How much do publications help?

[ArrogantSurgeon]

If you have decent (but not fabulous) USMLE I and II scores (both in the 215-220 range) and the rest of you application and letters are on par, how much do publications help in the residency process?

Currently, I have 6 publications (4 of them as first author) in major sugery journals.

I've always heard that publications are important, but I've never know exactly how important they are when applying to academic programs. If anybody knows how much a publication record like mine can influence an application, please let me know. Thank you.

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[southerndoc]

Who knows man. Just apply to the programs you are interested in and a few fallback programs. The worst the programs can say is "no." If you only apply to competitive programs, you may find yourself scrambling.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

With 4 first authorships under your belt, you will get some serious burn from very good programs. That is a hell of an achievement.

 

[bob3]

four publications are not at all an achievement if they're clinical papers/case reports/or something lame like that. now, 4 basic research papers are highly impressive, but i doubt that papers in major surgery journals are of that caliber. your usmle scores are high enough for most programs.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Originally posted by bob3
four publications are not at all an achievement if they're clinical papers/case reports/or something lame like that.

"not at all an achievement"??? You're kidding right? For a med student to have 4 first authorships in major surgery journals is a big deal indeed. Basic science pubs are harder to do just because of the time required to generate data and carry out expmts. etc, but when it comes to applying for residency this guy will stand out in a big way.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Celiac Plexus, Skylizard, and bob3, thanks for the input guys.

All my publications are indeed clinical and not basic science. All had to do with clinical outcomes after different types of surgical procedures. The PI I work with told me he thinks I am actually the first med student ever to get first authorship in one of the surgical journals we published in...don't know if that means anything in the big scheme of things.

Yet bob3, I was surprised to hear you say that clinical papers aren't very highly look upon. The thing is the dept of surgery I worked with does mainly clinical research, and I knew that if I joined onto some of the basic science projects that were already in progress then I would probably not be first or second author on those papers and there was no knowing if they'd even be published by the time I applied for residency. And the thing is that I alone thought up and designed those 4 clinical papers that I got first authorship for, so I'm pretty sure I can explain anything about them if asked. I hope that counts for something even though the papers were clinical??

 

[surg]

1st authorship publications in a major journal are always viewed on positively. Period. End of Sentence. Doesn't matter if it is clinical or basic science. When it comes to research, the ideal situation that we want to see at an academic institution (based on your other thread I assume that's what you want) are:
1) Familiarity with the scientific method and the ability to generate a good question and formulate a study that will answer the question (which if you created the study design or the experimental protocols as you mentioned, are important things to have mentioned somewhere in your application, preferably by your research mentor!)
2) An understanding of what a career with research responsibilities might entail
3) Publications are a big bonus in most people's book because it demonstrates the above two and that you are convincing enough to get a reviewer to agree with you.

That being said, it is possible to write an unimpressive paper. It is also possible to be on an impressive paper and botch the discussion with your interviewer leaving the impression that you don't understand your own paper. Finally, yes, all other things being equal, basic science papers tend to have a little more currency than clinical papers, but I'd attribute that to so many clinical papers being.... well.... not very well conceived (For an idea, look at Dr. Clifford Ko's paper out of UCLA on how most Randomized Control Trials in surgery are severely underpowered)

Good luck.

 

[bob3]

first off, 6 publications in major surgical journals all designed by you is highly unlikely, arrogant surgeon. yes, you are arrogant. did you get a PhD because off all that work? i think if you really designed all of these, your research mentor(s) will vouch for that and THAT will make for a strong application, not the fact that kind surgeons allowed you to write up their crap and stuck your name on the front because, quite frankly, you did not PERFORM all of the experiments...you're not a surgeon yet, let alone an MD.

Are they all prospective trials or lousy case reports, chart reviews? Anyone can get 6 of these in a matter of a year.

