Home oxygen at night = asa 4 ?

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stephenpatrickd

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Hi all,
Does use of oxygen at night (not during the day) mean asa 4?
I ask because I’m trying to figure out if a patient is a candidate for an outpatient endo center.
Any thoughts appreciated.
-spd

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What is the etiology, COPD? Can’t be just OSA, has to be some sort of intrinsic lung disease to need oxygen.

I would say yes to ASA4. If any oxygen use with activity during the day the decision is a slam dunk ASA4.
 
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Whenever I work at an outpatient center, the question I ask is “will this patient meet discharge criteria postop?” I’ve had patients show up who don’t meet discharge criteria preop. Have sent them to the emergency room.

What is their RA SpO2? Can they bring their oxygen with them?
 
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Hi all,
Does use of oxygen at night (not during the day) mean asa 4?
I ask because I’m trying to figure out if a patient is a candidate for an outpatient endo center.
Any thoughts appreciated.
-spd

I call it a 3 if qHS, 4 if "all the time"
 
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ASA 3 you can take out to dinner, ASA 4 you can't lol
very very very simplified but if you add it to the logarithm that runs through your head when deciding, may help differentiate by using it as a final unsupported claim lol
 
ASA4 every day of the week homie.

I did that case before and regretted it. I told the GI my concerns and he was like "what would be different at the main hospital?" More support, invasive monitoring, access to the icu, etc. dip****. My guy had something wrong with pretty much every organ system. I only did it because I knew it was run by one of the partners before being posted to the schedule. I slapped a mask on the guy and preox before we started but as soon as the egd scope is in, the o2 sat starts reading in the 80s and 70s. I thought that it was just a bad reading at a bad time but I swear I aged a year. Next time I will tell the gi to just shove it and put it in the main hospital where it belongs.
 
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ASA4 every day of the week homie.

I did that case before and regretted it. I told the GI my concerns and he was like "what would be different at the main hospital?" More support, invasive monitoring, access to the icu, etc. dip****. My guy had something wrong with pretty much every organ system. I only did it because I knew it was run by one of the partners before being posted to the schedule. I slapped a mask on the guy and preox before we started but as soon as the egd scope is in, the o2 sat starts reading in the 80s and 70s. I thought that it was just a bad reading at a bad time but I swear I aged a year. Next time I will tell the gi to just shove it and put it in the main hospital where it belongs.
I don't think this case is appropriate for an outpatient center either but what invasive monitoring are you really going to do and how often do these patients go to the ICU anyways?

Sometimes you just need to say "too sick"!
 
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He’s an ASA 3.5 lol.
Either way, my gut would tell me don’t do this at an ASC. What badness is most likely to happen? Aspiration, he desats and needs to be emergently intubated. There’s a decent chance he’s not going to be easy to extubate, it would be nice to have an ICU in house to transfer to.
I would call him an ASA 3. If he needs O2 the majority of the day, I would call that a constant threat to life = 4.
 
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I don't think this case is appropriate for an outpatient center either but what invasive monitoring are you really going to do and how often do these patients go to the ICU anyways?

Sometimes you just need to say "too sick"!

I did it the same as any other case and the patient did just fine. But I'd rather have the option.
 
I did it the same as any other case and the patient did just fine. But I'd rather have the option.

But the GI and patient would rather do it at the center. You feel THAT strongly that this person will need post op ICU care to mess with the wallet of the GI and the ASC, and the preferences of the patient? I would have done this case at the center and anticipated the patient needing possibly increased o2 for the day/night at home. No big deal. Lets keep people out of the hospitals who dont need/want to be, especially during covid..
 
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But the GI and patient would rather do it at the center. You feel THAT strongly that this person will need post op ICU care to mess with the wallet of the GI and the ASC, and the preferences of the patient? I would have done this case at the center and anticipated the patient needing possibly increased o2 for the day/night at home. No big deal. Lets keep people out of the hospitals who dont need/want to be, especially during covid..

Guy had copd, smoker, asthma, cad sp cabg, htn, hld, ckd and a few other things I can't recall. It's not that they will need it, it's that they may need it. You can do many cases outpatient but why should I do a bmi 60 or a case with a decent chance of bleeding at the outpatient center when there's a hospital right there?
 
