How Hard is it to get into Uni Sydney Med?

[anomorato]

Hey everyone;

Iam looking into applying to Univ of Sydney Medical program for the 2008 term. For those who got in already and others who have some good feedback about that school, what kind of stats you think will get you in.
Iam a Canadian citizen with a Bs in Radiation Therapy from WSU. I have a 3.35 gpa, 2 yrs of clinical employment at a Cancer clinic and will be taking my MCAT in Jan 07...What do you think are my chances plz

And for those who can share their stats that got you in , I will greatly apprecaite it.

THank you

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[UofTGradStudent]

Hey Anomorato,

The funny thing about the USydMP (the short-form of University of Sydney Medical Program) is that though it's a prestigious, highly-reputed and large biomedical school, it's not that tough to get at an interview...at least, when compared to American and Canadian schools. That isn't to say it's easy to get in, however. Of the 300 internationals that applied, 150 got interviewed and 60 will be accepted, so you have a 25% shot of acceptance. I verified these #'s with Ken Chow of the education office at the USydMP.

Your GPA meets their 5.5/7.0 cut-off. Make sure to get 8/8/8/M (even a '7' will disqualify you) on the MCAT as I know ppl. who interviewed were rejected b/c of a '7'. Most people can get that score.

The USydMP GUARANTEES an interview to ppl. who meet both the GPA and MCAT cut-off. If you're sociable, intellectual, and quick-on-your-feet, you'll have a good shot at the interview. I happen to think that my social/intellectual skills shine more brightly than my books smarts so the interview worked in my favour.

Best.

UofTGradStudent

 

[UofTGradStudent]

Errata - actually, you have a 20% shot: 60/300...my bad

 

[jaketheory]

just thought id point out that it doesnt really make sense to say he has 20% chance of getting in simply because 300 applied for 60 spots. that would assume that every applicant is identical and admission is random.

first, you are basicly guarenteed an interview given you pass the mcat and gpa hurdles. the fact that 150 of the 300 applicants did not get interviews says something about the applicants.

secondly, after the mcat and gpa hurdle, the main criteria for admission will be the interview. to think everyone getting an interview has had even similar life experiences or posses similar social skills is absurd.

so i would say the stat is worthless, but i'd also say apply if that is where you want to go.

i also plan to apply 2008 as well. despite that USyd is considered a fairly prestigous uni, I dont think it is worth its cost. that is because, despite shelling out loads of money, I will still be considered an international med grad, and as such will be disadvantaged. considering USyd has the highest tuition for a 4 yr program and the city also has a high cost of living, i dont think it is worth it. i will likely still list it as 2nd preference only because there are still not many 4 yr grad entry programs with international spots that exclusively take acer applications.

 

[driedcaribou]

just thought id point out that it doesnt really make sense to say he has 20% chance of getting in simply because 300 applied for 60 spots. that would assume that every applicant is identical and admission is random.

first, you are basicly guarenteed an interview given you pass the mcat and gpa hurdles. the fact that 150 of the 300 applicants did not get interviews says something about the applicants.

secondly, after the mcat and gpa hurdle, the main criteria for admission will be the interview. to think everyone getting an interview has had even similar life experiences or posses similar social skills is absurd.

so i would say the stat is worthless, but i'd also say apply if that is where you want to go.

i also plan to apply 2008 as well. despite that USyd is considered a fairly prestigous uni, I dont think it is worth its cost. that is because, despite shelling out loads of money, I will still be considered an international med grad, and as such will be disadvantaged. considering USyd has the highest tuition for a 4 yr program and the city also has a high cost of living, i dont think it is worth it. i will likely still list it as 2nd preference only because there are still not many 4 yr grad entry programs with international spots that exclusively take acer applications.

Agreed re: the math and stat comment you made and agree re: the cost.

When I started at Sydney Uni, tuition neared 35 k.

Now it is nearing 50 k.

The curriculum, as it stands, is not worth that amount of money. The hurdles it takes to get back to North America are not worth it.

I did well on my USMLE but sadly, not because of the course. If you intend to go to the US to practice, it is probably not your best option. If you intend to be a surgeon, the severe lack of anatomy education will hurt you - not to mention the lack of pharmacology and microbiology...
On the other hand, with the small amount of contact hours per week, you can pursue studies on your own time and make up for the deficiencies.

Sydney is also very expensive as cities go but I don't think you should use that in figuring out where you want to go.....

Ultimately, if you really want to pursue a career in medicine and are willing to work your butt off, where you go is what you make of it. Australia is still a good bet and who knows.... you might like it enough to stay here... but even that is a hurdle.



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So to answer the original poster's question - as long as your MCAT meets their minimum requirements, I almost guarantee that you will get into a program here. But please look at how going here will affect your choice of residency later down the track......

 

[UofTGradStudent]

Thanks for the qualifiers guys...you're right, about not taking the 20% prima facie, however, I was just trying to give the amorato fellow a general scheme of the admissions stats. That's how we do it in Canada. Things like quality of applicants, social and cultural background etc. are not tangible and are not helpful descriptors for someone deciding where to apply.

I think many US-bound students tend to look at the uphill battle of studying for the USMLE and the endowment of foreign status as large obstacles to getting back to the US. They don't differentiate between the US and Canada. Though Canada has traditionally been impasse for the internationals, things are quickly changing.

For Canadians (like you Amorato) intending to make it back to Canada, however, all you have to write is a somewhat easy evaluating exam (MCCEE) and that's it. Several foreign, non-English speakers new to the country and its system have mentioned to me that it's a relatively easy exam. Next, you can try to take advantage of the new policy for Canadians that allows them to apply for competitive or parallel streams within each province for selected residency spots. So, don't let all this 'it's not worth it, it's not worth it' crap bog you down. When you're a full-fledge physician doing what you love and getting paid a 6-figure salary, you'll pay your debts in 10 years and love what you do. Enough said.

Also, many Canadians don't doubt the McMaster medical curriculum and yet it's practically identical (except for being shorter) to the USydMP. They match and move on to great things within the Canadian healthcare system. Like driedcaribou said, you'll obviously have to learn on your own and they teach you that - being a self-directed learner.

The last thing I want to say is that these grad programs ASSUME YOU HAVE A BACHELOR'S! An overwhelming majority who get in already have science backgrounds in physiology, biochemistry, pharmacology, anatomy. Clearly it's not all of them, but the majority. I don't know about you, but I'd rather review all that stuff at night and learn clinical medicine in my day hours.

 

[driedcaribou]

For Canadians (like you Amorato) intending to make it back to Canada, however, all you have to write is a somewhat easy evaluating exam (MCCEE) and that's it.

I really, really think you need to do a bit more research.
Not everyone wants to go into Family Practice and perhaps some people go into med school thinking that's what they want and then change their mind- it's not easy to do that if you go overseas for medical school.

Also, many Canadians don't doubt the McMaster medical curriculum and yet it's practically identical (except for being shorter) to the USydMP. They match and move on to great things within the Canadian healthcare system.

That is a general statement un-qualified by any data. You could say that about any medical school. You could say that about any program in any field.

What you have to look at is what their graduates end up as:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1491608

'The MD program at McMaster University, Hamilton, Ont., differs from that at most other Canadian universities in the profile of students admitted and in its teaching methods. To investigate influences of selection policy outcomes and the education program, the career choices of 408 McMaster graduates were compared with those of 1620 graduates of other Canadian English-language schools by analysis of data from the CMA's Physician Manpower Data Bank. Compared with graduates of other schools, McMaster graduates were more likely to have chosen internal medicine, less likely to have chosen surgery and equally likely to have chosen primary care as their medical field. Of those in primary care, a higher proportion of McMaster graduates than other graduates held certification in family medicine. This was largely responsible for the overall higher rate of certification in the McMaster group. While the nature of practice and time spent on patient care did not differ between the two groups, several variables, including time spent on professional activities other than patient care, proportion involved in research and classroom teaching, and proportion of salaried physicians employed by universities, indicated a higher than average level of interest in academic medicine among the McMaster graduates. This could be partially explained by differences in the student profile if students who are interested in education are more likely to choose an educationally innovative medical school.'

The last thing I want to say is that these grad programs ASSUME YOU HAVE A BACHELOR'S! An overwhelming majority who get in already have science backgrounds in physiology, biochemistry, pharmacology, anatomy. Clearly it's not all of them, but the majority. .

Where are you getting your information from?
I appreciate that you are trying to help people who want to come to Australia for Med School but I am speaking from the view of a Canadian attending a medical school in Australia.

Look, it is good to be positive but please don't put false hopes into people's minds. These grad programs don't assume you have a Bachelor's degree. You need a Bachelor's degree to get in. It is mandatory.

And an overwhelming majority have science backgrounds in the subjects you listed? That is false.
Information directly from the 2005 and 2004 Applicant survey state:

The 2005 cohort had "66% of all applicants and 65% of enrolled students have a science (including medical science) background"
The 2004 cohort had "65% of all enrolled students have a medical science or science background"


I don't think it is obvious you have to learn a lot of material on your own when they advertise the program. Even in traditional programs with a lot of didactic teaching, you have to learn a lot on your own. Except in those programs, the curriculum is clearly defined.

I am optimistic about the Sydney program and I am sure in 3-4 more years, it will be a very strong program but for now, it still has a lot of faults in it.

People who decide to come here have to know what they are getting into.

 

[UofTGradStudent]

Driedcaribou,

Thanks for the note.

I'm hesitant to play cat-and-mouse on forums as I'm really, really busy, but though you made some very good points, on 3 occasions you solidified my premises.

1. Granted the hurdle to get back is still in place as a Canadian, however, you're *not* doomed to fill FM in Saskatoon anymore, you can actually *compete* for IM, Surg, OB/GYN. And what ppl. are forgetting is that you're not competing with 1200 IMGs like it was last year for the 2nd round, but probably a few hundred Canadian citizens who've studied abroad (that includes ppl. like you). Dude, I think you need to be more optimistic and look at the facts. Call CaRMs and you tell me what they told you and the'll say the same thing. I've done my research so please don't give me your sarcasm. Also, relatively speaking, the MCCEE is an easy exam. Take it for what it's worth.

2. Thanks for the abstract, but it was irrelevant. Mac med is 90% PBL format with few didactic lectures, very limited anatomy, and a lot of research available (sound familiar?). Nothing in the abstract tells us of the curriculum, which was my contention. Also, it seems Mac grad grads are more likely to end up in IM vs. FM and surg, which is a great venue so I don't catch your point here. I have 2 friends at Mac and they've related every nuance of the curriculum to me and even showed me their timetables and outlines. I have a good, general idea of what I'm talking about. *Another note - the USydMP has deliberately mentioned that they modeled their curriculum and interview after Mac.* I can cite the sources if need be. And you're incorrect, you *can't* say that about any school.

