How important are med school grades and Board scores for fellowships?

[Junkie_Smith]

Do these matter at all, or do they only matter for certain specialties? It seems as if everyone is saying that your letters matter, or your research matters, or who you know matters, but nobody says anything about grades or board scores. Do they only matter for competitive specialities, or does it vary depending on specialty?

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[Junkie_Smith]

So, um, really, does no one really know the answer to this question? I would have thought it basic enough that SOMEONE would know, either from past experience or from others...

 

[medlaw06]

Do these matter at all, or do they only matter for certain specialties? It seems as if everyone is saying that your letters matter, or your research matters, or who you know matters, but nobody says anything about grades or board scores. Do they only matter for competitive specialities, or does it vary depending on specialty?

i am in a pseudo-similar situation in that i am looking at IM with the intention of doing a fellowship...i have asked the same question to various people here at my med school as well as some family members who are in the fellowship fields and the one thing that i have heard most frequent is that once you are in your IM residency, start kissing butt to the fellowship director in the field you want to go in starting from the first day...obviously, they are exaggerating a little bit, but the point came across clear....a lot of it is WHO YOU KNOW!!! while your scores will definitely be helpful in you establishing a good relationship with the fellowship directors, if they don't like you then it hurts your chances as compared to someone with SLIGHTLY lower grades than yours but they like him/her...another way to buid the relationship is in the research you do with that department since you can "schmooze" (sp?) with the faculty and your name can get around...but the thing is how is your name getting aroound....are they saying "damn...we have this person junky smith who is a real ******* because he/she is impossible to work with in the labs" or are they saying "dude (I'm not sure how many fellow attendings say "dude," but we'll play along) this junkie smith does great work in [insert your fellowship field here] and is absolutely a riot..we gotta have this person in our fellowship."

bottom line: it's pretty much WHO you know and how much they like you, but you could know the president of the fellowship but if they don't like you then start looking elsewhere...so that just begs the question as to #1) how do you get to know the WHOs of the field, and 2) how do you get them to like you...the answer to #1) attend conferences, research in the field, etc., and the answer to #2) drop in the conversation your borad scores in a SUBTLE manner, and hope that your karmic forces are in line with theirs obviosusly there is no exact 1 way of doing things, but i hope you get the point....one thing i have NEVER heard is how good of a med school you went to, but if you went to harvard, yale, etc., then i am sure it can't hurt...

hope this helps even a little bit....did the best i could...good luck!!!

 

[novacek88]

It depends entirely on the fellowship director and their fellows. With some programs, it's entirely about butt kissing and if they like you. They could care less about your grades and total package. Other directors like to stick to a guideline and do take everything into account. You can only find out this information by speaking to the fellows or residents of a particular program. They can inform you how they select their fellows. In general, the name brand programs look at everything because they are forced to due to the overwhelming number of top applicants they have but lesser tiered programs and community programs generally appoint fellows through the good ole boy/girl system in which if they like you, they will take you. However, them liking you has to do with more than just your personality. A lot of it has to do with your work ethic, others' opinion of you, your performance as a resident etc. If you have to be known as a great worker and a great person. You can't just be a popular person but is known to be an average worker or doesn't take on extra responsibility etc.

 

[Celsus]

Is getting an IM residency the same way. Is it more if they like you than grades?

 

[medlaw06]

Is getting an IM residency the same way. Is it more if they like you than grades?

hey cel...the # of applicants for general IM residency (or EM, Peds, or anything NOT specialized) is a lot higher than the # of applicants for fellowships....so, there needs to be other factors that come into play than simply how much they like you since they can't possibly get to know all the applicants (read on, b/c there is a caveat to this)....so, they DO look at grades and things like USMLE/COMLEX scores to essentially "weed out" people from thousands of applicants...tjhis is particularly true for some of the better known programs and those programs which are more well reputed since they also see more applicants...now, people may disagree with me here but I have my ample evidence also....they also look at where you went to med school, your LORs, your transcript, how well you did in your IM rotation (if you are applying to IM), general 3rd year grades, and extra-curricular activities....now the caveat that i was referring to earlier about how much they like you applies to 2 situaitons...1) if you are doing an elective at their place and the people there really like you, you have a much better chance of getting an interview (the foot in the door)...but if you are there and they start to not like you then its becomes a little harder for more obvious reasons....2) during the interview, they are also "jugding" your character and personality because they know that if they accept you, you will be with them ad nauseum (sp??) for 3 years so they wanna know if you are someone who can get along with their team of attendings, residents, and other interns....so if you come off as an a**, kiss your chances good bye, but if they like you then it obviously helps....

