All Branch Topic (ABT) How good are you (and your colleagues) at generating RVUs at the MTF?

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flightdoc09

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I feel many people, even those that have been in a long time, don't understand the importance of billing and generating RVUs. I personally hate it, but that's how the bean counters determine productivity of an MTF or clinic. I have seen clinics that see very little volume have so much extra staff it's ridiculous, while other clinics that see more volume are understaffed and barely keeping their heads above water. The difference is one was exceptional at billing for every little thing (lots of FM trained docs there), where as the other hardly billed anything other than the standard visit.

I don't know why I'm posting, other than perhaps to encourage you to take a little more interest in billing and coding if you aren't already. It'll eventually help you, and help out those that come after you. And it's not that hard once you learn a few basic things about it.

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Waiting to see the “official new way” the beans are counted. For the last few years DHA only cared about number of encounters. Still the way our templates are built in a high volume specialty at a large GME MTF. Now it seems they are shifting back to RVU/productivity.
 
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The RVU system in MHS is a dumb. Fire the coders. Stop dedicating any time to "coding correctly". Don't code anything. Lazy people will be lazy no matter what.

Clinics get more support if they generate more RVUs? Ha! I've heard that it happens. Never saw it actually happen. Clinics that were "in the red" got help. Clinics "in the green" got ignored, at best.
 
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I 'member when my little MTF gamed the bean counting system by scheduling wisdom teeth extractions and vasectomies in the main operating room to inflate the OR utilization numbers. Boy oh boy, there were some FITREP bullets to be had there! There were some medals awarded and I'm pretty sure we got some people promoted to O5 on the strength of halting the decline in caseload and turning that place around!
 
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How do you generate RVUs without patients? Some of our MTFs/clinics are ghost towns.

I was in Pensacola visiting the naval hospital a few months ago. Holy moly what a ghost town. So sad as it used to be a real hospital with interns and residents and everything.
 
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I was in Pensacola visiting the naval hospital a few months ago. Holy moly what a ghost town. So sad as it used to be a real hospital with interns and residents and everything.

Add to that list Naval Medical Center San Diego, Portsmouth, and Walter Reed.
 
The last I heard, they (DHA) couldn't figure out how to actually count RVUs correctly. CPT codes were being applied incorrectly or not at all in some ridiculously high number of encounters/cases.

You would think with an EHR based on a commercial product that capture of accurate workload data would be part of the baseline package, but that's not the case.

If they use it alter funding and civ manning (GS and CTR), it will be painful until/unless the numbers are actually remotely accurate.
 
I was in Pensacola visiting the naval hospital a few months ago. Holy moly what a ghost town. So sad as it used to be a real hospital with interns and residents and everything.
Within the last ~10 years they spent a fortune at Pcola renovating both the ICU and OR suite. To become dust bins.
 
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I 'member when my little MTF gamed the bean counting system by scheduling wisdom teeth extractions and vasectomies in the main operating room to inflate the OR utilization numbers. Boy oh boy, there were some FITREP bullets to be had there! There were some medals awarded and I'm pretty sure we got some people promoted to O5 on the strength of halting the decline in caseload and turning that place around!
Have eye-witness experience with a large MTF renovating their combination preoperative holding area / PACU to add a truly state of the art endoscopy procedure room literally around the corner, 10 steps away. Within three months of usage, the order came down from above to stop using it, and to henceforth do all EGDs/c-scopes in an OR. This hospital’s OR suite being conveniently located several minutes walking time from the PACU 🙄

Why, someone might ask?

Since the new endoscopy suite wasn’t an official “OR” it’s utilization and productivity wasn’t captured by the surgical schedule system. Only work done in an official OR counted.

Let’s ignore this waste of tax-payer money, increased turnover time between scopes, and horrible endoscopist ergonomics doing scopes in a traditional OR.
 
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Within the last ~10 years they spent a fortune at Pcola renovating both the ICU and OR suite. To become dust bins.
Didn't the FM residency program there close in 2013? Why would they add those facilities if they were axing the only residency program they had?

Never mind, it's no use asking questions...
 
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Just like how DHMRSi gets us more staffing
Ahaha, memories. For DHMRSi, our department administrative assistant filled it out for everyone, documenting 8 hours per day 5 days per week.

A triumph of timekeeping!

I think ours was the only department that never got on the hitlist.
 
My second year out of residency, I was told I was the fourth highest “producing” ENT provider in the entire DoD, including major MTFs. They based this on RVUs. They even used it as an argument not to close the hospital (which at the time was a possibility). They also gave me a spreadsheet that showed that they weren’t coding for half of what they should have. It also showed what I would make as a civilian based upon MGMA standards per wRVU. I don’t know why they did that, as it seems like that would just make providers feel even less appreciated. In any case, they indicated that if I had been in private practice I would make about 65% of what I currently make now as a civilian. And if I recall they even included costs for insurance and malpractice IN that imaginary salary (which was 65% of what I make not NOT including insurance and malpractice which I don’t pay for out of my pocket).

So I’m not sure they even know what they’re talking about when they do record RVUs.

It’s like my dog asking me to track how many calories I feed him. It’s relevant to his health, but he has no idea what it means.
 
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Ahaha, memories. For DHMRSi, our department administrative assistant filled it out for everyone, documenting 8 hours per day 5 days per week.

A triumph of timekeeping!

I think ours was the only department that never got on the hitlist.
Wow memory lane indeed. My guy kept filling it out even when I was elsewhere for 6 months. Oh the panic that ensued when the other place couldn't input me because i was still working exactly 8 hours a day 5 days a week at the old place.
 
