.A.Q.'s section.

Figuring the numbers out is such an inexact science I don't think I want to see this number stickied ad then realize that for whatever reason may be inaccurate or out of date.

 

[toofshucker]

Oh okay, maybe I was being a bit cynical. People just toss numbers around especially among fellow predents. I think once I get through dental school I'll have a better idea of the significance of the numbers. As of now without any real experience with dentistry I don't fully grasp the significance of that.

You are right when you say that some numbers are just "thrown around" without any real significance. What is so crazy about dentistry, is how you run you business will determine how much money you make. There are a lot of dentists out there that produce around 600k a year and make more than the ones that produce 1 million. That is what is so tricky about dentistry. You have to figure out what you actually "need" to do the best dentistry you can. And what one dentist "needs" can be very different from what another "needs" depending on the area, type of dentistry, type of patients, etc. So, as a dentist, it is very reasonable to expect to make 300k one day (usually 10-15 years out you really hit your stride), BUT if you run your business wrong, you could never get close to that, or (like the doc I work for in his mid 40's) you can take home over 1 mill a year as a general dentist.

I guess my point is, you won't know your reality until you graduate, and there will always be a wide range of realities.

 

[toofshucker]

Figuring the numbers out is such an inexact science I don't think I want to see this number stickied ad then realize that for whatever reason may be inaccurate or out of date.

That is why they won't be stickied...there is no reliable "average" in dentistry due to all the variables (location, hours worked, type of dentistry done, etc). About the only reliable thing you can say about a dentist's salary, is that compared to most other jobs, they do extremely well.

 

[CurryPower]

1.) What are average associate salaries right out of residency in SPECIALTIES - i.e.-endo, pediatrics, ortho, OMFS

2.) For current dentists: in the first year out of residency, do you tend to get a lot of offers enabling you to pick the right location and region to try to start off working for the most money?

 

[OceanDMD]

2.) For current dentists: in the first year out of residency, do you tend to get a lot of offers enabling you to pick the right location and region to try to start off working for the most money?

No. Finding a good associateship is VERY VERY difficult. Watch out and do your homework. Sometimes making less at the start in the right situation is the better choice.

 

[Squished Rat]

You are right when you say that some numbers are just "thrown around" without any real significance. What is so crazy about dentistry, is how you run you business will determine how much money you make. There are a lot of dentists out there that produce around 600k a year and make more than the ones that produce 1 million. That is what is so tricky about dentistry. You have to figure out what you actually "need" to do the best dentistry you can. And what one dentist "needs" can be very different from what another "needs" depending on the area, type of dentistry, type of patients, etc. So, as a dentist, it is very reasonable to expect to make 300k one day (usually 10-15 years out you really hit your stride), BUT if you run your business wrong, you could never get close to that, or (like the doc I work for in his mid 40's) you can take home over 1 mill a year as a general dentist.

I guess my point is, you won't know your reality until you graduate, and there will always be a wide range of realities.

You work for a general dentist that takes home over 1 mill? How much does he produce?

 

[blankguy]

You are right when you say that some numbers are just "thrown around" without any real significance. What is so crazy about dentistry, is how you run you business will determine how much money you make. There are a lot of dentists out there that produce around 600k a year and make more than the ones that produce 1 million. That is what is so tricky about dentistry. You have to figure out what you actually "need" to do the best dentistry you can. And what one dentist "needs" can be very different from what another "needs" depending on the area, type of dentistry, type of patients, etc. So, as a dentist, it is very reasonable to expect to make 300k one day (usually 10-15 years out you really hit your stride), BUT if you run your business wrong, you could never get close to that, or (like the doc I work for in his mid 40's) you can take home over 1 mill a year as a general dentist.

I guess my point is, you won't know your reality until you graduate, and there will always be a wide range of realities.

I've seen people on this board and on TV throw around what I consider "lottery winners". One of the best advice that I got is just focus on the job and money will come to you. The reality is a bit more complicated for that. All this numbers are there just to make sure that I am being properly compensated in relation to what I would be doing. In other words I am not being used as "cheap labor". I've seen some pretty lousy dentist and some really good ones in my searches for a personal dentist. At this point all I care especially since I'm just a predent is that I am going into a profession which isn't going to make me beg out in the street. The "needs" is probably looking at the demographics of the area. Poorer neighborhoods studies have shown people do not do a good job taking care of themselves. Wealthier neighborhoods people may opt for more elective procedures. This is the general gist that I got.

 

[blankguy]

No. Finding a good associateship is VERY VERY difficult. Watch out and do your homework. Sometimes making less at the start in the right situation is the better choice.

