How are the SGU success stories explained?

[DrStephenStrange]

No problem with DO. I don't think anybody has a problem with DO.

I'm not waiting for multiple cycles and I think a lot of people would feel the same way.

You said you're not a low tier applicant, but yet refuses to apply DO because you don't wanna wait multiple cycles. That doesn't make any sense!!! If you have a 3.3+ science and cumulative GPA and a 500+ MCAT, you will get in a DO school somewhere.

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[johncstudent32]

Can you explain how chances of being a doctor are less than 50% (and going to shrink further due to med school expansion outstripping the rate of residency slot creation) is a "viable plan"?

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are quite a number of US med schools that will reward reinvention.

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they ‘d be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.

The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.

And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.

You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib threshing machine (like Bedevilled Ben or mikkus) into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?

I don't know if you're simply trolling or engaging in magic thinking, but here's a little light reading:

Million $ Mistake

http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/medical-school-at-sgu

"Why didn't I Match?"

There seems to be a lot of discussion lately on this topic, including a lot of fear-mongering anecdotes with an undercurrent of innuendo that odds are you will necessarily fail if you go to the Caribbean. With that said, I'm sharing an article from the AMA's blog about why applicants/soon-to-be...

forums.studentdoctor.net

A couple things.

1. Please don't call those who come here for advice "trolls" if you are in disagreement with their positions. That just encourages us to tell everyone else to steer clear of this forum.

2. To answer your initial question, I don't believe SGU has a 50% match rate according to my understanding of the NRMP data. I think you are talking about 50% matching from the Caribbean but there is only one school in Grenada and over 85% of the students who entered the match, matched. Someone like me is looking at that data and not the often confusing 50% that is casually thrown around these forums.

3. I spoke to SGU and they said they have agreements with many hospitals for third year spots. That's part of the reason why I only selected SGU and not other schools. If you are only speculating that SGU does not have enough third year spots without actually knowing how many spots they have then that's not fair to post and discourage a prospective student. According to my research, SGU has enough third year spots for their students.

4. I looked at a few other posters including the ones you mentioned but it appears they graduated SGU some time ago and the curriculum has changed since then so their advice would not apply.

5. Oh I read that Tameer SGU post a while back but if you actually read all the details, she admits she was not a good student and was sidetracked. That's why the original link to that article is no longer active.

6. You're a DO guy right, you should be able to shed some light on how competitive the process is for DO schools and that a spot is not even guaranteed after multiple cycles. So that's why people are ending up at SGU because they can get through the STEP's and match because they have that drive and SGU gives them the opportunity. The big mistake is to bunch all SGU applicants together. Some have it and some don't.

 

[hallowmann]

Trying to convince OP of anything is pointless. He's made his decision, he can live with it. That said, I'm going to address some of these points for other people since I was summoned.

The way I look at it is if everyone listened to the "Don't go Caribbean" advice then nobody would apply to these schools, they would go out of business, shut down, and then there would be no other option but to apply MD/DO stateside where these same students who are applying to these schools will probably still not be competitive. Now obviously people are still applying to St. George's and matching into residencies so if that is something that is ongoing, how do you explain to a prospective student that the SGU route is still not a viable option to becoming a practicing doc?

There will always be less competitive applicants. The acceptance rates are ~40% for applicants to US MD and DO schools. The 60% that don't make it have to apply elsewhere. There will also always be gullible people that ignore the risk and buy the propaganda of schools.

If you have any questions about how aggressively Carib schools recruit and how much money they spend to keep those students coming, you'll realize that there will always be Carib applicants. The only difference will be that they'll be less and less competitive. Take a look at this forum without your ad-blocker on. Virtually every ad is for SGU, Trinity, or some no-name school. I can tell you that I remember the very first time I took the MCAT, within weeks I was contacted by multiple schools (via snail mail by the way), including a brand new school trying to make a name for itself **cough** AUA **cough** **cough** (I'm sure that's dating me a bit). The ads all claimed that they were a "better" and "faster" way to become a doctor. If anything advertising has increased over the last 15+ yrs.

Except those grades are what is the typical student here at carib schools. If they had respectable stats then they'd get into a DO program right? Carib can be an option, just don't consider it until 2-3 cycles of applying very broadly to US MD/DO and considering post-bacc work to improve your chances. My class has 180 people originally but is currently at 260 due to people repeating. Last semester had a class of ~420 with 180 people failing and having to repeat/remediate/score so low that they dropped out. If you want hard stats, about 55-65% of students at a big 3 will graduate. Of that percent, about 80-90% will match/SOAP but 80% of that will be in a primary care field. Just do your due diligence, avoid carib if you can, but stop looking for those "success" stories to try and validate your decision. Obviously people here can and have matched, but its under different circumstances and typically in less desirable fields.

This is a pretty accurate representation of the 3 main Carib schools (SGU, Ross, and AUC). Saba has a bit different demographics, but some of that is confounded by the large number of Canadians there - due to their federal loan status.

I live in the New York area and a lot of smaller programs are filled by IMG's. I don't know what geographical location you are in but up here in the New York, New Jersey area there are a lot of SGU students and grads so I guess that is how I am familiar with those who are succeeding.

Do you think all those US med students want to work in IM in Harlem, New York though? I mean are you guys competing for those residencies?

The truth is that as US MD and DO schools continue to expand, they will be competing for those programs. We've actually seen it a lot LATELY. A lot of programs that used to primarily be DO and Carib MD are now more US MD, some DO, and barely any Carib MD. There will always be programs in NY & NJ that take Carib grads because for one they are actually paying a ton to those hospitals and that's where a lot of those students are rotating. That said, its not anywhere close to enough to accommodate all the SGU grads.

I understand your stance and others but I don't think it is fair to say that if you keep applying that everybody who wants to go to medical school will eventually get in. I don't think that is realistic because you have competitive applicants coming in for every cycle. So for those students who are borderline but don't get in because of the competition, I really do think those students can become doctors at SGU. I mean that's what I'm seeing over here and at some point it does make you interested in the route. I mean would you rather be a doctor and get to work or do you want to still remain on the sidelines indefinitely?

The point that a lot of people are getting at is that you should try your best to go US MD or at least DO. If you can't pull that off, then you should seriously consider whether or not you should even become a doctor.

Is it possible to go and become a licensed physician from those schools, yeah, but its a hell of a gamble. You should know that in all honesty, going their, your chances of not getting a residency are higher than your chances of getting it.

I did enough research to know that YOU don't know what you're talking about. I called up SGU a few weeks back and they said you need a 500 MCAT minimum. You're saying 495 which is considerably lower and you go to Ross which I would never consider.

I think its already been pointed out that you are incorrect here. If an SGU rep actually told you that they have a minimum, that should be an even bigger red flag, because its a blatant lie. To be clear, I don't think you're lying, I just think they were. Honestly, that should worry you.

What didn't you get?

No US student is competing for a small community health spot in a no-name location. I have US med school friends too bud lol.

This is seriously inaccurate. Every year 1000 US MDs & DO seniors don't place into residency programs. I'm telling you, those people are competing for a small community health spot at a no-name location. Sure, the ones who got top-20 US MD may not be (they have better options), but applicants from low tier US MD or DO schools with red flags are competing for those spots.

Good for you man. That's not everybody's story however.

Someone could go to SGU and graduate and have five years of an attending salary under their belt while you were just starting to get your feet wet. You have to look at it like that as well... unless you are going to make the argument that you want to become a big bad orthopedic surgeon lol. Not everybody goes to the Caribbean to find the specialty that makes the most money. Some people, like myself, actually enjoy primary care.

