How much did you like surgery as a student?

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bobjonesbob

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3rd year student trying to figure out if I should take the plunge for surgery. I've been planning for a surgical sub - AOA, >260 step score, done some research, etc. but unsure about it now that it's time to plan my 4th year schedule. Overall I've really disliked the 3rd year of medical school. I feel like I spend a lot of time in the hospital but don't learn much and don't make meaningful contributions to pt care - basically feels like a waste of time.

This includes my surgery rotations. When I've gotten to 1st assist, I really enjoyed it, but that was only a few times. I like the idea of doing surgery, but I'm bored watching during most cases. I would assume this is natural if you aren't participating beyond retracting, but I'm not really sure. The thought of continuing to be a bystander as a 4th year student, intern, and maybe even into PGY-2 sounds boring. Is this something most surgeons thought but just stuck it out for the end goal? Or is it a sign I should pursue something else?

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3rd year student trying to figure out if I should take the plunge for surgery. I've been planning for a surgical sub - AOA, >260 step score, done some research, etc. but unsure about it now that it's time to plan my 4th year schedule. Overall I've really disliked the 3rd year of medical school. I feel like I spend a lot of time in the hospital but don't learn much and don't make meaningful contributions to pt care - basically feels like a waste of time.

This includes my surgery rotations. When I've gotten to 1st assist, I really enjoyed it, but that was only a few times. I like the idea of doing surgery, but I'm bored watching during most cases. I would assume this is natural if you aren't participating beyond retracting, but I'm not really sure. The thought of continuing to be a bystander as a 4th year student, intern, and maybe even into PGY-2 sounds boring. Is this something most surgeons thought but just stuck it out for the end goal? Or is it a sign I should pursue something else?

Do you actually want to be a surgeon? Training takes forever, and you’ll make a ton of personal sacrifices.

It’s not for everybody. Even among surgeons, burnout rates are very high, this is multifactorial but choosing the wrong specialty doesn’t help.

Keep in mind, that if you haven’t really liked 3rd year of med school, maybe you shouldn’t do surgery. Ever consider radiology?
 
3rd year sucks. Being a resident is way better. There's still all the grunt work, but your notes and orders actually count. And then of course you get more OR responsibility.
 
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3rd year student trying to figure out if I should take the plunge for surgery. I've been planning for a surgical sub - AOA, >260 step score, done some research, etc. but unsure about it now that it's time to plan my 4th year schedule. Overall I've really disliked the 3rd year of medical school. I feel like I spend a lot of time in the hospital but don't learn much and don't make meaningful contributions to pt care - basically feels like a waste of time.

This includes my surgery rotations. When I've gotten to 1st assist, I really enjoyed it, but that was only a few times. I like the idea of doing surgery, but I'm bored watching during most cases. I would assume this is natural if you aren't participating beyond retracting, but I'm not really sure. The thought of continuing to be a bystander as a 4th year student, intern, and maybe even into PGY-2 sounds boring. Is this something most surgeons thought but just stuck it out for the end goal? Or is it a sign I should pursue something else?

TBH you kind of sound like someone who’s doing surgery because you know you’re competitive for it and who likes “the idea” of being a surgeon.

Neither of which are super great reasons to be a surgeon.
 