3. When I meant that the programs assume you have a bachelor's, I took to be equal as a prerequisite. Sorry for not clarifying.

4. 66% and 65% IS the overwhelming majority. Second, just because the remainder may not have had science degrees, doesn't mean they didn't take basic or advanced science courses.

5. You don't need to wait 3-4 years for change, USydMP will be implementing a new curriculum by 2008 intake. A review committee has been assigned the task. You can read it on their website.

6. Ditto on the note about studying on your own irregardless of the program. I think as med students, we got where we are because we've learned to study hard and study independently. You can't trust the school will teach you everything...hence, the HUGE amount of time allocated to 'self-study'.

 

[jaketheory]

Driedcaribou,
...the USydMP has deliberately mentioned that they modeled their curriculum and interview after Mac.* I can cite the sources if need be.

from what i have read, mcmasters was the first med school to introduce the PBL format (1969), afterwhich Harvard reviewed mcmasters' program and later adopted PBL in the 80's.

so, considering mcmasters was the first med school to use pbl, you could say any school that now uses PBL has modeled their curriculum after mcmasters.

 

[driedcaribou]

5. You don't need to wait 3-4 years for change, USydMP will be implementing a new curriculum by 2008 intake. A review committee has been assigned the task. You can read it on their website.

There is a difference between reading something official on a website and a difference between being having inside information about the curriculum review.

I'm not playing cat and mouse games with you. I am providing a more balanced view on this issue. If I wanted to attack you with my 'sarcasm' I would criticize your grammar and haphazard use of words like 'irregardless'.


No matter what you say, you are speaking from an outsider's point of view. Are you actually in the University of Sydney Medical Program? Do you know that the program has been criticized for not having clear objectives for its graduates by the AMC Accreditation Committee?

I never said it was impossible to go back to Canada but I am emphasizing it is unrealistic to think it will not be a problem.

The best post discussing these issues right now is here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=332170


If you don't value my experiences, that's fine with me.

I would not try to sell a car to a friend of mine that I hadn't seen or driven but only heard good things about it from the company selling the car.

 

[UofTGradStudent]

You make a good point caribou and I'm clrearly not undermining your experience. It is, afterall, more important than anything I can say about the curriculum.

However, I have read the ADF review as well as several other association-affiliated reports on the issue and I'm fully aware of both the outside and inside perspectives. I've also read every issue of Innominate, wherein USydMP students have complained about the lack of basic science/anatomy and the lack of direction in the foundation block and other aspects of the curriculum.

PBL has been around long before Mac, it's just that Mac made it the crux of their program which made it stand out.

Do you know that the program has been criticized for not having clear objectives for its graduates by the AMC Accreditation Committee?

As before, I'm aware of this. But you're probably also aware that this is an issue with a vast majority of graduate-entry programs in Australia as well (Melb included). It's a national problem, not a Sydney one only.

There is a difference between reading something official on a website and a difference *between being having* inside information about the curriculum review.

Dude, please don't mention grammar as my weakness. You're not English professor - you're a med student - and it's an informal forum. Besides, you're a hypocrite.

Best.

UofTGradStudent

 

[driedcaribou]

Dude, please don't mention grammar as my weakness. You're not English professor - you're a med student - and it's an informal forum. Besides, you're a hypocrite.

Best.

UofTGradStudent

Congrats, you pointed out my grammatical error which was clearly a typo as opposed to poor diction. You clearly missed my point - I said that if I wanted to attack you, I would make fun of your grammar but that's not the point.
However, you chose to point out my error.


Informal forum or not, I appreciate your rudeness. I didn't have any snide remarks in my original post but your reply did to my comments.

Kudos on your obvious 'social/intellectual skills [that] shine more brightly'!

You make people like me feel welcome for giving advice to people. I'll make sure I spend my time more wisely in the future.

 

[jaketheory]

can't we all just get along?

 

[PT2MD]

Make sure to get 8/8/8/M (even a '7' will disqualify you) on the MCAT as I know ppl. who interviewed were rejected b/c of a '7'. Most people can get that score.

My score was a 25 S. Even 10,8,7 would automatically disqualify you? I have heard this before, but is this rumor or documented somewhere online? I have every intention of retaking, but that does surprise me.

 

[UofTGradStudent]

Driedcaribou,

It's not my intention to insult...in fact it's a bit weird since I felt you were personally attacking me with scathing remarks like 'you should really, really do your research' and 'where do you get this stuff'...and let's not forget the irrelevant comment on my grammar. I am an easy-going guy but I get offended easily. No doubt I'll need thicker skin if I want to be a doctor.

I appreciate your insight (as I've said several times before) and I like the fact that you wanted to level the issue from both sides. Let's just rest agreed that there ARE problems in the curriculum that you and I are painfully aware of and that despite this - and for all future USydMP students - life is what you make of it. And above all, let's hope the faculty realizes this and changes things for the better. I also think we're agreed on the fact that though there are many hurdles in coming back to Canada for residency training, it's still possible and things are looking up when one considers the new policies in place that were absent previously.

In future posts (I see that you're a senior member), avoid sarcasm, like the remarks I indicated above. When I offered advice, I simply answered the question that the original poster had requested, namely, 'How hard is it to get into Sydney Med?'

OK. I won't be posting anymore on this thread. Good luck to you all.

 

[UofTGradStudent]

My score was a 25 S. Even 10,8,7 would automatically disqualify you? I have heard this before, but is this rumor or documented somewhere online? I have every intention of retaking, but that does surprise me.

OK, I lied. THIS is the last time I post since someone asked about what I wrote.

I don't know how strict the faculty is about this, however, I know a good friend of mine who was rejected after interview (she interviewed the same day I did) not because of low interview marks (and obviously not because of GPA - she needed to meet that to get the interview), but because she got a '7' on the PS section of the MCAT. Her rejection was sent immediately following submission of her scores. I also recall the website being gratuitously strict in their wording about meeting the exact cut-offs.

Best case - call them and 2x check. I was in a similar boat with a sub-par VR so I re-wrote to improve my marks while in grad school. Thankfully, it turned out well.

 

[jaketheory]

each school's entry in the 2007 Graduate australian medical school application guide from ACER generally lists an 8 in each section as minimum. a few do not address this, but mostly those are schools which do not as of yet have an international student quota. Uni of Melb minimum is not listed, but i believe their website indicates a 30 as being minimum and they have replied to my emails suggesting around 35 as being comfortable. additionally, Flinders has told me that a 30 would be required for me to be comfortable though there min is 8 in each section.

further, the statements in the guide often use "generally" or "normally" with regards to those minimums so there may be some small give and take. if so, you would likely have to have stellar test score and then to actually be admitted, you would probably need a better than average interview score. but then again, they may stick to those minimums. you'd be better off contacting the admissions offices directly.

 

[haca07]

Well..took me some time to finish reading what two ppl had to say about USydMP ( and other things ).
Don't know whether it's the right thing to say or not. But thank you both for a long discussion. Opened my eyes to the shortfalls of the course. I'll have to find some other ways to compensate for that, if I can..

 

[driedcaribou]

It's not my intention to insult...in fact it's a bit weird since I felt you were personally attacking me with scathing remarks like 'you should really, really do your research' and 'where do you get this stuff'...and let's not forget the irrelevant comment on my grammar. .

No worries- the comment on your grammar was made after your reply on what I thought was an innocent reply on my end.

I was serious about the comment on you doing your research because you were stating what you thought about the program as fact.

You are not attending this program yet and you cannot tell people 'how it is' when you don't know 'how it is'. It is misleading for people about to make a big investment in their lives. I'm sorry that I am being harsh about this but I see a lot of heartache because of misinformation all the time from International students at Sydney.

Some internationals are very successful here and some are not very successful here.

I was also honest with the 'where do you get this stuff' because I honestly do not know any International student who would be that positive about the program at USyd in the way you mentioned or give the advice you have given.

People don't regret their decision to come here because the mature thing to do is to cope with what you've decided.

You will understand when you get here.

I am sorry for offending you as it was not my original intent.

 

[driedcaribou]

Well..took me some time to finish reading what two ppl had to say about USydMP ( and other things ).
Don't know whether it's the right thing to say or not. But thank you both for a long discussion. Opened my eyes to the shortfalls of the course. I'll have to find some other ways to compensate for that, if I can..

Work hard.
Talk to the senior students.
You'll go far.

It can be done. But remember: You're not just paying for the course and living expenses. You're paying over 10k in overseas licensing exams, plane tickets, accomodation for electives etc.

 

[UofTGradStudent]

Hey DriedCaribou,

There were never any hard feelings. I've always respected your opinion. I think that as future physicians, our intentions should rarely gear towards posting ad hominem attacks just so we can achieve some sense of security about our future careers. That's childish. Again, my apologies.

Now, in regards to what people should expect of the Sydney medical program, I agree, your experience is priceless in this regard, but I really don't think you're giving the full picture here. You're no doubt a bit pissed off about some things, but optimistic that things will change for the better, though your cohort may miss out on these amendments. But comments about me being overly optimistic or defensive, not having done my research or downright misleading...haha, that I cannot accept.

I'm really not the kind of person who gets easily swayed. As a grad student in a rigorous program, I've learned that if I'm going to take 1 step, I must be reasonably sure of the next 5. To that end, I've researched and read every web-available AMC accredition report, faculty meeting minutes and curriculum amendments, the recent ADF report, AMSA October issue recommendations, various abstracts in medical education journals, and EVERY issue of the Innominate - USydMP's student magazine. It's actually become quite an obsession. I've also contacted 1 student in Sydney Dent and 3 in the USydMP - all internationals of varying years - and I've concluded the following:

You're right - the curriculum does suffers some setbacks, most notably in the area of anatomy teaching and lack of direction.

Now, what I'm referring to when I note that you're not giving the full picture here, is that VIRTUALLY EVERY PBL-BASED PROGRAM IN THE WORLD HAS NEARLY THE SAME CONCERNS AS THAT OF SYDNEY'S STUDENTS. This includes Harvard's New Pathways medical program (USA), University of Liverpool (UK), University of Newcastle (Australia) and of course, McMaster University (Canada). The reason you - and the thousands of students taking PBL-based medical programs - feel lost at times is that this is a NATURAL reaction to PBL. For instance, an abstract on the pedagogical methods employed in the McMaster program indicates that the majority of students suffer augmented levels of anxiety about their studies, because they don't know how much to delve into the material. This is referred to as the 'discovery' component, which I'm sure many people are aware of. Virtually every document on Sydney's program concurrs with this feature. Futhermore, another characterstic of these programs is that there's ample free time which can worsen the situation, since it adds to the 'what am I doing?' and 'where am I going?' ethos. Ergo, you begin to feel a lack of direction. But to paraphrase a previous poster, 'The [USydMP] faculty rarely remind you what you're supposed to be doing during that free time...STUDYING!' Hit your head on the wall until you can repeat this mantra: 'I'M IN A SELF-DIRECTED LEARNING MEDICAL SCHOOL.'