The likelihood of you (anyone) finishing at SGU in 4 yrs is low. Most people actually finish in 5 years. Residency is on a cycle and half of SGU students start off-cycle (i.e. Spring start time). Then you have to take into account the amount of time to study for Step 1, which should be substantial, because for you to have chances of matching anywhere, you'll need average or better on the Steps. A lot of people take 4-6 mos to study for Steps after finishing their classes on the islands. Next you have to pray that you won't have rotations dropped. When I was interviewing I met an SGU student who had a few rotations dropped, and not only did the school charge her more tuition for "extending" her rotations (she literally had a few weeks where she was doing nothing but looking for a rotation to fill in for the one that was dropped), it delayed her. The other thing you have to worry about is ECFMG certification prior to applying to residency, which can take months and requires actually finishing and passing the appropriate steps.

I have a lot of friends that made it through SGU, Ross, and AUC. I also have many friends that failed out halfway through. If you genuinely haven't seen the horror stories then either you don't have the exposure/experience that you think you have or you blinding yourself from those stories.

 

[johncstudent32]

If you apply to the carib you are, by definition, a low tier applicant. High-mid tier applicants don't go to the carib, they go to USMD schools.

Goodluck.

lol

 

[johncstudent32]

Since you need translating, what he meant was that residency program directors have no way of knowing what your stats were coming into med school. They will lump all Carib grads in the same category. Meaning automatically low tier.

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You're a residency director too?

 

[johncstudent32]

Trying to convince OP of anything is pointless. He's made his decision, he can live with it. That said, I'm going to address some of these points for other people since I was summoned.



There will always be less competitive applicants. The acceptance rates are ~40% for applicants to US MD and DO schools. The 60% that don't make it have to apply elsewhere. There will also always be gullible people that ignore the risk and buy the propaganda of schools.

If you have any questions about how aggressively Carib schools recruit and how much money they spend to keep those students coming, you'll realize that there will always be Carib applicants. The only difference will be that they'll be less and less competitive. Take a look at this forum without your ad-blocker on. Virtually every ad is for SGU, Trinity, or some no-name school. I can tell you that I remember the very first time I took the MCAT, within weeks I was contacted by multiple schools (via snail mail by the way), including a brand new school trying to make a name for itself **cough** AUA **cough** **cough** (I'm sure that's dating me a bit). The ads all claimed that they were a "better" and "faster" way to become a doctor. If anything advertising has increased over the last 15+ yrs.



This is a pretty accurate representation of the 3 main Carib schools (SGU, Ross, and AUC). Saba has a bit different demographics, but some of that is confounded by the large number of Canadians there - due to their federal loan status.



The truth is that as US MD and DO schools continue to expand, they will be competing for those programs. We've actually seen it a lot LATELY. A lot of programs that used to primarily be DO and Carib MD are now more US MD, some DO, and barely any Carib MD. There will always be programs in NY & NJ that take Carib grads because for one they are actually paying a ton to those hospitals and that's where a lot of those students are rotating. That said, its not anywhere close to enough to accommodate all the SGU grads.



The point that a lot of people are getting at is that you should try your best to go US MD or at least DO. If you can't pull that off, then you should seriously consider whether or not you should even become a doctor.

Is it possible to go and become a licensed physician from those schools, yeah, but its a hell of a gamble. You should know that in all honesty, going their, your chances of not getting a residency are higher than your chances of getting it.



I think its already been pointed out that you are incorrect here. If an SGU rep actually told you that they have a minimum, that should be an even bigger red flag, because its a blatant lie. To be clear, I don't think you're lying, I just think they were. Honestly, that should worry you.



This is seriously inaccurate. Every year 1000 US MDs & DO seniors don't place into residency programs. I'm telling you, those people are competing for a small community health spot at a no-name location. Sure, the ones who got top-20 US MD may not be (they have better options), but applicants from low tier US MD or DO schools with red flags are competing for those spots.



The likelihood of you (anyone) finishing at SGU in 4 yrs is low. Most people actually finish in 5 years. Residency is on a cycle and half of SGU students start off-cycle (i.e. Spring start time). Then you have to take into account the amount of time to study for Step 1, which should be substantial, because for you to have chances of matching anywhere, you'll need average or better on the Steps. A lot of people take 4-6 mos to study for Steps after finishing their classes on the islands. Next you have to pray that you won't have rotations dropped. When I was interviewing I met an SGU student who had a few rotations dropped, and not only did the school charge her more tuition for "extending" her rotations (she literally had a few weeks where she was doing nothing but looking for a rotation to fill in for the one that was dropped), it delayed her. The other thing you have to worry about is ECFMG certification prior to applying to residency, which can take months and requires actually finishing and passing the appropriate steps.

I have a lot of friends that made it through SGU, Ross, and AUC. I also have many friends that failed out halfway through. If you genuinely haven't seen the horror stories then either you don't have the exposure/experience that you think you have or you blinding yourself from those stories.

Quoting this whole thing is painful but what experience do you have with SGU students? You're saying an awful lot there and I disagree with every point.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

You're a residency director too?

The program director survey and medical conferences exist for that reason. I don't have to be a PD. You're just sounding more and more ridiculous the more you comment on here.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Quoting this whole thing is painful but what experience do you have with SGU students? You're saying an awful lot there and I disagree with every point.

He's literally a physician. Did you stop to think that maybe he's got the experience and that he actually knows what he's talking about?

 

[johncstudent32]

The program director survey and medical conferences exist for that reason. I don't have to be a PD. You're just sounding more and more ridiculous the more you comment on here.

No, don't try that man. You're getting worked up again and trying to instigate an internet fight or illicit a response. Just keep it on subject. You know that I did my research and the anti-Caribbean spiel is not going to work with me.

The initial question was asking how you justify the students that are matching from SGU and you guys have found a way to turn it into this diatribe. Good job.

 

[johncstudent32]

He's literally a physician. Did you stop to think that maybe he's got the experience and that he actually knows what he's talking about?

Yeah, I know SGU physicians too man.

 

[Sephirakra]

I am not applying to allopathic schools. I am am applying to DO master's programs or a future SMP. I am confident that this would be the route for me to medical school.

OP posted this yesterday. Do not feed the troll.

 

[johncstudent32]

OP posted this yesterday. Do not feed the troll.

Yeah, and now I want to apply to SGU. nice try.

 

[Sephirakra]

Yeah, and now I want to apply to SGU. nice try.

I'm not trying anything. You want to apply to SGU, fine. No sweat off my nose. But if you start a thread asking for advice, it's trollish behavior to try to refute people's points.

 

[johncstudent32]

I'm not trying anything. You want to apply to SGU, fine. No sweat off my nose. But if you start a thread asking for advice, it's trollish behavior to try to refute people's points.

Not if the advice is clearly wrong. Make sense? There's a difference.

 

[Sephirakra]

Not if the advice is clearly wrong. Make sense? There's a difference.

Okay, kid. I'm out. Good luck.

 

[hallowmann]

...2. To answer your initial question, I don't believe SGU has a 50% match rate according to my understanding of the NRMP data. I think you are talking about 50% matching from the Caribbean but there is only one school in Grenada and over 85% of the students who entered the match, matched. Someone like me is looking at that data and not the often confusing 50% that is casually thrown around these forums...

The 85% that you are quoting (I actually believe the report from 2013 - the only one I know of that actually separate people in terms of the Carib island their school is on - shows a match rate of 67% for Grenada, if you have another source, please post it) is of those that actually graduate and apply, a number much smaller than those who start. <50% of people who start will match.

...3. I spoke to SGU and they said they have agreements with many hospitals for third year spots. That's part of the reason why I only selected SGU and not other schools. If you are only speculating that SGU does not have enough third year spots without actually knowing how many spots they have then that's not fair to post and discourage a prospective student. According to my research, SGU has enough third year spots for their students...