As stated above, milmed pads their RVU numbers in the OR with BS cases like pain and endoscopies and they still fall woefully short of real civilian hospitals.

I saw a patient today who had surgery at the local MTF and was coming to see me because his surgeon’s schedule was “too busy” to get him in after surgery. Who does that?!

I’ve heard first hand from Tricare patients that the military ENTs see 10-12 patients/day. Absolutely indefensible. The fleecing of America and the institutionalizing of these surgeons.

They have no chance in the real world outside the VA/GS system.
 
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Ahaha, memories. For DHMRSi, our department administrative assistant filled it out for everyone, documenting 8 hours per day 5 days per week.

A triumph of timekeeping!

I think ours was the only department that never got on the hitlist.
I filled mine out one time 2 months in advance and got a stern phone call from whoever is in charge of that thing.
 
As stated above, milmed pads their RVU numbers in the OR with BS cases like pain and endoscopies and they still fall woefully short of real civilian hospitals.

I saw a patient today who had surgery at the local MTF and was coming to see me because his surgeon’s schedule was “too busy” to get him in after surgery. Who does that?!

I’ve heard first hand from Tricare patients that the military ENTs see 10-12 patients/day. Absolutely indefensible. The fleecing of America and the institutionalizing of these surgeons.

They have no chance in the real world outside the VA/GS system.
Ahh, there it is. I was waiting for the derogatory post against military physicians who voluntarily accepted lower pay and lower volume/complexity to receive a scholarship and serve their country for a while.

Nobody thinks MilMed does it right but the system is the system and it is there for a very specific purpose. Up until DHA came along cost, RVU’s, efficiency were barely an afterthought. Now at least we understand our limitations and are trying to figure out a way to make it work while still focusing on our primary mission which is an operational ready medical force and/or humanitarian/peacetime relations medical force.

Skill sustainability is at the forefront of areas that need to be improved to have the effective force listed above. The backbone of that is the right volume, complexity and clinic/OR management to make it possible. This is still a work in progress. Fortunately the pitfalls are at least acknowledged as opposed to ignored the way they used to be when I joined and most of you were early/mid career.

Currently retention is abysmal and the application pool (at least that comes through my interviews) is average at best. Although nationwide patriotism, satisfaction and sense of purpose/duty is at an all time low so I am not surprised. None of this is the fault of your average MilMed physician. They are just receiving the collateral damage from everything discussed in this thread.
 
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Ahh, there it is. I was waiting for the derogatory post against military physicians who voluntarily accepted lower pay and lower volume/complexity to receive a scholarship and serve their country for a while.

I don't know, I didn't really see anything derogatory about the physicians there, except maybe the one guy who dumped his post-op care (?!?) on the network. Which is weird, but maybe he was deploying? Ordered TAD? I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Also, to nitpick a little, while we all went in eyes open about the lower pay and the service bits, I'm not so sure if I'd agree that new HPSP joins really have any idea what the caseload implications of service are, and how that inflicts long term damage upon their ability to be good doctors. And how the low caseload used to be a minor thing, easily overcome with some effort and maybe a bit of moonlighting - but is now a near insurmountable problem for most proceduralists who are essentially obligated to devote a significant amount of liberty and leave to ODE. Which many commands still discourage or make difficult.

Volume - at least complex, sick, old volume - has cratered in the last decade. When I joined in the 90s the Navy MTFs had respectable cardiac surgery programs. NMCP and San Diego quit doing hearts about six years ago and those programs are. Never. Coming. Back. I remember doing craniofacial cases on kids when I was a resident at Portsmouth.

Skill sustainability is at the forefront of areas that need to be improved to have the effective force listed above. The backbone of that is the right volume, complexity and clinic/OR management to make it possible. This is still a work in progress.

One of my deepest concerns has long been that even with the right leadership and policies, there may not exist sufficient volume and complexity to claw back into the MTFs. Getting back to cardiac surgery - when I retired from the Navy it was understood that even with 100% capture of all eligible beneficiaries in Portsmouth's catchment area, there weren't enough hearts to sustain two cardiac surgeons. The only thing to be done there was pay our two cardiac surgeons to go TAD to work for Duke (for free) for months at a time... but that deal didn't include anesthesia, OR nurses, ICU staff, residents or anyone else that relied on or benefited from a cardiac surgery program.

When it comes to skill growth and maintenance, I saw few meaningful efforts and zero meaningful results in the last 10 years of my Navy time. Plenty of flag officers doing town halls, waving their hands, telling us they "get it" and are working on it. But the only functional solution I ever saw to any piece of the problem was increasing the number of out rotations for our residents. For now, our residents still get decent to good training, in most specialties, largely on the backs of civilian programs who accept them as visitors. But there's no RRC-equivalent to lean on the Navy to fix the same problem for attendings.

The inescapable truth is that for the last 20 years milmed leadership has been content to burn through junior people to man operational units (obviously the top priority for milmed), while doing nothing to ensure the long term viability of the system.

Fortunately the pitfalls are at least acknowledged as opposed to ignored the way they used to be when I joined and most of you were early/mid career.

I think they're still being ignored and I think every milmed flag officer in every branch should be immediately relieved.

