hospitals don't hire podiatric physicians?

[pipetman]

I went to a meeting at my school and was told that hospitals don't hire pods, and your only option is private practice. is this true, and if so, why?

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[HenryH]

I'm also curious about this; I've heard of podiatrists in my area being "on staff" at various hospitals, but there isn't a single one employed full-time at any of the 5 hospitals here. Is it just less common for podiatrists to work for hospitals than it is for other physicians?

Also, just curious...what's the point of being "on staff" at a hospital? Does that mean you just take call from time to time, etc.?

 

[DPMstudent]

I know at the Cleveland Clinic theres about 8 podiatrists that work there full time I believe. Probably depends where you live.

 

[DJ Quik]

There are several Options, some hospitals here do hire Pods, and some 'rent out' space for the Pods. One of the Drs I shadowed told me that the benifit of being associated with a hospital is you don't need to maintain an OR, you can just do your surgeries and not have to worry about the overhead.

 

[NatCh]

There are several Options, some hospitals here do hire Pods, and some 'rent out' space for the Pods. One of the Drs I shadowed told me that the benifit of being associated with a hospital is you don't need to maintain an OR, you can just do your surgeries and not have to worry about the overhead.

The benefit of being on staff at a hospital (i.e., not on their payroll but you have privileges to take care of patients there) is that you can take your surgical cases there and also take care of inpatients. You can also refer your patients for other services such as radiology and laboratory. If not on staff at a hospital then you can either A) not do surgery, B) do surgery in your office, or C) do surgery in your own surgery center where you make the rule that you don't require hospital privileges (every surgery center where I've had privileges required that I also had hospital privileges). Henry, being "on staff" does not necessarily mean your office is located within the hospital walls. It just means you get to take care of patients there.

The benefit of working for a hospital (i.e., on their payroll) is that you don't need to maintain an office, which means you don't have to worry about running a business. The hospital pays for your overhead but they also make a profit off your work (hopefully). The hospital Administration would also make business decisions for you, so you'd be subject to working for The Man. Your income would maybe be less than it would be in private practice but you can concentrate just on practicing podiatry.

Some hospitals rent office space. You'd pay rent just as if you were leasing an office away from the hospital and you'd run your own business affairs for the most part.

To answer the OP's question, some hospitals do hire podiatrists, and private practice is not the only option. You can work for a group, a hospital, an HMO, or the government. There are probably also other scenarios that I'm not thinking of right now.

Nat

 

[Feli]

I went to a meeting at my school and was told that hospitals don't hire pods, and your only option is private practice. is this true, and if so, why?

That's some funny stuff right there. Tell that to the many DPMs who have turned down lucrative hospitals offers to buy out their offices and hire them as a full time employee.

You already got great replies above. There are certainly pros and cons to being a FTE of a hospital or hospital system. With the obvious exceptions like ER, gen surg, intensive care IM, path, etc where you are obviously likely to end up as a FTE of a hospital, the vast majority of docs in general would rather just be in private practice - solo or group - and therefore be their own boss, have a higher income ceiling, etc. Pods are certainly no exception. Having hospital staff privileges is certainly useful to allow a pod (or any other private practice doc) a reliable place to do consults, surgeries, ER call, etc. Being affiliated with one or more hospitals is also a good way to garner referrals and a good reputation.

 

[jonwill]

I went to a meeting at my school and was told that hospitals don't hire pods, and your only option is private practice. is this true, and if so, why?

Absolutely false. I know many pods that work for hospitals. I'm interested to know what school (I hope not podiatry) and who said that.

 

[SportPOD]

Absolutely false. I know many pods that work for hospitals. I'm interested to know what school (I hope not podiatry) and who said that.

Exactly, can you enlighten us on who came out to speak to you about podiatry? Doesn't sound like that speaker is up to date on the podiatry profession.

 

[Sinop]

Like was posted above most docs are not an employee of the hospital. There are many employee's like nurses, physician assistants, cleaning crews but in general very few doctors employed by hospitals. Except for VA systems. There are only a few medical specialties like was mentioned above ER docs, hospitalists that are commonly employed by the hospital. If you want to be a podiatrist employed by the hospital there are opportunities. You will need to weigh the pro's and con's to decide if its right for you.

 

[pipetman]

thanks for the replies, i was getting nervous.

the meeting was at my pod school

i am glad there are options because realistically, when i get out of school and residency i cant imagine having enough money to start my own practice. I would rather work for the man and pay some debt off and save some money first . unless , of course, brandgelina adopts me or i hit the lotto.