They aren't the only ones that have those agreements. Actually Ross, AUC, and even AUA have similar agreements with hospitals. The thing that you should realize is that those are constantly in flux. This is actually true for US MD and DO schools that don't have their own dedicated teaching hospitals as well, but those schools are under pressure from US accrediting agencies and federal education laws. Those spots seriously change year to year. Contracts end, prices go up, and people's rotations get dropped.

I don't believe you have done enough research on SGU having "enough" 3rd year spots, unless by "research" you mean you asked an SGU rep and they reassured you that this was the case. SGU has something like 1200-1500 students per year. It does not have enough connections to place that many students into quality rotations, but that turns OK because 1/3 of those students won't make it to 3rd year.

I commend you on only considering SGU, because I agree of the Carib, anything outside of SGU, Ross, and AUC would be just foolish. That doesn't mean its a good choice though.

...4. I looked at a few other posters including the ones you mentioned but it appears they graduated SGU some time ago and the curriculum has changed since then so their advice would not apply...

There are many more recent stories. Goro has just had to post those same links multiple times, because without fail there are always applicants that haven't done enough research in this regard. I remember thxleave (you can check out posts here and on valuemd), who graduated from SGU in 2017 I believe. I remember him, because I actually remember his posts from when I was applying, and I remember thinking he was going to do fine and overcome the hurdles of being an SGU grad. He didn't match. He wasn't applying ortho by the way, it was psychiatry.

He's in a good place now (not working as a physician), but working in a job that he's happy with. If you want you can search the forums for his posts and see for yourself what can happen as an SGU grad with pretty good Step scores.

...5. Oh I read that Tameer SGU post a while back but if you actually read all the details, she admits she was not a good student and was sidetracked. That's why the original link to that article is no longer active...

Don't know anything about Tameer, so won't comment.

...6. You're a DO guy right, you should be able to shed some light on how competitive the process is for DO schools and that a spot is not even guaranteed after multiple cycles. So that's why people are ending up at SGU because they can get through the STEP's and match because they have that drive and SGU gives them the opportunity. The big mistake is to bunch all SGU applicants together. Some have it and some don't.

I applied and got into SGU and Ross (never finished my apps for AUC, Saba and AUA). I was right there with you when I applied for med school. I'm glad I took the time and realized DO was the right choice. Since that time, honestly things have only gotten worse. SGU grads did better 10 yrs ago than they're doing now. Its unfortunate, but its the way things have changed with literally 10,000 more AMGs being added with much less GME expansion.

You haven't taken the MCAT yet, but are aiming for 500-505. You can probably do better if you really buckle down, study, and take more practice tests. I don't know what your GPA is like, but if you can do well on the MCAT and have >2.8 GPAs, its worth it to apply broadly DO before trying to take a shortcut with SGU. SGU will be there if you want them. Its honestly worth a year to try and stay stateside (on a side note, I probably wouldn't do an SMP, DO or MD, unless there's clear linkage and you know you'll do well). If you don't want to spend a multiple years, sure, that's up to you and I get it, just know what you're getting yourself into and don't be fooled by the hype.

Quoting this whole thing is painful but what experience do you have with SGU students? You're saying an awful lot there and I disagree with every point.

You're disagreeing because you honestly don't have as much experience. I don't mean that as an insult. How could you get the experience as a pre-med? Its OK to not have experience, that's what life is for. That's also what this forum is for. Its here so you can gain from the experience of others.

As far as my experience, I know many SGU grads. I grew up with more than a handful (and about a handful of dropouts as well). I also work with grads from SGU, but also Saba and Ross. I also have a couple friends that I grew with that went to AUC, and I know a couple others that didn't make it through AUA.

As I alluded to above, I also went through the same process that you are. I also heard the same propaganda, about how "you can truly succeed at SGU", "it gives you an option to fulfill your dream", and all that jazz. I also interviewed with a local grad that was doing well in a subspecialty and made it seem like SGU was the way to go (they actually pay these people a pretty penny to "interview" prospective SGU students). It was so much that if you actually hunt down some of my old posts from when I was applying, you'll see I was seriously considering Carib too.

It wasn't until I really dug into where SGU grads end up en masse, the potential hurdles being an IMG holds even from just a licensing standpoint, and the actual value of a Carib MD in the US and abroad (hint: its not anywhere close to as valuable as a US MD degree even though it sounds the same), that I realized it was the far more risky way to go. At the time, I actually knew far fewer DOs than Carib grads, which probably contributed to my apprehension of the degree.

 

[johncstudent32]

The 85% that you are quoting (I actually believe the report from 2013 - the only one I know of that actually separate people in terms of the Carib island their school is on - shows a match rate of 67% for Grenada, if you have another source, please post it) is of those that actually graduate and apply, a number much smaller than those who start. <50% of people who start will match.



They aren't the only ones that have those agreements. Actually Ross, AUC, and even AUA have similar agreements with hospitals. The thing that you should realize is that those are constantly in flux. This is actually true for US MD and DO schools that don't have their own dedicated teaching hospitals as well, but those schools are under pressure from US accrediting agencies and federal education laws. Those spots seriously change year to year. Contracts end, prices go up, and people's rotations get dropped.

I don't believe you have done enough research on SGU having "enough" 3rd year spots, unless by "research" you mean you asked an SGU rep and they reassured you that this was the case.

I commend you on only considering SGU, because I agree of the Carib, anything outside of SGU, Ross, and AUC would be a just foolish. That doesn't mean its a good choice though.



There are many more recent stories. Goro has just had to post those same links multiple times, because without fail there are always applicants that haven't done enough research in this regard. I remember thxleave (you can check out posts here and on valuemd), who graduated from SGU in 2017 I believe. I remember him, because I actually remember his posts from when I was applying, and I remember thinking he was going to do fine and overcome the hurdles of being an SGU grad. He didn't match. He wasn't applying ortho by the way, it was psychiatry.

He's in a good place now (not working as a physician), but working in a job that he's happy with. If you want you can search the forums for his posts and see for yourself what can happen as an SGU grad with pretty good Step scores.



Don't know anything about Tameer, so won't comment.



I applied and got into SGU and Ross (never finished my apps for AUC, Saba and AUA). I was right there with you when I applied for med school. I'm glad I took the time and realized DO was the right choice. Since that time, honestly things have only gotten worse. SGU grads did better 10 yrs ago than they're doing now. Its unfortunate, but its the way things have changed with literally 10,000 more AMGs being added with much less GME expansion.

You haven't taken the MCAT yet, but are aiming for 500-505. You can probably do better if you really buckle down, study, and take more practice tests. I don't know what your GPA is like, but if you can do well on the MCAT and have >2.8 GPAs, its worth it to apply broadly DO before trying to take a shortcut with SGU. SGU will be there if you want them. Its honestly worth a year to try and stay stateside (on a side note, I probably wouldn't do an SMP, DO or MD, unless there's clear linkage and you know you'll do well). If you don't want to spend a multiple years, sure, that's up to you and I get it, just know what you're getting yourself into and don't be fooled by the hype.



You're disagreeing because you honestly don't have as much experience. I don't mean that as an insult. How could you get the experience as a pre-med? Its OK to not have experience, that's what life is for. That's also what this forum is for. Its here so you can gain from the experience of others.

As far as my experience, I know many SGU grads. I grew up with more than a handful (and about a handful of dropouts as well). I also work with grads from SGU, but also Saba and Ross. I also have a couple friends that I grew with that went to AUC, and I know a couple others that didn't make it through AUA.