Another element of these programs is that they're low on anatomical pedagogy, which is a natural by-product of some common PBL-based programs. McMaster's students have the same concerns. Personally, this can and hopefully will change. However, it's a mistake to think that ALL basic sciences are also diluted. Physiology, pathology, and other disciplines are constantly addressed in every PBL theme, which you may (or may not) agree with. Several USydMP students have noted this difference to me. On the other hand, as one international student I spoke with mentioned, if you take out 'options' to supplement your knowledge and do readings on your own time on anatomy and other disciplines (e.g., immunology), then you can easily make for any deficiencies, perceived or real, you may have. Again, it's up to you.

You mentioned AMC's criticisms. To show you that I'm not just a naive optimist and actually, a very involved realist, AMC gave the USydMP an unprecedented accredition tenure IN SPITE of the fact that their recommendations to improve the course are nearly identical to what we've been saying should be addressed. Check it out here:

http://www.amc.org.au/forms/press/USyd Exec Summary & recs only.pdf

In response to these recommendations, check out what the faculty is doing about them:

http://www.usyd.edu.au/learning/planning/facultyplans/2006/progress_report_2005_medicine.pdf

What people also don't understand or are unaware of, is that the large majority of students in the graduate program not only enjoyed the teaching and were overall very satisfied with the course (thus, perhaps putting your experiences in the minority of students), but that both the undergraduate AND the graduate system suffer from a general lack of direction. Check it out on page 31 of

http://www.usyd.edu.au/quality/about/abr_phase_one/medicine_phase_one_rpt.pdf

In response to this, changes have already taken effect. Starting in 2007, there will be required formal assessments after EVERY preclinical block, to help sediment knowledge and to establish guidelines for what students must know. They've also eliminated the long case and are supplementing students with practical checkpoints on information that must be assimilated. No doubt you're very aware of this.

To sum, I know this is a program for me because I've spent the last 2 years essentially doing 'unofficial PBL' and directing every aspect of my learning, whether it's doing independent reading or consulting scientists about research problems. It's been tough not to have someone spoon feed you the information you need to know, but I've learned SO MUCH more because I put in so much effort and experienced the ups and downs myself. In undergrad, I always detested didacted teaching and never learned much from them. I like to go home and read and call up friends to talk about the test/lectures. As a last disclaimer, virtually EVERY student I've spoken to (except for you, perhaps) and the majority of student approval from surveys (posted above) seem to indicate that students thoroughly enjoy the program. I think you need to qualify your statements as being factually true, but your overall opinion to be very much in the minority. And yes, ditto on the note to international students - DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH AND SEE IF THIS PROGRAM IS FOR YOU!

Take this with a grain of salt, again, I'm only an outsider.

Best.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Hey DriedCaribou,

There were never any hard feelings. I've always respected your opinion. I think that as future physicians, our intentions should rarely gear towards posting ad hominem attacks just so we can achieve some sense of security about our future careers. That's childish. Again, my apologies.

Now, in regards to what people should expect of the Sydney medical program, I agree, your experience is priceless in this regard, but I really don't think you're giving the full picture here. You're no doubt a bit pissed off about some things, but optimistic that things will change for the better, though your cohort may miss out on these amendments. But comments about me being overly optimistic or defensive, not having done my research or downright misleading...haha, that I cannot accept.

I'm really not the kind of person who gets easily swayed. As a grad student in a rigorous program, I've learned that if I'm going to take 1 step, I must be reasonably sure of the next 5. To that end, I've researched and read every web-available AMC accredition report, faculty meeting minutes and curriculum amendments, the recent ADF report, AMSA October issue recommendations, various abstracts in medical education journals, and EVERY issue of the Innominate - USydMP's student magazine. It's actually become quite an obsession. I've also contacted 1 student in Sydney Dent and 3 in the USydMP - all internationals of varying years - and I've concluded the following:

You're right - the curriculum does suffers some setbacks, most notably in the area of anatomy teaching and lack of direction.

Now, what I'm referring to when I note that you're not giving the full picture here, is that VIRTUALLY EVERY PBL-BASED PROGRAM IN THE WORLD HAS NEARLY THE SAME CONCERNS AS THAT OF SYDNEY'S STUDENTS. This includes Harvard's New Pathways medical program (USA), University of Liverpool (UK), University of Newcastle (Australia) and of course, McMaster University (Canada). The reason you - and the thousands of students taking PBL-based medical programs - feel lost at times is that this is a NATURAL reaction to PBL. For instance, an abstract on the pedagogical methods employed in the McMaster program indicates that the majority of students suffer augmented levels of anxiety about their studies, because they don't know how much to delve into the material. This is referred to as the 'discovery' component, which I'm sure many people are aware of. Virtually every document on Sydney's program concurrs with this feature. Futhermore, another characterstic of these programs is that there's ample free time which can worsen the situation, since it adds to the 'what am I doing?' and 'where am I going?' ethos. Ergo, you begin to feel a lack of direction. But to paraphrase a previous poster, 'The [USydMP] faculty rarely remind you what you're supposed to be doing during that free time...STUDYING!' Hit your head on the wall until you can repeat this mantra: 'I'M IN A SELF-DIRECTED LEARNING MEDICAL SCHOOL.'

Another element of these programs is that they're low on anatomical pedagogy, which is a natural by-product of some common PBL-based programs. McMaster's students have the same concerns. Personally, this can and hopefully will change. However, it's a mistake to think that ALL basic sciences are also diluted. Physiology, pathology, and other disciplines are constantly addressed in every PBL theme, which you may (or may not) agree with. Several USydMP students have noted this difference to me. On the other hand, as one international student I spoke with mentioned, if you take out 'options' to supplement your knowledge and do readings on your own time on anatomy and other disciplines (e.g., immunology), then you can easily make for any deficiencies, perceived or real, you may have. Again, it's up to you.

You mentioned AMC's criticisms. To show you that I'm not just a naive optimist and actually, a very involved realist, AMC gave the USydMP an unprecedented accredition tenure IN SPITE of the fact that their recommendations to improve the course are nearly identical to what we've been saying should be addressed. Check it out here:

http://www.amc.org.au/forms/press/USyd Exec Summary & recs only.pdf

In response to these recommendations, check out what the faculty is doing about them:

http://www.usyd.edu.au/learning/planning/facultyplans/2006/progress_report_2005_medicine.pdf

What people also don't understand or are unaware of, is that the large majority of students in the graduate program not only enjoyed the teaching and were overall very satisfied with the course (thus, perhaps putting your experiences in the minority of students), but that both the undergraduate AND the graduate system suffer from a general lack of direction. Check it out on page 31 of

http://www.usyd.edu.au/quality/about/abr_phase_one/medicine_phase_one_rpt.pdf

In response to this, changes have already taken effect. Starting in 2007, there will be required formal assessments after EVERY preclinical block, to help sediment knowledge and to establish guidelines for what students must know. They've also eliminated the long case and are supplementing students with practical checkpoints on information that must be assimilated. No doubt you're very aware of this.

To sum, I know this is a program for me because I've spent the last 2 years essentially doing 'unofficial PBL' and directing every aspect of my learning, whether it's doing independent reading or consulting scientists about research problems. It's been tough not to have someone spoon feed you the information you need to know, but I've learned SO MUCH more because I put in so much effort and experienced the ups and downs myself. In undergrad, I always detested didacted teaching and never learned much from them. I like to go home and read and call up friends to talk about the test/lectures. As a last disclaimer, virtually EVERY student I've spoken to (except for you, perhaps) and the majority of student approval from surveys (posted above) seem to indicate that students thoroughly enjoy the program. I think you need to qualify your statements as being factually true, but your overall opinion to be very much in the minority. And yes, ditto on the note to international students - DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH AND SEE IF THIS PROGRAM IS FOR YOU!

Take this with a grain of salt, again, I'm only an outsider.

Best.

Great response!!

 

[driedcaribou]

Hey DriedCaribou,
stuff

Not really your last response is it?

Did you attend the accreditation process?

I did.

Do you realize politically what would happen if USyd got its medschool unaccredited?
Or it's Dental program for that matter?

Do you actually have access or ran surveys that I have about student satisfaction?

I don't want to reveal more at the risk of revealing myself but you're obviously just out to win an argument as opposed to giving people the whole picture. I also don't know why you feel its necessary to make your points stronger using capital letters.

You know, they used to have assessments at the end of every block in the program, but then they didn't, and now they're doing it again. Please, try to find published data on that.

No program in their right of mind would publish negative data about itself. No graduate in their right of mind would publically blast their own training because it discredits themselves.

You haven't added anything to your post- you're just saying the same thing over and over again and so I am.

Have fun at Sydney. Keep that optimism up. Look, it's good to really want to be here but my point is just that I think you are being too optimistic about things.

I wouldn't be here if I thought Sydney was hopeless but for the investment people make, it really has to be a balanced decision. The way your argument goes it really sounds like everything is coming up roses when it's not.

 

[cancerchan]

I promised I'd never post to this silly thing ever again but here I am. Look, to all of you considering Sydney Uni, your mileage may vary. I came here 4 years ago because a friend of mine from the States came here 4 years before me. His experience differed from my experience differed from the other 50-odd internationals per years' experiences. So all you can do is do your research and come out here and do whatever.

Is the curriculum lacking? Of course. Is the curriculum lacking elsewhere? Probably. I've never been to Mac or Harvard or Newcastle. Australian Med Schools are geared to teach you how to become a doctor in an Australian medical system. Don't like the way it doesn't teach you the anatomy/physiology/pathology that you need to do well to get back into Canada? Tough. Don't come here or learn it on your own time. Don't want to pay 50 grand a year plus anywhere from 1500-2000 a month living expenses plus about 10 grand in relocation costs? Don't come here. Got deep pockets, would consider staying out here, or plan on doing a speciality in less high demand back home? Then consider it.

To the dude reading Innominate to get an idea on what Sydney Uni Med School is like: ARE YOU ON CRACK, FOOL? That's like reading Maxim to understand what makes women tick. That's like eating Crunch Berries as part of a nutritious breakfast. That's like... I dunno. But it's pretty silly. You've started med school. Congrats. You got about 4 years to go of being pond scum before you get an idea on what's really going on. And even then, you won't know what's really going on. No one knows what's going on.