(these smilies are addicitve)

 

[Feli]

I went to a meeting at my school and was told that hospitals don't hire pods, and your only option is private practice....

...i was getting nervous.

the meeting was at my pod school

If you go to a pod school in a scope limited state (is that thinly-veiled enough?), then maybe DPMs do have more trouble getting on as FTEs at hospitals since they don't do RF surgery or procedures.

Podiatry is procedural medicine. We do surgery, give injections, perform wound cares, make orthotics, etc. That stuff all takes skill, and it's consequently reimbursed well. Hospitals are all about making money, and that is why you will run across many private practice docs in procedural specialties (pod, derm, ENT, ortho, etc) who received lucrative offers from hospitals trying buy them out. Some guys take the offers and become a FTE of the hospital(s), but most others would rather remain private and in control of their office/staff/etc.

Pod is a fantastic field if you apply yourself. If you were really told "hospitals won't hire pods" at your pod school, then you need to tell them to stop spouting that BS. If you were told that by other students, then tell them it's not true and they are misinformed... refer them to read this thread. Chances are that you are a newer student still in a vulnerable position, so if it was a faculty/admin or practicing DPM who is spreading this rumor (I sure hope not), then you may need to tell someone who can make a difference (your APMSA rep, well respected school alumni, benefactors, etc). It is better not to keep quiet out of fear, though. Dumb pessimistic rumors like this one can spread, and it's better to snub it out ASAP.

 

[MaseratiGT]

If you go to a pod school in a scope limited state (is that thinly-veiled enough?), then maybe DPMs do have more trouble getting on as FTEs at hospitals since they don't do RF surgery or procedures.

Podiatry is procedural medicine. We do surgery, give injections, perform wound cares, make orthotics, etc. That stuff all takes skill, and it's consequently reimbursed well. Hospitals are all about making money, and that is why you will run across many private practice docs in procedural specialties (pod, derm, ENT, ortho, etc) who received lucrative offers from hospitals trying buy them out. Some guys take the offers and become a FTE of the hospital(s), but most others would rather remain private and in control of their office/staff/etc.

Pod is a fantastic field if you apply yourself. If you were really told "hospitals won't hire pods" at your pod school, then you need to tell them to stop spouting that BS. If you were told that by other students, then tell them it's not true and they are misinformed... refer them to read this thread. Chances are that you are a newer student still in a vulnerable position, so if it was a faculty/admin or practicing DPM who is spreading this rumor (I sure hope not), then you may need to tell someone who can make a difference (your APMSA rep, well respected school alumni, benefactors, etc). It is better not to keep quiet out of fear, though. Dumb pessimistic rumors like this one can spread, and it's better to snub it out ASAP.

Getting your APMSA rep to address these issues is a great idea! The reps at my school are well versed to be able to speak about issues like this. Go and talk to one.

 

[JEWmongous]

thanks for the replies, i was getting nervous.

the meeting was at my pod school

i am glad there are options because realistically, when i get out of school and residency i cant imagine having enough money to start my own practice. I would rather work for the man and pay some debt off and save some money first . unless , of course, brandgelina adopts me or i hit the lotto.

(these smilies are addicitve)

Do you go to NYCPM? Sounds like the logic from there

 

[DPMstudent]

i thought i saw that the OP went to scholl

 

[Dr. Agape]

Do you go to NYCPM? Sounds like the logic from there

Why does it sound logical for it to come from NYCPM? Does the school have a history of giving out wrong information?

 

[Feli]

Why does it sound logical for it to come from NYCPM? Does the school have a history of giving out wrong information?

Not necessarily, but there is some pretty old school thinking that goes on there - by both DPMs and MDs - regarding what pods can/should be. Simply looking at the state of podiatry in NY, I would say that they are 10 or 20 years behind most other parts of the country. I see nothing wrong with a medical professional trimming toenails for at-risk diabetics, PVD patients, etc... but when there are a SIGNIFICANT number of pods in NY that basically do nails, orthotics, and not a whole lot else, it doesn't really help our profession's long term goals.

I'm not saying that there are not some good students/faculty/alumni from NYCPM and some good residencies in NY. However, it's not exactly a model state for scope, it's not a school that comes up as a top pod school, and NY is not an area that has residencies putting out a lot of good F&A literature. I don't think you will deny that.

 

[krabmas]

Not necessarily, but there is some pretty old school thinking that goes on there - by both DPMs and MDs - regarding what pods can/should be. Simply looking at the state of podiatry in NY, I would say that they are 10 or 20 years behind most other parts of the country. I see nothing wrong with a medical professional trimming toenails for at-risk diabetics, PVD patients, etc... but when there are a SIGNIFICANT number of pods in NY that basically do nails, orthotics, and not a whole lot else, it doesn't really help our profession's long term goals.