Currently retention is abysmal and the application pool (at least that comes through my interviews) is average at best. Although nationwide patriotism, satisfaction and sense of purpose/duty is at an all time low so I am not surprised. None of this is the fault of your average MilMed physician. They are just receiving the collateral damage from everything discussed in this thread.
I agree with all this - don't really blame the physicians on active duty at all, except the ones wearing stars.

And I say that, knowing a couple current flag officers, knowing that they're good people. One was a teacher and mentor to me for nearly 20 years. But the ship they're driving is aground and the engines are revving at flank speed to grind the ship further up the reef.

They, and other DOD leaders, and Congress (to the small extent that those subject matter not-experts are clued in by DOD leaders to what's going on) have leaned on patriotism and sacrifice to recruit and retain people. The dirty secret is they've let themselves believe that patriotism and a bit of money paid to debt-averse students would be sufficient, and that they didn't really need a world class healthcare system after all ...

And maybe they don't, to staff operational units and a handful of deployable trauma units. Maybe the real tragedy here is that the cynics and beancounters are right, and we don't need a top notch system to provide adequate wartime support to combatants.

In any case, there really isn't money for a world class healthcare system bolted onto the military any more - this isn't the pre-1989 Cold War. So why are we pretending we can still do it?

Their biggest sin has been pretending the system could continue to exist as-is without a fundamental overhaul and change of how the military gets its medical support. Their lack of vision and courage to effect the needed changes is what I can't forgive. No one denies the challenges. Their failure to meet them with decisive and bold action is where the shame lies. And I got sick, sick, sick of listening to them talk about KSAs and ERSAs and NTTC/Penn and other such nonsense.


The solution is an all-reserve force, with every MTF folded into the VA system. Operational units staffed in garrison with civilians who are paid market rates, plus reservists doing their weekend/two-week thing. Deployed operational units staffed with reservists.

Abandon the quaint notions that (a) there's some magic of "critical institutional knowledge" that will be lost between wars without a huge active medical corps, and (b) that the current system of churning through junior clinicians while retaining senior administrators would actually retain such capability if it existed in the first place (it doesn't).


I'll hold my breath while the kings (flag officers) decide to ask DOD and Congress to dissolve their kingdoms (MTFs) because the whole thing is obsolete and there's a better way to meet modern defense challenges than this failing pale shadow of a 40-year-old Cold War model.
 
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I'm not so sure if I'd agree that new HPSP joins really have any idea what the caseload implications of service are, and how that inflicts long term damage upon their ability to be good doctors.
Almost all applicants that come through me bring it up and ask about it without prompting. For the few who don’t I bring it up to make sure they understand the implications
 
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Their biggest sin has been pretending the system could continue to exist as-is without a fundamental overhaul and change of how the military gets its medical support. Their lack of vision and courage to effect the needed changes is what I can't forgive. No one denies the challenges. Their failure to meet them with decisive and bold action is where the shame lies. And I got sick, sick, sick of listening to them talk about KSAs and ERSAs and NTTC/Penn and other such nonsense.


The solution is an all-reserve force, with every MTF folded into the VA system. Operational units staffed in garrison with civilians who are paid market rates, plus reservists doing their weekend/two-week thing. Deployed operational units staffed with reservists.

Agree here but one of the mains reasons we don’t have good solutions today (after years with DHA) is because the operational units (the line side) aren’t willing to give up having their active duty “docs” at their beck and call. They purchased billets leaving huge gaps for efficient functioning of the MTF.

They’re working on it. Most residencies are shifting/shifted to straight through. The bean counting is improving and getting up to speed with modern tech but we are short coders and other admin. The money and contracts are coming as we consolidate locations but still severely deficient.

But agree, it’s not the best from a business and practice perspective but there are early financial and lifestyle benefits. MilMed is at least stagnant if not moving in a positive direction with potential for pay increases still possible. The civilian side has their own problems depending on the location while reimbursements decline and cost of education increases.

Pick your battles but as we discussed, usually it isn’t the physician that is the problem in MilMed.
 
My second year out of residency, I was told I was the fourth highest “producing” ENT provider in the entire DoD, including major MTFs. They based this on RVUs. They even used it as an argument not to close the hospital (which at the time was a possibility). They also gave me a spreadsheet that showed that they weren’t coding for half of what they should have. It also showed what I would make as a civilian based upon MGMA standards per wRVU. I don’t know why they did that, as it seems like that would just make providers feel even less appreciated. In any case, they indicated that if I had been in private practice I would make about 65% of what I currently make now as a civilian. And if I recall they even included costs for insurance and malpractice IN that imaginary salary (which was 65% of what I make not NOT including insurance and malpractice which I don’t pay for out of my pocket).

So I’m not sure they even know what they’re talking about when they do record RVUs.

It’s like my dog asking me to track how many calories I feed him. It’s relevant to his health, but he has no idea what it means.

I thought about this after I posted it and I think it’s important:

The number they quoted me was GROSS salary with benefits factored in and it was 65% of what I NET (after taxes, deductions, 401k, backdoor Roth, etc), and not including benefits.
 
As stated above, milmed pads their RVU numbers in the OR with BS cases like pain and endoscopies and they still fall woefully short of real civilian hospitals.

I saw a patient today who had surgery at the local MTF and was coming to see me because his surgeon’s schedule was “too busy” to get him in after surgery. Who does that?!

I’ve heard first hand from Tricare patients that the military ENTs see 10-12 patients/day. Absolutely indefensible. The fleecing of America and the institutionalizing of these surgeons.

They have no chance in the real world outside the VA/GS system.
When I was the “4th busiest ENT in the DoD”, I saw 25 patients a day. And that was a constant struggle to maintain. I see a lot more than that on a routine day now.

