How good is my step 1 score for radiology?

[nima123]

Hey guys,

I just got my USMLE score. It's 244 [was aiming for 250 but got little sleep the night before the test ]. The results report a mean of 221 and a SD of 23.

Are these results good enough to get a spot in a radiology program with good reputation? Should I take Step 2?
(Note: I'm a Canadian student but we can enter the same match as US grads).

Thank you.

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[docmd2010]

not very. these days the average score is a 272.

 

[gluon999]

not very. these days the average score is a 272.

Yes, I concur. You should just give up all hope of matching into rads.

I would start thinking about some other specialty that is less competitive.

Seriously though, your score is fine, you should match alright if everything else in your app is okay.

 

[igottaquestion]

well, i think for most programs nowadays 245 is the cut-off the score . . . below which they request additional compensation for having wasted the secretary's time in opening your application. so don't waste your time OR money.

 

[nima123]

well, i think for most programs nowadays 245 is the cut-off the score . . . below which they request additional compensation for having wasted the secretary's time in opening your application. so don't waste your time OR money.

This answer was gonna be my worst nightmare! Folks, is this true?
Should I write step 2 then?

 

[Labslave]

This answer was gonna be my worst nightmare! Folks, is this true?
Should I write step 2 then?

Dude(ette): You're more than fine. I'd be more concerned about the fact that you're Canadian, eh.

 

[nitecrawler]

This answer was gonna be my worst nightmare! Folks, is this true?
Should I write step 2 then?

me thinks you know you have a good score and are here for others to pat you on the back for receiving it. well. good job.

 

[nima123]

me thinks you know you have a good score and are here for others to pat you on the back for receiving it. well. good job.

umm...no! I'm interested in an uber competitive specialty and just wanna know where I stand.

 

[igottaquestion]

umm...no! I'm interested in an uber competitive specialty and just wanna know where I stand.

Well, to put in terms even a hoser can relate to: you're no Wayne Gretzky, but you're no Steve Buzinski either . . . um, "eh."

 

[HamOnWholeWheat]

Radiology is not that competitive. There's ~1000 spots. You'll match somewhere if you're not socially maladjusted. The top programs have their choice of applicants though, and yes some programs do have crazy high cutoffs (for example: AOA status, 250, rads publication). Just apply and interview broadly and you'll be fine.

 

[rogershru2]

You'll be fine if the rest of your application is decent, and you don't say "eh" or "aboot" too many times during the interview. Just apply to a ton of programs and you'll get somewhere. My score was just below yours and I got a well-known program.

 

[scudrunner]

Well, to put in terms even a hoser can relate to: you're no Wayne Gretzky, but you're no Steve Buzinski either . . . um, "eh."

lol, I haven't heard (or thought of) the term hoser in a very long time.

 

[AK_MD2BE]

It always amazes me how my fellow medical students have no concept of how to utilize the previous NRMP match statistics and post "how are my chances?" when their score is above the average...oh well.

 

[Entgegen]

It always amazes me how my fellow medical students have no concept of how to utilize the previous NRMP match statistics and post "how are my chances?" when their score is above the average...oh well.

I don't know...I can see how there'd be some anxiety since they're not a US grad.

 

[AK_MD2BE]

I don't know...I can see how there'd be some anxiety since they're not a US grad.

Touche...I didn't read the fine print about him/her not being a US grad.

 

[Gute]

Touche...I didn't read the fine print about him/her not being a US grad.

He's Canadian which really isn't an IMG, despite technically being "international". Those med schools are viewed as US equivalents.

Its like saying the Toronto Blue Jays aren't equivalent to the Atlanta Braves. There's no problem unless he can't get a us work visa (shouldn't be a problem for pretty much any Canadian medical student).

 

[PistolPete]

If he wants an H1-B, it might be a little difficult. Many hospitals will not sponsor them.

 

[PAN627]

I have the same question except I don't have a 244 in step 1. I'm an IMG from a Caribbean school/ US citizen rank 1 step 1 229/95 and step 2 247/99. I was planning applying to about 60-70 programs. Is that broad enough?

 

[DrRads101]

He's Canadian which really isn't an IMG, despite technically being "international". Those med schools are viewed as US equivalents.

Its like saying the Toronto Blue Jays aren't equivalent to the Atlanta Braves. There's no problem unless he can't get a us work visa (shouldn't be a problem for pretty much any Canadian medical student).

The fact that he is from Canada will absolutely hurt him in the US application process, I have no doubt about this after going through all the interviews, matches, and residency. He isn't on equal footing like in baseball, sorry. I'm sure he'll match somewhere, I have no doubt about that, but when a US program has a US applicant and a Canadian applicant of equal weights, they will choose the US applicant every single time.

 

[jpro]

Hey guys,

I just got my USMLE score. It's 244 [was aiming for 250 but got little sleep the night before the test ]. The results report a mean of 221 and a SD of 23.

Are these results good enough to get a spot in a radiology program with good reputation? Should I take Step 2?
(Note: I'm a Canadian student but we can enter the same match as US grads).