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I remember feeling how you felt as a MS-3. I choose a specific rural surgical rotation site as a MS-3 with no surgical residents so I would get to first assist every case with the attending. There is nothing more frustrating than being an observer for someone who likes working with their hands. Being a MS-3 on the surgery rotation is not representative of what being a resident or attending surgeon will be like, try to watch your attending's and see what their life is like and if you would like being them in the future. As someone in a surgical sub this the timeline to becoming a surgeon.
  • MS-3's are more work than they give back to the team 99% of the time. So if you feel like you are a burden as a third year that just means you have an accurate perception of your situation. That's okay, we all know and expect third years to be extra work, we are just happy if they have a good attitude and are on time. If we teach them something and they retain it, that's a bonus. We were all in their shoes at some time point. Some of us remember it better than others or just have more bandwidth to deal constructively with medical students. Other residents/attendings don't remember what it's like to be a MS-3 or are overwhelmed with their workload, as the student you should avoid these people as much as humanly possible - they don't teach and they usually just hurt you one way or another.
  • Sub-i's are when about 80% of people get it. We love having sub-i's on our team because they contribute in a meaningful way. They have the bandage bag ready for rounds without asking, they help the intern with the list. They set up and participate in doing ER procedures. They are an extra set of hands in the OR for retracting and splinting. They start to anticipate movements and shift their hands for retracting during surgery and splinting. They go out with us residents for dinners and social events. They study the material in their free time and ask intelligent questions that aren't googleable. We know most of them will be our future colleagues which changes the dynamic.
  • Intern year is your buy in year, you are still a lot of work for the rest of the team members. You mess things up. You need to learn a thousand little things to become good and efficient at your job. You do all the jobs none of the seniors want to deal with: nurse pages, admit orders, discharges, paperwork, med recons, follow up appointments, social work meetings, UR phone calls, and family discussions. You are spending more time in the hospital than you thought was humanly possible. Every day you have the best parking spot in the building because no one else except the other surgical interns are there. By midway through the year you start getting so efficient at the intern work that the work that use to take you til 8pm you are now finishing by 2pm. Then you start shadowing the R2 seeing consults and really getting ready to transition from intern to surgical resident.
  • R2 year you are seeing consults. The attendings start to learn your name and recognize you by face. You start to develop a reputation as someone is through, honest and hardworking, or the opposite. You start spending a little time in the OR when you aren't seeing consults. Learning how to safely position patients. How to help move the OR day along by having correct orders in. Making sure correct trays and instruments are there. You start seeing why some of the cases are operative vs non-operative in person which helps you better talk with patient's when you consent them for surgery. This is still a buy in year. You are putting massive amounts of work and time in doing jobs nobody else wants to do: ie in the ER seeing consults, dealing with pages from other services and consenting patients for surgery. You find out how exactly hard 30-hours in a row in the hospital is when you see the ER residents and nurses leaving from their second shift while you've been in the hospital the whole time. You Uber home from work because you are too tired to drive.
  • R3 year, you are often the most junior member of the surgical team operating. This means your chief and attendings are usually walking you through how to do the simple cases and you retract for them for complex cases. You may get bumped out of the more interesting cases by fellows (this is why you want a program with as few fellows as possible, surgery is still a hierarchy), and senior residents. This year you learn that 10 hour cases in lead will leave you drenched in sweat, dehydrated and test your bladder strength. You will see floor errors, consult errors and ER errors negatively affect your patient's care and you will start to understand the importance of the things you learned in your prior years. You will start to develop surgical skills you are proud of once you do enough cases. You will start teaching juniors on a regular basis once you feel comfortable with certain procedures. This year you really start to gain the technical skills of a surgeon. However, the responsibility for patient care on the rotation still falls to the chiefs and attendings so this is a nice year to learn technical skills without being under monumental amounts of stress that staffing intern questions, consult questions, and operating room staff questions brings.
I'm in my R3 year, so I can't speak to future years yet, but as you can see, each year in the training of a surgeon brings new challenges, experiences, joys, and hardships. Hopefully this post will help you realize what a small percentage of surgery you experience as an MS-3, and how you shouldn't let a bad MS-3 rotation discourage you from being a surgeon.
 