I recall my reaction to the news not being “wow, all that work was worth it,” but rather “@&ck, seriously?!”
 
“Indefensible”
“No chance in the real world”
What's indefensible is what the milmed system is doing to them.

And as a result, many will struggle to adapt to work in private practice.

I do know people who I think are good clinicians, who are anxious about the transition to civilian practice.

I don't know how the senior ones who don't actually practice any more will cope. They're not bad people. Certainly not lazy, given the administrative swords they've fallen on and the hours they work. But you can't not practice medicine for ten years and then step back into it. These people exist. They're institutionalized.

He has a pretty negative view of the whole system, but I didn't interpret his post to be an attack on active duty physicians.
 
Agree here but one of the mains reasons we don’t have good solutions today (after years with DHA) is because the operational units (the line side) aren’t willing to give up having their active duty “docs” at their beck and call. They purchased billets leaving huge gaps for efficient functioning of the MTF.

They’re working on it. Most residencies are shifting/shifted to straight through. The bean counting is improving and getting up to speed with modern tech but we are short coders and other admin. The money and contracts are coming as we consolidate locations but still severely deficient.

But agree, it’s not the best from a business and practice perspective but there are early financial and lifestyle benefits. MilMed is at least stagnant if not moving in a positive direction with potential for pay increases still possible. The civilian side has their own problems depending on the location while reimbursements decline and cost of education increases.

Pick your battles but as we discussed, usually it isn’t the physician that is the problem in MilMed.
I don't entirely disagree - obviously in the end the medical corps is a supporting actor to the line.

But the crux of my point is that the medical corps flag officers have failed, spectacularly, to adequately advise the line flag officers (and DOD civilian leadership, and Congress). The line continues to demand stuff they don't need, and they continue to misuse medical assets, and they do it because our leaders have failed in their roles as advisors.

You know, and I know, and everyone in the medical corps from newest battalion surgeon all the way up the the surgeon general knows, that the billet-buying stunt the USMC pulled a few years back was outrageously idiotic, wasteful, harmful. It bought them zero capability at great cost - both in dollars and in professional harm to the doctors they "bought" so some infantry LtCols could keep their GMO concierge thing going.

We all knew it was dumb, but no one stopped it. Our flag officers decided not to pick that battle, I guess.
 
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I took choanal’s post as an attack on a system that lets (or encourages…or demands that) it’s physicians remain under-productive.

Maybe a shot at the guy who sent a post op to him. If it really was because he was “too busy” to see his own post op patient, he should lose his medical license. I have no patience for that. Take care of your current patients first, then move on to new ones.

If he was deployed or sent to field training or any of the other idiocy the military often requires, it’s a partial excuse. I always called my civilian counterparts, got their permission, before sending them that kind of thing, and only when there was no other option (I think it happened twice).
 
The line continues to demand stuff they don't need, and they continue to misuse medical assets, and they do it because our leaders have failed in their roles as advisors.

Well said and solid point.

Currently there seems to be less active duty physicians willing to apply for leadership because most are getting out. Lots of these jobs are getting no applicants which means even fewer qualified applicants will continue to compete for these flag spots you are talking about.
 
What's indefensible is what the milmed system is doing to them.

And as a result, many will struggle to adapt to work in private practice.

I do know people who I think are good clinicians, who are anxious about the transition to civilian practice.

I don't know how the senior ones who don't actually practice any more will cope. They're not bad people. Certainly not lazy, given the administrative swords they've fallen on and the hours they work. But you can't not practice medicine for ten years and then step back into it. These people exist. They're institutionalized.

He has a pretty negative view of the whole system, but I didn't interpret his post to be an attack on active duty physicians.
Meh, the MilMed system is the same beast it’s always been, just with new clothes. We all knew or should have known what we were doing when we signed up. Blaming someone or something doesn’t help to change the overall situation.

Hundreds of physicians transition to civilian practice every year and do just fine. Mostly because they maintain their basic skills and then (since nobody is requiring them to honestly hit minimums) they moonlight, take leave, double scrub on tougher cases to get themselves geared up for their civilian gig. This isn’t a new thing.
 
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Well said and solid point.

Currently there seems to be less active duty physicians willing to apply for leadership because most are getting out. Lots of these jobs are getting no applicants which means even fewer qualified applicants will continue to compete for these flag spots you are talking about.
Agreed - though I'd be cautious about criticizing the people who are jumping ship rather than staying to plug leaks. Especially the O4s who are leaving as soon as their initial ADSOs are up, which is something like 90% of attrition.

A better interpretation of why there's a leadership applicant shortage might be that decades of mismanagement and poor leadership by medical corps flag officers has driven away the best of their potential successors.

I mean, it drove me away.


(I have written at length in this forum about my own decision to opt out of leadership roles as a middle then senior O5, specifically asking my dept head to give me Ps so the MPs and EPs could go to people aiming for O6. This was after a stint as a DSS as an O4 with a well deserved MSM. I could be an O6 >20 right now, doing operational leadership stuff in a bid to earn a star someplace and "fix" milmed ... but no. I retired as an O5 last year and am happily living the dream in private practice. Proud of my time in the Navy and what I was able to contribute, but not feeling the least bit guilty about leaving or responsible for the ongoing decline.)
 
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Meh, the MilMed system is the same beast it’s always been, just with new clothes. We all knew or should have known what we were doing when we signed up. Blaming someone or something doesn’t help to change the overall situation.