As I alluded to above, I also went through the same process that you are. I also heard the same propaganda, about how "you can truly succeed at SGU", "it gives you an option to fulfill your dream", and all that jazz. I also interviewed with a local grad that was doing well in a subspecialty and made it seem like SGU was the way to go (they actually pay these people a pretty penny to "interview" prospective SGU students). It was so much that if you actually hunt down some of my old posts from when I was applying, you'll see I was seriously considering Carib too.

It wasn't until I really dug into where SGU grads end up en masse, the potential hurdles being an IMG holds even from just a licensing standpoint, and the actual value of a Carib MD in the US and abroad (hint: its not anywhere close to as valuable as a US MD degree even though it sounds the same), that I realized it was the far more risky way to go. At the time, I actually knew far fewer DOs than Carib grads, which probably contributed to my apprehension of the degree.

I do appreciate the effort you have put into your last two posts but you are presenting 50% anecdotal information and 50% your opinions.

Firstly, I would never compare SGU's clinical location setup to ANY other Caribbean medical school and you can go verify that with some of the members here who graduated from SGU. The setup is vastly different and the price tag SGU pays for those spots is vastly different. That is the main reason for going to SGU and not another school.

I do understand your position on DO and I don't disagree with any of it. I was just inquiring about SGU. I still have to take the MCAT but SGU does allow a start for August whereas a DO or SMP app is for next year. So I hope you understand why people like myself bring SGU into the equation.

Everybody does not share the same goals as it pertains to becoming a doctor. Some want to change the world, some want to become wealthy, some want prestige, some want to compete with their fellow doctors, and others want an MD (or DO) to work as doctors and make a difference in their communities. If SGU makes that a little more accessible and a little faster with less risk then its something people like me will consider.

Some people might disagree with me but once you have your degree, any doctor is a good doctor...IMG included.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If SGU makes that a little more accessible and a little faster with less risk then its something people like me will consider.

You're gonna have to pay the troll toll for that one bro

 

[johncstudent32]

You're gonna have to pay the troll toll for that one bro

Oh I'm sorry. I'll write the whole thought out for you so you understand.

SGU is "less risky" than applying to another Caribbean school.

I think the Dr. above me was able figure that out my stance quite easily.

And now you're on ignore!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

What's your plan if you commit malpractice and lose your license?

See what I did there?

Both are bad decisions.

 

[gonnif]

Ok boys, unless we are going to call in a board certified urologist to determine the winner of this pissing contest, can we get on to the question at hand:

1) While the Caribbean does produce thousand of successful graduates a year who go on to residencies and clinical practice, it leaves thousands more who start school but who never graduate and/or never get a residency slot and therefore never practice clinical medicine

2) as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.

3) NYC does not directly control lits 11 hospitals as they belong to a technically separate nonprofit entity called the health and hospitals corporation (HHC) that came out of the municipal financial crisis in the 1970s. Since they had difficulty attracting doctors to these places, the city was instrumental in getting the state to approve several off shore medical schools for extended clinical rotations en masse with the hope af snagging students for prematch residency. SGU had long-term contracts where they paid HHC for clinical rotation slots. This is why SGU seems to have inordinate amount of grads in NYC ares

4) Based on SGU's own published numbers 93% of its eligible graduate placed into a residency slot. Placing means that a graduate got a position outside of the match either by prematch, post-match SOAP, or gaining an individual contract for a position later on. SGU further reports that "[on] average, 29 percent of our graduating classes obtain residencies that are not through the National Residency Match Program." ( https://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2018) This would would mean that 64% of graduates actually matched.

Additionally, again looking at enrollment numbers from SGU website ( https://www.sgu.edu/enrollment-and-demographics-school-of-medicine/#tab-id-1 ), 5999 total students are enrolled in 4-year MD, meaning about 1500 year. Of these 88% are US citizens or Permanent Residents and would likely be US-bound for medical residency. (Likely more non-citizens/non-PR sought US medical residency so this number is likely higher but I will remain conservative) This would mean 1320 students in first year who are US residency-bound. Additionally, SGU reports 6.1% attrition rate so about 80 students will drop out, leaving about 1240 US residency-bound students who earn a degree. Looking at the residency reported by SGU, of the 960+ residencies, 935 are US medical residencies (others are Canadian, UK and elsewhere). If 935 US Citizens or PR represents 93% of those who graduated/applied for residency slots, that would mean 1005 were in the graduate/residency pool. My question is, what happened to the other at least 235 US Citizens/PR students who SGU's numbers suggest they earned a degree but seem to disappear from the residency counts? Suggesting that these may be those who took 5 years or more to earn a degree or those who didnt get a residency slot first time applying to NRMP would not be an explanation as these numbers would likely be similar per year and thus average out. These numbers presented by SGU do not add up

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Oh I'm sorry. I'll write the whole thought out for you so you understand.

SGU is "less risky" than applying to another Caribbean school.

I think the Dr. above me was able figure that out my stance quite easily.

And now you're on ignore!

Clearly you've never watched It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia....

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Some people might disagree with me but once you have your degree, any doctor is a good doctor...IMG included.
Nope. I've seen plenty of bad doctors. Some intentionally, some from poor training.
Look, I always say, Life is full of choices. Make good ones. Going to the Caribbean carries the highest risk. @Goro is fond of saying pre meds all think they are going to come in at the end of the game to sink a 3 pointer to win. All those who flunked out of SGU didnt start there thinking they were going to fail.
If you think you can rock it at SGU, you can rock it in DO school. I have students training at Hopkins, Penn State, UF IM, Mayo Jackonsville, etc.
So many more DO and MD schools coming on line will present increased competition. If you think coming from SGU puts you in a good position to compete, have at it Hoss! Good luck and best wishes!

 

[johncstudent32]

Ok boys, unless we are going to call in a board certified urologist to determine the winner of this pissing contest, can we get on to the question at hand:

1) While the Caribbean does produce thousand of successful graduates a year who go on to residencies and clinical practice, it leaves thousands more who start school but who never graduate and/or never get a residency slot and therefore never practice clinical medicine

2) as I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.

3) NYC does not directly control lits 11 hospitals as they belong to a technically separate nonprofit entity called the health and hospitals corporation (HHC) that came out of the municipal financial crisis in the 1970s. Since they had difficulty attracting doctors to these places, the city was instrumental in getting the state to approve several off shore medical schools for extended clinical rotations en masse with the hope af snagging students for prematch residency. SGU had long-term contracts where they paid HHC for clinical rotation slots. This is why SGU seems to have inordinate amount of grads in NYC ares

4) Based on SGU's own published numbers 93% of its eligible graduate placed into a residency slot. Placing means that a graduate got a position outside of the match either by prematch, post-match SOAP, or gaining an individual contract for a position later on. SGU further reports that "[on] average, 29 percent of our graduating classes obtain residencies that are not through the National Residency Match Program." ( https://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2018) This would would mean that 64% of graduates actually matched.