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I remember feeling how you felt as a MS-3. I choose a specific rural surgical rotation site as a MS-3 with no surgical residents so I would get to first assist every case with the attending. There is nothing more frustrating than being an observer for someone who likes working with their hands. Being a MS-3 on the surgery rotation is not representative of what being a resident or attending surgeon will be like, try to watch your attending's and see what their life is like and if you would like being them in the future. As someone in a surgical sub this the timeline to becoming a surgeon.
  • MS-3's are more work than they give back to the team 99% of the time. So if you feel like you are a burden as a third year that just means you have an accurate perception of your situation. That's okay, we all know and expect third years to be extra work, we are just happy if they have a good attitude and are on time. If we teach them something and they retain it, that's a bonus. We were all in their shoes at some time point. Some of us remember it better than others or just have more bandwidth to deal constructively with medical students. Other residents/attendings don't remember what it's like to be a MS-3 or are overwhelmed with their workload, as the student you should avoid these people as much as humanly possible - they don't teach and they usually just hurt you one way or another.
  • Sub-i's are when about 80% of people get it. We love having sub-i's on our team because they contribute in a meaningful way. They have the bandage bag ready for rounds without asking, they help the intern with the list. They set up and participate in doing ER procedures. They are an extra set of hands in the OR for retracting and splinting. They start to anticipate movements and shift their hands for retracting during surgery and splinting. They go out with us residents for dinners and social events. They study the material in their free time and ask intelligent questions that aren't googleable. We know most of them will be our future colleagues which changes the dynamic.
  • Intern year is your buy in year, you are still a lot of work for the rest of the team members. You mess things up. You need to learn a thousand little things to become good and efficient at your job. You do all the jobs none of the seniors want to deal with: nurse pages, admit orders, discharges, paperwork, med recons, follow up appointments, social work meetings, UR phone calls, and family discussions. You are spending more time in the hospital than you thought was humanly possible. Every day you have the best parking spot in the building because no one else except the other surgical interns are there. By midway through the year you start getting so efficient at the intern work that the work that use to take you til 8pm you are now finishing by 2pm. Then you start shadowing the R2 seeing consults and really getting ready to transition from intern to surgical resident.
  • R2 year you are seeing consults. The attendings start to learn your name and recognize you by face. You start to develop a reputation as someone is through, honest and hardworking, or the opposite. You start spending a little time in the OR when you aren't seeing consults. Learning how to safely position patients. How to help move the OR day along by having correct orders in. Making sure correct trays and instruments are there. You start seeing why some of the cases are operative vs non-operative in person which helps you better talk with patient's when you consent them for surgery. This is still a buy in year. You are putting massive amounts of work and time in doing jobs nobody else wants to do: ie in the ER seeing consults, dealing with pages from other services and consenting patients for surgery. You find out how exactly hard 30-hours in a row in the hospital is when you see the ER residents and nurses leaving from their second shift while you've been in the hospital the whole time. You Uber home from work because you are too tired to drive.
  • R3 year, you are often the most junior member of the surgical team operating. This means your chief and attendings are usually walking you through how to do the simple cases and you retract for them for complex cases. You may get bumped out of the more interesting cases by fellows (this is why you want a program with as few fellows as possible, surgery is still a hierarchy), and senior residents. This year you learn that 10 hour cases in lead will leave you drenched in sweat, dehydrated and test your bladder strength. You will see floor errors, consult errors and ER errors negatively affect your patient's care and you will start to understand the importance of the things you learned in your prior years. You will start to develop surgical skills you are proud of once you do enough cases. You will start teaching juniors on a regular basis once you feel comfortable with certain procedures. This year you really start to gain the technical skills of a surgeon. However, the responsibility for patient care on the rotation still falls to the chiefs and attendings so this is a nice year to learn technical skills without being under monumental amounts of stress that staffing intern questions, consult questions, and operating room staff questions brings.
I'm in my R3 year, so I can't speak to future years yet, but as you can see, each year in the training of a surgeon brings new challenges, experiences, joys, and hardships. Hopefully this post will help you realize what a small percentage of surgery you experience as an MS-3, and how you shouldn't let a bad MS-3 rotation discourage you from being a surgeon.

Thanks for taking the time to write this.
 
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Do you actually want to be a surgeon? Training takes forever, and you’ll make a ton of personal sacrifices.

It’s not for everybody. Even among surgeons, burnout rates are very high, this is multifactorial but choosing the wrong specialty doesn’t help.

Keep in mind, that if you haven’t really liked 3rd year of med school, maybe you shouldn’t do surgery. Ever consider radiology?
Yeah, that's what I'm asking myself. I came to medical school to be a surgeon but 3rd year has me questioning that plan.

There's a lot of rhetoric about surgery. "I'd leave medicine if I couldn't be a surgeon." "Don't do surgery if you can imagine yourself doing anything else." "As soon as I walked in the OR during 3rd year I knew surgery was for me." - these are all quotes from surgery residents I've interacted with. I get that's hard and that it's not for everyone. But, that type of attitude strikes me as rationalization. Residents are miserable in the middle of their training so it's easiest to convince themselves that surgery was their only option. If every day they woke up thinking they should have done gas or rads they couldn't live with themselves so they make up a story to make it more bearable.

I actually have been thinking about rads recently. Unfortunately I can't squeeze in a rotation now so might try to get down to the reading room to shadow.

Did you truly enjoy surgery as a student?
 
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TBH you kind of sound like someone who’s doing surgery because you know you’re competitive for it and who likes “the idea” of being a surgeon.

