How do you manage patient expectations?

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Slowpoke

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Every so often, I may get a referral from a PCP as their patient gradually became a chronic opioid user for various conditions I wouldn't necessarily prescribe opioids for. The expectation that I run into often times revolves around the patient coming with the idea they will be getting opioids from me (at equivalent dosing or higher), but unfortunately what they are met with is optimizing non-opioid options along with the offering to down-titrate opioids. Understandably, this is often met with strong resistance/push back/bargaining/heightened emotions. I can see this being an issue over the course of a career (i.e burnout), so I wanted to ask how the senior folks have navigated this issue? I am a newer attending working in a multi-specialty group practice.

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Curate referrals carefully. Have someone screen for patients already on opioids etc. Make them acknowledge when you call them that they will not be getting opioids. Do not become that guy that takes all the pcps messes.
 
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Curate referrals carefully. Have someone screen for patients already on opioids etc. Make them acknowledge when you call them that they will not be getting opioids. Do not become that guy that takes all the pcps messes.

Cherry picking referrals isn't an option for me, unfortunately. My schedule is wide open and refusing referrals is a sure way to piss off the higher ups. But I can definitely see how this is the surest way to a less painful panel.
 
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Every so often, I may get a referral from a PCP as their patient gradually became a chronic opioid user for various conditions I wouldn't necessarily prescribe opioids for. The expectation that I run into often times revolves around the patient coming with the idea they will be getting opioids from me (at equivalent dosing or higher), but unfortunately what they are met with is optimizing non-opioid options along with the offering to down-titrate opioids. Understandably, this is often met with strong resistance/push back/bargaining/heightened emotions. I can see this being an issue over the course of a career (i.e burnout), so I wanted to ask how the senior folks have navigated this issue? I am a newer attending working in a multi-specialty group practice.
I usually act confused and say it must've been communication error or misunderstanding between patient and PCP. I tell them that most patients are referred to me for consideration of injections (which is true). Specifically for these patients who have pre-conceived notions about pain mgmt, I then say something like"surgeons always say they can only offer surgery right? well interventional pain docs are the ones that do the injections, and primary care are typically the ones that may or may not prescribe medications." And then I go on about multi-modal medication management and would be happy to lower their opioids to what I feel is reasonable if they want me to take over.

I feel it would be harder to navigate if the doctors in your own multi-specialty group passes these patients along to you though.

It all comes down to expectations set forth by referring provider. This is why surgical referrals are typically more straightforward than PCP/rheum/neurology referrals. They put into the patient's head the expectations of injections, whereas PCPs give patients the BS about "only pain mgmt can prescribe opioids. DEA won't let me prescribe. My license won't let me prescribe. Only pain mgmt can prescribe higher doses" or some combination of such blatant lies.
 
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I usually act confused and say it must've been communication error or misunderstanding between patient and PCP. I tell them that most patients are referred to me for consideration of injections (which is true). Specifically for these patients who have pre-conceived notions about pain mgmt, I then say something like"surgeons always say they can only offer surgery right? well interventional pain docs are the ones that do the injections, and primary care are typically the ones that may or may not prescribe medications." And then I go on about multi-modal medication management and would be happy to lower their opioids to what I feel is reasonable if they want me to take over.

I feel it would be harder to navigate if the doctors in your own multi-specialty group passes these patients along to you though.

It all comes down to expectations set forth by referring provider. This is why surgical referrals are typically more straightforward than PCP/rheum/neurology referrals. They put into the patient's head the expectations of injections, whereas PCPs give patients the BS about "only pain mgmt can prescribe opioids. DEA won't let me prescribe. My license won't let me prescribe. Only pain mgmt can prescribe higher doses" or some combination of such blatant lies.
Yes, I think perhaps one of the negatives I'm uncovering from a multi-specialty group is the inability to really control what walks through the door. I have to find a way to reasonably adapt. I technically can't say I'm primarily interventional pain because I'm under the umbrella of our pain department.
 
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With all due respect their DEA number works just like yours. You’re going to creat more headaches down the road than you can imagine.
 
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I'm in 100% agreement with you! I'm not looking to be that designated person
 
If I take on prescribing your opioids, my expectation is that we will slowly take you off of them and find safer long-term alternative treatments. Opioid medications aren't intended for long term use and are toxic to you. If coming off of them and no longer having to deal with the frequent visits, drug tests, and potential dangers sounds appealing to you, then I can help you. If that does not sound like the best option for you, I respect your opinion but would encourage you to look elsewhere.
 