Hundreds of physicians transition to civilian practice every year and do just fine. Mostly because they maintain their basic skills and then (since nobody is requiring them to honestly hit minimums) they moonlight, take leave, double scrub on tougher cases to get themselves geared up for their civilian gig. This isn’t a new thing.
That's just it though - it's not the same beast it's always been.

At the risk of appearing like a grumpy old man muttering "kids-these-days"... those things you describe to get geared up for civilian life weren't a thing 20 years ago. I burned over 80 days of leave in my last 18 months on active duty just to fly to another state to moonlight just to have sufficient numbers to maintain basic credentials in my subspecialty. That kind of need is new.

Every year our residents spend more time on out rotations.

Maybe you don't see it because you're an ortho sports guy and your volume is excellent but I'm telling you, 15 years ago when I was a resident my attendings were moonlighting for some extra cash, and when I left AD last year people were moonlighting because they were barely doing any cases at the MTF.

It's not the same beast. Don't let the frogboil blind you to the bigger picture.
 
Every year our residents spend more time on out rotations.

Maybe you don't see it because you're an ortho sports guy and your volume is excellent but I'm telling you, 15 years ago when I was a resident my attendings were moonlighting for some extra cash, and when I left AD last year people were moonlighting because they were barely doing any cases at the MTF.
Yeah, there's no way I'd be a remotely competent EM physician if we only relied on the MTF. And my first couple days when I go to an outside ED after a few months at NMCP Urgent Care, it's always a rough transition. Can't imagine what it would be like if I did years of it and then got out.
I thought about this after I posted it and I think it’s important:

The number they quoted me was GROSS salary with benefits factored in and it was 65% of what I NET (after taxes, deductions, 401k, backdoor Roth, etc), and not including benefits.
No need to keep rubbing it in. ;)
When I was the “4th busiest ENT in the DoD”, I saw 25 patients a day. And that was a constant struggle to maintain. I see a lot more than that on a routine day now.

I recall my reaction to the news not being “wow, all that work was worth it,” but rather “@&ck, seriously?!”
The issue with volume is also the support staff. There is very real pressure in civilian institutions to keep productivity high from the techs up to the physicians. At the MTF, whether it's contract nurses, or active duty corpsmen, there's zero incentive to squeeze in a post op follow up pain that shows up to a "full" schedule.

When large civilian hospitals have EMR downtime, it's scheduled well in advance, and rarely exceeds 30 minutes. If I'm at a civilian hospital and I need after hours assistance, I call a central IT desk number and get prioritized to the front just for being a physician, and my problem is often fixed right away because they know physicians produce revenue. At the MTF we don't even have IT support anymore, it all goes to a central location in San Antonio where we spend 10-15 minutes on hold, then another 10 minutes explaining the problem, someone puts in a ticket, and lets us know someone else will call us back when they get to it. Etc. Just typical bureaucracy.
Maybe a shot at the guy who sent a post op to him. If it really was because he was “too busy” to see his own post op patient, he should lose his medical license. I have no patience for that. Take care of your current patients first, then move on to new ones.

So, this is all too common. If a patient called your clinic and said I think they're pus coming out of my incision, I would imagine you'd say to come and you'll take a look. At the MTF, certain specialties are more guilty of it than others, but will often tell their people to just go to the ED. Their excuse is 1) that they're already full in clinic, and 2) well what if something else is going on, the ED needs to rule out other potential emergencies and we'll see them if nothing else is going on. Like I'm fairly certain we see more concerning surgical wounds from one specialty in particular than those specialists, because every time I ask why they didn't call the clinic, they say they did but were told to come to the ED. It's ridiculous. I can't imagine that would fly in the civilian world. Not to mention they used to get upset when we'd call them to look at their 2-14 day post op patients they/their front desk sent in. This one clinic has gotten a little better about it.
 
When it comes to skill growth and maintenance, I saw few meaningful efforts and zero meaningful results in the last 10 years of my Navy time. Plenty of flag officers doing town halls, waving their hands, telling us they "get it" and are working on it. But the only functional solution I ever saw to any piece of the problem was increasing the number of out rotations for our residents. For now, our residents still get decent to good training, in most specialties, largely on the backs of civilian programs who accept them as visitors. But there's no RRC-equivalent to lean on the Navy to fix the same problem for attendings.
Yup. We just had one of those town halls. They were saying how the Army has said all their docs WILL get sufficient volume and complexity at their MTFs, no moonlighting needed. The Navy is ok with moonlighting, but doesn't actively encourage it. And the Air Force actually encourages it and makes many of their physicians do a joint military/civilian partnership thing.

They wanted to know why the attrition is so high and what to do about it. They don't think money will help.

Personally I think if you're going to deploy for 6+ months away from family (people who often delayed family for education), and make them deal with low acuity BS and malingerers, not let them moon light, have them do mountains of administrative tasks, you need to pay them. The benefits are great, but don't compete with civilian pay (outside of maybe peds and FM in some places).

The solution is an all-reserve force, with every MTF folded into the VA system. Operational units staffed in garrison with civilians who are paid market rates, plus reservists doing their weekend/two-week thing. Deployed operational units staffed with reservists.
Kinda. I mean I remember as a flight doc sitting in on meetings, force preservation councils, human factors boards, and doing other stuff like mishap investigations. Civilians can't do a lot of that. You definitely need operational active duty physicians for some things. But also, a lot of the administrative load of those jobs are just checking records and filling out paperwork that any PA/NP could do (most of the time).
 