Neither of which are super great reasons to be a surgeon.
You might be right which is what I'm trying to avoid. Don't want to be a victim of the sunk cost fallacy. Not sure how you interpreted what I meant by "the idea" but I was thinking more along the lines of mastering the craft, acquiring the technical skill, being an expert in a subject - obviously these are only things I can imagine as a student.

How did you know ortho was for you? Did you really love watching people put in nails?
 
3rd year sucks. Being a resident is way better. There's still all the grunt work, but your notes and orders actually count. And then of course you get more OR responsibility.
That's encouraging. Thanks for the input. I think knowing I was doing something useful would make it much more enjoyable.

How did you decide ortho was for you?
 
I remember feeling how you felt as a MS-3. I choose a specific rural surgical rotation site as a MS-3 with no surgical residents so I would get to first assist every case with the attending. There is nothing more frustrating than being an observer for someone who likes working with their hands. Being a MS-3 on the surgery rotation is not representative of what being a resident or attending surgeon will be like, try to watch your attending's and see what their life is like and if you would like being them in the future. As someone in a surgical sub this the timeline to becoming a surgeon.
  • MS-3's are more work than they give back to the team 99% of the time. So if you feel like you are a burden as a third year that just means you have an accurate perception of your situation. That's okay, we all know and expect third years to be extra work, we are just happy if they have a good attitude and are on time. If we teach them something and they retain it, that's a bonus. We were all in their shoes at some time point. Some of us remember it better than others or just have more bandwidth to deal constructively with medical students. Other residents/attendings don't remember what it's like to be a MS-3 or are overwhelmed with their workload, as the student you should avoid these people as much as humanly possible - they don't teach and they usually just hurt you one way or another.
  • Sub-i's are when about 80% of people get it. We love having sub-i's on our team because they contribute in a meaningful way. They have the bandage bag ready for rounds without asking, they help the intern with the list. They set up and participate in doing ER procedures. They are an extra set of hands in the OR for retracting and splinting. They start to anticipate movements and shift their hands for retracting during surgery and splinting. They go out with us residents for dinners and social events. They study the material in their free time and ask intelligent questions that aren't googleable. We know most of them will be our future colleagues which changes the dynamic.
  • Intern year is your buy in year, you are still a lot of work for the rest of the team members. You mess things up. You need to learn a thousand little things to become good and efficient at your job. You do all the jobs none of the seniors want to deal with: nurse pages, admit orders, discharges, paperwork, med recons, follow up appointments, social work meetings, UR phone calls, and family discussions. You are spending more time in the hospital than you thought was humanly possible. Every day you have the best parking spot in the building because no one else except the other surgical interns are there. By midway through the year you start getting so efficient at the intern work that the work that use to take you til 8pm you are now finishing by 2pm. Then you start shadowing the R2 seeing consults and really getting ready to transition from intern to surgical resident.
  • R2 year you are seeing consults. The attendings start to learn your name and recognize you by face. You start to develop a reputation as someone is through, honest and hardworking, or the opposite. You start spending a little time in the OR when you aren't seeing consults. Learning how to safely position patients. How to help move the OR day along by having correct orders in. Making sure correct trays and instruments are there. You start seeing why some of the cases are operative vs non-operative in person which helps you better talk with patient's when you consent them for surgery. This is still a buy in year. You are putting massive amounts of work and time in doing jobs nobody else wants to do: ie in the ER seeing consults, dealing with pages from other services and consenting patients for surgery. You find out how exactly hard 30-hours in a row in the hospital is when you see the ER residents and nurses leaving from their second shift while you've been in the hospital the whole time. You Uber home from work because you are too tired to drive.
  • R3 year, you are often the most junior member of the surgical team operating. This means your chief and attendings are usually walking you through how to do the simple cases and you retract for them for complex cases. You may get bumped out of the more interesting cases by fellows (this is why you want a program with as few fellows as possible, surgery is still a hierarchy), and senior residents. This year you learn that 10 hour cases in lead will leave you drenched in sweat, dehydrated and test your bladder strength. You will see floor errors, consult errors and ER errors negatively affect your patient's care and you will start to understand the importance of the things you learned in your prior years. You will start to develop surgical skills you are proud of once you do enough cases. You will start teaching juniors on a regular basis once you feel comfortable with certain procedures. This year you really start to gain the technical skills of a surgeon. However, the responsibility for patient care on the rotation still falls to the chiefs and attendings so this is a nice year to learn technical skills without being under monumental amounts of stress that staffing intern questions, consult questions, and operating room staff questions brings.
I'm in my R3 year, so I can't speak to future years yet, but as you can see, each year in the training of a surgeon brings new challenges, experiences, joys, and hardships. Hopefully this post will help you realize what a small percentage of surgery you experience as an MS-3, and how you shouldn't let a bad MS-3 rotation discourage you from being a surgeon.
Thanks for this. This seems reflective of what I've seen on my rotations but it's helpful to see it laid out like this.
 