And to the guy at Sydney Uni that's been here 4 years and that is on the curriculum review committee: you probably know your stuff and you know what's going on. But ask yourself this. If you were you, 6 months before moving halfway across the world to start med, committed in your head and ready to do this ****, would you listen to some guy that sure, has more experience than you, but hasn't read the same papers and done the same research that you have? Probably not. So let him come out here and experience it all for himself. Maybe he'll succeed and do great. Or maybe he'll be like most of the internationals and be stigmatized and miserable and jonesing to get back home because for some reason they don't like nice weather. You don't know, I don't know, and he doesn't know. But telling him online won't change his mind in the slightest, cause in his mind, he already knows. Which isn't a bad thing. I think. Everyone's got kooky ideas on what things are gonna be like before they do it. It's like this guy just spent 50 grand on a Ford Pinto. Sure, you've been driving the Pinto for 4 years and could tell him that it smells like the food trap in my sink, doesn't take you where you want to go, and has 4 Mexicans under the hood running real fast instead of an actual engine, but hes just shelled out 50 grand and spent hours reading reviews online written by people with a vested interest in making the Pinto look like the best car on the market! Is he really going to listen? Hell no.

Anyways, enough ranting. I do enough of it in Innominate. U of T guy: I still think you're crazy for taking anything you read in that newsletter seriously. Honestly. Read something else. I'll buy you the Time Magazine subscription myself.

 

[jaketheory]

i think cancerchan's post above is above the most spot on regarding this topic ever.

by the way, i think it possible to be very set on doing things and then change your mind. i've been obsessing same as UofT. i havent reading inominate or whatever USyd's med publication is but have read several of UMelb's as well as other aussie school's. is it silly? i wouldnt say so. i was simplying trying to find everything i could about what the med programs were like, and since they were written by med students for med students i thought it could help. and yes, ive read the many journal articles on the transformation of aussie medicine addressing the basic sciences and non-evidence based change. 2 years obsessing. trying to find out exactly what i would have to do to make it back to the US succesful if i couldnt stay in aus. got the overriding impression by the time i finished, they wouldnt be letting me stay so i shifted focus more to getting back to the US. i knew the USMLE would be a major challenge but felt it would be worth the effort to be in aus. however, after searching sdn for info on studying for the usmle for aus students, i got a slap in the face when reading all the aus student's post which sounded like they were in despair as they were studying for the usmle. their aus studies were very deficient for the basic sciences. i woke up and realized maybe this is not a wise choice. i wouldnt mind jumping through hoops and putting in additional effort, but the hoops seem too high and too many. not worth it to me. going to a us school sounds like it would be cake in comparison to going to aus and doing all the things i would have to do to be in a comparable situation upon returning.

 

[UofTGradStudent]

Thanks Millisevert

I thought this was a forum that had a sense of decorum. I was expecting people to respond with comments regarding what I wrote. The only person who came close to that was DriedCaribou and even then, I think he may have not properly ingested what I was trying to convey.

...you're obviously just out to win an argument as opposed to giving people the whole picture.

That's not true. I've done everything in my capacity and with the time available to know what I'm getting myself into and I've related to the forum what some data shows for some other similar programs. The data shows (read the post again, seriously, you're not thinking critically enough) that your experiences are very similar to students in other PBL-based programs. How is that an attempt to mislead? You've only replied, with cancerchan's useless remarks, with jaded, USMLE-bickering, 'I was there, you're weren't' comments, that are not only opinionated but don't actually say anything constructive. You have a lot of experience, perhaps you can say something more to-the-point and be specific about what you like and dislike. This goes for cancerchan as well. You've already mentioned the lack of anatomy. Perhaps you can start from there. I'm honestly interested to hear them as are many people who visit these forums.

I've constantly addressed the problems the program has as it stands. Honestly, I think you need re-read the post. All 4 of my colleagues in the program keep mentioning that anatomy is neglected (~65 hrs, about half of traditional Canadian programs) but they tell me that the educational approach is very well taken and makes learning in context much more memorable and applicable. They in turn, have also related how many of their colleagues really like and dislike the program for the same reason. This is in line with the faculty surveys. My point was that perhaps, your perspective (and cancerchan's) might not be reflective of all international students in the program. I think you both agree with this but you both fail to emphasize that when you make really scathing remarks. I HAVE given a much more complete picture (the capitals are for emphasis). Your perspectives are not the majority.

No program in their right of mind would publish negative data about itself. No graduate in their right of mind would publically blast their own training because it discredits themselves.

Granted you're probably right, but that doesn't mean the data is faulty. This is conjecture on your part and the burden of proof is on you, not me.

You haven't added anything to your post- you're just saying the same thing over and over again and so I am.

Yes, I have. Your disapproval with the program is likely because you were never adept at PBL-based learning from the start and you should've probably never gone to Sydney in the first place. Or perhaps you realized the program substantially lacked in medical trivia so as to create a barrier for you when you began studying for the USMLE, which you've mentioned you excelled in no thanks to the course. Personally, I couldn't care less about the USMLE. Let it be known: If you're going to write the USMLEs, Aussie Schools are generally not the first-rate option to prepare you for them (despite the fact that the Sydney's faculty boasts a 98% pass rate from one of the links I provided above). I don't know what the number of students are who wrote the test however and cannot qualify this statistic further.

Have fun at Sydney. Keep that optimism up. Look, it's good to really want to be here but my point is just that I think you are being too optimistic about things.

Again, I don't think you're acquianted with the ethos of my previous post. You're still just pissed off and ranting again. I'm a mitigated skeptic by nature, but I know hard-line skeptics don't get anything done. Realists with motivation do. I know what I need to work once I get there.

To cancerchan, I thought that some of the whining on Innominate actually helped to credit the magazine as a good place to start? Your best comments were that international student 'mileage may vary'. I've been trying to emphasize that for a very long time but keep getting misinterpreted. However, I honestly can't take you seriously as someone worth debating/discussing with if you're going to make gratuitously infantile remarks. You *sound* more like a snot-nosed highschooler with his pants down to his knees rather than a prospective medical graduate.

If ANYONE thinks that reading faculty surveys, accredition reports, meeting minutes, journal abstracts and consulting colleagues is MUCH LESS useful than taking the remarks of worn-out, insociable, USMLE-vexed international students from an on-line forum, please, let me know.

 

[driedcaribou]

Thanks Millisevert

Dr. Millisevert knows the Dental program well as he is a dental student at USyd and roughly knows the first two years of the Med Program because it's combined with Dent minus the med specific tutorials. He does however, know his anatomy better than the average med because he got to do dissections. And the numerous hands on teaching and ability to treat patients on his own in the dent program puts them much more ahead than med students.

The issues facing an International Dental student are much different than the issues facing the International Med student.

There is a shortage of dentists here and with the expansion of medical schools here which will exacerbate the shortage of training positions here.

Many more issues but I've already gone through them.

I aced the Barrier because I studied for the USMLE and did my PBLs well. I spent two weeks studying for it and took a week off before the exam. And yes, I am cocky about this. I spent that week before an exam which would cover 2 weeks of material watching movies and tv shows. Didn't do much during the year for the course. I didn't start hitting the books until the end of 1st year because I was busy with so many other things.

I also aced the USMLE because I listened to people on the Student Doctor forums and the people in the years senior to me who told me about the course and how it was.

PBL was easy for me- I worked well with my groups. PBL was so useful to everyone in 2nd year that most groups ended up meeting once a week instead of the scheduled mandatory two times a week (three sessions). The material learned in PBL is so light that you can easily cover all the material in 2 weeks on your own and cruise through the rest of the block.

PBL was so useful in 3rd year that the same thing happened as well - you're scheduled to meet twice a week but most groups only met once. In fact, the attendance rate becomes so poor in 3rd year for PBL, you wonder why you bother to stay at the hospital.

This is the local students doing it - not just the Internationals.

You won't find that a report. And I wonder why?

I haven't put any personal attacks in my last post but I can see why they're necessary for you to make them against me if you have to justify your decision to come to Australia.

I'm not sure how you have missed that it's not just the International students that complain about the program. It's the clinicians and the local students as well.

Assessing the quality of information and where you get the information is much more important than just looking for information that fits your hypothesis.

I'm happy with my choice of being here. Despite my strong board scores and my complaints, I might even stay in Australia. The training is twice as long, I might get shipped off to a rural area for 10 years, I might not even get onto a training scheme - but I'm having a good time. But I always know I have a choice and I always know I can count on advice from those before me.

I had an interview at UBC Med - USyd was my first choice - not my second.
My MCATs were great, my resume is great. And I'm here. It would be a great disservice on my part to sell the program to people paying almost 50k a year.

I paid about 35k a year. I had a scholarship. I'm on loans. I've eaten up my life savings. It's expensive to write tests and do electives overseas to get the reference letters you need for residency programs.
If mommy and daddy can pay for people want to come here and buffer all expenses and unknown expenses, then by all means, come here.

I'm not here to change your mind.

I'm here to make sure people know what they're getting into. I'm not here to justify my decision to everyone but for some reason, you seem to be asking for some sort of approval.



cancerchan is right about the fact that your opinion isn't going to change.

But remember: I'm not here posting for you. I'm here posting for people who have yet to make the decision to come here and unfortunately it happens to in conflict with your opinion about what your future experience may be like.

cancerchan is probably one of the most successful International students here and I'm not saying that lightly.

I'll leave you with this though: Do you know what happens to the International Students who are struggling?

They're too busy struggling to have time to post on here and give advice. They're too busy sorting out their own affairs.

 

[ssc396]

To the folks already studying down there - I'm curious - does anyone ever get accepted to a Canadian or American AAMC accredited school and then choose Sydney or some other Australian school?

 

[cancerchan]

In our year:

Didn't stay:

1 (or possibly 2) guys got the entrance scholarship, said no to it because they got in locally.
1 guy got the entrance scholarship, said yes to it, came to Sydney, left 4 months later to go to a top 10 school in the USA.
1 guy came out, hated it so much, left 5 months later and got in the year later into UBC.
1 girl came out, loved it like buggery, but her fiancee was back home and she got into U of T the following year and left.

Stayed:

2 (or 3?) got interviews for the following year locally in Canada, either didn't attend the interview or got in and decided to stay because they were already moved out here.
1 girl got into Mac before she came out and then decided to come out instead of going to Mac because her boyfriend was already in med and she wanted to be with them (they've since separated, but shes happy here)
1 girl got waitlisted to a school in the USA before coming here, but chose coming here over waiting on the waitlist, now loves it, and wants to stay. (I think she found out somehow that she actually did get in back home)
A bunch of people came out here, brought their wives/partners and had kids/got married and immigrated.

So no, that I know of, in my year, out of all the gossip I heard, did anyone definitively get back in at home and come out here, though a whole bunch of people came out here and do stay out here. Who knows. Maybe some did.

Uhhhh. I think that's it. As you can see, it goes across the board. Lots of people do different things.

 

[MrBoo]

If you know what's good for you, listen to driedcaribou.

P.S. I'm a second-year medical student at Sydney and what he has said is entirely correct.

Btw, long cases are back in

 

[UofTGradStudent]

To the folks already studying down there - I'm curious - does anyone ever get accepted to a Canadian or American AAMC accredited school and then choose Sydney or some other Australian school?