I'm not saying that there are not some good students/faculty/alumni from NYCPM and some good residencies in NY. However, it's not exactly a model state for scope, it's not a school that comes up as a top pod school, and NY is not an area that has residencies putting out a lot of good F&A literature. I don't think you will deny that.

I'd deny it. JK

 

[doclm]

i thought i saw that the OP went to scholl

I believe it was a during a practice management meeting.

 

[pipetman]

Eh, the school does not matter--I have heard this from so many people over the years, mainly from students-but I always thought it was just a myth and never really thought about it until I started school. Like the lack of residency spots. On every interview I went on there was always one student who would mention this with authority and freak the rest of us out when really the opposite is true.



But now I see why groups like the APMSA are so important. There is just so much misinformation being passed around that someone has to shift thru the fiction and let the students know what's up. And that's cool if you are already in pod school. But that has to hurt potential podiatric medical students. Why would anyone want to apply if they are being told all these rumors in undergrand? It seems like other medical professions do not have this problem (well, except for my friends in Carribean but that's a different issue)

 

[APMAHelp]

Every profession has naysayers, but misinformation runs rampant on these message boards. It would be great if we had only those who know what they are talking about answer the technical questions, wouldn't it? There are some really great posters on this site; you all know who they are. Just take everything you read with a grain of salt when there is so much negativity and try to weed through the "junk" to get to the real answers. And seek out those who may be able to give you the straight answers like at AACPM, APMA, and CPME.

 

[JEWmongous]

Every profession has naysayers, but misinformation runs rampant on these message boards. It would be great if we had only those who know what they are talking about answer the technical questions, wouldn't it? There are some really great posters on this site; you all know who they are. Just take everything you read with a grain of salt when there is so much negativity and try to weed through the "junk" to get to the real answers. And seek out those who may be able to give you the straight answers like at AACPM, APMA, and CPME.

Ok, I would like a straight answer please. Why would CPME/APMA/etc allow another pod school to open when there not be enough residency spots for all graduates? It sounds like Western will end up being a strong program; however, a number of graduates are going to be ****ed over and not receive a residency. Ohio is now allowed to have a first year class of 120-125students, Western will be pumping out 50 students, and AZPOD 35 students and that is if they maintain this class size. Considering they just increased the Arizona DO program by 100 students, who knows what will happen. It sounds ridiculous for ohio to jump up its class size, as least AZPOD and Western are part of legit medical universities. I don't see the need there, just gaining more tuition dollars from kids who will most likely flunk out.

Of course you can add residency spots to some programs, but that will diminish the available cases. There is no way enough new residencies will open up in time, that takes years and a lot of dough to accomplish.

If you can, please enlighten me on this issue. I have heard the same thing before "We will have everything worked out and there will not be a residency shortage" but thats to be taken with a grain of salt. Where is the supervision of all this expansion??? One can argue that there is a need for more podiatrists in the United States (in specific areas), but how will they actually work without a residency???

Sorry for sounding like an ***hole.

 

[DPMstudent]

I talked to one doctor who went to OCPM in the 60's or 70's and said his class was around 100+ students, so I don't think they really "jumped up their class size". But, you're right, I don't think there is a real necessity to open a school at Western. Its just all money driven. They're opening up a new Optometry school, where there is no demand and I believe also a new dental school. Western just wants to cash in on some easy $$$

 

[cool_vkb]

It sounds ridiculous for ohio to jump up its class size as least AZPOD and Western are part of legit medical universities. I don't see the need there, just gaining more tuition dollars from kids who will most likely flunk out.

Are you planning to apply this year or not?

 

[JEWmongous]

Are you planning to apply this year or not?

Already did...starting interviews next friday

 

[pipetman]

posted by jewmongous:

k, I would like a straight answer please. Why would CPME/APMA/etc allow another pod school to open when there not be enough residency spots for all graduates? It sounds like Western will end up being a strong program; however, a number of graduates are going to be ****ed over and not receive a residency. Ohio is now allowed to have a first year class of 120-125students, Western will be pumping out 50 students, and AZPOD 35 students and that is if they maintain this class size. Considering they just increased the Arizona DO program by 100 students, who knows what will happen. It sounds ridiculous for ohio to jump up its class size, as least AZPOD and Western are part of legit medical universities. I don't see the need there, just gaining more tuition dollars from kids who will most likely flunk out.

Of course you can add residency spots to some programs, but that will diminish the available cases. There is no way enough new residencies will open up in time, that takes years and a lot of dough to accomplish.