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Just to stir the pot a bit I will say that not everyone using home O2 at night is even an ASA 3. I use it. Of course the difference is that I live at 10,000 feet. Still, details matter. What bugs me more about the typical 80 year old train wreck getting a screening colonoscopy is that it probably shouldn't be done at all, anywhere.
 
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Guy had copd, smoker, asthma, cad sp cabg, htn, hld, ckd and a few other things I can't recall. It's not that they will need it, it's that they may need it. You can do many cases outpatient but why should I do a bmi 60 or a case with a decent chance of bleeding at the outpatient center when there's a hospital right there?

I agree there are limits of what is appropriate in the outpatient setting. Everyone MAY need the hospital transfer. I mean what if you have aspiration during a routine colo on an ASA1?

Its your job to accurately predict WHO is OK for the center and who is too much risk. If you punt everyone to the hospital you can expect a new group to take over the center soon, or you not be assigned to that center anymore...
 
I agree there are limits of what is appropriate in the outpatient setting. Everyone MAY need the hospital transfer. I mean what if you have aspiration during a routine colo on an ASA1?

Its your job to accurately predict WHO is OK for the center and who is too much risk. If you punt everyone to the hospital you can expect a new group to take over the center soon, or you not be assigned to that center anymore...

I'm sorry I'm not following your points here. If a routine ASA 1 patient aspirates they usually do fine; in fact a decent minority of these patients have some type of silent aspiration during these procedures, they just don't manifest symptoms for reasons stated. I can count on two hands the number of people I've pre-opped for other cases who have had lung base findings on a chest x-ray/CT who had a endo done in recent days. Now if this occurs in a patient with intrinsic lung disease, pulmonary hypertension, cardiac comobidities... there isn't really a comparison. We shouldn't have to do cases in places that suck ass for patients that we deem high risk. I didn't train for 8 years to dig myself out of holes, I learned all this @#$% to prevent them also. If the patient was truly informed during their consent about what your concerns are, they would agree with you, trust me.
 
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I'm sorry I'm not following your points here. If a routine ASA 1 patient aspirates they usually do fine; in fact a decent minority of these patients have some type of silent aspiration during these procedures, they just don't manifest symptoms for reasons stated. I can count on two hands the number of people I've pre-opped for other cases who have had lung base findings on a chest x-ray/CT who had a endo done in recent days. Now if this occurs in a patient with intrinsic lung disease, pulmonary hypertension, cardiac comobidities... there isn't really a comparison. We shouldn't have to do cases in places that suck ass for patients that we deem high risk. I didn't train for 8 years to dig myself out of holes, I learned all this @#$% to prevent them also. If the patient was truly informed during their consent about what your concerns are, they would agree with you, trust me.

Again, I agree that not all patients are appropriate for an ASC setting. Obviously you SHOULD try to avoid problems before they happen. There was an extreme example given of a BMI 60 case with a high chance of bleeding. Obviously most all of us are going to punt that to the hospital.

The risks with that BMI 60 patient with the bloody case are not the same as the person presented here with QHS o2 for a simple endoscopy.

I have had ASA1 and ASA2 colonoscopies aspirate and go to the hospital for CXR and IV ABX.
I have had ASA 1 and ASA2 flip into AF and get transferred to the hospital.

What about somebody with a pacemaker for a quick knee scope? I mean they MAY need the hospital for a device malfunction . They MAY need EP standing by to intervene on the device...

What about someone with coronary stents within the past couple of years? They MAY need a cath lab in an emergency.

These decisions are not always easy, but an important part of your job and how you are perceived. Consider them carefully - is my point.

So I guess what you are telling me is: You feel that the chance of aspiration and pulmonary insult during this endoscopy for this patient is so high that it warrants the case be canceled and done at the hospital, the patient be inconvenienced, the surgeons schedule to change, the financial impact of the center and the doctor losing this case..

And I just plain disagree with that risk assessment. Aspiration and pulmonary insult during this quick procedure is a very low risk event in my mind (unless there is some other factor i am missing with the history).
AND in the HIGHLY unlikely event that there are drastically increased O2 requirements, I transfer to the hospital and take excellent care of the patient at the center in the meantime.