I know you have an innocent and valid query but don't you think this is a bit frivolous to ask? Who in their right mind would choose going half-way across the world and pay $50,000 for tuition and living expenses when they are offered a spot that's probably closer to their family and friends and is a fraction of the cost? I've applied to Canadian med schools and if I by some rarity of opportunity am able to secure a position, I'd leave right away. It's not necessarily a comparison of which med school is better, but more of a pragmmatic approach to your decision.

I like the fact I'm getting bullied to accept other peoples' opinions (thank you for that Differentials). To Drieccaribou, your previous post was perhaps the most helpful. I agree, people really do need to know what they're are getting themselves into. I'm sure you agree, this should include both the good and the bad.

The reason I took a while to respond was I wanted to really soak in what people are saying and try to see the other perspective of students already there. People need to know your perspective as well as those of other students. They're filled with a lot of good advice.

There's also other perspectives that are also filled with really good advice. I was PM by an entering 3rd year student who voluntarily shared this information with me. I did not write this myself and I didn't solicit any information from he/she. They solely volunteered it to me very recently:



Hey UofT,

I've been reading the recent threads on this forum with interest.

I'm a local student, and soon to be a 3rd year.

I just wanted to say that although USyd med program isn't ideal, it really boils down to what you make of it.

Driedcaribou is 3/4 way through the program, and has a lot of good advice, but I disagree with his pessimism. For example, he (or she?) likes to bash PBL by saying how light the workload is, but the fact is that each week's PBL is just a little scenario to stimulate your interest and 'set the scene' for the week's learnings. If the case of the week was heart failure, you not only study heart failure, but all the anatomy, physiology, histology etc etc. I can't say what happens in 3rd year, but only about 10-20% of PBL groups in 2nd year met with reduced frequency.

During the first two years of the programme, I made it a point to study 3-4 hours every weeknight, and more in the weekends. The workload is anything but light.

I am very much enjoying the program, and I think that PBL is an awesome way to learn. PBL is much more about generating questions that you later go away and read up on, than it is about actually learning. I mean, the tutors are often there as facilitators (i.e they don't know jack), so you will frequently find yourself discussing answers to the questions you had in the last PBL session.

I'm sorry driedcaribou has so strongly opposed your enthusiasm and excitement. He has some valid points you should take note of, but to be honest with you, I think he/she just can't stand people that are happy and excited.

I think that with your attitude, you have more than what it takes to succeed in the programme.

So keep your enthusiasm - and enjoy the ride.

PM me with any questions you have, and I'd happily answer them for you.

(name omitted for anonymity)


Other perspectives, from a 2004 USydMP local graduate. This time, I solicited this information off another on-line forum. It was in response to 4 main conerns: poor anatomy teaching and little didactic teaching, lack of direction and poor administration. Please listen to this as they may give you the benefit of hindsight:

Hi UofTGradStudent,

Congrats on getting into Sydney. I graduated from its med school in 2004 along with a lot of students from Canada. The main gripes you hear about are pretty repetitive: that there isn't enough didactic teaching, not enough anatomy, and that the course doesn't prepare you for the USMLE. Here are my thoughts, in dot points:

1. The course is aimed at Australians first and foremost, so it's true that you won't be formally coached to pass the USMLE. However, plenty of your compatriots have succeeded in the USMLE despite this. You won't be spoon fed, but you will be able to pass, provided you do a lot of external study to prepare.

2. The course is probably lighter on the didactic teaching than US courses. And yes, it doesn't have a lot of anatomy, nor does it include dissection. Again, the course is designed with Australian grads in mind. No matter how much propaganda you hear, this lack of formal route learning of anatomy has in no way disadvantaged graduates from the Sydney course from pursuing surgical training. A lot of people will scaremonger and tell you otherwise.

3. The course is not a spoon-feeding course. The lack of direction will sometimes frustrate you. I have the benefit of hindsight: that frustration will look like a storm in a teacup by the time you have finished. The course has been running now since 1996 in its current form, and plenty of us who were frustrated as students now look back and see we did just fine.

4. The administrative staff are largely disorganised. Again, this will serve as a frustration, but largely only an annoyance. The positives far outweigh the negatives.

HTH,

(name omitted for anonymity)

A third perspective, this time from an USydMP international student finishing off 1st year. Again, it was in response to similar concerns I had about anatomy, PBL, and everything in between:


HI,
i'm gonna be quick b'c i'm really busy. I'm flying out tomorrow. I'm stoked!!


1. When did you book vacation time for the June break? I'm having my return flight on the Saturday at the end of that week but I'm not sure if I can leave earlier (e.g., Friday?). Altenatively, do you recommend purchasing a return-flight or just a one-way for February start?

I booked a one way so that i could book a return for the June vacation.
Your break starts june 25th to 9th july next year. You could def leave on that Friday before or even thursday. it doesn't matter. if you miss a class or two it's fine. (For example, i extended my vacation and made it for 3 weeks! Oops!) However, you dont need to book your travel now. That's crazy. Just do it when you get here at STA travel or something. The prices will be the same or even cheaper from over here. We've never spent over $1400 US.


2. Some folks on SDN and ValueMD forums are ardant on making the point that the USydMP is very dilute w.r.t. the basic sciences and anatomy. From your experiences, would you agree?

Yes i would agree but if you put in the extra work and take advantage of extra anatomy sessions that are optional or extra biochem, immuno etc options, then you will be fine. Also i had one friend who did 1 semester at Sydney Uni and then started at MacMaster in august b/c he got accepted and he said it's basically the same in terms of amount of anatomy (prosections only) and quality of education etc.

Good luck getting all of your loans and visas together and make the most of the your time with your family this holiday season.

(name omitted for anonymity)

So you see, I'm a big fan of leveling the issue. People have both good and bad experiences. One can only hope that theirs is a good one and that we make the most of it. Of course, I could have devised a masterful plan and wrote all 3 perspectives myself, but I'm a bit more ethical than that I have many others to share but I really don't have the time.

 

[MrBoo]

I like the fact I'm getting bullied to accept other peoples' opinions (thank you for that Differentials).

You're welcome.

Saving you a lot of heartache.

 

[driedcaribou]

To the folks already studying down there - I'm curious - does anyone ever get accepted to a Canadian or American AAMC accredited school and then choose Sydney or some other Australian school?

In addition to what cancerdchan has said:

There's always a few.

One girl who is entering 3rd year (was in 2nd year) got accepted into a Canadian school yet chose to stay here.

A handful usually return... which is the smart thing to do if one intends to practice in North America upon graduation.

A fair number, maybe a quarter to a half of the North American international students do have interviews at LCME schools in North America though....

 

[ElephantDT]

I've read through this forum and its interesting to view people's thoughts on the sydney program, I have just graduated from there as an international and will do by internship up in qld , have taken the usmle am happy how they went(step1=242 + step2=259) and will most likely do ER training in the states or anaesthetics once I decide on what I really want to do..

I agree that there are problems w/ the course but there are problems w/ every course as mentioned.
The whole anatomy arguement is sooooo stupid, by the way if you're concerned w/ the USMLE they test virtually ZERO ANATOMY ON THE TEST .. I'm sure some jackass will say oh no thats not true but trust me on this one....

also anatomy is integrated into medicine in different ways: i.e radiological anatomy, surgical anatomy and surface anatomy.. Sydney does a VERY good cover of the fundamentals of these, besides what the hell are they gonna do hold your hand and take you the anatomy museum or read CT scans w/ you geez!. Once you do your clincial clerkships you realize what is important and what is "trivia" , sydney does a good job of teaching fundamental anatomy. the "trivia" you can fill in , say if you want to be a head& neck dude ..... Sydney takes a lot of time teaching pathophys which is hands down the most important thing to learn as a medical student and a doc. Also pathophys is also the most frequently item tested on the USMLE. Yes I had to do outside studying for those test but I thought Sydney gave me an excellent fundamental base which allowed me to do well on it. I hate listening to internationals bitch about how the course doesn't prepare them, well hey guess what you're in Australia not the U.S and why the hell would they prepare you for a test that they don't Use????? please people don't be jackasses cuz you screwed up the test and blame it on sydney's medical program...

...If you've spent time in a hospital doing a clerkship either in aus or the states (which I've done 4 months) I think sydney does a VERY VERY VERY good job of teaching good fundamental clinical skills that many american medical students lack(again the quality of american med schools vary widly, my experience is from 2 unis in cali) . I have seen students many a time, (in the states) get thrown on the wards, have no idea how to do a physical exam or take a history and then get yelled at by patients and staff.. Sydney does an EXCELLENT job of covering a wide range of medicine than many american universities don't get, we get derm, opthal (although some would say we don't, many american unis get ZERO opthal), ENT(definately need more but again a least we can use an otoscope w/ out perfing someone). Plus our degree goes all the way through 4 years and doesn't stop/slow down @ 3 years after we match.
Yes going to sydney as an international is a risk and you have to consider the rising cost(it was a bargin when I went) vs the benefits. If you stuff up the USMLEs or the canadian exam that could set you back big time, however if you do work hard put the time in, do some rotations in the states and get letters "no worries " ..

 

[driedcaribou]

The whole anatomy arguement is sooooo stupid, by the way if you're concerned w/ the USMLE they test virtually ZERO ANATOMY ON THE TEST .. I'm sure some jackass will say oh no thats not true but trust me on this one.....

Excellent points but nothing you have said contradicts anything I wrote.

If you have the money to fly over to the US repeatedly, pay for accomodation, pay for electives, and get your letters, yea, no worries.
I barely have the finances to do my electives.

The anatomy argument, if you noticed, is for local students in the program wanting to get into local training schemes.

Have fun surfing in Queensland.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

If you scan the faculty website properly, it will tell you what GPA you need on a North American scale to qualify, its a 2.7, which is much lower than any US or Canadian school. I can't think of any school in the US who will not trash your application if your GPA is less than 3.5. I am at UQ, I got into Sydney as well but turned them down because its harder to stay in Australia if you went to school in NSW or Victoria. They take a wider range of students than a US school. Its a bit harder to get into than a Caribbean school but not as hard as a US, Canadian, or British(no UK school takes any N American with less than a 3.5 and a sterling record of volunteer service) medical school. I think Australia offers an adequate enough preparation for the USMLE but its a longer path than the Caribbean.

I scanned the web, the most common Aussie grads in the US come from Flinders, they seem to share residencies with other IMGs, often Caribbean grads. This is the best Australian school in the eyes of American PDs. So going to Sydney or UQ does not mean that you are going to the Harvard and Hopkins of foreign schools. People will assume you went abroad because you could not cut it in the US, so the stigma still applies. I worked as a lab assistant for a year in the most prestigious cancer hospital in New York City and there were two Caribbean grads who were working there as physicians. Its really up to you. I think Australia is good, but anyone talking it up that its better than other foreign schools is full of ****.