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How did you know ortho was for you? Did you really love watching people put in nails?

Dude. I will NEVER forget the first time I watched a TKA. Amazing. That’s how I felt about most ortho cases tbh save the spine cases and acetabulum orifs that would take all day. I lived every minute of my ortho rotation as a third year med student. I felt like I was home.
 
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Thanks for this. This seems reflective of what I've seen on my rotations but it's helpful to see it laid out like this.

YMMV based on program. I was in the OR pretty frequently as a second year (and 1-2 times a week as an intern) as surgeon junior - that is, working with an attending and not retracting. I wasn’t doing huge cases, but I didn’t have to retract in anything other than a case I chose to double scrub out of personal interest. We don’t have enough people that we can have a second year consult resident, because our PGY2s are often operating. Our interns learn to see consults from day 1, with less direct supervision as the year progresses.

Yes, there is a lot of floor work to be done in the early years and it’s frustrating. But your classmates who tell you “if you’d be happy doing something else, do that” are probably right - another year or two of gradually increasing participation were well worth it for me in exchange for a career in surgery.

As to your experiences as a student, your participation will increase as you demonstrate competence. I love teaching students to suture in the OR, to do bedside procedures, to make the incision, etc - but in order to earn the time investment, that student first needs to demonstrate that they’re engaged and learning. We have students on their cell phones or chatting during signout and on rounds, and those students aren’t getting any extra privileges in the OR. It’s the ones who come a little early to see and present a patient, who ask to come with me so they can see how to place an NG or remove a JP, who I take the time to involve in the OR. Try a busy service (when I did trauma as a 3rd and 4th year there were sometimes enough operative cases at once that it would be just me and a fellow), or scrub more with the upper year residents. As a 4, I’ve closed enough port sites that I’m more than happy to let a student do it. As a 1 or 2, I was less confident teaching someone else.
 
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That's encouraging. Thanks for the input. I think knowing I was doing something useful would make it much more enjoyable.

How did you decide ortho was for you?
Nothing too far from the usual: knew I wanted to fix rather than manage, and then the patient population, tools, cases, and people in ortho set it apart from the other surgical fields.
 
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Nothing too far from the usual: knew I wanted to fix rather than manage, and then the patient population, tools, cases, and people in ortho set it apart from the other surgical fields.

Admit it. You did it because you likes Bones. Long bones, short bones. Bones, bones, bones. And you also like the heart because it pumps the kefzol to the bones.
 
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To the OP...
I would suggest you go in on a random weekend and see if you can scrub a case with a surgery attending that does not have a resident. It sucks watching. I didn’t enjoy it very much. My most enjoyable time as a student was when I was on cardiothoracic and would close the saphenous vein graft wound, back when they used to be harvested open.
I see what you’re talking about in terms of Stockholm syndrome, but the truth is, there are plenty of surgical residents who decided is not for them and then moved on into a medical field. I had several classmates from intern year who did that. There is always a risk. I think if on your surgery rotation you thought “these are my people,” it should be your benchmark.
 
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To the OP...
I think if on your surgery rotation you thought “these are my people,” it should be your benchmark.

Literally was scrolling to the end to post exactly this. Passively watching a six hour whipple when for most of the case you are staring at the back of the resident’s neck is not fun. Neither is waking up at 4am for punishingly early rounds. But I just had the realization during my rotation that the surgery folks were “my people” and that I really couldn’t imagine fitting in as well with any other group in the hospital.
 
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I messaged my grandma after my surgery rotation: "I couldn't be happier. I feel like I truly belong, have a lifetime of room to evolve, and the support to do so from like-minded colleagues. It's pretty exciting."

[btw, I'm NOT bubbly at baseline. the above is likely the most romantic thing I've ever written.]

