How many vets are involved in IVF..........whats your take on the ethical issues

[mandisa]

yes...........

I am wondering about the numbers of veterinarians involved in Ivf and AI plus embryo transfer.

How does a vet get involved in this area,training courses available etc.

What is your take on ethical issues involving these areas.?

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[Truth74]

Hey there,

It is very dependent on how far you want to go. There is a specialty called Theriogenology, which deals with all aspects of reproduction. There are also areas that involve AI without going through vet school. People do it for dairy cows all of the time. Embryo transfer is also becoming more common for expensive cows and mares that they don't want to ( or can not) actually carry the embryo to term.

Are you interested in research or the actual medicine?

I suggest you go here and here to check out the requirements, if you are interested in the vet school route.

 

[Electrophile]

If you're an undergrad, I would HIGHLY recommend you find a research lab in your animal science department (hopefully yours has one?) as there will be guaranteed projects ongoing on this, so you can definitely get some hands on training as an undergrad. I knew a few folks who did this when they were undergrads and said it was a good experience.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Ivf and AI are well known and common procedures in production medicine, especially beef and dairy cattle. I'd start there looking for training. Is there a good animal science dept at your college? Ask some of the large animal people.

 

[aggiegolf]

The entire time I was in theriogenology I thought "if the animal isn't getting pregnant on her own, why are we trying so hard to make her pregnant?". I'm not particularly against AI or embryo transfer, but I am a bit concerned about the genetic consequences of these procedures. Just my two cents..

 

[david594]

<p>&lt;p&gt;

The entire time I was in theriogenology I thought if the animal isn't getting pregnant on her own, why are we trying so hard to make her pregnant?. I'm not particularly against AI or embryo transfer, but I am a bit concerned about the genetic consequences of these procedures. Just my two cents..

I work for a Therio vet that does dogs and to quote the slogan on the side of a cooler box:

"Ship the semen, not the bitch! Fresh Kooled Semen"

Although it seems a lot of the AI we do is because of the males.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

"if the animal isn't getting pregnant on her own, why are we trying so hard to make her pregnant?"

Because we lose tons of money in weaned calf pounds and milk production over time if she doesn't (in large animal, at least) and would just end up culling her because it is too expensive to feed something that isn't producing.

 

[Jochebed]

The entire time I was in theriogenology I thought "if the animal isn't getting pregnant on her own, why are we trying so hard to make her pregnant?". I'm not particularly against AI or embryo transfer, but I am a bit concerned about the genetic consequences of these procedures. Just my two cents..

(not saying I agree with all these reasons, they're just what I could think of)
#1 - the owners are willing to pay for it
#2 - the animal runs fast, looks pretty, etc (particularly for horses)
#3 - convenience and efficiency, synchronized breeding protocols and thus synchronized, predictable and/or year round births, meeting a birth "deadline" (thoroughbreds), etc.

My thoughts.

 

[Bill59]

The entire time I was in theriogenology I thought "if the animal isn't getting pregnant on her own, why are we trying so hard to make her pregnant?". I'm not particularly against AI or embryo transfer, but I am a bit concerned about the genetic consequences of these procedures.

Unlike in human medicine, AI and ET are not usually done because of infertility. They are done in large animals primarily to increase the number of offspring of a paritcular sire (AI) or dam (ET).

Even the most dedicated stallion can only cover so many mares in a season. But with AI, he can become father to 1000s of offspring. If he's truly an exceptional horse, this can have a much bigger effect on improving the breed (not to mention earn more money from breeding fees).

But as you point out, there are potential disadvantages, particularly if he is not as exceptional as everyone thinks. A good example is the founder effect, like happened with the stallion Impressive. He had a spontaneous mutation in muscle sodium channel that was passed on to 1000s of offspring, causing hyperkalemic periodic paralysis.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Plus the fact Impressive was one of the poorest physical examples of a true working QH, in my opinion....hugely muscular, heavy bodied, all supported on those tiny little QH feet. Breeding for show and not function doesn't just happen in the dog world.

 

[david594]

Unlike in human medicine, AI and ET are not usually done because of infertility.

I could be wrong, but small animal Therio work tends to be heavily focussed on infertility issues. A good number of the AI's I've been involved with have been because of issues getting 2 particular dogs to breed.

 

[eventualeventer]

Embryo transfer is also used for mares who can conceive but have difficulty maintaining a pregnancy.

 

[InfiniVet]

Plus the fact Impressive was one of the poorest physical examples of a true working QH, in my opinion....hugely muscular, heavy bodied, all supported on those tiny little QH feet. Breeding for show and not function doesn't just happen in the dog world.