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The problem isn't too many managers or too few providers. The article does successfully identify the actual core problem threatening the entire system, but obliviously blows right past it:

As part of military health system reforms launched by Congress in 2016, the focus of the military medical commands shifted to supporting mainly active-duty military personnel and training for military missions,

There it is - you can't run a tertiary medical center (and the residency programs you rely on to train the doctors you need to staff everything, everywhere!) if your Congressional mandate is taking care of a patient population that is 90%+ young healthy people aged 20-40. You can't keep medical personnel competent with that kind of low acuity caseload. You can't train the next generation with it.
 
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I mean I remember as a flight doc sitting in on meetings, force preservation councils, human factors boards, and doing other stuff like mishap investigations. Civilians can't do a lot of that.

Why not? (Genuinely asking - I was a green side GMO, not a flight surgeon.) what's so special about a flight surgeon's input at those meetings?

How many mishap investigations can there possibly be, that require so many doctors to help investigate?

The FAA and NTSB do their mishap investigations without GMOs.

Maybe instead of a GMO with every squadron to handle that duty, the Navy could have, like, three people, worldwide, equipped with suitcases and passports?


I'm being a little snarky :) but much of my criticism of the medical corps leadership is their insistence on doing things they way they did them five decades ago, because that's what they have always done.
 
Why not? (Genuinely asking - I was a green side GMO, not a flight surgeon.) what's so special about a flight surgeon's input at those meetings?

How many mishap investigations can there possibly be, that require so many doctors to help investigate?

The FAA and NTSB do their mishap investigations without GMOs.

Maybe instead of a GMO with every squadron to handle that duty, the Navy could have, like, three people, worldwide, equipped with suitcases and passports?


I'm being a little snarky :) but much of my criticism of the medical corps leadership is their insistence on doing things they way they did them five decades ago, because that's what they have always done.
It's true, a lot of the meetings you don't need to be at. Not sure who's on the FAA mishap teams, but I suspect their physicians aren't as familiar with the air frames as the average flight surgeon should be. Not sure how much it matters in the investigation. Flight docs can also better advise the CO on potential limitations of personnel when it comes to flying. Some unfamiliar with the squadron and airframe could do the same, but if you can say that "despite the injury to his left 4th finger, he has sufficient grip strength to manipulate the collective and throttle," that probably means a lot more coming from someone who has done that action in the air frame compared with someone that hasn't.

There was a time when flight surgeons actually soloed in flight school. Those days are long gone and they've cut back significantly on flight hours in training. I suspect they're going to keep chipping away, as every few years I hear someone has to justify the training costs to higher ups.

Who knows. But yes, I agree. Another problem is continually pushing the medical corps in general, but especially the GMOs/Flight docs, to do more and more without the resources to accomplish those additional taskings.

There are also so many mishaps, some very small, that occur at all hours of the day and night. And if you're a flight doc you're expected to drop what you're doing and go handle the medical investigation right away. Getting civilians to do is possible, but will likely be costly.
 
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You don’t need flight surgeons and GMO’s to do all of those meetings. At all. As someone who has sat on multiple class A mishap boards (including fatalities), and has deployed many times, I can tell you that my personal connection to my squadron and how much I flew gave me zero insight into my ability to comment on things inside those meetings and on the mishap investigations. I’d like to believe it did (because I had a great relationship with my squadron pilots), but when I think about it, it definitely didn’t.

Any other medical professional could have had the same insight as me.

The flight surgeon motto of “we fly so we know how to better treat our patients and advise our CO’s” is such bull crap. So are we saying that in order to be a good cardiologist, you need to experience a heart attack so you know the field first hand? Personal flying experience doesn’t enhance your ability to diagnose and treat another pilots medical problem, which most of the time aren’t even related to flying. Someone above said knowing how a hand injury could impact a pilot’s ability to hold a cyclic? You don’t need to go to flight school to ask a patient if they use their hand they just injured for their job and understand how their hand injury will impact their job performance. That’s a lesson I learned in medical school, not flight school.
 
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Yeah, there's no way I'd be a remotely competent EM physician if we only relied on the MTF. And my first couple days when I go to an outside ED after a few months at NMCP Urgent Care, it's always a rough transition. Can't imagine what it would be like if I did years of it and then got out.

No need to keep rubbing it in. ;)

The issue with volume is also the support staff. There is very real pressure in civilian institutions to keep productivity high from the techs up to the physicians. At the MTF, whether it's contract nurses, or active duty corpsmen, there's zero incentive to squeeze in a post op follow up pain that shows up to a "full" schedule.

When large civilian hospitals have EMR downtime, it's scheduled well in advance, and rarely exceeds 30 minutes. If I'm at a civilian hospital and I need after hours assistance, I call a central IT desk number and get prioritized to the front just for being a physician, and my problem is often fixed right away because they know physicians produce revenue. At the MTF we don't even have IT support anymore, it all goes to a central location in San Antonio where we spend 10-15 minutes on hold, then another 10 minutes explaining the problem, someone puts in a ticket, and lets us know someone else will call us back when they get to it. Etc. Just typical bureaucracy.