Will be a surgery intern at that same program this summer. :D
 
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Unfortunately (or fortunately), I really didn't know there was anything else other than surgery. So it made my decision easier in the sense that all I had to figure out was which surgery specialty was I going to go into. I had friends who truly had no idea what they wanted to do and I felt bad for them because I guess the decision can be overwhelming if you're being pulled towards multiple things. My Neanderthal brain is so simple that it made a lot of subsequent decisions much easier. If you know surgery is for you and you won't be happy doing anything else, don't fight it. Just come to the dark side. Cheers.
 
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What if you love a particular sub-spec of surgery but don’t feel like you ‘fit’ there socially, in terms of being very different from the group? Do you think your passion for the work/cases/disease processes would make the non-fitting-in bearable, or would the feeling of not ‘fitting’ dominate over time?
 
I loved my trauma rotation but hated my general surgery rotation. Trauma had the cool attendings and cool procedures like getting to do internal cardiac massage. There was monotony like checking serial belly exams through the night but I felt like I was a valued part of the team. General surgery had too many lap choles in the middle of the night because no other or time was available. Too much consenting people for surgery and seeing them sit all day then getting sent home because add one bumped their elective cases. The attendings were not mean but it didn't feel the same as the team approach to trauma. I think the residents were grumpier for some of the same reasons. That plus really loving my ortho rotations is what sold me on ortho instead but I did a surgical ICU rotation later that helped me view general surgery as a good backup. Helped me to move on after failing to get into ortho and fully dive into general surgery. As it turns out most of what I hated doesn't apply to my practice now.
 
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If you like the concepts in surgery, and you like using your hands, I don't think it's an absolute contraindication if you get bored watching cases. I get bored watching cases. If I have to watch my partner do a little it of sinus surgery, it's like fingers on a chalkboard, and I really enjoy doing sinus surgery. Same thing with ears. When I was a med student, I rotated with a neuro-otologist. Watching ear surgery is the most boring thing in the world. Doing ear surgery is pretty fun. But I liked the concepts, even as a med student, and I liked the little stuff that they did let me do. I mean, some people like watching other people play video games. There's a whole youtube empire built on it. I find that to be super asinine. But, you know, I have been known to play a game on occasion.

Personalities are negotiable as well. To be honest, I tend to be a little rough around the edges compared to a lot of my ENT colleagues. I get along with them just fine. I probably fit in better on my general surgery rotations, but I didn't want to spend my life elbow deep in someone's rectum, or doing lap choles at 2am, and I didn't want the extra two years it would have bought me in the Army. Happy I went the way that I did, but I think you can make things work from a personality standpoint. You just need to make sure that you try to match into a residency program where you get along with your peers. Because if you don't get along with them, it's gonna be hell. You don't have live in a commune with them, but you'll be happier if you get along. Once you're out, same thing. Just find people you can get along with. Ultimately, this ends up being more of a YOU thing than it is a THEM thing. If you're the kind of person who just can't compromise and get along with people who aren't just like you, you're gonna have a rough time. If you can manage to get along with people who are different from you, you're gonna be ok. You're apprenticing for a career, not joining the third reich.
 
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It's truly astounding that you can't do any operating until you are three years in. So basically it's a three year operating residency.
 
It's truly astounding that you can't do any operating until you are three years in. So basically it's a three year operating residency.

Not sure if this is your personal experience or old school here-say. But this is outdated information for most/all programs in the modern era. I did my first skin-to-skin lap chole as an intern, first several actually, and dozens of other procedures. Since then, there is actually an ACGME requirement of 250 cases by PGY3.
 
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It's truly astounding that you can't do any operating until you are three years in. So basically it's a three year operating residency.

My interns are in the OR a few times per week. I’m looking at the schedule tomorrow and an intern is doing a lap chole. A different intern is doing a mastectomy and some lumps & bumps. It all depends on what cases are scheduled and which residents are available.
 
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That's good to know. I was just referring to this post where (s)/he describes doing (exclusively?) non-OR stuff in R1 and R2.