A. My avatar is a picture of my personal horse, my hunny bunny Bailey, who was a grandson of Impressive, HYPP Heterozygous, and was the best damn working horse I have ever had the privilege to meet much less work with. That horse was way smarter than me, and had a heart so big he'd run through a brick wall if you simply asked him to. Died of causes unrelated to HYPP last summer. *RIP*

B. "Breeding for show and not function doesn't just happen in the dog world."
Wha? Please explain the Pekingese breed.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

?That's what I meant. The Pekingnese was bred for show, not function (or that is what it has been turned into). Show Border collies are being turned into fluffy showsters who wouldn't know what to do with a sheep if it kicked them in the face. Show pugs have facial features ten times worse than the original in terms of airway constriction. Don't get me started on the hounds group such as Doxies and Bloods...they've been made genetic messes as well.

I should have said "Breeding for show and not function doesn't happen ONLY in the dog world." I.e. it happens in horses as well.

I also didn't mean to imply that descendants of Impressive were necessarily cruddy horses....if that is why you mentioned yours. I am sorry if I hit a nerve on that. *He* as singular horse was not what the original working QH was meant to be (that is, quick, light to medium wt, turn on a dime, etc). A big, overly muscle-y, heavy QH cannot properly do its job and cannot maneuver as quickly just as an overly squat, wrinkley Basset cannot be the athletic flusher it was meant to be.

 

[InfiniVet]

?That's what I meant. The Pekingnese was bred for show, not function (or that is what it has been turned into).
I also didn't mean to imply that descendants of Impressive were necessarily cruddy horses....if that is why you mentioned yours. I am sorry if I hit a nerve on that.

If I had an IQ higher than a very small lemon I would have been able to pick up your logic right away about the show vs. function, and I would have completely agreed with you. Unfortunately last night I did not...I had spent all of my brain cells except 1 on studying, and that last guy was working third shift.

Same with the Impressive comment. It is completely clear & evident that you were not attacking the line at all, and only a emotional looney who still cries over missing her horse would have read into that. Not only that but I full on agree with you. They tried to breed for perfection and ended up with a nervous but well muscled horse who wasn't good for anything except having his picture taken. He also tainted the entire breed with his genetic defect.

I was completely wrong, my apologies.

 

[Pandacinny]

"only a emotional looney who still cries over missing her horse would have read into that"

Totally off topic, but my boyfriend does this funny impersonation of my 18 year old cat who was euthanized over the summer. (She had a funny meow and he mimics it really well.) Occasionally, he'll do it to my current cat. Every time he does it, I cry or almost start crying. So I totally understand that "emotional looney" thing.

Sorry for that - back to IVF!

 

[sumstorm]

IVF and AI are increasingly crucial in wildlife/exotics to maintain reasonable genetic health and in species recovery. Not ideal, but extinction = desperation.

 

[Caninerepro]

Uh yeah on all the can't get them to breed BS.

Most AI's I have done were because it was safer and cheaper than shipping the bitch (often out of the country), or because the outstanding sire was dead or too old to be bred any longer, and the locally available studs were of lesser quality than what could be found in a tank of liquid nitrogen Fed-Exed to the clinic. Then again, what do I know, I am a former professional dog handler who breeds BIS winning Border Collies and Australian Shepherds.

Now for the c-section debate because they cannot safely whelp on their own ...

As for IVF in canines, it is not commercially viable as of yet. Do it all the time in high value bovines, not to mention sexing of semen in dairy. Go figure.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Then again, what do I know, I am a former professional dog handler who breeds BIS winning Border Collies and Australian Shepherds.

You could have entered your opinion or correction to someone else' knowledge without throwing your weight around in such a sarcastic manner. However, I agree that it isn't just a matter of the bitch or heifer or whatnot being unable to get pregnant, there are a lot of issues involved from reducing stress of the animals (shipping, you mentioned) to preserving bloodlines and breeding out faults (ie, if the best, healthiest GSD stud for your American line is in Germany, use that one via semen/AI and not a local one with mediocre hips or poor skin).

It's not just breeding the best to the best in terms of prettiness (though unfortunately a lot of breeds have tended towards that way), sometimes it is a very effective way to breed out abnormalities or risk factors that have become entrenched in certain lines - and sometimes due to distance or health reasons, natural service is impossible or overly difficult.

not to mention sexing of semen in dairy

That's a very interesting issue, I had completely forgotten to bring it up. The jury still seems to be out on the field efficacy of sexed semen, both due to its viability, the availability of only low doses (i.e. you need skilled inseminators) and the tendency to, when bull calfs ARE conceived, produce stillborn bull calfs that can be causes of many pregnancy issues that could hurt your breeding stock further down the line (dystocias, etc). Bovine repro has gotten into sci fi land sometimes, it seems! I mean, using flow cytometry to sex semen? That's crazy, and awesome...well, to me anyway


Now for the c-section debate because they cannot safely whelp on their own ...

I know, that issue makes my hackles rise, too. If anyone is going to make a "well if they can't do it naturally..." arguement, it definitely applies to that scenario (in terms of it being a fault, not in terms of not caring for the bitch, of course!)

 

[Electrophile]

Then again, what do I know, I am a former professional dog handler who breeds BIS winning Border Collies and Australian Shepherds.