If you can, please enlighten me on this issue. I have heard the same thing before "We will have everything worked out and there will not be a residency shortage" but thats to be taken with a grain of salt. Where is the supervision of all this expansion??? One can argue that there is a need for more podiatrists in the United States (in specific areas), but how will they actually work without a residency???

Sorry for sounding like an ***hole.




THAT IS MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



There will be enough residency spots. I don't know why people who aren't in school keep saying this. Misinformation being passed by people who don't know what they are talking about (AREN'T IN ANY PROGRAM) hurts those who DO want to go into podiatric medicine, who have applied, interviewed and are actually going. Or in undergrad weighing thier options.

Sure, SDN is full of nervous premeds who say things that aren't true, ..it is a public forum. But this profession suffers more than any for the outright misconceptions people come up with. seriously.

Those who are already IN podiatric medical school know this. Talk to your APMSA --they will tell you what the deal is. But of course, if you are not in school that won't help you.

A new podiatric medical school is a plus. there are what, (insert small number here) praticing DPMs and how many millions of people in the US? How many are MD/DO? Way more, but we don't complain when the new DO school opened up last year or cringe when talk of a MD school in Scranton opening up is mentioned. I don't know the numbers but I really doubt one more school or increasing enrollment is something to whinge over. There are so few of us as it is. More students means more interest in the profession which means MAYBE , just maybe pre-med advisors will present podiatric medicine as an option to undergrand students, and finally (with increasing numbers) what a DPM actually does (and the training involved) won't be shrouded in myth for the general public.

Every school wants money. But I can't say that there isn't a need for dentistry or OD OR DPM in that part of the US. Because that is really the goal-to attract students to that region and hope those students stay to service that population. I find it hard to believe its all money driven.

 

[DPMstudent]

I think a lot of demand already is met. You can't just keep opening new schools, soon the market will be saturated.
Just go look on the OD forums and see how they feel about the new school at Western.

 

[hamlinbeach]

posted by jewmongous:
" It sounds ridiculous for ohio to jump up its class size, as least AZPOD and Western are part of legit medical universities."


it seems from your posts that you really hate ocpm... seeing that you have so many negative things to say about it, i HOPE you are not going to waste their time and apply there. there are others who would be genuinely interested in going through the process with them.

 

[DPMstudent]

posted by jewmongous:
" It sounds ridiculous for ohio to jump up its class size, as least AZPOD and Western are part of legit medical universities."


it seems from your posts that you really hate ocpm... seeing that you have so many negative things to say about it, i HOPE you are not going to waste their time and apply there. there are others who would be genuinely interested in going through the process with them.

besides being non factual, but oh well

 

[JEWmongous]

posted by jewmongous:
" It sounds ridiculous for ohio to jump up its class size, as least AZPOD and Western are part of legit medical universities."

it seems from your posts that you really hate ocpm... seeing that you have so many negative things to say about it, i HOPE you are not going to waste their time and apply there. there are others who would be genuinely interested in going through the process with them.

I don't agree with pod schools not affiliated with a university/medical college (ie Free Standing Schools). It is much better for the profession in the long run of things to be part of a comprehensive university. Classes with MD/DO students will put pods on the same playing field and also expose these future doctors what podiatry actually entails. NYCPM and OCPM are the only 2 independent schools left. I feel they are weak on admissions and will let in a number of peeps who are just gonna fail out anyway. Look at the affiliated programs with med schools, their first time pass rate on the part 1 boards will show you a difference right there. None of the schools with mediocre/low rates will advertise this number (seems only AZPOD, DMU, and Scholl make it well known).

I also don't think its necessary for ohio (or any school) to increase their class size. You are just going to let in more bottom barrel applicants who will most likely fail out. I know they have a nice building now, but that does not mean its okay to increase the class size. People can say increasing tuition sucks but compared to MD/DO schools, pod school is cheaper (ex DMU pod is 10K cheaper than DMU-COM). People bash on CSPM (cali) on these forums often, but they stick to a cap of 48 students per class.

Just curious, anybody know the enrollment cap placed on Ohio? Call me crazy, but 120-125 students sounds pretty high to me.

 

[DPMstudent]

The enrollment cap, if you looked at the documents provided in another thread is 125 students. It has probably been around that high for a long time, as OCPM was one of the first podiatry schools (remember how podiatry started - not as MD/DO) and the class sizes their have been 100+ for decades now.