So, this is all too common. If a patient called your clinic and said I think they're pus coming out of my incision, I would imagine you'd say to come and you'll take a look. At the MTF, certain specialties are more guilty of it than others, but will often tell their people to just go to the ED. Their excuse is 1) that they're already full in clinic, and 2) well what if something else is going on, the ED needs to rule out other potential emergencies and we'll see them if nothing else is going on. Like I'm fairly certain we see more concerning surgical wounds from one specialty in particular than those specialists, because every time I ask why they didn't call the clinic, they say they did but were told to come to the ED. It's ridiculous. I can't imagine that would fly in the civilian world. Not to mention they used to get upset when we'd call them to look at their 2-14 day post op patients they/their front desk sent in. This one clinic has gotten a little better about it.

-don’t mean to rub it in so much as to illustrate how detached leadership was from the real world. Apologies as, yeah, that can sound bastardly. But, fwiw, that’s how I felt when leadership showed me what I could be making (which was still more than I was making at the time, even though it was wrong).

-yeah, when I say I had to constantly work to maintain the volume that I had, what I really meant was consistently encouraging our staff to be willing to see 25 patients per day. It took regular meetings, conversations, and metered anger to make that happen.

-I would send a patient to the ER if I felt that whatever post op complication they were having wasn’t safe to see in my clinic. If the patient’s post tonsil bleed was significant enough that I wasn’t convinced they weren’t going to lose their airway, then my clinic is no place for them. Beyond that sort of thing I would see them in clinic. So I can only presume that when someone else sends a post op patient to the ER, they’re looking for eyes on, and will come to see the patient if they’re needed. So while that is definitely a dump, it is a little different. If another ENT sends me his post op complication, I’m stuck with it until the patient is stable enough to go back to that ENT. That might mean just a wound check, or it might mean that I have to take them to the OR, fix whatever is wrong, admit the patient for a few days, and then once they’re better send them back. It is a little different, even though both situations are $#itty. In the ER, if the patient looks bad, you call the surgeon and tell them to come take care of their patient. If another ENT doc skips town and sends their patient to me, I have no one else to send them to.
If it helps at all, the door between the clinic and ER swings both ways because the number of patients sent to me by the ER who had one episode of tonsillitis last week with no history of it at all is staggering. Or a patient with a headache and no symptoms of sinusitis, whims symptoms resolved a month ago. On one hand: just because something needs prompt attention doesn’t mean it needs to go to the ER. On the other hand, just because someone’s head hurts doesn’t mean they need ENT follow up.
 
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-I would send a patient to the ER if I felt that whatever post op complication they were having wasn’t safe to see in my clinic. If the patient’s post tonsil bleed was significant enough that I wasn’t convinced they weren’t going to lose their airway, then my clinic is no place for them. Beyond that sort of thing I would see them in clinic. So I can only presume that when someone else sends a post op patient to the ER, they’re looking for eyes on, and will come to see the patient if they’re needed. So while that is definitely a dump, it is a little different. If another ENT sends me his post op complication, I’m stuck with it until the patient is stable enough to go back to that ENT. That might mean just a wound check, or it might mean that I have to take them to the OR, fix whatever is wrong, admit the patient for a few days, and then once they’re better send them back. It is a little different, even though both situations are $#itty. In the ER, if the patient looks bad, you call the surgeon and tell them to come take care of their patient. If another ENT doc skips town and sends their patient to me, I have no one else to send them to.
If it helps at all, the door between the clinic and ER swings both ways because the number of patients sent to me by the ER who had one episode of tonsillitis last week with no history of it at all is staggering. Or a patient with a headache and no symptoms of sinusitis, whims symptoms resolved a month ago. On one hand: just because something needs prompt attention doesn’t mean it needs to go to the ER. On the other hand, just because someone’s head hurts doesn’t mean they need ENT follow up.
I completely understand when a patient looks sick, or sounds sick, or things can go bad quickly. It's always nice to get a heads up phone call if you're sending a patient to the ED, but sometimes not necessary.

But, ,at least in this one case, it's completely inappropriate that they use the ED as their triage service. When they get called to come check out this patient they told to come to the ED, 2 days post op, they ask if they really need to come see it or if it can just follow up in clinic. I used to play nice, but now I ask them to come see it.

And yeah, as a former operational PCM, even being overworked and underpaid, I expect all ED followups to come to me, and I determine what needs specialist referral. In the civilian world, when we rotated at community hospitals, I'd always be surprised when my attending would say to refer a patient to various specialists when it wasn't indicated. Like sending a patient with non-traumatic, non-operative, joint pain to ortho. Or heavy vaginal bleeding to OBGYN, or even a ruptured TM to ENT. But that's what the patients expect. And most civilian ED docs never learned primary care as a GMO, so they don't know what a PCP can handle.

That being said, it also wouldn't surprise me if some of those referrals come from mid levels.

Currently I tell all patients at the MTF that I can't put in referrals because DHA doesn't allow it from the ED, has to come through the PCP. Which I think is partially true. Because I'm also tired of patients coming in to the ED and making up symptoms to try and get an expedited referral/workup. But I do also feel bad for them because the military health system is pretty abysmal and it takes months for anything to happen.
 
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I have a very specific return to clinic instruction for patients that they all get yet I’ve had patients self report to ED or their unit corpsmen tell patients to go to the ED and then I get the nasty-grams. I’ve set up very specific protocol for triaging postop concerns with my “clinic staff” while I’m on leave or work ups or TAD and they still end up in the ED….and I get the nasty-gram. I’ve spoken directly to a postop patient on the phone and told them to come straight to my clinic so I can see them ASAP and they STILL end up in the ED.