Oh, you mean Barbie collies? Oh well then...we all bow to your superior knowledge as we forgot that the pinnacle of experience with a working/herding breed is making them run around a ring and letting them mate.

 

[Caninerepro]

Oh, you mean Barbie collies?

Smile. Let us face the facts, the days of truly needing a dog to help herd cows on a daily basis are long gone. I actually started out in working herding dogs, I still wear Wranglers and boots most days. However that is irrelevant. My humble personal opinion is that IF one is going to actually bring even more dogs into the world, they need to be the absolute best, and healthiest, humanly possible -- whether they are models who make a pretty picture, hunting dogs who bring the bird back all day, or yes ranch dogs that help bring in the stock. That is often not the closest available boy. Otherwise the breeders are no better than the idiots who let their bitch in heat run loose through the neighborhood to get bred by anyone and everyone, much less the fools who think they are going to make megabucks selling their pet puppies for overinflated prices or create new "designer dogs". Let's face it, the only people who actually make money in the breeding dogs game is going to be us, the veterinarians!

As for sexed semen, I currently work with the guy at Colorado State who invented the procedure. A bovine researcher and rancher. Stuff like this is not for the general public/small producer, but rather to be performed by educated, skilled veterinarians who are trained in the proper procedures involved in AI techniques or those involved individuals who have the money and facilities to accomodate the technology, sorry. I was involved marginally in Dr. Siedel's unsuccessful attempts to apply the technology to canines a year ago -- he is the reason I came to CSU from Washington for my graduate work. In dogs it is not probably not going to work, nor is it economically viable. However in cattle it really does work, at least with some sires. Individual sires work better than others as far as semen surviving the sorting process, as well as the resulting viability of the sperm. That is really the problem with canines -- only about 35% of all sires in any species have semen that really works well with cytometry, and it rarely happens to be the same sire who is the best match with a given bitch. In cattle it is not quite as critical exactly who the father of the calf is, in dogs it is everything, and I do not think breeding for the trait of having semen that survives sorting is the most important one to select for. The absolute best resulting puppies are the only thing that matters.

I am well aware that the field I am getting into is very controversial, and that in reality I am going to make few friends in my profession by doing what I will be doing. However, my feeling is that if I am actually going to do what I truly love in life, I have to do so to the utmost of my ability, and yield the absolute best and healthiest puppies I can for the clients who ask me to do so -- the puppies did not ask to be born, but I CAN make their lives as enjoyable as I possibly can. I did not go into vet med for the humans, I am doing so for the dogs. They are all that truly matters to me. I am sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

the days of truly needing a dog to help herd cows on a daily basis are long gone

Boy, not where I live. working cattle/sheep/goat dogs are essential. It's quite a regional thing and in many areas having a working dog IS necessary, or at least extremely helpful. And don't tell me they don't need sheepdogs in northern England or Australia !

But I digress...

I adore borders (grew up with em). Have you read Donald McCraig's "The Dog Wars: How the Border Collie Battled the American Kennel Club" ? It's a very good book about the debates between the ABCA and local registries and AKC with regards to inclusion of the BC, and about the issues regarding the "idea BC"....and how working ability got thrown down the tubes when the AKC took hold.


Stuff like this is not for the general public/small producer, but rather to be performed by educated, skilled veterinarians who are trained in the proper procedures involved in AI techniques or those involved individuals who have the money and facilities to accomodate the technology, sorry.....However in cattle it really does work, at least with some sires.

Uh,I never said otherwise. I know quite well. I have talked numerous times with the top guys in Select Sires about it, as well as various researchers, the last Bovine Reproduction weekend symposium I spent with them @ VMRCVM. I didn't say anyone should go out and do it. I said, if you are going to train people to do it (producers, vets, etc) you need to train them well because it's difficult due to sperm number, handling delicacy, etc. And you do realize that on many large *and* small operations, AI is performed by trained staff, not only vets.

....and there IS conflicting data in terms of conception rates.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I am well aware that the field I am getting into is very controversial, and that in reality I am going to make few friends in my profession by doing what I will be doing.

I don't believe that at all . I know several students who responsibly breed and show. Contrary to popular beliefs, there isn't a lot of crazy animal rights (i.e. no breeding!! noo breeding bad!!) in vet school. Most of us are comfortable with careful, responsible, health tested breedings. Personally, I would very much like to someday get into Catahoula Hound, B&Ts, or Mountain Cur breeding. I love working dogs, especially hounds.

 

[Electrophile]

Oh, you mean Barbie collies?

Smile. Let us face the facts, the days of truly needing a dog to help herd cows on a daily basis are long gone. I actually started out in working herding dogs, I still wear Wranglers and boots most days. However that is irrelevant. My humble personal opinion is that IF one is going to actually bring even more dogs into the world, they need to be the absolute best, and healthiest, humanly possible -- whether they are models who make a pretty picture, hunting dogs who bring the bird back all day, or yes ranch dogs that help bring in the stock. That is often not the closest available boy. Otherwise the breeders are no better than the idiots who let their bitch in heat run loose through the neighborhood to get bred by anyone and everyone, much less the fools who think they are going to make megabucks selling their pet puppies for overinflated prices or create new "designer dogs". Let's face it, the only people who actually make money in the breeding dogs game is going to be us, the veterinarians!
....