 

[hamlinbeach]

I also don't think its necessary for ohio (or any school) to increase their class size. You are just going to let in more bottom barrel applicants who will most likely fail out. I know they have a nice building now, but that does not mean its okay to increase the class size. People can say increasing tuition sucks but compared to MD/DO schools, pod school is cheaper (ex DMU pod is 10K cheaper than DMU-COM). People bash on CSPM (cali) on these forums often, but they stick to a cap of 48 students per class.

Just curious, anybody know the enrollment cap placed on Ohio? Call me crazy, but 120-125 students sounds pretty high to me.

http://www.apma.org/s_apma/bin.asp?CID=299&DID=9191&DOC=FILE.PDF

that has all of the enrollment caps.

as you can see, OCPM is not above the enrollment cap. that limit is set by the cpme. Yes, OCPM moved to a new bulding, however there wasn't much financial constraint associated with that move; a grant from the Cleveland Clinic covered the cost to buy and renovate the new building. Thus there was no need to "increase class size" to pay for it as you are suggesting, you are wrong. OCPM has always had a high number of students because the facilities are large enough to comfortably hold and educate that number of people- it is its own school not a program at another university.

People bash OCPM on these forums often, but they stick to a cap of 125 students per class. If you think that the cap itself is to high, that is an issue to take up with cpme.

 

[hamlinbeach]

Classes with MD/DO students will put pods on the same playing field and also expose these future doctors what podiatry actually entails.

just because you aren't taking classes with MD/DO at OCPM doesn't mean they teach some sort of alternate healing method or witchcraft or whatever you are insinuating. The professors and the professors they have from Case Western do not 'go easy' on pod students because they are 'just going to be podiatrists'. they recognize that patient safety is extremely important no matter what medical degree you have, and thus train everyone with that in mind.

Exposing MD/DO's to podiatry largely occurs during residency when all three degrees are rotating together; they find out quickly that we are proficient not only in podiatry, but in "their" medicine as well. If the graduating seniors from OCPM were somehow inept or lacking in education, that would have been correcting a long time ago when residencies would have noticed something was wrong.

OCPM does graduate fewer students than they had first day of 1st year, if you aren't a serious student, or you didn't want to be a podiatrist in the first place, or your parents paid your education and you didnt care what you did for a year then yes you will fail and the school keeps your money. sorry, should have thought about that before skrewing up occured. All the resources necessary to pass boards and your classes are there and are utilized by serious students.

 

[doclm]

[/QUOTE]


THAT IS MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



There will be enough residency spots. I don't know why people who aren't in school keep saying this. Misinformation being passed by people who don't know what they are talking about (AREN'T IN ANY PROGRAM) hurts those who DO want to go into podiatric medicine, who have applied, interviewed and are actually going. Or in undergrad weighing thier options.

Sure, SDN is full of nervous premeds who say things that aren't true, ..it is a public forum. But this profession suffers more than any for the outright misconceptions people come up with. seriously.

Those who are already IN podiatric medical school know this. Talk to your APMSA --they will tell you what the deal is. But of course, if you are not in school that won't help you.

A new podiatric medical school is a plus. there are what, (insert small number here) praticing DPMs and how many millions of people in the US? How many are MD/DO? Way more, but we don't complain when the new DO school opened up last year or cringe when talk of a MD school in Scranton opening up is mentioned. I don't know the numbers but I really doubt one more school or increasing enrollment is something to whinge over. There are so few of us as it is. More students means more interest in the profession which means MAYBE , just maybe pre-med advisors will present podiatric medicine as an option to undergrand students, and finally (with increasing numbers) what a DPM actually does (and the training involved) won't be shrouded in myth for the general public.

Every school wants money. But I can't say that there isn't a need for dentistry or OD OR DPM in that part of the US. Because that is really the goal-to attract students to that region and hope those students stay to service that population. I find it hard to believe its all money driven.[/QUOTE]

Well...there is a current shortage of residency positions starting for the class of 2010. I guess this will be the first time in 15 or so years that there was a shortage in residency spots. From what we were told by our clerkship coordinators that there will be about 60-120 students in the classes of 2010 that will not get a residency program. This may change in the future, but its not like quality programs can be made out of thin air. There needs to be funding and enough cases to increase the number of residents that programs will accept.

As far as saturation of DPM's go, there area some areas that are saturated. (especially around Pod schools and states with abundant # of residency programs. also around urban cities) However, there probably are other areas with shortage of DPMs? (possibly rural underserved areas)

 

[165007]

Well...there is a current shortage of residency positions starting for the class of 2010. I guess this will be the first time in 15 or so years that there was a shortage in residency spots. From what we were told by our clerkship coordinators that there will be about 60-120 students in the classes of 2010 that will not get a residency program. This may change in the future, but its not like quality programs can be made out of thin air. There needs to be funding and enough cases to increase the number of residents that programs will accept.