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U already need to start looking for a new job. Slow and expected to take over opioid dumps
 
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U already need to start looking for a new job. Slow and expected to take over opioid dumps

I think this would def be the case if it was a majority of my patients. Thankfully it tends to be the exception, not the rule!
 
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be a team player. As you said, your schedule is open so you have time for some minor headaches and to do a few things you aren’t passionate about. Some entity is paying your salary and going in the whole monthly to pay you at this point.
 
I have a sign at my front window stating I do not prescribe narcotics. My receptionist also informs new patients when scheduling them. This is in a small town where there was recently a pill mill. It’s worked for me.
 
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I try to take the emotion out of it. “I’m sorry, this is what I feel comfortable prescribing. This is what I think is appropriate for your condition. I don’t practice pain management that way” etc etc.

Avoid using language that might seriously piss someone off because in this day and age they may come back to shoot you.
 
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be a team player. As you said, your schedule is open so you have time for some minor headaches and to do a few things you aren’t passionate about. Some entity is paying your salary and going in the whole monthly to pay you at this point.

Happy to be a team player, but don’t want to feed into a prescribing pattern that I disagree with.
 
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I often say something along the lines of, "your PCP referred you to me for consideration of things beyond what they can do. We have the same medical license and can prescribe the same medications. What differentiates me is the procedures I am trained to do, which is the reason you were referred beyond your PCP."
 
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Staff calls when setting up the appointment to let patients know that I would not Rx for them. Reminder call day before appointment. They can cancel appointment anytime.
 
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Cherry picking referrals isn't an option for me, unfortunately. My schedule is wide open and refusing referrals is a sure way to piss off the higher ups. But I can definitely see how this is the surest way to a less painful panel.
be a team player. As you said, your schedule is open so you have time for some minor headaches and to do a few things you aren’t passionate about. Some entity is paying your salary and going in the whole monthly to pay you at this point.
all of these "solutions" are temporary.

what you need to do is a systemic change at your practice.

this is going to take some time.

1. convince admin that your value comes not in being an opioid prescriber but being an interventionalist. this is probably the easiest part, as you can have them look at $$$ when it comes to those procedures.

2. you are going to have to work on the rest of the practice regarding their opioid prescribing. this will be the hard part.

you'll have to communicate with the others to convince them to not start opioids so that they dont get in a mess and send these patients to you.
you'll have to convince them instead of starting opioids, to do an early referral to you to address the pain issues.
you will have to convince the surgeons that they should only give a very limited amount of pills post procedure only for a declared short period of time (ie 1-2 weeks only).

3. you should change around your approach with the patient. tell patients (and PCPs) that in terms of opioids, you are a consultant. if the PCP requests, you can consult and provide suggestions on what is appropriate, not appropriate, what needs to be done with regards to monitoring (and let patient know that it is required), and if they have been stopped by the PCP, how you can help in non-opioid treatments.
 
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Every so often, I may get a referral from a PCP as their patient gradually became a chronic opioid user for various conditions I wouldn't necessarily prescribe opioids for. The expectation that I run into often times revolves around the patient coming with the idea they will be getting opioids from me (at equivalent dosing or higher), but unfortunately what they are met with is optimizing non-opioid options along with the offering to down-titrate opioids. Understandably, this is often met with strong resistance/push back/bargaining/heightened emotions. I can see this being an issue over the course of a career (i.e burnout), so I wanted to ask how the senior folks have navigated this issue? I am a newer attending working in a multi-specialty group practice.
I’m a pcp and I’ve got a great relationship with our local pain management md. Shortly after she started She called me about a complicated patient and we had a nice talk and we text intermittently about patients and random things at this point. She’s told me to pass along to our NPs and other providers to please send her patients before we start an opiate since she can often get them controlled without pain pills. She’s gotten several of mine entirely off opiates who I sent to her with goal of them getting off pain pills. The patients love her as well and I tell patients if you don’t have a horrible type of cancer, a broken bone or are in process of dying I don’t start pain medications.

It helps that our entire office has this policy. She said my patient population is perfect for her referrals since most of mine are terrified of getting addicted to pain medications and go to her with goal of not needing them. She does some chronic Med management but not much. She has one of my patients who has one of their leg muscles literally ripped in two down to one pain medication every few days after some nerve ablations. (Walking was understandably excruciating for her prior to intervention). If patients have a goal of only pain pills I refer to a different pain management group that does this.
 
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2. you are going to have to work on the rest of the practice regarding their opioid prescribing. this will be the hard part.

you'll have to communicate with the others to convince them to not start opioids so that they dont get in a mess and send these patients to you.
you'll have to convince them instead of starting opioids, to do an early referral to you to address the pain issues.
you will have to convince the surgeons that they should only give a very limited amount of pills post procedure only for a declared short period of time (ie 1-2 weeks only).