The absolute best resulting puppies are the only thing that matters.

....

I am well aware that the field I am getting into is very controversial, and that in reality I am going to make few friends in my profession by doing what I will be doing. However, my feeling is that if I am actually going to do what I truly love in life, I have to do so to the utmost of my ability, and yield the absolute best and healthiest puppies I can for the clients who ask me to do so -- the puppies did not ask to be born, but I CAN make their lives as enjoyable as I possibly can. I did not go into vet med for the humans, I am doing so for the dogs. They are all that truly matters to me. I am sorry if I offended anyone.

Kai Howell
U WI class of 2013

I plan on having stock when I get out of school and can own some land, as I plan to be a mixed practice doctor and it sure helps to know the husbandry first hand of those critters. Having a great stock dog (and a stock horse!) is far from obsolete. Hopefully my Malinois can cut it. And form follows FUNCTION. NEVER the other way around. See below:

Earthdog terriers: http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm
Salukis: http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/belkin.htm
German shepherds: http://leerburg.com/germblod.htm and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU1IZyUv6Yk
American pit bull terriers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9nnF1AeY6A

Show breeders pay lip service to having "good temperament," but many never prove it, not even with getting a simple CGC. When you lose the working characteristics of the dog, you lose the character. Why buy a Porsche with a VW engine? If you want to spend hours blow drying a dog so you can parade it around a little ring, get a NON-working dog like a shih tzu or Pomeranian. They were bred to look pretty.

They also play lip service to having good health via structure. Many don't do ANY health testing at all, but beyond that, it's well known that if you want your dog to win in the show ring, you can't have it at a "working weight," it has to be FAT at a "show weight." Carrying that extra 10-15 lbs for "show weight" is sure great for those joints. Was great for my now terribly dysplastic (hips and elbows) AKC show champion Rottweiler that we got as a rescue. Take a look at the Malinois breed ring at Westminster:

http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=0#videoid=1002862

Then see this video of Malinois (and some Dutch shepherds and GSDs thrown in) doing working protection and protection sport like KNPV, Schutzhund, and ring sport Which dogs are better holding to the true purpose of the breed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKf3Vhh0iWY

Show breeders RUIN breeds, plain and simple. If I wanted a dog that could walk around on its hocks like the American show shepherd (or ASS for short), I'd get a rabbit.

 

[Caninerepro]

I am not going to get into an arguement with you over what is the "true best Mal" or whatever. Besides, Mals are not the really fluffy of the Belgian varieties. To be honest, what the people do with the puppies I help conceive is not my business. There is no reason why a performance dog cannot be inseminated just the same as the fluffy one. I thought the original posting was about what was available/being done in terms of assisted reproduction, not a slam on conformation dogs. That is what I was trying to answer, at least within the dog world.

Once again, sorry to offend,
Kai

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

To be honest, what the people do with the puppies I help conceive is not my business.

.....It should be. Every single good breeder I have known is willing to take back any pup, at any time, for whatever reason; it's in their breeding contract. They stipulate spay/neuter in pet quality animals. They keep in touch with owners and follow the pups.

But back to topic....I was just a bit shocked at that statement....


Yes, conformation IS absolutely related to assisted reproduction, because many people in the SA and equine world use such techniques for conformation purposes.

It is an issue because with the continued focus on conformation we sacrifice reproductive ability in many cases, like the C section issue you mentioned.

I wonder if, through an increased use of assisted reproduction, we would remove fertility and breeding ability from our "top dogs" and create yet another deficit in the name of conformation? That's my question.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

It has to be FAT at a "show weight." Carrying that extra 10-15 lbs for "show weight" is sure great for those joints.

Labradors? The westminster labs make me cringe. The funny thing is, a purebred working lab would be laughed out of the ring. Short and skinny. Same as a purebred working border collie. My parent's recent border came from a purely working family, ABCA registered, herding titles throughout the whole line, a combo of American and Scottish lines. And despite her pedigree, you know what made her unable to be shown? She was too tall and had a blue eye. Ridiculous.

If you want to look up the ultimate uncorrupted working dog, check out Mountain Curs, specifically Originals and Kemmers. My dog is an OMC, 35 lbs of squirrel treeing madness. I hope the AKC never gets to them as it recently got to the Plott Hound. I love my Appalachian hunters!

 

[Caninerepro]

Of course any responsible breeder will take back any puppy, at any time and in any condition, and when it is my litter it is stipulated in the contract along with mandatory spays on pets. It is actually quite difficult to get a breeding puppy or adult out of me, and to use my studs. I have also trained and trialed three Working Trial Champions in two different breeds, how many have you done? I simply do not pretend that the ultimate conformation performer is the best herder, or vice versa. To be honest, the best working dogs usually make the absolute worst companions -- they are way too hyper for J Q Public, and usually are too sharp tempermentally as well. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and what you like does not have to be what I prefer.