That is one of the best tips I've heard in a while at SDN. Difficult to follow thru because of the crushing debts that people are going to be in fresh out of dental school.

 

[CurryPower]

Guys, I realize you are hinting at General Dentists, but what are average associate salaries right out of residency in SPECIALTIES - i.e.-endo, pediatrics, ortho, OMFS? I mean specialists tend to be the minority so I was interested in how these people get paid coming out of residency?

 

[bigstix808]

i'm not hating on curry, but as many people have mentioned....if you go into such a difficult field, then you will never be happy if your only desire is money.

i don't hate...but curry, why the money? sure, you just WANNA know...but what does it matter. this whole thing goes back to how much money you wanna make. owning your own practice is a business. if a business wants to make money, then the owner busts his/her ass to make sure they do and does it wisely (sp?). trying to find exact numbers for a specialist or general dentist is arbitrary. you can be a general dentist and make 400k a year...and you could be a specialist and make 85k a year.

basically....if you want to make money, and your heart is into what you were doing, then money will not be an issue...it will just come.

i really hate it when people try to "ruin" the rep dentists have when they post threads about money....but i can't blame them. i can however give my 2 cents and say...please think about what you're getting in to. dental school is NOT easy, and you have to make it through that first, then actually get in to a specialty, and THEN find a place to get started, and THEN have the common sense to open your OWN practice to make the money...

just think about it....that's all.

 

[DrJeff]

You work for a general dentist that takes home over 1 mill? How much does he produce?

Probably that take home is a function of that doc's production and slew of hygienists and atleast 1(if not a couple of associates) combined production to help generate profit for that senior partner dentist!

Remember, if you're an associate working at an office and you produce 300k and take home 100k, I'll just about guarentee you that the overhead that you add to the office isn't anywhere close to 200k. And Voila, you've suddenyl added another 75k give or take to the senior partner's take home. Have a couple of folks working for you like that and it can start to add up(as long as the practice can keep everyone busy AND HAPPY)

 

[armorshell]

Guys, I realize you are hinting at General Dentists, but what are average associate salaries right out of residency in SPECIALTIES - i.e.-endo, pediatrics, ortho, OMFS? I mean specialists tend to be the minority so I was interested in how these people get paid coming out of residency?

Why are you so interested in how much they make right out of residency? Are you on some sort of schedule?

 

[peridot12]

Why are you so interested in how much they make right out of residency? Are you on some sort of schedule?

Don't you remember? Curry doesn't want to waste his/her scientific ability on dentistry. Curry, when you are going into plastics, what does it matter about specialties?

Not trying to hate...but you seem like you are looking into the Business of Dentistry rather than the Science or Care of Dentistry.

GL!

 

[TheWiredNerv]

DrJeff is the man. Go Pats!

 

[DrJeff]

DrJeff is the man. Go Pats!

I'm lining up the 6 or so layers of clothing I'll be wearing while sitting in Gillette Stadium this Sunday afternoon already! Supposed to be about 15 degrees with a brisk wind and a chance of morning snow in Foxboro on Sunday.
(and the Pats game will be the "warm" weather game of the 2 this Sunday)

 

[dontwakeme]

15 degrees is balmy compared to the estimated 2 degree temperature at the beginning of the Pack game.

 

[CurryPower]

I realize you are hinting at General Dentists, but what are average associate salaries right out of residency in SPECIALTIES - i.e.-endo, pediatrics, ortho, OMFS? I mean specialists tend to be the minority so I was interested in how these people get paid coming out of residency?

 

[pmantz]

I realize you are hinting at General Dentists, but what are average associate salaries right out of residency in SPECIALTIES - i.e.-endo, pediatrics, ortho, OMFS? I mean specialists tend to be the minority so I was interested in how these people get paid coming out of residency?

They get lots of money, so much they don't have to buy kraft dinner. They still buy craft dinner however because they like it.

 

[armorshell]

They get lots of money, so much they don't have to buy kraft dinner. They still buy craft dinner however because they like it.

With lots of fancy ketchups?


Dijon ketchup?

 

[Prospector]

Oh boy, I hope that with all those deductions you don't get to "learn" about the biggest oxymoron in taxes, the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT). If you end up "qualifying" for the AMT, you'll see a significant amount of those deductions going bye-bye And well that refund you might think you'll be getting may just go

DrJeff, Hopefully we wont get hit with this since they passed the patch to increase the standard deduction. I was looking at an additional 5,000 added on to my tax bill if the AMT were to apply. ouch.