  • R3 year, you are often the most junior member of the surgical team operating. This means your chief and attendings are usually walking you through how to do the simple cases and you retract for them for complex cases. You may get bumped out of the more interesting cases by fellows (this is why you want a program with as few fellows as possible, surgery is still a hierarchy), and senior residents. This year you learn that 10 hour cases in lead will leave you drenched in sweat, dehydrated and test your bladder strength. You will see floor errors, consult errors and ER errors negatively affect your patient's care and you will start to understand the importance of the things you learned in your prior years. You will start to develop surgical skills you are proud of once you do enough cases. You will start teaching juniors on a regular basis once you feel comfortable with certain procedures. This year you really start to gain the technical skills of a surgeon. However, the responsibility for patient care on the rotation still falls to the chiefs and attendings so this is a nice year to learn technical skills without being under monumental amounts of stress that staffing intern questions, consult questions, and operating room staff questions brings.
 
That's good to know. I was just referring to this post where (s)/he describes doing (exclusively?) non-OR stuff in R1 and R2.

Ah ok. My take away from that person’s post was that PGY1&2 are the highest yield years for learning patient management. While many specialties have the idea that surgeons are just cutters, that couldn’t be more false. Technical skills begin at PGY1 certainly but you have to learn to care for the patients in the perioperative setting too. I am guessing if asked directly, @akwho would be able to reflect on the immense learning curve of PGY1&2 both in and out of the OR.

Basically no one shows up to PGY1 having innate technical ability. Getting into the OR early and polishing the basics like suturing/cutting/bovie/retracting is laying the groundwork.
 
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Not sure if this is your personal experience or old school here-say. But this is outdated information for most/all programs in the modern era. I did my first skin-to-skin lap chole as an intern, first several actually, and dozens of other procedures. Since then, there is actually an ACGME requirement of 250 cases by PGY3.
There are places that are like that. I rotated at one for transplant as a third year and the second year on with me had to have the fellow supervise central lines (I was signed off on those not long into first year) and other stuff. Neither of us saw the or except I got to go on one harvest where all I did was hold a retractor briefly and close half the fascia after the attending showed me how he likes it (for the dead patient). I would kill myself if I trained at a place like that for long (sucked enough for just one month though the limo and private jet ride almost redeemed it). Meanwhile I did my first surgery day 2 or 3 of intern year (day one was a weekend but I did get to help with a ed thoracotomy).
 
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There are places that are like that. I rotated at one for transplant as a third year and the second year on with me had to have the fellow supervise central lines (I was signed off on those not long into first year) and other stuff. Neither of us saw the or except I got to go on one harvest where all I did was hold a retractor briefly and close half the fascia after the attending showed me how he likes it (for the dead patient). I would kill myself if I trained at a place like that for long (sucked enough for just one month though the limo and private jet ride almost redeemed it). Meanwhile I did my first surgery day 2 or 3 of intern year (day one was a weekend but I did get to help with a ed thoracotomy).

I think those places have to be rotation dependent these days. Not sure how they would fulfill the ACGME requirements for 250 cases by PGY3 otherwise. While I was fortunate to train at a very resident-centric place for GS, I admit that my own fellowship service sucks for junior residents. I have zero power to change it unfortunately. But it’s also not the norm for the institution. They seem to get into the OR pretty frequently on other rotations.

The line thing is also very institution dependent. Where I trained we had to be signed off on both chest tubes and CVL to carry the code pager. Since the code pager was a PITA hot potato that went to the lowest ranked person around, everyone made sure the interns were signed off within the first 4 months or so. We would send out line race pages when there was a CVL needed on an ICU patient and whatever intern responded first got to do it. We were supposed to do 10 supervised lines and 5 supervised chest tubes to be signed off. I still remember putting in a trauma line during a Level I one evening on call. Afterwards the CC fellow asked me of that was my 10th line. I replied “no 7th.” He said that if I could put that line in in the middle of that chaos, I could carry the code pager. At which point the senior who had it (because none of the interns on that night were signed off yet) gleefully tossed it to me and basically ran away out of the ED cackling.but the culture was also that it was a source of pride to get a line in that the medicine folks couldn’t. We bitched about it sure. But it was instilled in us that we never said no.

Where I am now, for whatever reason, they rely so heavily on PICCs and interventional radiology that it seems like they don’t get signed off until PGY2. The culture is just different. There would be a certain amount of shaming at my GS program if it got to November intern year and you weren’t signed off, because the opportunities were so numerous that you had to be actively trying NOT to get signed off at that point. It was just seen as part of our responsibility. Here people act like they are put upon to put them in. But there’s no surgery resident carrying a code pager either as far as I can tell. Different cultures.
 