That has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I was saying that as an inseminator, I do not get to choose what purpose the dog I am inseminating is used/bred for.

 

[Pandacinny]

However that is irrelevant. My humble personal opinion is that IF one is going to actually bring even more dogs into the world, they need to be the absolute best, and healthiest, humanly possible -- whether they are models who make a pretty picture, hunting dogs who bring the bird back all day, or yes ranch dogs that help bring in the stock.

Right, okay, so what part of a healthy breeding program involves a closed stud book and so much inbreeding that some breeds are less genetically diverse than endangered species? Or the part where we specifically select for traits that lead to illness or discomfort for the dog, like pushed in faces or excessively shortened limbs or "flashy" double dapple/merle coats or any of a dozen other traits that are specifically bred for (whether because of fad or standard.)

Seriously, show quality does not mean healthy. And standards aren't there for the health of the dog, they're determined by the whim of the breed club. The genetic problems in purebred dogs are NOT simply the fault of indiscriminate breeding by back-yard breeders or puppy mills. They're written into the standards themselves and perpetuated by a breeding process that values whim and fancy over working ability or health.

 

[Pandacinny]

Also, I wasn't trying to say that there aren't people out there focused on good health or good working ability (or both.) Just that the fact that you've spent years breeding BIS collies doesn't mean you're breeding healthy dogs.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Then again, what do I know, I am a former professional dog handler who breeds BIS winning Border Collies and Australian Shepherds.

I have also trained and trialed three Working Trial Champions in two different breeds, how many have you done?

You seem to have an inferiority complex. we aren't comparing who has the most experience training and trialing and therefore has permission to speak knowledgeably on the subject. I may not have worked in your specific world but that does not mean I know nothing about breeding or training....four years of metabolic biochem and animal science plus three years of vet school helps, and several more of tracking certifications and behavior consulting assistance, if we are to compare "records". So if you think only "those in the business" can speak, hopefully I have made myself worthy of talking on the subject in your opinion.

I did not realize, however, that you were talking "as inseminator" and I agree that in such a capacity you don't have a say. I think it was just the tone you used that made me think you were talking specifically about breeding and it being a "it's not my business as in I don't care" rather than "it's not my business because it can't be my business, I'm just the working help" Sorry I misinterpreted.

To be honest, the best working dogs usually make the absolute worst companions -- they are way too hyper for J Q Public, and usually are too sharp tempermentally as well.

I agree, but that isn't an excuse (*not* saying you do this, this is just another thing that makes my hackles rise about indsicriminate pet breeders) to breed dumbed-down version of terrific working dogs just so JqP can own them. This has happened to the BC, the German Shepherd, and many others. Esp the GSD. They aren't meant to be the couch potato black and tan lumps they are now.

They aren't meant to be owned by JqP, and just because someone wants one doesn't mean it is legitimate to breed lazy, less talented, less drivey dogs. If they want a couch potato, get another breed. A comparision: should we dumb down teaching in college just so everyone can pass? No. Should we water down vet school and make it easier for JqP to pass? No. You'll produce inferior doctors, and going back to the original statement, inferior dogs.

This leads to lines being further and further diluted with an influx of "picket-fence family pets" until the breed is no longer recognizable except by its (usually overdone) appearance.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Now that said, I have been known to have a markedly lower rate of conception with owners I did not approve of. Evil grin......

Er...I understand your feelings and would be mildly tempted to do the same but...that just doesn't seem right....charging clients for something and then purposefully doing a bad job?

 

[alliecat44]

Now that said, I have been known to have a markedly lower rate of conception with owners I did not approve of. Evil grin...... That or it costs so much for me to do the procedure that they go elsewhere. I learned that from the vet I work for.

I'm sure the society for veterinary medical ethics would be interested in knowing who this vet is that you used to work for. Sure doesn't sound very ethical to me.

Did you say you had been accepted to veterinary school this cycle?

How do you justify this ethically?

Perhaps I misunderstood...

 

[Caninerepro]

Look people I am sorry for my p*ss poor attitude today. I think I overstated my position here and gave the wrong impression (duh). That is what 34 hours of being awake and 7 cups of cofee will do to me. I am crawling back in my hole now -- one more test to go this week. People keep telling me now that I have gotten in at a few places I should stop trying so hard in school, but I just can't let go. B's are simply unacceptable!