Represents best hope for OP and if she/he really wants to try to make this gig sustainable it’s worth the effort.

A few ways to do this…
Since your schedule is open, take some time to go to pcp clinics and say hi in person. Briefly highlight what you do and don’t do and how you can help. And have a canned elevator pitch ready to casually deliver during which mention at least twice that there is no good evidence to support COT for MSK pain and can make pain worse. If you only say it once they may think they misheard you or that you misspoke. No need to bring up addiction or anything else as they will have heard that a trillion times and will dilute the message. Invite questions and be ready to provide a study or two that highlights this (ie OPAL).

Other option is go to CMO of the group, highlight any concerns of patient morbidity 2/2 COT (as well as risk mitigation for the group), and to get buy-in on the above message. Then ask for suggestions on how to best disseminate the info to your referrers. With a little luck, CMO may come up with “their” idea to make COT reduction an internal quality metric.

If you meet resistance on trying to curb opioid prescribing in the group and/or they still expect you to Rx, time to look for greener pastures
 
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OP practices in HCOL SoCal. It’s very saturated here. If he denies these patients, competitors will eat him up.

Respectfully disagree. I don’t work in SoCal but another population dense area in the northeast. Yes you might be slow ramping up but the payoff will be worth it, assuming the employer can wait it out. OP needs to highlight that interventions is what will provide the most value. Others with more experience have given loads of good advice, some of which I’ll use as well, and here’s my own two cents.

It’ll be easy to take on these opioid patients in the short term but eventually your clinic will be overrun by refills. You won’t have the time to bring on many new patients amenable to injections. I’m hospital employed with a strong referral network so YMMV but in the beginning I felt like you did, that I couldn’t or shouldn’t deny anyone. There were a few bad apple PCPs that would load their patients up on high MME and then dump them when they were train wrecks and/or tell the refugees they can get them from me. At the time of the patient visit I would resist and usually decline, resulting in an angry patient. After a few months I already had a few encounters with quite aggressive verbal harassment, and one time a patient met me in the parking lot. Finally I had a frank discussion with the few offending PCPs saying to stop sending me these patients. I rarely get any patients period from them now but it’s no skin off my back as they were horrible referrals 9/10 times. I also set up a screening process like others described. It initially received pushback from my manager, but finally after the events described above they acquiesced and it’s been smooth sailing ever since. You will get the volume you need. It might take a little longer, but the patients will come.

Do yourself a favor OP and don’t wind up on the evening news.
 
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Respectfully disagree. I don’t work in SoCal but another population dense area in the northeast. Yes you might be slow ramping up but the payoff will be worth it, assuming the employer can wait it out. OP needs to highlight that interventions is what will provide the most value. Others with more experience have given loads of good advice, some of which I’ll use as well, and here’s my own two cents.

It’ll be easy to take on these opioid patients in the short term but eventually your clinic will be overrun by refills. You won’t have the time to bring on many new patients amenable to injections. I’m hospital employed with a strong referral network so YMMV but in the beginning I felt like you did, that I couldn’t or shouldn’t deny anyone. There were a few bad apple PCPs that would load their patients up on high MME and then dump them when they were train wrecks and/or tell the refugees they can get them from me. At the time of the patient visit I would resist and usually decline, resulting in an angry patient. After a few months I already had a few encounters with quite aggressive verbal harassment, and one time a patient met me in the parking lot. Finally I had a frank discussion with the few offending PCPs saying to stop sending me these patients. I rarely get any patients period from them now but it’s no skin off my back as they were horrible referrals 9/10 times. I also set up a screening process like others described. It initially received pushback from my manager, but finally after the events described above they acquiesced and it’s been smooth sailing ever since. You will get the volume you need. It might take a little longer, but the patients will come.

Do yourself a favor OP and don’t wind up on the evening news.
From one of your previous posts:

"Second, if you want to avoid a high opioid and/or questionable ethics practice you may sacrifice some earning potential. Expect to make a starting salary of around 275-325k. After 1-2 years I’d expect at least 350k upwards of 500k+"

Do you make 500k+ in a HCOL Northeast saturated market in a 100% ethical practice? Or is this just what you expect? 275-325k in SoCal hardly makes pain worth it, even as PM&R.
 
From one of your previous posts:

"Second, if you want to avoid a high opioid and/or questionable ethics practice you may sacrifice some earning potential. Expect to make a starting salary of around 275-325k. After 1-2 years I’d expect at least 350k upwards of 500k+"

Do you make 500k+ in a HCOL Northeast saturated market in a 100% ethical practice? Or is this just what you expect? 275-325k in SoCal hardly makes pain worth it, even as PM&R.