That being said, living in Australia is nothing like the US or Canada, in some ways Oz is 30 years behind especially in social terms. Coming from a minority background there is a lot of underlying racism in Australia, not kidding about this. There was a scandal that involved a doctor from the US to happened to be of Indian origin, the media has been beating this to death. Its strange that when a few white UK doctors were in similar trouble no one peeped a word. When I mentioned the part of the USA I came from a few Aussie students made some comments that were blatantly racist. You will find more than a good number of Australians are living in the British colonial era, its not the politically correct North America that most Americans and Canadians now live in today.

I'm not alone in this racism thing:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10117740

 

[UofTGradStudent]

I think you may have some valid points however, you seem to be ignorant of the Australian grading system. First of all, the perfect GPA for many Aussie schools, that is, 7 out of 7, scales to 80% for NA uni/college. That's like saying, in North American standards, anyone who scores 80% gets a perfect 4.0, which is clearly not the case, at least for most Canadian schools. I have a few colleagues there who tell me that getting a high GPA ('Distinction') is very tough. I know Sydney and Melb require a 5.5 (UQ: 5.0) and this is supposed to equate to a B+ (what most NA applicants apply with to US/Canadian schools), however, when our GPAs are calculated, they end up being something in the range of 6.5-6.7 on a 7.0 scale... a near PERFECT GPA!

Check out:

http://www.study-australia.com/index.php?id=147

http://australearn.org/programs/studyabroad/au/edusystem.htm

It's not that the academic standards are low, it's that the scale works exceptionally in favour of North American applicants.

There is a caveat, however, as I believe the MCAT cut-offs could be higher (USyd/UQ: 8/8/8/M). It was higher in previous years.

Actually, getting into Aussie schools is MUCH harder than getting into carib schools. I applied to 3 Carribean schools (SGU, AUC, MUA), got into all 3 with crappy MCAT marks, 2 schools with no interviews required, and one with the most frivolous interview process ever, and my degree was incomplete. I got a 50% tuition waiver scholarship for all 4 years from SGU - the alleged 'Harvard' of the Caribbean (indeed, if such an allegory exists) but decided against it. I have since opted to increase my MCAT marks and finish my degree. That is not to say that Carib schools doesn't produce good doctors. Remember, be critical - I'm bashing the admissions process, NOT the curriculum. With some exception, I really believe you can teach medicine anywhere in this globalized society we live in.

The Indian doctor who has been stigmatized in the media was banned from US practise, and came to Queensland to practise a few years ago. I read several articles some time ago about this case. He is being sued for the wrongful deaths of over 120+ patients because of unsanitary practice, rash decision-making, electing to do unnecessary surgeries, and really bad medical advice. In fact, nurses often kept their patients away from him. So, in this regards, I think it's LESS of a racism issue, and more of legitimate claims. That is not to say racism doesn't exist in Australia. Some US students have noted the anti-US remarks made by faculty. I read in one blog that a faculty member called a student 'negro' and was often disposed to berating the American lifestyle, healthsystem, and perceived arrogance.

One must remember that the flood of immigration is more of recent phenomenon in Australia. The US has been a land of immigration for over a century. Australia - try the past 20-30 years. This is to add perspective only, not to justify racism.

Racism exists everywhere on every continent, whether blatantly outward or in the mind.

Apparently, they love Canadians.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I am African American but I am just trying to put things in perspective. I have noticed female students have become more interested in me, that is racism in a way but in a sort of positive way. Still its racism. I have seen other situations. Australians see themselves as part of Asia, which I think is absolute nonsense, I have a few Japanese friends who have said horrible things about Australians including their racist tendencies. How can Asians be excluded or feel excluded in Asia??? I have definitely seen some blatant examples of racism in Australia and unfortunately at my medical school. When I went to the USyd interview I got an extra questionnaire asking if I felt my interviewer was "biased".

Regardless, getting into an Australian school is not as difficult as a US program. A lot of local students wonder why North Americans like me are there, so many assume we are rejects. The bar is lowered for international students, its a well known joke in my school that we are paying everyone else's fees. An MCAT of a 24 will get you an interview but most people I know had in the range of 26 to 28. Yes its more selective than a Caribbean school where anyone with a pulse can get in, but that being said, its not as hard to get into as a US or Canadian program. British programs are also far more difficult for North Americans to get admission.

 

[UofTGradStudent]

Ditto on what you've posted JoeNamaMD. I hear the racist situation is slowly seeing some light, as immigration markedly changes the demographics and Australia goes through some growing pains before they realize, heck! We're made up of 30-50% other minorities!

The girl scenario - could that be because of your rugged good looks? I think some people are just fascinated with new things and new people.

I keep thinking that North Americans need to feel justified and accomplished by getting into a Canadian or US med school, seeing as how the bar is set high and it's tough to get into these schools. You can exude confidence in yourself, or so one thinks, and feel a real sense of significance, if, and only if, your friends and family know you got into the medical schools of University of Toronto, Penn State, McMaster, or Albert Einstein. I was (and am partially) one of those students.

But let's be a bit pragmmatic, shall we? Ask yourself this: in 10 years from now, will you be in the slightest way different in your ability to communicate, treat, and develop a long-lasting treatment regimen and patient confidence in you as their healthcare provider if you graduated, say, from a Caribbean school? How about an Australian school? How about the worst school in the US? The fact of the matter is, with some exception, it rarely depends where you graduate. I turned down the Caribbean, not because I won't get a good education (it's practically American in every nuance), but based my decision on other factors. I know the minute ANY medical graduate completes residency and the plethora of licensing and medical/clinical exams in Canada, US, Australia, or the UK, regardless of whether they graduated from Harvard, Cambridge, Toronto, St. George's, or Melbourne, they'll be highly trained, competent doctors.

All I'm saying is that whether the admissions bar is set too high or too low for your liking, this should not be a concern to you or anyone else. This is a tenuous and trivial matter that, in hindsight, will inarguably be a cause for you to laugh or feel foolish for ever having thought it could've influenced your ability to become a doctor.

If one needs to become accepted into a medical school that is difficult to gain acceptance from in order to feel important, then one's committment to a medical career is shallow and based more on pride then a real academic and vocational calling. Pride does nothing but taint and destroy the facts.

Enjoy your time in QLD, study hard, and make the most of it.

 

[Hollycozza]

Accusing Australians of racism on the basis of media coverage of the horrible case of Dr Jayant Patel is a bit rich.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/General/The-scandal-of-Dr-Death/2005/05/27/1117129900672.html

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Back to the topic... I feel that a student with a 3.0 or better and an MCAT in the high 20's would have a good chance of securing an interview at USyd. There is someone from Sydney who scored in the 30's and claims that they got a scholarship, so a 30 range MCAT is high for Syd. I knew an American who got into Sydney with a 26MCAT, though there are some with much higher scores. This stat is similar for those applying to grad med at UWa and Queensland, accepted applicants had MCATs ranging from 26 to 32 with 28 being the mean. I have known people who have gotten into Griffith and UOW with 24s. Flinders and Melbourne are the most selective, most competitive applicants there have a 3.3 GPA and an MCAT of around 32. When I spoke to Tony Edwards he said a competitive North American would have a 3.2-3.3 and an MCAT of 32-33 not a 30, you need to have better than a 30 to have a chance of getting into Flinders, although he said a higher GPA could offset that. Flinders and Melbourne are the hardest programs, while the newer schools like Griffith and UOW are the easiest.

There are about 60 spots for internationals at Sydney, far more than Flinders or Melbourne, which are known as the two best medical schools in Australia.

UOW has a sort of British type of admission system, they look heavily into your past volunteer activities for evidence of a commitment to rural medical practice. Their admissions office even says that they are heavily biased to students interested in rural practice in Australia. Part of the application asks for a portfolio detailing volunteer, community service, and research experience that gives evidence that the applicant is interested in rural medical practice.

Going to Australia as an international medical student is a financial gamble, a very big one, you cannot immigrate with a medical degree, so Australia is not an option if you do not get a residency in the USA, making your medical degree a mere decoration. This is one of the most messed up points of Australia, a student in beauty school can get more than enough points as a potential hairdresser but a medical student will more than likely leave, this in a first world country with a severe shortage of doctors. I personally saw this when I went to the ER at the Royal Brisbane Hospital where only two doctors, one an intern and the other a junior registrar, were on call. I did not see a single consultant(an attending in the US) and this is the best hospital in Brisbane.
If your goal is the US, a big Caribbean program might be a better choice because of US clinicals and a USMLE oriented curriculum, the prestige of an Australian degree over any other foreign school including the Caribbean is dubious. I know quite a few students at European schools in the UK and Ireland who look at Australia the same way some Australian med students look at the Caribbean. Israeli medical schools are another proven path to the US, most Israeli schools have been very open about the types of residencies their North American grads obtained, while it has been silence from virtually every faculty in Australia. There are also far more Irish North American grads in US residency programs than Australians, Ireland kept their medical curriculum according to the old system, so the basic sciences are more complete than in Australia. PBL sucks and I spend a lot of extra time doing reading on my own.
Sydney costs nearly 50K Australian for a year, living costs are another 30K Australian, do the math.

 

[UofTGradStudent]

Back to the topic... I feel that a student with a 3.0 or better and an MCAT in the high 20's would have a good chance of securing an interview at USyd. There is someone from Sydney who scored in the 30's and claims that they got a scholarship, so a 30 range MCAT is high for Syd. I knew an American who got into Sydney with a 26MCAT, though there are some with much higher scores. This stat is similar for those applying to grad med at UWa and Queensland, accepted applicants had MCATs ranging from 26 to 32 with 28 being the mean. I have known people who have gotten into Griffith and UOW with 24s. Flinders and Melbourne are the most selective, most competitive applicants there have a 3.3 GPA and an MCAT of around 32. When I spoke to Tony Edwards he said a competitive North American would have a 3.2-3.3 and an MCAT of 32-33 not a 30, you need to have better than a 30 to have a chance of getting into Flinders, although he said a higher GPA could offset that. Flinders and Melbourne are the hardest programs, while the newer schools like Griffith and UOW are the easiest.

There are about 60 spots for internationals at Sydney, far more than Flinders or Melbourne, which are known as the two best medical schools in Australia.

UOW has a sort of British type of admission system, they look heavily into your past volunteer activities for evidence of a commitment to rural medical practice. Their admissions office even says that they are heavily biased to students interested in rural practice in Australia. Part of the application asks for a portfolio detailing volunteer, community service, and research experience that gives evidence that the applicant is interested in rural medical practice.