When I implied that I intentionally tried not to get dogs pregnant, what I meant was when doing a surgical insemination with frozen semen, inorder to get the 95% conception rate that is possible under the best of conditions (actually higher than a standard natural breeding), there is an about 4 hour window of maximum fertility, which inevitable occurs at about 2:00am on a Saturday night. We only come in at those hours for good, long time clients as it is not a 24hr emergency clinic, and if so there is an after hours fee. For the rest, the clinic is open from 8am to 4pm -- normal business hours. Otherwise they are welcome to utilize any of the many emergency clinics or their regular, local veterinarian. Let's face it, getting a dog pregnant is not a life or death situation. (well maybe it is technically, but you get my point) To be honest, the less serious "breeders" are not willing to come in during the middle of the night anyhow, nor are they willing to run the number of P4 tests needed to pin the ovulation time down so closely -- as many as 2 a day everyday. You can still get an about 80% success rate even being 12 hours off on the timing. Were it a emergency situation of course we would be there in a heartbeat, even on Christmas night or whenever. In fact I did assist on an insemination this last Christmas eve. Nor would anyone at the clinic EVER actually intentionally do anything to try to fail. Ever. Or would anyone take money from a client in the knowledge that it was being spent in vain.

BTW, I am also talking about inseminations, not c-sections. Those ARE do them now emergency occasions, and if for some reason someone at the clinic is unable to perform the procedure there are 2 emergency clinics within a 15 mile radius of our location, which are staffed with fully capable practicioners who have performed numerous similar procedures.


Kai

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Relax and good luck. B's are more than acceptable, Bs are fine! The vast, vast majority of veterinary and medical students have gotten As and Bs in college/prevet reqs, and dare I say it, some Cs too! Bs are not a death sentence by ANY means. But I know the feeling, all of us are perfectionists to some degree. Go take a hot bath and some tea! Pet your dogs for me.

 

[Pandacinny]

Not to mention Bs in what sounds like a fairly rigorous coursework based Masters vs B's in undergrad. I doubt a B or two is going to hurt too much - don't kill yourself!

 

[alliecat44]

Oh my god, calm down about the Bs. Seriously! You've already been accepted--the competition is over.

(Plus, you will make yourself miserable if you continue with that attitude in vet school!)

 

[david594]

Look people I am sorry for my p*ss poor attitude today. I think I overstated my position here and gave the wrong impression (duh). That is what 34 hours of being awake and 7 cups of cofee will do to me. I am crawling back in my hole now -- one more test to go this week. People keep telling me now that I have gotten in at a few places I should stop trying so hard in school, but I just can't let go. B's are simply unacceptable!

Wait, so you are a student who hasnt even started vet school yet?

Reading all your posts with your "I" and "we" references I was assuming you were a veterinarian and with the way you were talking minimally a therio resident.

 

[Jochebed]

B's are simply unacceptable!

Seriously, I agree with the other folks. B's are quite acceptable (at least to me) in vet school. I was THRILLED with my B in Pharm. So, eh, I guess expectations come down a bit once the threat of applications is gone.

 

[Caninerepro]

Yeah I too have gotten more than my share of B's -- even a C, but that was in calculus and who cares about math!!! I was glad to just get out of that one alive! Anyhow I am just a bit OCD, totally unlike anyone else on these forums!!!!

As to my educational status -- yes I am just a beginning vet student. However I have a Masters in what amounts to reproductive endocrinology, along with a few years of experience working in a therio only small animal clinic, where I was what amounted to the lead surgical tech for the practice. My bad habit of referring to things as "we and I" is something I picked up from the practitioners, that is how they refer to me as a pretty much equal partner in crime. It gets confusing to some, and yes I do get called Dr. by a lot of the clients. I was told to just ignore it and stop correcting them, although you will never hear me refer to myself as Dr. or a veterinarian. The mistaken illusion by the clients was also used as a very effective weapon by the REAL vets in the clinic to get my butt back to school and actually get my DVM. I was quite happy with my life of obscurity. Anyhow, to reiterate, I am a grad student fixing to START vet school in the fall, when I decide where I want to go. I am actually in a motel room waiting for an interview at another school as I type this.

Sorry for the confusion. It is a bad habit I thought I had broken, and did not want to mislead anyone.

Kai the NON-vet -- for now.

 

[Caninerepro]

Also, just FYI, the adorable 4 week old puppy in the picture is now 7 years old, and he and his mother are the lights of my life, and the center of my known universe. They also happen to be BIS winners, the sire or dam of BIS winners and National Specialty winners, as well as whatever. But far more importantly, they sleep on my bed EVERY night (I had to buy a bigger bed for THEIR comfort, not mine, OK so I bought a bigger one so I too could sleep on the mattress).
I have just spent 3 whole days away from them as I interviewed at an excellent vet school, one which would be very good for our combined future. I miss them terribly, and can hardly wait until I can pick my kids up from my friend's house tomorrow morning. My kids are my world, and anyone who thinks otherwise is sorely mistaken. I am in repro because I know how much dogs mean to some people, and also because I know that my innate skills in that field -- it is kind of like plastic surgery with humans -- can enable me to provide services to other, less fortunate individuals at a lower cost (ie no cost) who may not have the cash, but still love their kids as much as if they were humans. Or more so because they are not!

Kai

 

[Electrophile]

I am in repro because I know how much dogs mean to some people, and also because I know that my innate skills in that field -- it is kind of like plastic surgery with humans -- can enable me to provide services to other, less fortunate individuals at a lower cost (ie no cost) who may not have the cash, but still love their kids as much as if they were humans. Or more so because they are not!