I do some opioids maybe like 20% of my practice. All are under 50 MME, 90% at 10-20 MME, and consider myself “ethical”. I’ve been at my job for just over a year, started at 300k, will hit production bonus this year to make income around 400k. My partner makes over 500k, been there a few years more than I have.
 
Every so often, I may get a referral from a PCP as their patient gradually became a chronic opioid user for various conditions I wouldn't necessarily prescribe opioids for. The expectation that I run into often times revolves around the patient coming with the idea they will be getting opioids from me (at equivalent dosing or higher), but unfortunately what they are met with is optimizing non-opioid options along with the offering to down-titrate opioids. Understandably, this is often met with strong resistance/push back/bargaining/heightened emotions. I can see this being an issue over the course of a career (i.e burnout), so I wanted to ask how the senior folks have navigated this issue? I am a newer attending working in a multi-specialty group practice.

My website contact form says I don't rx opiates or fill out disability forms. My assistant makes all patients aware I'm not an opiate prescriber, so by the time they're in the office it's very unlikely they will push that issue. When it comes up I frame opiate prescribing in terms of sustainability of benefit. Sure, you may have pain relief for a while. But most patients on opiates don't say, "I feel GREAT!!" They say "it takes the edge off", which to me is not worth the risk of steadily worsening pain over time. At some point, you have to do the hard work of actually addressing the underlying problem, or you'll never make progress. I point out that I have a large number of patients with all kinds of horrific pain disorders who manage far better off of opiates than on. I also point out that I've had much greater success prescribing naltrexone than just about any other pain med.

Patients don't usually push the issue further!
 
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My website contact form says I don't rx opiates or fill out disability forms. My assistant makes all patients aware I'm not an opiate prescriber, so by the time they're in the office it's very unlikely they will push that issue. When it comes up I frame opiate prescribing in terms of sustainability of benefit. Sure, you may have pain relief for a while. But most patients on opiates don't say, "I feel GREAT!!" They say "it takes the edge off", which to me is not worth the risk of steadily worsening pain over time. At some point, you have to do the hard work of actually addressing the underlying problem, or you'll never make progress. I point out that I have a large number of patients with all kinds of horrific pain disorders who manage far better off of opiates than on. I also point out that I've had much greater success prescribing naltrexone than just about any other pain med.

Patients don't usually push the issue further!
“But it works for meeeee!!!”
 
I’m a pcp and I’ve got a great relationship with our local pain management md. Shortly after she started She called me about a complicated patient and we had a nice talk and we text intermittently about patients and random things at this point. She’s told me to pass along to our NPs and other providers to please send her patients before we start an opiate since she can often get them controlled without pain pills. She’s gotten several of mine entirely off opiates who I sent to her with goal of them getting off pain pills. The patients love her as well and I tell patients if you don’t have a horrible type of cancer, a broken bone or are in process of dying I don’t start pain medications.

It helps that our entire office has this policy. She said my patient population is perfect for her referrals since most of mine are terrified of getting addicted to pain medications and go to her with goal of not needing them. She does some chronic Med management but not much. She has one of my patients who has one of their leg muscles literally ripped in two down to one pain medication every few days after some nerve ablations. (Walking was understandably excruciating for her prior to intervention). If patients have a goal of only pain pills I refer to a different pain management group that does this.
This is a great example of good networking, relationship building with PCPs. This pain doc gets all the good cases, another pain doc gets the dumps.
 
Cherry picking referrals isn't an option for me, unfortunately. My schedule is wide open and refusing referrals is a sure way to piss off the higher ups. But I can definitely see how this is the surest way to a less painful panel.

You need to get out of this kind of situation immediately. You're being set up for failure.
 
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My website contact form says I don't rx opiates or fill out disability forms. My assistant makes all patients aware I'm not an opiate prescriber, so by the time they're in the office it's very unlikely they will push that issue. When it comes up I frame opiate prescribing in terms of sustainability of benefit. Sure, you may have pain relief for a while. But most patients on opiates don't say, "I feel GREAT!!" They say "it takes the edge off", which to me is not worth the risk of steadily worsening pain over time. At some point, you have to do the hard work of actually addressing the underlying problem, or you'll never make progress. I point out that I have a large number of patients with all kinds of horrific pain disorders who manage far better off of opiates than on. I also point out that I've had much greater success prescribing naltrexone than just about any other pain med.

Patients don't usually push the issue further!
Need you back in the presidential politics bull**** thread. Found some of your posts from 2008.
 
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