Thank you.

This has to be a joke. If you really got a 244 then you should know where one SD above the mean puts you. In other words, you don't stand a chance.

 

[wheewer]

Now in 2016, I've heard that demand for spots in radiology is going down and the field is becoming less competitive. What kind of Step 1 scores do you suggest one may need to get into programs like Columbia and Cornell? How are those programs regarded in the radiology world? Thanks.

 

[haloschief]

Now in 2016, I've heard that demand for spots in radiology is going down and the field is becoming less competitive. What kind of Step 1 scores do you suggest one may need to get into programs like Columbia and Cornell? How are those programs regarded in the radiology world? Thanks.

Still extremely competitive for top programs including those 2. The field is self selective. 250+ with decent amount of honors at least

 

[qwerty89]

Still extremely competitive for top programs including those 2. The field is self selective. 250+ with decent amount of honors at least

Yes. People also need to realize that while there were plenty of SOAP spots last year (there will be less this year), Rads is regarded to be the "best of whats left" in the SOAP. Plenty of derm/surgical subspecialty applications who foolishly did not apply to a backup specialty out of the gate will be unhappy on Monday of Match Week and have to SOAP. Those strong applicants typically take those Radiology SOAP spots, not necessarily bottom of the barrel candidates. Despite being unmatched these are not poor candidates. Radiology programs actually get outstanding candidates in the SOAP. After all, how did radiology still maintain a 240 step 1 average despite the drop in applications?

Harbor-UCLA had to take 2 unmatched candidates last year. Must have gotten a bottom of the barrel IMG or DO right? Nope, one was from UCSF.

Just keep this in mind when you are on other subforums and people say that because OBGYN had no spots in the SOAP last year and Rads had a ton that OBGYN is more competitive than Rads. Its not. Psychiatry had less spots than Rads, anyone want to say that its easier to match *at a given caliber program* than Rads? Don't think so.

Edit: Jesus Christ this was a necrobump

 

[deleted564680]

Yes. People also need to realize that while there were plenty of SOAP spots last year (there will be less this year), Rads is regarded to be the "best of whats left" in the SOAP. Plenty of derm/surgical subspecialty applications who foolishly did not apply to a backup specialty out of the gate will be unhappy on Monday of Match Week and have to SOAP. Those strong applicants typically take those Radiology SOAP spots, not necessarily bottom of the barrel candidates. Despite being unmatched these are not poor candidates. Radiology programs actually get outstanding candidates in the SOAP. After all, how did radiology still maintain a 240 step 1 average despite the drop in applications?

Harbor-UCLA had to take 2 unmatched candidates last year. Must have gotten a bottom of the barrel IMG or DO right? Nope, one was from UCSF.

Just keep this in mind when you are on other subforums and people say that because OBGYN had no spots in the SOAP last year and Rads had a ton that OBGYN is more competitive than Rads. Its not. Psychiatry had less spots than Rads, anyone want to say that its easier to match *at a given caliber program* than Rads? Don't think so.

Edit: Jesus Christ this was a necrobump

I get what you are trying to say and agree with it in terms of strong applicants but just so you know, there are DOs with 260s and UCSF grads with 220s or whatever. I don't know if I'd use "UCSF grad" as a full proof support.

 

[Radiologyreviews2015]

I get what you are trying to say and agree with it in terms of strong applicants but just so you know, there are DOs with 260s and UCSF grads with 220s or whatever. I don't know if I'd use "UCSF grad" as a full proof support.

If anything that's even more concerning if programs are going with a 220 ucsf over a 260 DO

 

[qwerty89]

I get what you are trying to say and agree with it in terms of strong applicants but just so you know, there are DOs with 260s and UCSF grads with 220s or whatever. I don't know if I'd use "UCSF grad" as a full proof support.

Many (if not most) programs would rather take the UCSF grad with 230 step 1 vs the DO with 265. Therefore my point was that even a lower-tier rads program (albeit in a very competitive location) can get "more desirable" candidates.

I say this as a grad of a mid-tier allopathic school with a mid 220s step 1 who got interviews last year at many of those places he was rejected.

At my intern year I have seen the applicant bios and ALL DO applicants have had >250 step 1 whereas the allopathic grads have had step 1s as low as mid 210s. Doesn't mean that the 210-220 step 1 guy is a competitive candidate but it says alot that they were invited to interview.

 

[deleted564680]

Many (if not most) programs would rather take the UCSF grad with 230 step 1 vs the DO with 265. Therefore my point was that even a lower-tier rads program (albeit in a very competitive location) can get "more desirable" candidates.

I say this as a grad of a mid-tier allopathic school with a mid 220s step 1 who got interviews last year at many of those places he was rejected.

At my intern year I have seen the applicant bios and ALL DO applicants have had >250 step 1 whereas the allopathic grads have had step 1s as low as mid 210s. Doesn't mean that the 210-220 step 1 guy is a competitive candidate but it says alot that they were invited to interview.