 

[bob3]

P.S. I'm quite convinced "your PI" indeed knows that you are the first med student to ever publish in that journal....must be the first issue in publication, right? or is it that he keeps tabs on all authors who ever published in the journal for over 100's of years?

arrongant surgeon, you're postings just don't jive.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Whoa, whoa...hold on there I didn't mean to upset anybody. I'm sorry if I did, but I am just looking for advice since I'd really like to ultimately get into a top-tier academic program. My USMLE scores are not as great as some of the people who have matched into top 10 surgical programs from my med school (they all got in the 230s and above) and that is why I asked about doing the less competetive 2-year prelim route at a powerhouse program and then hopefully switching into a categorical spot at the same program or another high-caliber program at PGY3. That is why I also asked how much my publications would help me in the application process, because although those guys I knew who matched into big name programs had USMLE scores 15-30 points higher than me, only one of them had any publications.

And yes I do have a total of 6 pubs (1 scientific review, 4 prospective studies, and 1 retrospective review). And if you read my first post, I said I was first author on 4 of them, not all of them.

And bob3, you don't have to actually PERFORM the operations to be first author on a clinical paper. Performing surgery and actually researching the outcomes of the operations are very different. As long as you think up of a hypothesis to test, design an experimental method to test it, and analyze and write-up most of the article then you will get first (or at least second) authorship.

Again, didn't mean to offend anybody.

P.S. I picked the name ArrogantSurgeon because the surgeons I've worked with have told me I am too nice to be a surgeon.

 

[SurgResident]

6 publications in surgical journals is pretty good for a medical student. First author on 4 is outstanding. You shouldn't have any problems generating interest at any academic program with that background. If you're looking at the "top-tier" programs and if you're concerned about the USMLE scores, you should consider doing an elective at your desired program early in your fourth year.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

May I just say that I did not mean for this thread to turn out this way. It was one of my first posts on SDN and did not realize my question would rile people up. Thank you to those who have given me their input.

 

[eddieberetta]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon
May I just say that I did not mean for this thread to turn out this way. It was one of my first posts on SDN and did not realize my question would rile people up. Thank you to those who have given me their input.

Some people have been scarred for life in ways we will never know. For some reason, it makes them feel better to usurp message boards with useless little rants. I thought your post was totally reasonable.

I will say one thing: I think your step 1 scores are pretty good even when it comes to top tier general surgery programs (if you mean a subspecialty surgery, then it may be an issue). The research is icing, as another poster said.

Good luck in your application.

 

[vuillaume]

Back to the question at hand,
I think the answer to this question (as with virtually all others) is that it depends.

I don't think anyone can deny that several 1st author papers is far better than no papers at all. And it goes without saying that good papers in good journals help a lot more.

Key is knowing what you want. If you know that being an academic surgeon is your calling, you shouldn't give too much of a darn what others think (whether it is people in the forum here, or even residency directors). Vis-a-vis your other question on this forum, I'd say don't compromise and apply to categorical programs, ranging from top to middle tier (or as low as you feel comfortable applying to).

Trying to finagle a PGY-2 or -3 position at a "Top 10" academic program sounds too risky too me. At those programs, attrition appears to be a bit lower, and those spots often seem to fill with transfers from other top programs (e.g. their significant other moved, &c.).

Don't worry, your publication record more than anything suggests that you're genuinely interested in research. This should help you; but should you end up in a categorical program a bit below your expectations, you always have a chance to "rally" when you apply to fellowships.

Just be yourself, be confident, and be prepared to say to yourself "screw what other people say".

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

Hi ArrogantSurgeon-

I applied for general surgery this past season and I wasn't sure exactly what sort of program I wanted so I applied to >20 programs. I didn't think I was the best candidate (I did well on the boards 230/250 Step 1 and 2) but was not AOA, came from an unranked, so-so public school, and my only publication was during undergrad and was not related to surgery. I got interviews at all but 1 place and I applied to a variety of places from the big ones to universities to community programs. Funny thing is, as different as the programs were from one another, and though I am sure some had their flaws, in the end, I ranked every one I interviewed because I felt I could have been well-trained at any of them.

If you have your heart set on one of the ultra-competitive places, apply to all of the ones out there, as well as some others. If you DON"T want to scramble (and I wouldn't), rank your top choices the highest (even if you think they are a long shot) but still rank some others. The way I figure it is I'd rather be a surgeon, even if it meant being in a place that I wasn't absolutely in love with, rather than take the risk of having residency significantly delayed or to have opportunites to get a spot become more of a challenge.

Good luck.