Additionally, again looking at enrollment numbers from SGU website ( https://www.sgu.edu/enrollment-and-demographics-school-of-medicine/#tab-id-1 ), 5999 total students are enrolled in 4-year MD, meaning about 1500 year. Of these 88% are US citizens or Permanent Residents and would likely be US-bound for medical residency. (Likely more non-citizens/non-PR sought US medical residency so this number is likely higher but I will remain conservative) This would mean 1320 students in first year who are US residency-bound. Additionally, SGU reports 6.1% attrition rate so about 80 students will drop out, leaving about 1240 US residency-bound students who earn a degree. Looking at the residency reported by SGU, of the 960+ residencies, 935 are US medical residencies (others are Canadian, UK and elsewhere). If 935 US Citizens or PR represents 93% of those who graduated/applied for residency slots, that would mean 1005 were in the graduate/residency pool. My question is, what happened to the other at least 235 US Citizens/PR students who SGU's numbers suggest they earned a degree but seem to disappear from the residency counts? Suggesting that these may be those who took 5 years or more to earn a degree or those who didnt get a residency slot first time applying to NRMP would not be an explanation as these numbers would likely be similar per year and thus average out. These numbers presented by SGU do not add up

My problem with this response is that you keep asking about some nameless students who did not match and some of us do not care about everybody else's journey. If I apply to SGU, I care about me, I don't care about the end match rate because I know some people will work harder than others and then some people are not cut out to become doctors.

Why is it so hard to comprehend that some people go to SGU who should not be in medical school in the first place and who realize during their time at SGU that they really had no idea what they signed up for and medicine was not for them?

Once we can agree on that, then we can have a more productive discussion.

We have to get away from this idea that a Caribbean school is bad because everybody doesn't match. Some of us don't care about the others.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Why is it so hard to comprehend that some people go to SGU who should not be in medical school in the first place and who realize during their time at SGU that they really had no idea what they signed up for and medicine was not for them?

Once we can agree on that, then we can have a more productive discussion.

We already agree on that bro. Full stop.

If I apply to SGU, I care about me, I don't care about the end match rate because I know some people will work harder than others and then some people are not cut out to become doctors.

What you seem to be incapable of comprehending is that every single person that starts at SGU thinks this exact thing. And 50% of you won't ever make it to the finish line. If you like those odds then go right ahead.

 

[Goro]

My problem with this response is that you keep asking about some nameless students who did not match and some of us do not care about everybody else's journey. If I apply to SGU, I care about me, I don't care about the end match rate because I know some people will work harder than others and then some people are not cut out to become doctors.

Why is it so hard to comprehend that some people go to SGU who should not be in medical school in the first place and who realize during their time at SGU that they really had no idea what they signed up for and medicine was not for them?

Once we can agree on that, then we can have a more productive discussion.

We have to get away from this idea that a Caribbean school is bad because everybody doesn't match. Some of us don't care about the others.

I can see that you have already made up your mind, are engaging in magic thinking and are also unteachable. The latter trait gets people kicked out of residency programs. Just a word of warning.

Don't bother replying; I'm going to model good SDN behvaior and use the Ignore function.

 

[johncstudent32]

I can see that you have already made up your mind, are engaging in magic thinking and are also unteachable. The latter trait gets people kicked out of residency programs. Just a word of warning.

Don't bother replying; I'm going to model good SDN behvaior and use the Ignore function.

Yeah, be sure to share that info. with the SGU attendings that I shadowed. I'm sure we can all use a good laugh.

 

[gonnif]

My problem with this response is that you keep asking about some nameless students who did not match and some of us do not care about everybody else's journey. If I apply to SGU, I care about me, I don't care about the end match rate because I know some people will work harder than others and then some people are not cut out to become doctors.

Why is it so hard to comprehend that some people go to SGU who should not be in medical school in the first place and who realize during their time at SGU that they really had no idea what they signed up for and medicine was not for them?

Once we can agree on that, then we can have a more productive discussion.

We have to get away from this idea that a Caribbean school is bad because everybody doesn't match. Some of us don't care about the others.

1) any physician should look at the overall treatments / outcomes and consider risks and percentages for their patients. Any prospective physician who would be well advised to do the same for their own careers, especially since all the professional and financial risks falls on themselves

2) With a school like SGU, which claims percentages and statistics that their own numbers do not support, are you so certain that you can so trust your abilities over an educational system that can't even accurately represent their success rate

3) As we move forward with a 40% increase in US MD/Grads in the 10 years that will end in 2023 and at best, a 10-15% increase in residency slots, no matter how good your perceived abilities are, the system will always be increasingly working against you

3) and I always say, applicants need to consider at least 2 cycles in US MD/ DO before considering off shore schools.

4) So take this in the spirit in which is given: put your freaking oversized ego and academic macho attitude, remove your cranium from the lower end of your GI tract, which appears so far embedded that I cant decide if colorectal specialist or oral surgeon would be a better consult, and stop being so defensive and absolutely sure of yourself. This information and advice is given so you can make an informed decision and not and emotional one based on your self-perceived abilities. To paraphrase a oft-told legal adage, any physician that treats himself, has a corpse for a patient

 

[johncstudent32]

1) any physician should look at the overall treatments / outcomes and consider risks and percentages for their patients. Any prospective physician who would be well advised to do the same for their own careers, especially since all the professional and financial risks falls on themselves

2) With a school like SGU, which claims percentages and statistics that their own numbers do not support, are you so certain that you can so trust your abilities over an educational system that can even accurately represent their success rate

3) As we move forward with a 40% increase in US MD/Grads in the 10 years that will end in 2023 and at best, a 10-15% increase in residency slots, no matter how good your perceived abilities are, the system will always be increasingly working against you

3) and I always say, applicants need to consider at least 2 cycles in US MD/ DO before considering off shore schools.

4) So take this in the spirit in which is given: put your freaking oversized ego and academic macho attitude, remove your cranium from the lower end of your GI tract, which appears so far embedded that I cant decide if colorectal specialist or oral surgeon would be a better consult, and stop being so defensive and absolutely sure of yourself. This information and advice is given so you can make an informed decision and not and emotional one based on your self-perceived abilities. To paraphrase a oft-told legal adage, any physician that treats himself, has a corpse for a patient

That last part is unprofessional man.

If you need to get a point across, you have to find another way to do it.

And you're lecturing me on the quality of students that apply Caribbean? lol Give me a break.

 

[deleted859689]

If you go to the carib, keep a blog and keep us updated. I want to hear a good success story (or a not-so-successful story). I'm sure it will be the former since it's you and not someone else.

That last part is unprofessional man.

If you need to get a point across, you have to find another way to do it.

And you're lecturing me on the quality of students that apply Caribbean? lol Give me a break.

All your posts seemed rather inflammatory - you brought the criticism upon yourself imo. Go to the Carib and be a doctor. No one here is stopping you, just giving their opinions. Prove them wrong.

 

[johncstudent32]

If you go to the carib, keep a blog and keep us updated. I want to hear a good success story (or a not-so-successful story). I'm sure it will be the former since it's you and not someone else.



All your posts seemed rather inflammatory - you brought the criticism upon yourself imo. Go to the Carib and be a doctor. No one here is stopping you, just giving their opinions. Prove them wrong.

Asking a question and then countering a question does not equal "inflammatory" so don't even go there.

I didn't bring anything on myself. I asked about SGU and got a bunch of opinions from people who don't even go to the school.

I don't need to prove anything to anybody lol. I honestly don't think this group is getting it and I don't know why. Maybe a current SGU matched student can chime in.

 

[deleted859689]

Asking a question and then countering a question does not equal "inflammatory" so don't even go there.

I didn't bring anything on myself. I asked about SGU and got a bunch of opinions from people who don't even go to the school.

I don't need to prove anything to anybody lol. I honestly don't think this group is getting it and I don't know why. Maybe a current SGU matched student can chime in.

You are a lost cause if you can't see why your comments can be seen as inflammatory. Why are you on here? Go to SGU and become a doctor. As for your original statement, no one here denies that going to the Carib is a viable option to becoming a physician. If you go the carib and match in the US, you are on your way to becoming a successful practicing doc. I have a friend interested in surgery currently on the interview trail who goes to SGU. if you have any questions, I will be more than happy to ask her for you. However, she 100% did not recommend SGU for the reasons everyone in this thread has stated. What more do you need to hear either from us or an SGU student? JUST APPLY, GET IN, AND GO.