I know it's true.. it's just not right. It's the only thing I can think of where a person is essentially not judged by what they just did. Who cares that you destroyed medical school and killed the boards, we want the guy who had a great undergrad record (as evidence by UCSF vs. DO admissions).
That would be like saying hey I know you sucked it up in the minors but wow your high school stats were amazing. Welcome to the major leagues.
I've never understood that. Some people are late bloomers.

 

[Radiologyreviews2015]

I know it's true.. it's just not right. It's the only thing I can think of where a person is essentially not judged by what they just did. Who cares that you destroyed medical school and killed the boards, we want the guy who had a great undergrad record (as evidence by UCSF vs. DO admissions).
That would be like saying hey I know you sucked it up in the minors but wow your high school stats were amazing. Welcome to the major leagues.
I've never understood that. Some people are late bloomers.

It's risk aversion. Given the lack of correlation between step 1 and residency performance, I'm not surprised. The average UCSF graduate will outperform the average DO graduate. Same reason PDs are more likely to interview candidates from medical schools their current residents come from.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but from a PD's perspective it makes sense.

 

[futureradres12345]

It's risk aversion. Given the lack of correlation between step 1 and residency performance, I'm not surprised. The average UCSF graduate will outperform the average DO graduate. Same reason PDs are more likely to interview candidates from medical schools their current residents come from.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but from a PD's perspective it makes sense.

Agreed, DO's are stuck in a catch 22 where they are an unknown quantity because there are so few of them at elite programs and there are so few of them at elite programs because they are an unknown quantity. Regardless of Step I score, a student who manages to pass all classes and graduate from UCSF has proved themself "good enough" for quality residency programs. On the other hand, if you accept a DO with a 270 on step I, you don't really know what you're going to get. Program directors are risk averse because it is their ass on the line if they accept a resident who is a total screwup.

 

[deleted564680]

That's true but we're talking about the average/below average UCSF grad vs. the top DO students. At some point this will end up as a discrimination lawsuit now that the residencies are merged.

And look, I totally get it. But, after seeing DO schools, MD schools, and ACGME/AOA residencies all in separate ways, there's not as much difference between MD and DO as program directors would like to believe. The major difference is research and you can debate on whether or not that's meaningful for most physicians anyway.

There are just as many MD posts on here complaining about bad 3rd and 4th year rotations as there are on the DO side (one of the other reasons PDs state they are wary of DOs is rotations).

I foresee a group of DOs seeking a subspecialty filing a lawsuit sometime after 2020 when the ACGME programs still refuse to accept/interview DOs.

 

[Radiologyreviews2015]

That's true but we're talking about the average/below average UCSF grad vs. the top DO students. At some point this will end up as a discrimination lawsuit now that the residencies are merged.

I'm not sure there's lawsuit potential. Discrimination suits are usually linked to race/gender/orientation and even then they're hard to prove. People with more prestigious academic backgrounds benefiting with more lucrative jobs is essentially a societal norm.

Not familiar with the merger, but haven't read anything implying that prohibits discrimination against DOs. What about scenarios where a UCSF graduate gets a position via match or SOAP over a lower tier medical school graduate.

 

[deleted564680]

I agree it would be hard. I just think it will happen at some point.

 

[chronicidal]

Doctoral degree type is not a protected class.

 

[wheewer]

Thanks for your input. I figured Columbia and Cornell would be that competitive. What do you think about Yale? Thanks

 

[WilliamofOckham]

On the other hand, if you accept a DO with a 270 on step I, you don't really know what you're going to get. Program directors are risk averse because it is their ass on the line if they accept a resident who is a total screwup.

You don't?

While it's possible to pull a 270 out of one's hat, generally speaking, that kind of score indicates strong ability to learn and master the preclinical curriculum.

I'm not really sure what kinds of qualitative differences are present between a rotation at UCSF and a rotation at a hospital where DO students rotate.

 

[deleted564680]

Thanks for your input. I figured Columbia and Cornell would be that competitive. What do you think about Yale? Thanks

Yale is not high upper tier competitive for rads. You can interview with 235-240 as an MD and 245-250 as a DO. Maybe even less. They take 3-4 IMG/FMG every year (not saying they arent stellar ones but they do take them).

You don't?

While it's possible to pull a 270 out of one's hat, generally speaking, that kind of score indicates strong ability to learn and master the preclinical curriculum.

I'm not really sure what kinds of qualitative differences are present between a rotation at UCSF and a rotation at a hospital where DO students rotate.

Supposedly, the upper level you go in academia, the more the medical students "see" but honestly I think in our modern education, all medical students are not getting good rotations. I've heard just as many people at Michigan, Hopkins, and Duke complain about not being able to do anything as I have DOs in community hospitals.

On average though, MD rotations are far superior to most DO schools rotations and I say this as a DO. I was lucky that my DO school was established and had good sites.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Thanks for your input. I figured Columbia and Cornell would be that competitive. What do you think about Yale? Thanks

The people at my school only got invitations from Cornell if they had a Step 1 >= 250 and were AOA. Small sample size though.