As far as saturation of DPM's go, there area some areas that are saturated. (especially around Pod schools and states with abundant # of residency programs. also around urban cities) However, there probably are other areas with shortage of DPMs? (possibly rural underserved areas)

60 - 120? That is a lot.

I dont like the idea of increasing the number of residents because then the residents will see less number of cases.

The other day, I was telling my pod friends about the residency shortage, but they thought I was talking trash about the profession. Which leads me to think that there's a lot of people in Podiatry who don't know much about what is going on with the profession. I think they will just end up being disappointed.

 

[JEWmongous]

There will be a residency shortage..whoever told you otherwise is lost in their fairytale land of ice cream, puppy dogs, and polly pockets.

 

[JEWmongous]

60 - 120? That is a lot.

I dont like the idea of increasing the number of residents because then the residents will see less number of cases.

The other day, I was telling my pod friends about the residency shortage, but they thought I was talking trash about the profession. Which leads me to think that there's a lot of people in Podiatry who don't know much about what is going on with the profession. I think they will just end up being disappointed.

I agree. I met a number of people on my interviews who were grossly misinformed about the profession. One tried to convince me that pods do knee surgery. I talked about the upcoming residency shortage with a few kiddies at my Barry interview and they seemed dumbfounded.

 

[SportPOD]

The people who need to worry about residency shortages are the ones that are in the bottom of their classes and socially inept. So that means, if you are currently in the application pool or just thinking about podiatry, the residency shortage doesn't affect you yet, because we won't be able to determine where you stand in classes until you take them.

It's not fair to spout off about residency shortages or talk about how residencies are organized, unless you are involved in the actual process. Yes, there will be a residency shortage. Yes there will be people who may not match at a program. But those are also the people who should have been taken out of the program due to grades or their mouth. Residencies are being developed and new ones have been started. Is this the solution? There is no one set answer, but with demand you need supply.

If you work hard, make decent grades and have a personality that will mesh with others, then you will get a residency. So leave it at that and don't try to predict the future.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Man, that must be depressing to know that there may not be a spot for you anywhere to train, sure it would be partially your fault, but that would suck to have big dept, a family, and a useless degree.

 

[Feli]

I don't agree with pod schools not affiliated with a university/medical college (ie Free Standing Schools). It is much better for the profession in the long run of things to be part of a comprehensive university. Classes with MD/DO students will put pods on the same playing field and also expose these future doctors what podiatry actually entails. NYCPM and OCPM are the only 2 independent schools left. I feel they are weak on admissions and will let in a number of peeps who are just gonna fail out anyway. Look at the affiliated programs with med schools, their first time pass rate on the part 1 boards will show you a difference right there. None of the schools with mediocre/low rates will advertise this number (seems only AZPOD, DMU, and Scholl make it well known).

I also don't think its necessary for ohio (or any school) to increase their class size. You are just going to let in more bottom barrel applicants who will most likely fail out. I know they have a nice building now, but that does not mean its okay to increase the class size. People can say increasing tuition sucks but compared to MD/DO schools, pod school is cheaper (ex DMU pod is 10K cheaper than DMU-COM). People bash on CSPM (cali) on these forums often, but they stick to a cap of 48 students per class.

Just curious, anybody know the enrollment cap placed on Ohio? Call me crazy, but 120-125 students sounds pretty high to me.

You are basically 100% right on everything you just said. To add a bit, Barry is another school that sticks pretty rigidly to its cap; the new building that opened this year has pod classrooms that seat around 75 ppl.

As you know, Feelgood was one of the best on this forum at speaking the candid truth, and now that he no longer posts here, I try to point out facts and dispel dumb rumors/misconceptions from time to time. LCR is also not afraid to do speak his mind and point out glaring weaknesses in the pod profession which need to be fixed (but he is an attending and no longer anywhere near as vulnerable as students are).

Again, even if you are right, you still may want to use a bit more caution since you are not even a pod student yet. You, and even I as a 4th yr pod student, are still in pretty fragile positions. Medicine is based on the military system... orders, ranks, etc. I'm sure you know this, but there are school admins, attending docs, etc who read these forums...

 

[Feli]

...People bash OCPM on these forums often, but they stick to a cap of 125 students per class. If you think that the cap itself is to high, that is an issue to take up with cpme.

I just don't really get why AZ or Western get the flack for the residency shortage. Midwestern passes 100% on boards and their students who make it through to the clinical years are all good to excellent from my personal experience; I expect exactly the same from Western.