Going to Australia as an international medical student is a financial gamble, a very big one, you cannot immigrate with a medical degree, so Australia is not an option if you do not get a residency in the USA, making your medical degree a mere decoration. This is one of the most messed up points of Australia, a student in beauty school can get more than enough points as a potential hairdresser but a medical student will more than likely leave, this in a first world country with a severe shortage of doctors. I personally saw this when I went to the ER at the Royal Brisbane Hospital where only two doctors, one an intern and the other a junior registrar, were on call. I did not see a single consultant(an attending in the US) and this is the best hospital in Brisbane.
If your goal is the US, a big Caribbean program might be a better choice because of US clinicals and a USMLE oriented curriculum, the prestige of an Australian degree over any other foreign school including the Caribbean is dubious. I know quite a few students at European schools in the UK and Ireland who look at Australia the same way some Australian med students look at the Caribbean. Israeli medical schools are another proven path to the US, most Israeli schools have been very open about the types of residencies their North American grads obtained, while it has been silence from virtually every faculty in Australia. There are also far more Irish North American grads in US residency programs than Australians, Ireland kept their medical curriculum according to the old system, so the basic sciences are more complete than in Australia. PBL sucks and I spend a lot of extra time doing reading on my own.
Sydney costs nearly 50K Australian for a year, living costs are another 30K Australian, do the math.

I sometimes wonder why I waste my time on this silly forum replying to ignorant posts. I guess it's becoming a method for some people to exercise catharsis or some self-initiated psychotherapy.

I really think you should go about re-reading my earlier post, wherein I mentioned IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE ADMISSIONS CUT-OFFS ARE, TO SOME DEGREE, AS MUCH AS HOW YOU EXCEL AND DO ON BOARD SCORES AND CLINICAL PERFORMANCE. You seem to be quite fixated on mentioning the lower cut-offs of Aussie schools since you spent another paragraph continuing the redundant discourse. Perhaps you need to feel proud like many NA students that you were among the 10% of students who got a 3.9 GPA and 37R MCAT scores and got into Rosalind Franklin or Case Western.

While I agree with some things you mentioned, particularly about the financial investment being way too big for an int'l student coming to Australia for med school, I think you're making some really ignorant remarks. First of all, landing a US residency has less to do with where you went to med school and more about your USMLE Step scores. Granted the carib programs have a much better track record in this because they're essentially diploma mills that are meant to graduate students into the American system to meet the 50% residency vacancy unmet by US local students. That's not to say they don't prep you well to become a doctor. Again, you can teach pre-clinical basic medical science almost anywhere nowadays.

Second, you confuse 'prestige' with the ability of a program to land its grads into US residencies. Really, since when was that the correct definition? That's a really, really ignorant claim. As a matter of fact, prestige has more to do with history, tradition, and opportunity. In that sense, Australian schools, e.g., Melb, Sydney and ANU, are way more presigious than Carib schools. The two are not even on the same page.

I agree, Carib schools may be easier for those US-bound, simply b/c they're geared to prep you for the USMLEs and the US clinicals. BUT, even so, even if you have great ref letters, and ace your school exams but BOMB your USMLEs, good luck getting anywhere. I could attend Oxford, Harvard, Stanford, or Washington U and get a perfect 4.0/Distinction but do poorly on my USMLEs, I'm heading for the gutter. Sydney boasts a 98% pass rate from its NA grads and a colleague from an earlier post (see above) mentioned that the USydMP prepared him really well in getting the fundamentals to study for the USMLE. I bet you forget to mention that. *For the most part* it doesn't matter where you go, your board scores are the great equalizer. Period.

For those few Canada-bound, this is not true. Most Canadian PDs have never or rarely dealt with Carib grads. In fact, if you tell them you went to SGU 'the harvard of the Caribbean', they'll probably laugh at you. Actually, I know a Flinders grad who related how on several occasions, residency PDs have mentioned that they 'prefer commonwealth students'. It's very different from the US, where they're used to Carib grads. A family friend and GP was also excited to hear I got into Sydney as she has several colleagues who are working in her clinic who are USyd alums. This is consistent with statements from another poster, pattycanuck in the Ireland forums, wherein he mentioned that 2 USyd grads nailed residencies in Queen's U - one in FM, the other in orthopaeds. The fact that annual Canadian medical seminars are held frequently in Sydney and Melb may be one of the reasons many Canadian clinicians are open or amicable to Aussie grads - developing a cultural familiarity, no doubt. One of my 8 interviewers for the USyd application process was a USyd grad who is now a clinician-scientist at UBC, one of the hardest provinces to land a place to work in as an IMG. In summary, it is much easier to enter Canada as an Aussie grad vs. a Carib grad. At the moment, Canada is fundamentally discriminatory againt Carib grads. The new policies in place this year, however, may see more Carib grads applying for Canadian residencies. We'll just have to wait and see.

Correction: Sydney and Melb are the two oldest, largest, and most well-know Aussie schools (ANU may be placed here as well). Flinders is one of the newer schools (est. 1966, do your research). USyd, Melb and ANU ranked in the top 20 in the THES rankings and USyd won the most research grant $$$ this year, 12 million dollars more than any Australian university. That is generally a big stat when calculating rankings. Take it for what its worth. I really don't want to get into a bout about school reputation, as these tend to be distastefully long, trite discourses.

 

[UofTGradStudent]

Back to the topic... I feel that a student with a 3.0 or better and an MCAT in the high 20's would have a good chance of securing an interview at USyd. There is someone from Sydney who scored in the 30's and claims that they got a scholarship, so a 30 range MCAT is high for Syd. I knew an American who got into Sydney with a 26MCAT, though there are some with much higher scores. This stat is similar for those applying to grad med at UWa and Queensland, accepted applicants had MCATs ranging from 26 to 32 with 28 being the mean. I have known people who have gotten into Griffith and UOW with 24s. Flinders and Melbourne are the most selective, most competitive applicants there have a 3.3 GPA and an MCAT of around 32. When I spoke to Tony Edwards he said a competitive North American would have a 3.2-3.3 and an MCAT of 32-33 not a 30, you need to have better than a 30 to have a chance of getting into Flinders, although he said a higher GPA could offset that. Flinders and Melbourne are the hardest programs, while the newer schools like Griffith and UOW are the easiest.

There are about 60 spots for internationals at Sydney, far more than Flinders or Melbourne, which are known as the two best medical schools in Australia.

UOW has a sort of British type of admission system, they look heavily into your past volunteer activities for evidence of a commitment to rural medical practice. Their admissions office even says that they are heavily biased to students interested in rural practice in Australia. Part of the application asks for a portfolio detailing volunteer, community service, and research experience that gives evidence that the applicant is interested in rural medical practice.

Going to Australia as an international medical student is a financial gamble, a very big one, you cannot immigrate with a medical degree, so Australia is not an option if you do not get a residency in the USA, making your medical degree a mere decoration. This is one of the most messed up points of Australia, a student in beauty school can get more than enough points as a potential hairdresser but a medical student will more than likely leave, this in a first world country with a severe shortage of doctors. I personally saw this when I went to the ER at the Royal Brisbane Hospital where only two doctors, one an intern and the other a junior registrar, were on call. I did not see a single consultant(an attending in the US) and this is the best hospital in Brisbane.
If your goal is the US, a big Caribbean program might be a better choice because of US clinicals and a USMLE oriented curriculum, the prestige of an Australian degree over any other foreign school including the Caribbean is dubious. I know quite a few students at European schools in the UK and Ireland who look at Australia the same way some Australian med students look at the Caribbean. Israeli medical schools are another proven path to the US, most Israeli schools have been very open about the types of residencies their North American grads obtained, while it has been silence from virtually every faculty in Australia. There are also far more Irish North American grads in US residency programs than Australians, Ireland kept their medical curriculum according to the old system, so the basic sciences are more complete than in Australia. PBL sucks and I spend a lot of extra time doing reading on my own.
Sydney costs nearly 50K Australian for a year, living costs are another 30K Australian, do the math.

I sometimes wonder why I waste my time on this silly forum replying to ignorant posts. I guess it's becoming a method for some people to exercise catharsis or some self-initiated psychotherapy.

I really think you should go about re-reading my earlier post, wherein I mentioned IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE ADMISSIONS CUT-OFFS ARE, TO SOME DEGREE, AS MUCH AS HOW YOU EXCEL AND DO ON BOARD SCORES AND CLINICAL PERFORMANCE. You seem to be quite fixated on mentioning the lower cut-offs of Aussie schools since you spent another paragraph continuing the redundant discourse. Perhaps you need to feel proud like many NA students that you were among the 10% of students who got a 3.9 GPA and 37R MCAT scores and got into Rosalind Franklin or Case Western.

While I agree with some things you mentioned, particularly about the financial investment being way too big for an int'l student coming to Australia for med school, I think you're making some really ignorant remarks. First of all, landing a US residency has less to do with where you went to med school and more about your USMLE Step scores. Granted the carib programs have a much better track record in this because they're essentially diploma mills that are meant to graduate students into the American system to meet the 50% residency vacancy unmet by US local students. That's not to say they don't prep you well to become a doctor. Again, you can teach pre-clinical basic medical science almost anywhere nowadays.

Second, you confuse 'prestige' with the ability of a program to land its grads into US residencies. Really, since when was that the correct definition? That's a really, really ignorant claim. As a matter of fact, prestige has more to do with history, tradition, and opportunity. In that sense, Australian schools, e.g., Melb, Sydney and ANU, are way more presigious than Carib schools. The two are not even on the same page.

I agree, Carib schools may be easier for those US-bound, simply b/c they're geared to prep you for the USMLEs and the US clinicals. BUT, even so, even if you have great ref letters, and ace your school exams but BOMB your USMLEs, good luck getting anywhere. I could attend Oxford, Harvard, Stanford, or Washington U and get a perfect 4.0/Distinction but do poorly on my USMLEs, I'm heading for the gutter. Sydney boasts a 98% pass rate from its NA grads and a colleague from an earlier post (see above) mentioned that the USydMP prepared him really well in getting the fundamentals to study for the USMLE. I bet you forget to mention that. *For the most part* it doesn't matter where you go, your board scores are the great equalizer. Period.

For those few Canada-bound, this is not true. Most Canadian PDs have never or rarely dealt with Carib grads. In fact, if you tell them you went to SGU 'the harvard of the Caribbean', they'll probably laugh at you. Actually, I know a Flinders grad who related how on several occasions, residency PDs have mentioned that they 'prefer commonwealth students'. It's very different from the US, where they're used to Carib grads. A family friend and GP was also excited to hear I got into Sydney as she has several colleagues who are working in her clinic who are USyd alums. This is consistent with statements from another poster, pattycanuck in the Ireland forums, wherein he mentioned that 2 USyd grads nailed residencies in Queen's U - one in FM, the other in orthopaeds. The fact that annual Canadian medical seminars are held frequently in Sydney and Melb may be one of the reasons many Canadian clinicians are open or amicable to Aussie grads - developing a cultural familiarity, no doubt. One of my 8 interviewers for the USyd application process was a USyd grad who is now a clinician-scientist at UBC, one of the hardest provinces to land a place to work in as an IMG. In summary, it is much easier to enter Canada as an Aussie grad vs. a Carib grad. At the moment, Canada is fundamentally discriminatory againt Carib grads. The new policies in place this year, however, may see more Carib grads applying for Canadian residencies. We'll just have to wait and see.