ALL patients have some risk. SOME more than others, but its not like you can just say, yeah there is some increased risk here lets punt to the hospital. Its a big inconvenience, make sure you are not OVERSTATING the risk in our own mind. This judgement call is an art that comes with experience.
 
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Knee scope with a pacemaker isn't an issue if they have had follow up. But a patient who has multiple organ system comorbidities and on home O2 needs to be done with possible higher care involved. It takes stands like this to make the GI doc realize they have to screen people adequately, then people like this won't come to the surgery or endo center again because a precedent is set. Or at least they will notify you days ahead to ok them before just ignoring it thinking "oh its doctor so and so and he will do any case." This is when the limits start getting pushed by people who don't understand the consequences. When I think about rescheduling a case the last thing that goes through my mind is a little less money is going into the GI docs pocket. I think about the bad things that could happen to the patient and how those things could lead to 10000x the monetary loss given a bad outcome that could have been prevented or treated in a better way. It doesn't sound like you would really cancel much and are a pretty decent outlier. But hey, to each their own.
 
I would call it ASA 4. Dude's lungs are so bad that earth's atmosphere isn't adequate to sufficiently oxygenate his body properly. I tend to pick slightly higher ASAs though as it's a pretty subjective score.
 
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I would call it ASA 4. Dude's lungs are so bad that earth's atmosphere isn't adequate to sufficiently oxygenate his body properly. I tend to pick slightly higher ASAs though as it's a pretty subjective score.

ASA actually sent out a document recently that has examples for asa.

I don't know why people are so hell bent on underscoring patients, you get paid more for higher asas so why not put the right one?
 
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Again, I agree that not all patients are appropriate for an ASC setting. Obviously you SHOULD try to avoid problems before they happen. There was an extreme example given of a BMI 60 case with a high chance of bleeding. Obviously most all of us are going to punt that to the hospital.

The risks with that BMI 60 patient with the bloody case are not the same as the person presented here with QHS o2 for a simple endoscopy.

I have had ASA1 and ASA2 colonoscopies aspirate and go to the hospital for CXR and IV ABX.
I have had ASA 1 and ASA2 flip into AF and get transferred to the hospital.

What about somebody with a pacemaker for a quick knee scope? I mean they MAY need the hospital for a device malfunction . They MAY need EP standing by to intervene on the device...

What about someone with coronary stents within the past couple of years? They MAY need a cath lab in an emergency.

These decisions are not always easy, but an important part of your job and how you are perceived. Consider them carefully - is my point.

So I guess what you are telling me is: You feel that the chance of aspiration and pulmonary insult during this endoscopy for this patient is so high that it warrants the case be canceled and done at the hospital, the patient be inconvenienced, the surgeons schedule to change, the financial impact of the center and the doctor losing this case..

And I just plain disagree with that risk assessment. Aspiration and pulmonary insult during this quick procedure is a very low risk event in my mind (unless there is some other factor i am missing with the history).
AND in the HIGHLY unlikely event that there are drastically increased O2 requirements, I transfer to the hospital and take excellent care of the patient at the center in the meantime.

ALL patients have some risk. SOME more than others, but its not like you can just say, yeah there is some increased risk here lets punt to the hospital. Its a big inconvenience, make sure you are not OVERSTATING the risk in our own mind. This judgement call is an art that comes with experience.

I thought you were being sarcastic with your first post when you referenced the ASC and GI doc's wallet being affected. Now, I realize that you weren't. I appreciate the subtleties of trying to please multiple masters and it is difficult. Hearing this makes me happy that I don't work at an ASC. I tend to be more aggressive in trying to get cases done for patients, surgeons and for patient preference. But if I had to worry about the surgeon, GI doc or hospital's wallet not getting stuffed, then I would be miserable on a daily basis.

It is almost the exact opposite argument from people that argue they are "protecting their license". Forget your license and forget someone's wallet... just do what is best for the patient. If you trend conservative or aggressive, fine. Just don't practice medicine based on a license or wallet.
 
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