OH and NY, the freestanding schools, have pass rates are consistently at or near the lowest of all pod schools, and they are still accredited to take a ton of students. Yes, the schools have been around awhile... call me crazy, but maybe history does not equal quality? Maybe the caps at some schools have a lot to do with simple greed and tuition dollars? I don't know.

I'm obviously not on CPME (or even APMSA), but I don't think one has to be in order to see that something is a bit off here. Feelgood posted on this awhile back, but we need to reduce the caps at the schools that struggle with admissions/boards and let marginal grads through, and to compensate, it would be wise to increase the caps at the schools that are doing great with boards/admissions and consequently graduating the best finished products.

 

[Feli]

... just because you aren't taking classes with MD/DO at OCPM doesn't mean they teach some sort of alternate healing method or witchcraft or whatever you are insinuating. The professors and the professors they have from Case Western ...

That is exactly the problem. That adjunct status tends to split those faculty's focus and makes them use old tests, be inaccesible, etc for the students who go to school at the place (OCPM) that's effectively just a second side job to those CWRU profs. That is unacceptable IMO for key classes such as gross, biochem, histo, neuro, micro, etc. The board pass rate is probably reflective of such practice.

In pod programs that have the support of a major university, those key basic sciences faculty could be full timers, not adjuncts.

 

[Feli]

The people who need to worry about residency shortages are the ones that are in the bottom of their classes and socially inept. So that means, if you are currently in the application pool or just thinking about podiatry, the residency shortage doesn't affect you yet, because we won't be able to determine where you stand in classes until you take them.

It's not fair to spout off about residency shortages or talk about how residencies are organized, unless you are involved in the actual process. Yes, there will be a residency shortage. Yes there will be people who may not match at a program. But those are also the people who should have been taken out of the program due to grades or their mouth. Residencies are being developed and new ones have been started. Is this the solution? There is no one set answer, but with demand you need supply.

If you work hard, make decent grades and have a personality that will mesh with others, then you will get a residency. So leave it at that and don't try to predict the future.

I wholeheartedly agree... most of the ppl who graduate pod schools in the coming years and don't get a residency never should've graduated in the first place. However, those ppl who are marginal grads and don't get a residency still have the same DPM degree. They will potentially go out there untrained to make us all look bad and tarnish the rep of our profession. That hurts everyone - even top students and well trained pods who work very hard. In that regard, a residency shortage can be detrimental... I don't think you'd disagree?

IMHO, the ACFAS sees this coming, and while it's extremely unfortunate, it becomes a viable option for those pods who are well trained to dissociate themselves from the inept and minimally trained.

 

[DPMstudent]

Western should get a lot of well deserved flack for opening 3 new schools with NO demand for any of them. They are going to flood the market with optometry, dental and podiatry students where there is no new demand. If you are worried about residency spots now, why open up new schools? That makes no sense. The only reason Western is doing this is to make an easy buck. It's pretty absurd. Also, it's amazing that people are praising Western so highly already when 1) they clearly are in it for the money - there's especially no demand for a school right next to an already existing school when there are only 8 in the nation (besides the fact that there is already an oversupply of ODs and a new OD school will further hinder that profession) 2) they haven't accepted a student yet, so no one knows their standards 3) they won't be accredited for at least four more years. While there is no real demand for a new podiatry school at the moment, I would wait and give Western some time before writing them off. They may be good and turn out like AZPOD, you never know.

 

[Feli]

...If you are worried about residency spots now, why open up new schools? That makes no sense...

It makes sense if the new school has solid support from a major university and a good curriculum model.

...if that's the case, maybe some of the old schools need their spots reduced to compensate?

 

[DPMstudent]

It makes sense if the new school has solid support from a major university and a good curriculum model.

...if that's the case, maybe some of the old schools need their spots reduced to compensate?

thats fine with me, but as of right now, no one knows what curriculum model they have. they probably won't establish a real system in the new future. it takes a while to work everything out. having a support from a major university doesn't really help a school as much as you think. having professors and other facility integrated into the major parts of the system is what really matters. if you have the support of a big school, but no major players its all for nothing. if someone wanted to lower enrollment caps of various schools, thats fine with me. but to open new schools out of thin air, left and right seems reckless.

 

[hamlinbeach]

You are basically 100% right on everything you just said. To add a bit, Barry is another school that sticks pretty rigidly to its cap; the new building that opened this year has pod classrooms that seat around 75 ppl.

As you know, Feelgood was one of the best on this forum at speaking the candid truth, and now that he no longer posts here, I try to point out facts and dispel dumb rumors/misconceptions from time to time. LCR is also not afraid to do speak his mind and point out glaring weaknesses in the pod profession which need to be fixed (but he is an attending and no longer anywhere near as vulnerable as students are).