Kai

Wait...WHAT? You mean like helping out people like that nutjob woman who spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to clone her deceased pet pit bull? If people can't afford to have their next little precious pet through natural means, why subsidize that for them? Having a pet is not some unalienable right. I am NOT anti-responsible breeder by any means, but that's like that giving that crazy woman with the clown car uterus and her enormous brood extra money to have more in vitro. People need to be able to face reality that if their pet is gone, having a pup from that animal either through IVF, cloning, natural means, whatever is not going to be the same. It's probably some extreme psychological fear of death that people go through that many hoops to recreate their animal and IMO it's professionally irresponsible to enable that behavior. If people want to use IVF to improve the breed, that's fine. But if they just want an identical pup from their beloved but deceased Pookie, they need to get over it.

Not to mention animals are NOT furkids, furbabies, or any other anthropomorphic term. They are ANIMIALS. Many pet lovers say, well, what's wrong with that? Two main things from my perspective. When people treat their dogs or whatever as people and not as dogs, you invariably get behavior problems. I see this all the time as a behaviorist. You get pushy, even potentially dangerous behavior because you have weak leadership from the dog's perspective. Second, the furbaby crowd that is pushing for legal guardianship of their pets instead of ownership will eventually price veterinary medicine out of the range for many owners because our liability insurance will be so high if we can be sued for emotional damages and all that like in human medicine. That's no good for anyone. And heck, I have two snakes. Should I started calling them my scale kids? Train them like animals, treat them like animals, love them like they are people.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

And heck, I have two snakes. Should I started calling them my scale kids?

Reptibabies! I admit I have called mine my "scalies" a few times...but there's no way they come before me in any way, shape or form. You're dead on that animals are animals, and extreme anthropomorphism is a one way ticket to badness. Even my dog, who I love to death. Human life >>> animal life in the big scheme of things. And before anyone jumps on me for that statement, I am by no means says that veterinary work is inferior to human medicine. Not at all. I'm speaking purely in metaphysical terms, if you will (gosh, I'm starting to awkwardly "philosophize"....), not in terms of the skill, knowledge, and impact of our profession.

 

[Caninerepro]

Wait...WHAT? You mean like helping out people like that nutjob woman who spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to clone her deceased pet pit bull? If people can't afford to have their next little precious pet through natural means, why subsidize that for them? Having a pet is not some unalienable right. I am NOT anti-responsible breeder by any means, but that's like that giving that crazy woman with the clown car uterus and her enormous brood extra money to have more in vitro.
Not to mention animals are NOT furkids, furbabies, or any other anthropomorphic term. They are ANIMIALS. Train them like animals, treat them like animals, love them like they are people.

What? WTF! When in the heck did I ever say anything about cloning or furbabies? No way no how people. It don't work that way anyhow people. So I get boarded in therio (which means I have to work with more than just dogs, like grass burners too), and if I happen to make a little money getting critters pregnant I see no reason why I can't take some of that $ and use it for supplies and whatnot to say help people with AIDS, or the poor, get shots for their pets.

As to treating my dogs like humans, no way! I am the alpha, I make the rules and they do what I ask w/o questioning. I do not anthromorph my dogs -- so I call them my kids, that does not mean they are spoiled and wear clothes or whatever BS. Yes, I train them like the dogs they are, I treat them like animals, and I love them like the people they are -- just not humans.

As to cloning, I want nothing to do with that, and IVF does not work in dogs, at least no one has figured it out as of yet. We can't even really sex semen reliably as can be done in cattle and horses right now. I am at the place (XY) that has the patents of the technology for non-humans, and they are not even working on dogs. It is why I am moving on from CSU -- working on that was why I came here originally.

I do not want to do research anymore, I have no interest in cloning, and my kids get their butts beat when they step out of line, as they should.

Whatever peeps!

 

[Electrophile]

What? WTF! When in the heck did I ever say anything about cloning or furbabies? No way no how people. It don't work that way anyhow people. So I get boarded in therio (which means I have to work with more than just dogs, like grass burners too), and if I happen to make a little money getting critters pregnant I see no reason why I can't take some of that $ and use it for supplies and whatnot to say help people with AIDS, or the poor, get shots for their pets.

Ah ha! Your post didn't read like that to me at all...your comment about the plastic surgeons made me think of plastic surgeons who donate their time for kids who end up in horrific accidents or have severe facial birth defects, so I read it like "I likewise want donate my talents in repro/therio for people who can't afford it otherwise." That made me go like poor people *need* to have some dog that was created with thousands of dollars worth of effort, just like that bat**** crazy woman who had her pit bull cloned.

As to treating my dogs like humans, no way! I am the alpha, I make the rules and they do what I ask w/o questioning. I do not anthromorph my dogs -- so I call them my kids, that does not mean they are spoiled and wear clothes or whatever BS. Yes, I train them like the dogs they are, I treat them like animals, and I love them like the people they are -- just not humans.