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It's truly astounding that you can't do any operating until you are three years in. So basically it's a three year operating residency.

As was mentioned above the ACGME requires 250 cases by the end of second year. I had that many cases by the end of intern year. I obviously only have experience at one program but there definitely seems to be a trend of pushing for “early operative experience.”
 
I think those places have to be rotation dependent these days. Not sure how they would fulfill the ACGME requirements for 250 cases by PGY3 otherwise. While I was fortunate to train at a very resident-centric place for GS, I admit that my own fellowship service sucks for junior residents. I have zero power to change it unfortunately. But it’s also not the norm for the institution. They seem to get into the OR pretty frequently on other rotations.

The line thing is also very institution dependent. Where I trained we had to be signed off on both chest tubes and CVL to carry the code pager. Since the code pager was a PITA hot potato that went to the lowest ranked person around, everyone made sure the interns were signed off within the first 4 months or so. We would send out line race pages when there was a CVL needed on an ICU patient and whatever intern responded first got to do it. We were supposed to do 10 supervised lines and 5 supervised chest tubes to be signed off. I still remember putting in a trauma line during a Level I one evening on call. Afterwards the CC fellow asked me of that was my 10th line. I replied “no 7th.” He said that if I could put that line in in the middle of that chaos, I could carry the code pager. At which point the senior who had it (because none of the interns on that night were signed off yet) gleefully tossed it to me and basically ran away out of the ED cackling.but the culture was also that it was a source of pride to get a line in that the medicine folks couldn’t. We bitched about it sure. But it was instilled in us that we never said no.

Where I am now, for whatever reason, they rely so heavily on PICCs and interventional radiology that it seems like they don’t get signed off until PGY2. The culture is just different. There would be a certain amount of shaming at my GS program if it got to November intern year and you weren’t signed off, because the opportunities were so numerous that you had to be actively trying NOT to get signed off at that point. It was just seen as part of our responsibility. Here people act like they are put upon to put them in. But there’s no surgery resident carrying a code pager either as far as I can tell. Different cultures.
I think it was a weird culture thing for sure. We had to run absolutely everything by the fellow. Like even electrolyte replacement. It was incredibly painful. It was a new rotation and after they changed it to second year (I advised it be early second year) which it would still suck but maybe less.
 
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Ah ok. My take away from that person’s post was that PGY1&2 are the highest yield years for learning patient management. While many specialties have the idea that surgeons are just cutters, that couldn’t be more false. Technical skills begin at PGY1 certainly but you have to learn to care for the patients in the perioperative setting too. I am guessing if asked directly, @akwho would be able to reflect on the immense learning curve of PGY1&2 both in and out of the OR.

Basically no one shows up to PGY1 having innate technical ability. Getting into the OR early and polishing the basics like suturing/cutting/bovie/retracting is laying the groundwork.


My program is hours heavy, high volume, blue collar county program, with a proud history of resident operating independence. I would consider it the most operative heavy of the 16 programs I interviewed at for orthopaedics. My cases intern year included many skin grafts, several nails, innumerable amputations, tumor excisions, closing lots of wounds and a few ORIF cases. That being said no one is going to hand you the scalpel as an intern just because you walk into the room. Additionally you are just trying to get your bearings when you show up as an intern and a senior teaches you some technical pearls or walks you through the case. It's not the same as being the primary surgeon, pre-op planning, positioning, ensuring all trays and implants are available, knowing the approach, reduction, closure, postop plan - those are things you start putting together your third year.

I still have a long way to go, but now I recognize any operating I did as an intern was my senior or attending's brain working to move my unskilled hands. Getting in the OR early is great and necessary, but anyone telling you they are the primary surgeon as an intern is deluding themselves. Intern year and two year are primarily about learning the management of surgical patients in your subspecialty as Lucidsplash said. Progressive independence is the goal of residency and you need to be able to manage every facet of your patient's care.
 
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Do you feel like you’re among your kind of people when you’re rotating on surgery? You love being in the OR more than any other clinical setting and can envision being there as the highlight of your professional life, at least when you get to eventually run the operation?
 
Do you feel like you’re among your kind of people when you’re rotating on surgery? You love being in the OR more than any other clinical setting and can envision being there as the highlight of your professional life, at least when you get to eventually run the operation?

Yes.
That’s how I felt on ortho.
 
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