yes...i am making gross generalizations, but in a question such as this thread, there is no way to "emperically" prove anything...you kinda HAVE to make generalizations....i know people will vary in their opinions, but the more opinions, the better ....in any case, hope this helps even a little

 

[novacek88]

I think people take personality for granted and misinterpret what we are talking about in regards to "personality". In regards to personality, it's more than how well you get along with someone, it's also a measure of your character. How late do you stay? How much additional work do you accept? What do your colleagues and attendings think about you? Are you known as a smart, friendly and hardworking person who everyone would love to have on their team? Or are you simply a really cool person that everyone loves at parties but is known for being average to pretty good on the wards?

 

[medlaw06]

I think people take personality for granted and misinterpret what we are talking about in regards to "personality". In regards to personality, it's more than how well you get along with someone, it's also a measure of your character. How late do you stay? How much additional work do you accept? What do your colleagues and attendings think about you? Are you known as a smart, friendly and hardworking person who everyone would love to have on their team? Or are you simply a really cool person that everyone loves at parties but is known for being average to pretty good on the wards?

i completely agree with you novacek....i think people are misinterpretting me also when i say what i said earlier about having people like you....there is ALWAYS the assumption that you have to be good...i think people are taking what i am saying to the other extreme in that, by what i am saying means only that someone is a great party person to have around...that is NOT my intention at all...the things you mention (having people stay longer, take on more responsibility, etc.) is MY underlying assumption that I thought would come across, but I guess it did not so I apologize for that...but the thing that I am trying to get across in terms of having people like you takes the hardworking, staying longer, etc. ALL READY into account...i am talking about the "extra" stuff that pushes you over the edge....let's be honest here, if you and I don't get along and you are the position of "superiority" (i.e. PD, attending, resident, etc.) and I am the position of the lowly student trying to impress you to give me atleast an interview, then if I DO stay there longer and do more work, but nonetheless continue to irritate you, then how would you react...the longer i stay there and the more i am around you, the more you are going to get irritated with me, true?....

i think what i have been saying is being incorrectly interpretted, maybe due to my own lack of clear communication...of course, you have to be hard working and take on more responsibility and do a damn good job in what it is that you are doing...but, there is an ADDED dimension to that, which is the ability to get along with others in that particular program...true...if you are a winning personality, but all you do is slack off, do no work and are killling patients left and right, you become a liability to the department as well and there is NO WAY that they will take you....

i used to be quite introverted and not very "political" and was not able to "schmooze" with people also...i used to be the quiet, hardworking med student who made sure all the orders were written and followed through, all the labs were in, etc...etc...GREAT...BUT, i saw so many students getting ahead of me because they were able to "network" which I lacked....they were also good students but not as "thorough" as I was (once again, please do not take this to the other extreme)...fpr example,. if i was a "A" student, then they were like a B+....not bad, but not as thorough as I was, so why were they getting ahead....b/c people liked them....

it's something that sucks but it is a reality in life....no wonder there's even a cliche: "it's not how much you know, but who you know."

once again (i wanna re-emphasize this) please do not take this to the other extreme in that you know nothing but you still get ahead in life....that's not the case....

 

[esposo]

I was speaking to a couple of GI fellows and they made a good point. They told me to look at the tendency of the program to accept residents from within their program. Not all programs take from within their own ranks and some places are known for going exclusively outside their own program to select fellows. Other programs are known for favoring their own residents. It's important to look at the fellowship trends of each program because it's likely the trend will continue. If a place accepts it's own people, personality is probably the most important factor there because it's well known that residents network with fellows during their residency. And if a fellow likes working with a certain resident, they usually will accept him or her into their program.