 

[12YearOldKid]

Probably that take home is a function of that doc's production and slew of hygienists and atleast 1(if not a couple of associates) combined production to help generate profit for that senior partner dentist!

Remember, if you're an associate working at an office and you produce 300k and take home 100k, I'll just about guarentee you that the overhead that you add to the office isn't anywhere close to 200k. And Voila, you've suddenyl added another 75k give or take to the senior partner's take home. Have a couple of folks working for you like that and it can start to add up(as long as the practice can keep everyone busy AND HAPPY)

So true Dr. Jeff. This is something I think every associate struggles with. I am an associate at the owner's satellite. I want to make the owner more money, because that also means more for me, but...

I am the only doc so I have a little more access to financials and practice info than the typical associate. January has been the best month so far for this office. I am getting a good chunk of that, but I can't help but think "what if this were my office?" In this situation, my portion of that production would be nearly double as an owner.

I try not to think too hard about that - "the grass is greener" mentality just might have me trading a great situation for a mediocre situation. But you can't help but let it cross your mind now and then. Probably why most dentists don't remain associates very long.

 

[lisalisa2007]

If you're in Boston/LA/NY/SF or similar city, you need to at least double your rent/mortgage/propertytax payment for a decent place unless you're happy with your current student apartment. Coming out of BU you'll probably need to pay $2000-$4000month in loan payment.

Why BU??? Do you mean BU is way much more expensive than other schools?

 

[xxsuzuki1000xx]

So true Dr. Jeff. This is something I think every associate struggles with. I am an associate at the owner's satellite. I want to make the owner more money, because that also means more for me, but...

I am the only doc so I have a little more access to financials and practice info than the typical associate. January has been the best month so far for this office. I am getting a good chunk of that, but I can't help but think "what if this were my office?" In this situation, my portion of that production would be nearly double as an owner.

I try not to think too hard about that - "the grass is greener" mentality just might have me trading a great situation for a mediocre situation. But you can't help but let it cross your mind now and then. Probably why most dentists don't remain associates very long.

12YearOldKid,

Has your experience as an associate accelerated your training and clinical techniques (especially the first year out jitters), or do you feel like you would have been better off just going out and doing your own thing?

 

[12YearOldKid]

Clinically I think I would have progressed at the same rate on my own as in an associateship. There's definitely a learning curve, but you are kind of on your own in that regard whether there is another doc in the office or not. DentalTown is a godsend for a new dentist in that regard. You couldn't afford to pay for the CE that would teach you what is on DentalTown for free.

But there are a lot of other things I have learned by associating first. I have learned a lot about dealing with staff issues - we have had some fairly stressful times with staff and if I had just been going with my gut in my own office I would probably have screwed it up. I'm really glad the owner was there to pick up the pieces.

I have learned how to make it clear to my assistants what I expect of them. If I had bought right after school, I have a feeling I would have screwed that one up to.

Another thing I have learned is what kind of dentistry I like and how I want to practice. When I came out of school I thought I wanted a small, slow practice. 5 or 6 patients a day. No hygienist. Gross $300k, take home $130-150k. I actually looked at several practices like that and came very close to buying right out of school. I'm sooo glad I didn't now. Now that I have my feet under me, I realize I LIKE to be busy. The worst times at work are when I am sitting around surfing the internet. I NEED a busy practice to be happy at work. Lots of guys love the slow paced practice where they are sitting around shooting the bull with patients, but that just doesn't suit my personality. I would not have had the chance to see that if I hadn't associated first.

I'm not one of these guys who thinks it's crazy to buy right out of school, but there are real advantages to associating first.

 

[xxsuzuki1000xx]

Must be nice to also have someone that you can use like a mentor as well. I think before going into dental school I had this idea that I was going to graduate and open my own practice, but I think an associateship is the best way to go (unless you're a legacy dentist) now that I'm almost ready to graduate. It's going to be a while until I get out since I'm entering a residency next year, but I still think that it can't hurt to accept an associateship for at least one year.

 

[pmantz]

I am not putting in a plug for the military right now. My comment just ties into what the kid said.

There are plenty of individuals who purchase a practice right out of d-school as make ti just fine, but they isolate themselves right away without being able to draw from the expertise of seasoned dentists. As the Kid said, doing an associate first has its advantages. The same goes for doing the 3 to 4 years on active duty that is required of someone who accepts an HPSP scholarship. In either case, you get a few years to get your skills up to speed that would allow you to run an effective, efficient dental practice of your own. The few years in the military or an associate position allow you to learn from others and bounce ides off them. If you are in your own practice, unless you know someone in the area you are practicing in, you are less inclinded to do this.