 

[jurassicpark]

SGU is in the back of my mind. It's an option that's on the table for me.

What I want to know is how do the people here who are saying "Don't go Caribbean" explain it when people do go down that route, specifically the St. George's route, and then succeed?

The way I look at it is if everyone listened to the "Don't go Caribbean" advice then nobody would apply to these schools, they would go out of business, shut down, and then there would be no other option but to apply MD/DO stateside where these same students who are applying to these schools will probably still not be competitive. Now obviously people are still applying to St. George's and matching into residencies so if that is something that is ongoing, how do you explain to a prospective student that the SGU route is still not a viable option to becoming a practicing doc?

I am just going back to the original question here. And quite frankly this question has been answered infinite times in infinite ways. Reading through the thread because I'm bored (the ER is freakin' impacted with admitted patients but don't want to drive home either and have to drive back for admission.. the wife would just have me do chores), I see that Johncstudent32 has made up his mind.

That being said, the only point that to your original question that people are making is : It's a viable option but a gamble. There is NO question, SGU and the other top Caribbean schools have graduated a lot of very fine physicians, I work with and hire them. But there is a trail of casualties of those who couldn't make it, landing them hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and nothing to show for it with percentages that should make any sane person step back and reassess.

There is a reason someone ends up at the Caribbean. And often (I said often, there's always extenuating circumstances) it isn't a pleasant truth that for the most part you just weren't good enough for whatever reason. Oftentimes it's an academic deficiency. And unless you know what that deficiency was whether it was attention issues, study habits, etc and corrected it before getting to the island, odds are it will happen again and crush you. And even if it doesn't, and unless you're on your A-game continuously you may still not make it and match into residency. Or even if you were on your A-game you may not match.

Does this happen to US students too? Of course, but not nearly as high. You're starting off an intense race with a significant handicap you have to overcome, PLUS whatever issue(s) it was that landed you there in the first place. Any of the above can easily not only put you back to just not having an MD but hundreds of thousands you can't pay back. Believe me, I deal with US Medical students and Caribbean Medical school students depending on what hospital I'm plunked at. I have friends that went to Caribbean Medical schools, and I'm talking Big Four and only a little over a half came through with a residency. But I've seen my friends practice at glamorous institutes as well, and some are making bank and can afford the amazing things in life now.

If you KNOW the risks you are taking and it's spelled out painfully in this thread. And know what you're up against and believe you can make it despite the odds. Then put that $300,000 down and fight on, many people have made it.. but many have not. Good luck!

 

[johncstudent32]

I am just going back to the original question here. And quite frankly this question has been answered infinite times in infinite ways. Reading through the thread because I'm bored (the ER is freakin' impacted with admitted patients but don't want to drive home either and have to drive back for admission.. the wife would just have me do chores), I see that Johncstudent32 has made up his mind.

That being said, the only point that to your original question that people are making is : It's a viable option but a gamble. There is NO question, SGU and the other top Caribbean schools have graduated a lot of very fine physicians, I work with and hire them. But there is a trail of casualties of those who couldn't make it, landing them hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and nothing to show for it with percentages that should make any sane person step back and reassess.

There is a reason someone ends up at the Caribbean. And often (I said often, there's always extenuating circumstances) it isn't a pleasant truth that for the most part you just weren't good enough for whatever reason. Oftentimes it's an academic deficiency. And unless you know what that deficiency was and corrected it before getting to the island, odds are it will happen again and crush you. And even if it doesn't, and unless you're on your A-game continuously you may still not make it and match into residency. Or even if you were on your A-game you may not match.

Does this happen to US students too? Of course, but not nearly as high. You're starting off an intense race with a significant handicap you have to overcome, PLUS whatever issue(s) it was that landed you there in the first place. Any of the above can easily not only put you back to just not having an MD but hundreds of thousands you can't pay back. Believe me, I deal with US Medical students and Caribbean Medical school students depending on what hospital I'm plunked at. I have friends that went to Caribbean Medical schools, and I'm talking Big Four and only a little over a half came through with a residency. But I've seen my friends practice at glamorous institutes as well, and some are making bank as well.

If you KNOW the risks you are taking and it's spelled out painfully in this thread. And know what you're up against and believe you can make it despite the odds. Then put that $300,000 down and fight on, many people have made it.. but many have not. Good luck!

I didn't finish reading this but some of you guys need to get away from the negativity and name calling that someone who wants to apply to a school like SGU is "not good" or "deficient" or something to that effect.

If you are passing all the STEP's and then gaining board certification, I don't think I would make an argument that someone is deficient unless you are trying to say you look down on IMG's and I can't help you there because I don't see it like that.

As far as the "trail of casualties" you are alluding to, I will say it again that if someone gets accepted to SGU with subpar stats, that's not my concern because I don't plan to apply with subpar stats or to apply blindly.

I know the risks of going down the IMG route but like I said earlier, the risks are less with SGU and I kinda was hoping you would be in agreement with that as well but what I gather here is that you seem to be more anti-IMG and then label the success stories as outliers.

That's a bit extreme. Perhaps this particular forum is not the place to have this discussion in which case I would say I was deficient in my judgment.

 

[gonnif]

That last part is unprofessional man.

If you need to get a point across, you have to find another way to do it.

And you're lecturing me on the quality of students that apply Caribbean? lol Give me a break.

Now I truly question your judgement or even simple understanding of getting even the most overarching point of my post. At no time, in any way, shape, or form, do I question or even bring up the quality of students that apply to Caribbean. I do nothing but present the statistics, percentages and factors of how Caribbean schools, by own numbers, represent a risk to students. And perhaps you missed the point because it is no matter how good you are, no matter how hard you may work, the educational structure of the school's and the increasing pressure on residency opportunities will fall squarely on off-shore grads.

 

[deleted859689]

I didn't finish reading this but some of you guys need to get away from the negativity and name calling that someone who wants to apply to a school like SGU is "not good" or "deficient" or something to that effect.

If you are passing all the STEP's and then gaining board certification, I don't think I would make an argument that someone is deficient unless you are trying to say you look down on IMG's and I can't help you there because I don't see it like that.

As far as the "trail of casualties" you are alluding to, I will say it again that if someone gets accepted to SGU with subpar stats, that's not my concern because I don't plan to apply with subpar stats or to apply blindly.

I know the risks of going down the IMG route but like I said earlier, the risks are less with SGU and I kinda was hoping you would be in agreement with that as well but what I gather here is that you seem to be more anti-IMG and then label the success stories as outliers.

That's a bit extreme. Perhaps this particular forum is not the place to have this discussion in which case I would say I was deficient in my judgment.

Wow - this person even deflected JurassicPark's neutral and very coherent and sound answer. He doesn't understand that no one would chose SGU over an MD acceptance due to the significant difference in the chances of matching to the field of your choice. If say a person did choose SGU over US MD, I would have to say yes, that person is still deficient. Very deficient. You are undoubtedly a troll given your responses. I'm out.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I didn't finish reading this but some of you guys need to get away from the negativity and name calling that someone who wants to apply to a school like SGU is "not good" or "deficient" or something to that effect.

People who apply to the carib are 100% not good medical school applicants. Full stop. Every single student at SGU has a reason they are there and not a USMD school, therefore they are all bad medical school applicants and, yes, they are deficient in some way. Every single one. I would say the same for DO applicants but there is a small subset of people who choose DO over USMD for some reason. This does not happen at carib schools. Absolutely no one chooses SGU over any USMD school.