I’m also more likely to get a nasty gram days later from the ED (or no communication at all) than I am to get a call to discuss my postop patient’s issue while they are in the ED. Hopefully that’s just my large MTF with a GME program’s issue 🤦‍♂️
 
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completely understand when a patient looks sick, or sounds sick, or things can go bad quickly. It's always nice to get a heads up phone call if you're sending a patient to the ED, but sometimes not necessary.
Oh totally agree. I’m not perfect but I always try to call first. If I know they’re coming your way, I think you deserve a message as to why. Even at night, if I get a call from the patient directly about a tonsil bleed, I call the ER and tell them that the patient is headed their way.

“But that's what the patients expect. And most civilian ED docs never learned primary care as a GMO, so they don't know what a PCP can handle. “

Honestly, most patients have no idea what I do for a living, so I don’t know how much their expectations matter. And a GP can handle headaches with a negative scan, or acute URI. I learned that in medical school, not residency.

Ok, don’t want to derail this any more than I have already.
 
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I have a very specific return to clinic instruction for patients that they all get yet I’ve had patients self report to ED or their unit corpsmen tell patients to go to the ED and then I get the nasty-grams. I’ve set up very specific protocol for triaging postop concerns with my “clinic staff” while I’m on leave or work ups or TAD and they still end up in the ED….and I get the nasty-gram. I’ve spoken directly to a postop patient on the phone and told them to come straight to my clinic so I can see them ASAP and they STILL end up in the ED.

I’m also more likely to get a nasty gram days later from the ED (or no communication at all) than I am to get a call to discuss my postop patient’s issue while they are in the ED. Hopefully that’s just my large MTF with a GME program’s issue 🤦‍♂️
Unless something is going on behind the scenes that I'm unaware of, don't think nastygrams get sent on the opposite coast MTF I'm at. We just mostly grumble under our breath.

But I get it. When I was a flight doc, another doc was giving a patient return precautions and said if any of XYZ happens, go to the ER. All that patient heard was go to the ER. And an hour later the clinic is getting an angry call from the ER asking why the patient is there.

One thing that is nice about Genesis is the ability to easily send notes to other docs. If a patient comes in at night with something odd, or even someone needs an outpatient stress test, I can usually look up their PCP, forward the note, and state "recommend outpatient stress test" or "needs refills on psych meds, provided with 1 week's worth from ED," etc.

Honestly, I think every department has its gripes about other departments. I try to be reasonable and understanding, and I expect that other departments to do the same. And we're also all highly educated and functional people. The majority of the US population is not anywhere near where we are.
 
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Yeah, not trying to throw shade directly at the ED as I have seen poorer communication across the board where I am currently at. I was surprised because my MilMed education was to over-communicate, collaborate and be kind. I felt surrounded by like-minded providers during my overseas time. Now I’m back at a different large MTF and frustrated by less cohesion and cooperation. But it is what it is…plenty of other benefits of where I am now to balance it out. I just wish the leaders here focused on the small community feel that MilMed is known for.
 
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Ahh, there it is. I was waiting for the derogatory post against military physicians who voluntarily accepted lower pay and lower volume/complexity to receive a scholarship and serve their country for a while.

Nobody thinks MilMed does it right but the system is the system and it is there for a very specific purpose. Up until DHA came along cost, RVU’s, efficiency were barely an afterthought. Now at least we understand our limitations and are trying to figure out a way to make it work while still focusing on our primary mission which is an operational ready medical force and/or humanitarian/peacetime relations medical force.

Skill sustainability is at the forefront of areas that need to be improved to have the effective force listed above. The backbone of that is the right volume, complexity and clinic/OR management to make it possible. This is still a work in progress. Fortunately the pitfalls are at least acknowledged as opposed to ignored the way they used to be when I joined and most of you were early/mid career.

Currently retention is abysmal and the application pool (at least that comes through my interviews) is average at best. Although nationwide patriotism, satisfaction and sense of purpose/duty is at an all time low so I am not surprised. None of this is the fault of your average MilMed physician. They are just receiving the collateral damage from everything discussed in this thread.

I have no idea if this surgeon deployed or not but what I do know is that he/she has at least 3 partners at said MTF so it is apathy and patient abandonment, pure and simple.

Don't get me started on the dumps from Tricaid into the "network" because these physicians limit templates to 10-12 patients/day.
 
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I have no idea if this surgeon deployed or not but what I do know is that he/she has at least 3 partners at said MTF so it is apathy and patient abandonment, pure and simple.

Don't get me started on the dumps from Tricaid into the "network" because these physicians limit templates to 10-12 patients/day.
Would just like to point out that the ERs don't get to "defer to network" or tell patients our schedule is full. We capture most of the disgruntled patients that can't get an appointment with their PCP/specialist. So if you're one of those specialists, please understand this and be nice when we call.

Also, I remember as a flight doc I was constantly squeezing people into my schedule to keep them from going to the ED for stupid stuff. Maybe it was because I was an EM intern, but more PCPs need to take ownership of their patient panel. I get that it's hard when you're not attached to a unit, but if this was the civilian world you'd just stick that patient with a several thousand dollar bill.

However, we sometimes do have to make embarrasing calls to other outside hospitals because our MTF won't take a sick patient.
 
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I just remembered something. As a med student I did a rotation at an operational/family med clinic with the Army. One of the PAs there showed me a website where you could look up how much the Army spent on your medical care. I didn't pay much attention to it at the time, but she was saying how everyone complains about Army healthcare, but they don't realize how much this would cost them in the civilian world.

Anyone know what that site is? Is it just an Army thing?
 
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