I still disagree with calling your pets your "kids" (unless they are baby goats). I cringe every time I hear people say that as it goes along with enabling the good intentioned though thoroughly misguided furbaby crowd.

 

[david594]

Haha, so you want to "make bank!" on specialty services so you can make the more essential services more available to all?

I'm down with that. I want to make good money so I can use my morning off to go to the local animal shelter and do more involved procedures so some of the animals can have a chance to be adopted instead of just being euthed.

 

[Caninerepro]

I still disagree with calling your pets your "kids" (unless they are baby goats). I cringe every time I hear people say that as it goes along with enabling the good intentioned though thoroughly misguided furbaby crowd.

Ok we will agree to disagree on that, no problem. I have known all along that you and I would never see eye to eye on much of anything, and that is cool by me, no worries. Sorry if I creep you out by loving my dogs more than I do most humans. To each their own, that is why the world is round and I am also well aware of how controversial the kind of medicine I love to be involved in is -- remember at the moment I am still at a PETA school if there ever was one. Still, cloning just does not work for what the general public would want it for. It is a toy for the researchers, and that is exactly where it needs to stay. Not for this white boy.

As for going into therio to make money, dream on! From the area of dogdom I came from, no vet salary can match that, except maybe orthopedics. I was a freak of nature at showing dogs, and I made a very comfortable living. It was sheer luck more than any innate skill, I fell into it. Becoming a vet is my idea of an early retirement, and repro has always been my dream job. That said, I could never do general practice. The job would bore me to death, and the thought of doing the same three things every day (shots spays and euths) would bore me to death, and equally depress me. Plus I cannot live on $50,000.00 a year, or less. The approximately $100,000.00 I might make will just about cover my needs if I can invest wisely. I am not going into vet med expecting to "make bank", that just does not happen! Dream on! But, if I can make enough to be able to do some "comp work" occasionally, what is wrong with using my position to help others? I do not know that it will be done at shelters, but every once in a while even I like to be a nice guy.

I make no claims of being in vet med because I want to save the world. I am not a bleeding heart in any way shape nor fashion. I have just loved medicine since I was 10, and vet med since I was about 14. I am what is called a professional dog man. I can deal with the high end fancier far easily than the pet owner, and I know that. I have finally gotten myself to a place in life where I can follow my passion -- which has always been veterinary medicine. I intend to run with this until my last days, and will probably exit this world face down in some poor dog's gut in the surgery suite. I can think of no better way to live out the rest of my life, this is my passion.

Kai

 

[david594]

As for going into therio to make money, dream on! From the area of dogdom I came from, no vet salary can match that, except maybe orthopedics.

Dream on? Your the one bragging about working for the best SA repro clinic out there and you are telling me there is no money in it?

That I find really hard to believe. Reason I think that?... I also work at a SA General practice/repro clinic with a board certified theriogeneologist. The repro clients are the ones who have the money to pay for the services. They can afford the premiums charged for really the only aspect of veterinary medicine that is completely elective. Never had a client ask about paymant plans for their AI or their planned C-section.


I find it pretty funny though that you claim you'll never do general practice, but a post earlier you said you would want to use the extra money you make to do shots for underprivileged pet owners. Even though your going into therio which won't pay enough to provide for the lifestyle you want anyways?

You seems all over the board with what you want to do.

 

[TSUJC]

yes...........

I am wondering about the numbers of veterinarians involved in Ivf and AI plus embryo transfer.

How does a vet get involved in this area,training courses available etc.

What is your take on ethical issues involving these areas.?

When I was a freshman I became a certified AI tech for Genex Cooperative Inc. They offer short-courses that will certify you, however if you are to be hired by an AI company they require much more training (I was sent to a 3000 head dairy for a week, I had to get through at least 100 cows before I was allowed to work on my own). On average it takes about 150 cows to really get a GOOD feel for what you are doing.

http://genex.crinet.com/page48/AITraining

This website will lead you in the right direction.

As far as the ethical thing goes, I don’t even see how that comes into play here. Superior genetics are essential for high quality animal products. Also, AI is much safer than hand breeding or pasture breeding. It minimizes STD’s and prevents handlers from being injured by bulls.

 

[No Imagination]

1) How the hell did I miss this wonderful thread?

2) WHT, Like the old avatar better

3) I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Someone who has worked the last 5 years in a lab, working with only mice and rats, and before that, a SA city hospital, I hear words like "3,000 head herd", and I can't but help think, "What am I getting into?" - I'm just not comfortable around LA yet (but i've only seen like 20 cows my entire life, and that was from my car driving 60 (ok, 85) on a highway (ok, I did one bovine experiment, but they were already in (whatever those gates are called (stantions ?)), and I just took blood from a catheter.

4) I learned a lot reading this thread

5) Do you think the OP got her answer?

Seriously:

6) Should I be worried that I'm going into vet school without the LA foundation you guys have (I don't mean your expertise, but your general knowledge?)