 

[jurassicpark]

I didn't finish reading this but some of you guys need to get away from the negativity and name calling that someone who wants to apply to a school like SGU is "not good" or "deficient" or something to that effect.

If you are passing all the STEP's and then gaining board certification, I don't think I would make an argument that someone is deficient unless you are trying to say you look down on IMG's and I can't help you there because I don't see it like that.

As far as the "trail of casualties" you are alluding to, I will say it again that if someone gets accepted to SGU with subpar stats, that's not my concern because I don't plan to apply with subpar stats or to apply blindly.

I know the risks of going down the IMG route but like I said earlier, the risks are less with SGU and I kinda was hoping you would be in agreement with that as well but what I gather here is that you seem to be more anti-IMG and then label the success stories as outliers.

That's a bit extreme. Perhaps this particular forum is not the place to have this discussion in which case I would say I was deficient in my judgment.

Well, thanks for not reading my post then. You would have seen that I am far from anti-IMG. I teach them, I work with them, I hire them, my best friend is an IMG with an amazing story of how he got into residency when by all rights he shouldn't have (look up my old posts). You would have read that my argument was not in deficiency like IQ or ability, but there was deficiency that landed to think Caribbean (ie study habits, etc). And if they're passing their boards, etc then I would say for the most part they overcame them.

If you don't have subpar stats, the point that just about everyone is making: Apply to US first, exhaust that option to the best of your ability first. If you have other options, take them!

The Big Four have a far better reputation than the other Caribbean schools. But you do see the large classes they start off and what they get whittled down by the end of their second or third year. Or those that graduate without a residency. And SGU certainly has the best reputation, but if you can't see why people aren't arguing NOT that it isn't viable, but should be a last resort gamble then there's not much more to say.

 

[shouldigomd]

I am an SGU "success story" and am starting my cardiology fellowship in July. Feel free to pm me if you have any questions about SGU or the process.

 

[johncstudent32]

Well, thanks for not reading my post then. You would have seen that I am far from anti-IMG. I teach them, I work with them, I hire them, my best friend is an IMG with an amazing story of how he got into residency when by all rights he shouldn't have (look up my old posts). You would have read that my argument was not in deficiency like IQ or ability, but there was deficiency that landed to think Caribbean (ie study habits, etc). And if they're passing their boards, etc then I would say for the most part they overcame them.

If you don't have subpar stats, the point that just about everyone is making: Apply to US first, exhaust that option to the best of your ability first. If you have other options, take them!

The Big Four have a far better reputation than the other Caribbean schools. But you do see the large classes they start off and what they get whittled down by the end of their second or third year. Or those that graduate without a residency. And SGU certainly has the best reputation, but if you can't see why people aren't arguing NOT that it isn't viable, but should be a last resort gamble then there's not much more to say.

Interesting how you guys don't speak highly about SGU but you all have "friends" from SGU. I don't think those friends would be too thrilled to hear the SGU bashing.

Let's not say people are deficient. It's in poor taste. If you match from SGU, you become board-certified, and you treat real patients and improve their lives, then you are a good doctor.

If someone fails out of SGU well then OK that person was deficient.

 

[johncstudent32]

I am an SGU "success story" and am starting my cardiology fellowship in July. Feel free to pm me if you have any questions about SGU or the process.

Sure, I'm exhausted with the typing man lol. Didn't expect to type that much today. I have a few questions and I'll send them to you tomorrow. Thanks

 

[Pstar9]

I didn't bring anything on myself. I asked about SGU and got a bunch of opinions from people who don't even go to the school.

You asked about SGU and now you're being dismissive of everyone's opinion just because it's not what you wanted to hear? What did you expect? Unconditional love and support? If you think everyone else is "not getting it" except you, you are probably the issue.

Go wherever is best for your stats and circumstance. No one here wishes you ill will. However, even decent students have a higher chance of failing out of SGU. If that's not you, great. If it does happen...lets just say you dug your grave and now must lie in it.

 

[johncstudent32]

You asked about SGU and now you're being dismissive of everyone's opinion just because it's not what you wanted to hear? What did you expect? Unconditional love and support? If you think everyone else is "not getting it" except you, you are probably the issue.

Go wherever is best for your stats and circumstance. No one here wishes you ill will. However, even decent students have a higher chance of failing out of SGU. If that's not you, great. If it does happen...lets just say you dug your grave and now must lie in it.

You went to SGU man?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I've posted this before, seems worth repeating.

Hopefully a "fair and balanced" review of offshore schools:

The bottom line is that Carib schools (especially Med Schools) are a mixed bag. Calling them "a scam" or "a waste" is ridiculous. Saying that they are "equivalent to US schools" is also untrue:

1. They accept people who cannot get into a US medical school. Whether you see this as "giving deserving people who messed up their GPA / can't do well on the MCAT a second chance" or "leeching tuition off of desperate students who can't get into US medical schools" depends on how you view the situation.

2. Top performers in Carib schools will do fine, and be able to get mid-competitive fields /spots. Anesthesia, EM, Rads, University IM, etc. Ortho/NS/Vascular/Derm is very unlikely even for the top performers, and usually requires years of research and/or connections.

3. Middle performers will also do fine, but often end up in FM / Community IM / peds / Psych / Neuro / Path. Nothing wrong with those fields, but those attending Carib schools should understand that their choices may be limited.

4. Those at the bottom of their class, failing a class, or worse failing a step, often have much more problems. Students retake, pass, and then think everything will be OK, and it might not be. These students might still match, but it's much harder.

4b. Everyone thinks they will be in the top 25%. Only 25% can be in the top 25%. No one can tell if that's going to be you.

5. A reasonable percentage of all students starting in carib schools fail out in the first 2 years. Exactly how high that percentage is, is unclear. It clearly varies by school. Some see this as "The school takes more students than it has clinical spots for, and then fails them out to make more money". Others see it as "These schools know that some percentage of students will fail out. Rather than leave clinical spots empty, they take enough pre-clinical students so that their clinical spots are filled -- this offers the maximum number of students an opportunity to be a physician". The crux is whether the pass level is adjusted specifically to fail out people, or whether it's set at some reasonable benchmark and some people happen to fail.

The other part of this discussion usually revolves around "Well, the school takes people with very low MCAT's and then they fail out -- it's a scam and they should have a higher MCAT cutoff". Data from the LCME shows that lower MCAT scores tend to be associated with failing the USMLE. But population statistics don't tell you how any one person will do -- some people with low MCAT's do just fine. So, again, how you interpret this depends upon how you look at it.

6. Not all schools are created equal. The most established schools are SGU and Ross, and from my viewpoint the two are probably equivalent. SGU appears to be more expensive (although prices change, this may not be accurate in the future). Ross appears to take more students and appears to have a higher drop out rate, although no school publishes their drop out rate so it's hard to be certain. Ross has recently had major problems with a hurricaine severely damaging Dominica, and exactly how it is going to recover/deal with this is unclear. AUC and Saba are often included in the "top 4", AUC is on the "best/safest" (but most expensive) island (also damaged by hurricaine), and Saba is often touted as the cheapest. There are many others of varying quality -- expect higher drop out rates and worse match outcomes.

6a. If a medical school you are looking at doesn't require the MCAT, that's a very bad sign.

7. If you fail out of med school, or can't match to a residency, you really have limited options. A partial MD is of no value. An MD without a residency is also of very limited value, especially an international degree. People talk about "consulting", but I've never seen that actually happen. There are several stories of people getting jobs working for insurance companies, or state disability office, etc. These positions don't pay well, but at least they are something and might qualify for PSLF.