Correction: Sydney and Melb are the two oldest, largest, and most well-know Aussie schools (ANU may be placed here as well). Flinders is one of the newer schools (est. 1966, do your research). USyd, Melb and ANU ranked in the top 20 in the THES rankings and USyd won the most research grant $$$ this year, 12 million dollars more than any Australian university. That is generally a big stat when calculating rankings. Take it for what its worth. I really don't want to get into a bout about school reputation, as these tend to be distastefully long, trite discourses.

 

[mdphddermo]

Back to the topic... I feel that a student with a 3.0 or better and an MCAT in the high 20's would have a good chance of securing an interview at USyd. There is someone from Sydney who scored in the 30's and claims that they got a scholarship, so a 30 range MCAT is high for Syd. I knew an American who got into Sydney with a 26MCAT, though there are some with much higher scores. This stat is similar for those applying to grad med at UWa and Queensland, accepted applicants had MCATs ranging from 26 to 32 with 28 being the mean. I have known people who have gotten into Griffith and UOW with 24s. Flinders and Melbourne are the most selective, most competitive applicants there have a 3.3 GPA and an MCAT of around 32. When I spoke to Tony Edwards he said a competitive North American would have a 3.2-3.3 and an MCAT of 32-33 not a 30, you need to have better than a 30 to have a chance of getting into Flinders, although he said a higher GPA could offset that. Flinders and Melbourne are the hardest programs, while the newer schools like Griffith and UOW are the easiest.

There are about 60 spots for internationals at Sydney, far more than Flinders or Melbourne, which are known as the two best medical schools in Australia.

UOW has a sort of British type of admission system, they look heavily into your past volunteer activities for evidence of a commitment to rural medical practice. Their admissions office even says that they are heavily biased to students interested in rural practice in Australia. Part of the application asks for a portfolio detailing volunteer, community service, and research experience that gives evidence that the applicant is interested in rural medical practice.

Going to Australia as an international medical student is a financial gamble, a very big one, you cannot immigrate with a medical degree, so Australia is not an option if you do not get a residency in the USA, making your medical degree a mere decoration. This is one of the most messed up points of Australia, a student in beauty school can get more than enough points as a potential hairdresser but a medical student will more than likely leave, this in a first world country with a severe shortage of doctors. I personally saw this when I went to the ER at the Royal Brisbane Hospital where only two doctors, one an intern and the other a junior registrar, were on call. I did not see a single consultant(an attending in the US) and this is the best hospital in Brisbane.
If your goal is the US, a big Caribbean program might be a better choice because of US clinicals and a USMLE oriented curriculum, the prestige of an Australian degree over any other foreign school including the Caribbean is dubious. I know quite a few students at European schools in the UK and Ireland who look at Australia the same way some Australian med students look at the Caribbean. Israeli medical schools are another proven path to the US, most Israeli schools have been very open about the types of residencies their North American grads obtained, while it has been silence from virtually every faculty in Australia. There are also far more Irish North American grads in US residency programs than Australians, Ireland kept their medical curriculum according to the old system, so the basic sciences are more complete than in Australia. PBL sucks and I spend a lot of extra time doing reading on my own.
Sydney costs nearly 50K Australian for a year, living costs are another 30K Australian, do the math.

Sydney is higher ranked than University of Toronto (top school in Canada or so they say) which my relative attends, and is ranked higher than Melbourne and other aussie schools (based on top 100 medical school rankings by two independent researchers). Personally I think Sydney is about the same as Melbourne with the others farther behind.

Its one thing to get an interview and another to get in. Also, having the minimum cut offs does NOT guarantee an interview especially with the politics involved in medical schools on top of the matter of the sheer number of applications.

I have a Ph.D, an M.Sc, great MCATS (higher than 30), tons of extracurriculars and a very high GPA in both undergrad (A) and grad (A+). I had plenty of interviews at high ranked Canadian schools (including UofT - which sucks at interviews along with Ottawa and McMaster. Sydney by far is stellar and professional in its interview approach) along with a lot of action in the US. I didnt even get the scholarship at Sydney! I know for a fact that there are as good or possibly better applicants to Sydney

However, I know people with lower GPAs (3.5-3.6) even with extremely low MCATs (ie 5 or 6 on verbal etc) getting in to the "amazing" schools here in Toronto and Canada, same goes for the US (even 2.9 you can get into private schools with $$$).
Helps to have connections...if you have lower marks.

If people think getting into Sydney is a joke, there are going to be in for a surprise. Also the interview is vital, if you are not up to it you arent going to get in even with a 4.0

 

[JoeNamaMD]

I was accepted at both Sydney and Queensland, I go to the latter. I did not mean to knock down Australian schools, they are some of the best in the world. Regardless, it is generally easier for internationals to get admission than for locals. The range of students in the international pool varies greatly. I have known quite a few North Americans who were not academic superstars that were admitted to several graduate entry programs in Australia. Once you meet the cutoff GPA, the faculty weighs your interview and MCAT, at least UQ does this. I applied to several British and American schools, got waitlisted at an American medical program and then rejected.
One thing I would like to make clear is that I am actually interested in remaining in Australia after graduation, Australia is as good as it gets, I wasn't definite about it but now I am certain. I just recently came back to the States for a holiday break and already I feel like have returned to the land of insane. I think Australia is literally a paradise on Earth and I have lived all over the world. I kicked myself to make sure I wasn't dreaming. Australian schools emphasize medical practice in Australia with an angle towards the Asia Pacific region. Anyone who is not hiding under a rock realizes that this region of the world is soon going to overtake North America and Western Europe as the center of human development. There is a very low likelyhood that America is going to be the scientific and industrial marvel that it was from the end of WW2 to the year 2000 in the next two to three decades.
For your information Sydney, Melbourne, and Queensland, all rank among the top medical schools in the world. The best one in the Asia Pacific region is the National University of Singapore. Increasing globalization is drastically changing our planet, I find it absolutely exciting.
To be honest, anyone thinking that the life in the US is going to continue to improve is smoking some seriously mind altering drugs, thanks to all the ultra right wing nutters its on its way to obscurity. The 21st Century is going to be an Asian century, not an American one.
Realistically a lot of locals think its a bit odd to go to an Australian medical school in order to work in the USA.

 

[driedcaribou]

Sydney is higher ranked than University of Toronto (top school in Canada or so they say) which my relative attends, and is ranked higher than Melbourne and other aussie schools (based on top 100 medical school rankings by two independent researchers). Personally I think Sydney is about the same as Melbourne with the others farther behind.

Those rankings are based on research (among some other things).
It's useless to look at rankings if you don't look at what criteria they are looking at.

Are there studies that show graduates from which schools make more money at the end of a day? Which graduates produce better patient outcomes? Which graduates produce better patient satistfaction?
I'd say a definite no to the latter two which are more important anyhow.



Toronto is smelly anyways - I'd go to Sydney over Toronto anyday.

 

[jon stewart]

If you scan the faculty website properly, it will tell you what GPA you need on a North American scale to qualify, its a 2.7, which is much lower than any US or Canadian school. I can't think of any school in the US who will not trash your application if your GPA is less than 3.5. I am at UQ, I got into Sydney as well but turned them down because its harder to stay in Australia if you went to school in NSW or Victoria. They take a wider range of students than a US school. Its a bit harder to get into than a Caribbean school but not as hard as a US, Canadian, or British(no UK school takes any N American with less than a 3.5 and a sterling record of volunteer service) medical school. I think Australia offers an adequate enough preparation for the USMLE but its a longer path than the Caribbean.

QUOTE]


I have been wondering for a while how a equivlaent US gpa would be to the aussie cut offs, which are something like 5.5/7? If indeed a 2.7 or 3.0 is the equivalent, that is rather stange to me beacause yea, its rather low for a US school. Does anyone know for sure though, i have been researching this for a while and no one seems to know for certain how aussie med schools deal with US gpas? Its hard to decide beacause unless i know what my gpa is in terms of aus schools i dont know if i am competitive or not?

If it is this low, then am i supposed to interpret it as a good thing? or bad? idk, it just seems wierd that its rather low...

How did you get into UQ and sydney, i thought you got interviewed at one school, and that school could accept/reject you?

 

[jon stewart]

I think you may have some valid points however, you seem to be ignorant of the Australian grading system. First of all, the perfect GPA for many Aussie schools, that is, 7 out of 7, scales to 80% for NA uni/college. That's like saying, in North American standards, anyone who scores 80% gets a perfect 4.0, which is clearly not the case, at least for most Canadian schools. I have a few colleagues there who tell me that getting a high GPA ('Distinction') is very tough. I know Sydney and Melb require a 5.5 (UQ: 5.0) and this is supposed to equate to a B+ (what most NA applicants apply with to US/Canadian schools), however, when our GPAs are calculated, they end up being something in the range of 6.5-6.7 on a 7.0 scale... a near PERFECT GPA!

Umm so a 3.0-3.4 will lead to a 6.0-7.0 in the aussie systerm? Is this a fact, are these the actual numbers that come out when the aussie med schools look at your US gpa and do the math??

It seems really stange, and i am confused cause it seems rather high, someone explain to me why it doesnt add up??


If this is the case, then it looks like a very good deal for me. Just letting you know my sitaution, im a junior majoring in Bio at a US undergrad school, i am an Autralian Citizen, which means that when i apply i am required to take the GAMSAT. So am i correct is saying that i have a decent shot if i graduate here with a U.S. Gpa around a 3.5, and i get a gamsat that meets the cutoffs for whatever school that i would be interested in the time i apply?

I have had a terrible time with my visa restricitons here and its made it difficult for me to apply here in the states, if you want further clarification i will be willing to post my hurdles.

I little more background, i lived in sydney for 11 years, and since i am a citizen, i will be pulled with local applicants, correct? So if i came back from the states, i have all my buddies from year 7-10, good freinds of my parents, lots of connections essentially. Plus as a ctizen i would be eligible for non-intl tution and i can get hecs, austsudy maybe?

Man, it just seems weird with the gpa conversion, im still in disbelief, is this for real??????????? are you guys sure???

 

[jon stewart]

bump, anyone?

 

[Hollycozza]

Then again if you're applying as a local applicant and competing for a HECS place the grade requirements, and even application process might be quite different.

I'm a vet student (and Aussie) at Sydney uni, and the requirements as a local student were totally different than for international applicants (eg we did a standardised test (the STAT) and generally went through a different process).

I'm not sure how it works with med though.