Again, even if you are right, you still may want to use a bit more caution since you are not even a pod student yet. You, and even I as a 4th yr pod student, are still in pretty fragile positions. Medicine is based on the military system... orders, ranks, etc. I'm sure you know this, but there are school admins, attending docs, etc who read these forums...

no he is not right about OCPM. the new school seats the same amount as the old school, they have had 100+ for quite some time. they did not have to increase seats in order to fund a move to a new building, it was paid for by the cleveland clinic. i dont understand why you both cont understand that.

 

[DPMstudent]

i think there be some kind of order to doing things correctly
1) lower the caps of huge schools or drastically increase admissions standards - weed out the people necessary (you'll know who when you're in school)
2) establish an effective curriculum - produce a uniformity of students across the nation
3) get enough residencies for all student who are deserving - (which should be everyone after weeding out the bad students)
4) if there is still demand and the know how establish new schools per necessity, up to par with standards - they will obviously be affiliated with a larger university, since that is all there is today

 

[hamlinbeach]

I just don't really get why AZ or Western get the flack for the residency shortage. Midwestern passes 100% on boards and their students who make it through to the clinical years are all good to excellent from my personal experience; I expect exactly the same from Western.

OH and NY, the freestanding schools, have pass rates are consistently at or near the lowest of all pod schools, and they are still accredited to take a ton of students. Yes, the schools have been around awhile... call me crazy, but maybe history does not equal quality? Maybe the caps at some schools have a lot to do with simple greed and tuition dollars? I don't know.

I'm obviously not on CPME (or even APMSA), but I don't think one has to be in order to see that something is a bit off here. Feelgood posted on this awhile back, but we need to reduce the caps at the schools that struggle with admissions/boards and let marginal grads through, and to compensate, it would be wise to increase the caps at the schools that are doing great with boards/admissions and consequently graduating the best finished products.

you dont go to ocpm, you dont know how the professors teach us and you dont know anything about the difficulty of the courses and tests. they do not give us old tests, they write exams for us just like any other professor would do.

they let 120 in but not all graduate, ocpm does have a high attrition rate and when you put in your deposit it was expected of you to study and work hard in order to pass your exams and boards. the students who dont pass are not allowed to return, and the low first pass rate of boards is reflective of that...the students who werent serious and were thus not allowed to proceed in the profession. the ones who did succeed passed the same board exam that all the other pod students in the country passed, and worked hard for it. to insinuate that ocpm graduates students who are not competent is absurd, the ones who couldnt make it dont graduate. ocpm wouldnt have a 100% residency placement (im assuming like the other schools) if this wasnt the case. residency programs would not allow doctors to enter who arent capable.

 

[DPMstudent]

OH and NY, the freestanding schools, have pass rates are consistently at or near the lowest of all pod schools, and they are still accredited to take a ton of students. Yes, the schools have been around awhile... call me crazy, but maybe history does not equal quality? Maybe the caps at some schools have a lot to do with simple greed and tuition dollars? I don't know.

Exactly, I think it's mainly the students fault who don't pass, not the schools. There are a lot of people who are lazy and try to slide by. Boards should be a good eliminator. Get rid of the people who aren't cut out for podiatry. I don't think Barry's pass rate is ever much to brag about along with Cali and Temple but I doubt it has to do with the school inherently. Your school can only do so much for you. The rest is up to the students. So, it all comes back to the fact that schools need to stop accepting crappy applicants. If it means decreasing class size, I'm all for it. The profession and schools need to stop getting a bad representation from poor students. And this is the only real problem of "free standing schools". They accept people who they know will fail for some easy money.
The rest of the blame should be laid on students or boards.
I think that should be a major complaint. If people displaying the "minimal compentency" necessary to pass boards, aren't really all that competent, then there is a problem. Maybe podiatry needs to raise it's standards on boards.

 

[Feli]

i think there be some kind of order to doing things correctly
1) lower the caps of huge schools or drastically increase admissions standards - weed out the people necessary (you'll know who when you're in school)
2) establish an effective curriculum - produce a uniformity of students across the nation
3) get enough residencies for all student who are deserving - (which should be everyone after weeding out the bad students)
4) if there is still demand and the know how establish new schools per necessity, up to par with standards - they will obviously be affiliated with a larger university, since that is all there is today

I think it's mainly the students fault who don't pass, not the schools. There are a lot of people who are lazy and try to slide by. Boards should be a good eliminator. Get rid of the people who aren't cut out for podiatry...