8. If you fail out of school, or can't find a residency because of poor performance, your loans are non-dischargable. Paying them off is very difficult. PSLF or "extreme hardship" may be able to discharge them after 10+ years. if you have a cosigner, they are on the hook just as much as you. I would not recommend that anyone go to a carib medical school if a family member / friend needs to cosign loans.

9. US med schools have increased their class size. Residency spots are also increasing slowly. So far, it hasn't been a problem. It may be that as time goes forward, that IMG's will have further trouble getting even IM and FM spots and the change might happen between the time you matriculate and graduate. But, the opposite might be true also -- spots might grow at a higher rate than students.

So: Going to a Carib school is an uphill process. You need to work harder and be better than your US colleagues to do "equally" well. Carib schools often tout their successes, and ignore the students who never make it to graduation, are only able to get a prelim spot, or not match at all. Yet, at the better carib schools, the majority of students probably succeed (again, difficult to say due to lack of transparency), mainly in the primary care fields. Advertising from these schools (on their websites) doesn't do a great job of balancing these risks and benefits. Threads on SDN tend to tout the negatives, which is probably healthy so that prospective students see the dangers involved.

 

[johncstudent32]

I've posted this before, seems worth repeating.

Hopefully a "fair and balanced" review of offshore schools:

The bottom line is that Carib schools (especially Med Schools) are a mixed bag. Calling them "a scam" or "a waste" is ridiculous. Saying that they are "equivalent to US schools" is also untrue:

1. They accept people who cannot get into a US medical school. Whether you see this as "giving deserving people who messed up their GPA / can't do well on the MCAT a second chance" or "leeching tuition off of desperate students who can't get into US medical schools" depends on how you view the situation.

2. Top performers in Carib schools will do fine, and be able to get mid-competitive fields /spots. Anesthesia, EM, Rads, University IM, etc. Ortho/NS/Vascular/Derm is very unlikely even for the top performers, and usually requires years of research and/or connections.

3. Middle performers will also do fine, but often end up in FM / Community IM / peds / Psych / Neuro / Path. Nothing wrong with those fields, but those attending Carib schools should understand that their choices may be limited.

4. Those at the bottom of their class, failing a class, or worse failing a step, often have much more problems. Students retake, pass, and then think everything will be OK, and it might not be. These students might still match, but it's much harder.

4b. Everyone thinks they will be in the top 25%. Only 25% can be in the top 25%. No one can tell if that's going to be you.

5. A reasonable percentage of all students starting in carib schools fail out in the first 2 years. Exactly how high that percentage is, is unclear. It clearly varies by school. Some see this as "The school takes more students than it has clinical spots for, and then fails them out to make more money". Others see it as "These schools know that some percentage of students will fail out. Rather than leave clinical spots empty, they take enough pre-clinical students so that their clinical spots are filled -- this offers the maximum number of students an opportunity to be a physician". The crux is whether the pass level is adjusted specifically to fail out people, or whether it's set at some reasonable benchmark and some people happen to fail.

The other part of this discussion usually revolves around "Well, the school takes people with very low MCAT's and then they fail out -- it's a scam and they should have a higher MCAT cutoff". Data from the LCME shows that lower MCAT scores tend to be associated with failing the USMLE. But population statistics don't tell you how any one person will do -- some people with low MCAT's do just fine. So, again, how you interpret this depends upon how you look at it.

6. Not all schools are created equal. The most established schools are SGU and Ross, and from my viewpoint the two are probably equivalent. SGU appears to be more expensive (although prices change, this may not be accurate in the future). Ross appears to take more students and appears to have a higher drop out rate, although no school publishes their drop out rate so it's hard to be certain. Ross has recently had major problems with a hurricaine severely damaging Dominica, and exactly how it is going to recover/deal with this is unclear. AUC and Saba are often included in the "top 4", AUC is on the "best/safest" (but most expensive) island (also damaged by hurricaine), and Saba is often touted as the cheapest. There are many others of varying quality -- expect higher drop out rates and worse match outcomes.

6a. If a medical school you are looking at doesn't require the MCAT, that's a very bad sign.

7. If you fail out of med school, or can't match to a residency, you really have limited options. A partial MD is of no value. An MD without a residency is also of very limited value, especially an international degree. People talk about "consulting", but I've never seen that actually happen. There are several stories of people getting jobs working for insurance companies, or state disability office, etc. These positions don't pay well, but at least they are something and might qualify for PSLF.

8. If you fail out of school, or can't find a residency because of poor performance, your loans are non-dischargable. Paying them off is very difficult. PSLF or "extreme hardship" may be able to discharge them after 10+ years. if you have a cosigner, they are on the hook just as much as you. I would not recommend that anyone go to a carib medical school if a family member / friend needs to cosign loans.

9. US med schools have increased their class size. Residency spots are also increasing slowly. So far, it hasn't been a problem. It may be that as time goes forward, that IMG's will have further trouble getting even IM and FM spots and the change might happen between the time you matriculate and graduate. But, the opposite might be true also -- spots might grow at a higher rate than students.

So: Going to a Carib school is an uphill process. You need to work harder and be better than your US colleagues to do "equally" well. Carib schools often tout their successes, and ignore the students who never make it to graduation, are only able to get a prelim spot, or not match at all. Yet, at the better carib schools, the majority of students probably succeed (again, difficult to say due to lack of transparency), mainly in the primary care fields. Advertising from these schools (on their websites) doesn't do a great job of balancing these risks and benefits. Threads on SDN tend to tout the negatives, which is probably healthy so that prospective students see the dangers involved.

Good points but for the sake of this particular thread I was talking about SGU. I couldn't give you an explanation why anybody would pay money to attend another school.

As far as SGU, I believe the overall calibre of student is different and that lends to a better chance of making it out of the program and into a residency.

As far as the low performs well they shouldn't apply. But I would think most reasonable people are mature enough to understand their strengths and if they can handle medical school.

 

[deleted1011020]

How many times are we going to beat this dead horse?

Its a bad move and should be left absolute, and I mean ABSOLUTE dead last resort with the understanding that its an essentially 50/50 if not worse chance of becoming a physician.

 

[johncstudent32]

How many times are we going to beat this dead horse?

Its a bad move and should be left absolute, and I mean ABSOLUTE dead last resort with the understanding that its an essentially 50/50 if not worse chance of becoming a physician.

You haven't been there so I don't know what qualifies you or anybody to be calling it an "absolute" last resort. Let the SGU graduates decide that. Fair?

 

[deleted1011020]

You haven't been there so I don't know what qualifies you or anybody to be calling it an "absolute" last resort. Let the SGU graduates decide that. Fair?

Quite a bit of my coworkers were scribes who didn't match after going to the Caribbean. Ill let you guess the kind of wisdom they had about going.

Also what makes an SGU graduate qualified? You'd in my opinion get the same kind of answers. Polarized testimony from "it went great" to "itll ruin your life".

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You went to SGU man?

Good points but for the sake of this particular thread I was talking about SGU. I couldn't give you an explanation why anybody would pay money to attend another school.

As far as SGU, I believe the overall calibre of student is different and that lends to a better chance of making it out of the program and into a residency.

As far as the low performs well they shouldn't apply. But I would think most reasonable people are mature enough to understand their strengths and if they can handle medical school.

You haven't been there so I don't know what qualifies you or anybody to be calling it an "absolute" last resort. Let the SGU graduates decide that. Fair?

I thought you were exhausted of typing?

 

[johncstudent32]

Quite a bit of my coworkers were scribes who didn't match after going to the Caribbean. Ill let you guess the kind of wisdom they had about going.

Also what makes an SGU graduate qualified? You'd in my opinion get the same kind of answers. Polarized testimony from "it went great" to "itll ruin your life".

Oh IDK, maybe because THEY WENT TO SGU! lol