True dat

 

[KyMDHopeful]

Perhaps you think this because you're practicing in kentucky (a known pauper state for dentistry) ?

That would seem like a very logical stance if you're unfamiliar with the region; however, dentistry is thriving in our city. (Bowling Green) We have a population of ~55k and have a somewhat decent location--1 hour north of Nashville and 1.5hrs and 2.5hrs south of Louisville and Lexington respectively. Eastern Ky is a completely different story and I can see that statement holding true for the area. Just for the record we have a ton of dentists in our city (my family included) and I know all are doing quite well for themselves considering a somewhat small population. Here are some homes of local dentists for an idea of the success in our area (per our property valuation site):



Just sold for $650,000 by a general dentist to another oddly enough.

Another General: ($850,000)

Ortho:

And just for the heck of it since I was on there, two PharmDs. There is a lot of potential in our area..they own two local pharmacies:

 

[dentstd]

That would seem like a very logical stance if you're unfamiliar with the region; however, dentistry is thriving in our city. (Bowling Green) We have a population of ~55k and have a somewhat decent location--1 hour north of Nashville and 1.5hrs and 2.5hrs south of Louisville and Lexington respectively. Eastern Ky is a completely different story and I can see that statement holding true for the area. Just for the record we have a ton of dentists in our city (my family included) and I know all are doing quite well for themselves considering a somewhat small population. Here are some homes of local dentists for an idea of the success in our area (per our property valuation site):



Just sold for $650,000 by a general dentist to another oddly enough.

Another General: ($850,000)

Ortho:

And just for the heck of it since I was on there, two PharmDs. There is a lot of potential in our area..they own two local pharmacies:

The majority of dentists aren't capable of retiring. This type of spending habit is why. The value of their homes are many times greater than it should be, given their income.

 

[KyMDHopeful]

The first home listed sold because the guy retired..at 54.

 

[armorshell]

The majority of dentists aren't capable of retiring. This type of spending habit is why. The value of their homes are many times greater than it should be, given their income.

Can you teach me how to divine someone's income by looking at a picture of their house?

 

[Lurchdubious]

Can you teach me how to divine someone's income by looking at a picture of their house?

Well, first you need one of these handy-dandy rods...

 

[capisce?]

Guys, I realize you are hinting at General Dentists, but what are average associate salaries right out of residency in SPECIALTIES - i.e.-endo, pediatrics, ortho, OMFS? I mean specialists tend to be the minority so I was interested in how these people get paid coming out of residency?

For pedo: my class in residency is a nice geographic range. In no particular order:

TX: base of ~175k 33% collections will make above and beyone
NC: base of 200k, 35% collections above and beyond, previous associates made around 3-350 first year out
MD: base of 200k, not sure what %
CA: hard to say since they are in multiple offices part time but around 32-35% prod/coll

I'd say overall the average for pedo is a base of 150-200k out of residency, b/w 30-35+% of production/collection, in busy offices it's not unheard of to make 300k+ 1st year out. I can tell you though that of all specialties, pedo would be the toughest to do for the $ because if you aren't good with kids you are going to go home hating your job. For those who love pedo like me most days I can't believe i'm even paid to do this job! There are some days though I feel like I earn every penny

 

[dr bojangles]

With lots of fancy ketchups?


Dijon ketchup?

catsup? thats my favourite

 

[Rube]

Public Health:
125 salary
25k pre tax loan repayment per year
20 vacation days
10 holidays
retirement match 4%
health insur.
malpractice
disability
working 4 10s a week

 

[Lurchdubious]

Public Health:
125 salary
25k pre tax loan repayment per year
20 vacation days
10 holidays
retirement match 4%
health insur.
malpractice
disability
working 4 10s a week

Indian Health falls under this umbrella too, no?

 

[Cold Front]

Well, these are the latest numbers from Levin Group/DE survey (see below). I actually met with Mr. Levin himself in one of his CE courses last week, and couldn't resist asking him how he came up with the current numbers. He said his company surveyed 3,000 offices back in July, and they weren't published until December in DE magazine. Before they published the data (which is like a bell-curve), they had to cut-off the top and bottom 5%, and then average the remaining 90%. They did this to eliminate the outliers, hoping the numbers to better represent what GP's were making at that time (summer of 2008). His company surveyed another 1,000 offices just recently, when the economy got hit really bad last fall. He said the new numbers will not be as high as those shown below. He told me to expect a big drop, I will post them when DE publishes them in April.