Healthcare Reform and ENT

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Vix

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Hey guys,

I'm a medical student interested in ENT and thought it would be cool if we started a thread on healthcare reform and ENT (sorry if there already is a thread - I couldn't find one). It would be cool to hear people's perspective on how ENT (daily practice, reimbursement, patient-doctor relationship, etc.) will be effected by the changes being proposed to healthcare. There seems to be a looming sense of doctors taking a hit, but it has been difficult to get a feel for how this is all going to transpire (especially for ENTs).

Thanks!

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...healthcare reform and ENT ...how ENT (daily practice, reimbursement, patient-doctor relationship, etc.) will be effected by the changes being proposed to healthcare...
As it stands, I am not sure what specific changes will occur. The ENT "college" may have a lobby goup and be communicating with member surgeons as the American Cardiology and American Board of Surgery does with its members. Thus, I suspect practicing Otos may have some regular "legislative updates" to share.

Having said that, I suspect Oto, like anticipated by other specialty areas will see a decrease in reimbursement. I am not sure about the "rationing" issue.... It is conceivable, rhinoplasty covered as for ~ breathing issues may not be covered, "commando" head neck cancer cases may be limited in older patients, etc.... The "taking out the tonsils for sore throats" maybe limited (that is sarcasm folks). All in all, it is quite difficult to predict what total impact will be on each area of practice.

It does sound like there will be some sort of surcharge/tax on devices.... this may impact ligasure usage during cases, cost of tympanostomy tubes, cost of special endotrachial tubes, cost of injectable/implantable products for vocal chords, etc....

JAD
 
An ENT attending I spoke to at my med school says there will probably be decrease in reimbursement especially for OR procedures, so ENT will begin to shift more to clinic with less and less OR time.
 
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An ENT attending I spoke to at my med school says there will probably be decrease in reimbursement especially for OR procedures, so ENT will begin to shift more to clinic with less and less OR time.

I'm not sure how this would work... Maybe some of the attendings can shed some light though.

As it is, ENT's generally only operate a couple days a week. So if they were to reduce their OR time that wouldn't leave much time, yet there would presumably be just as many patients requiring surgery. Since there are no other surgical specialties that overlap with the majority of ENT procedures, where would these patients go?
 
I'm not sure how this would work... Maybe some of the attendings can shed some light though.

As it is, ENT's generally only operate a couple days a week. So if they were to reduce their OR time that wouldn't leave much time, yet there would presumably be just as many patients requiring surgery. Since there are no other surgical specialties that overlap with the majority of ENT procedures, where would these patients go?

Cash only practices.
 
This is my take on healthcare reform for ENT.

1. Medicare is not sustainable in its present form. The government simply cannot make Medicare sustainable unless it 1) raises taxes and/or 2) decreases physician reimbursements. It is likely that both will occur.
2. When Medicare reimbursements go down, so do managed care reimbursements
3. At some point, managed care and government health care will covert all reimbursements to hospitals/surgical centers/physicians into one global fee and it will be up to those entities to divide up the reimbursements. Because of this, hospitals will trim. Physicians will be more selective. Patients will suffer. Universities will become overburdened.
4. Physicians who perform surgery will be forced to take their procedures to the office whenever possible: tympanostomy tubes, TNE, vocal cord injections, Sinuplasty, Somnoplasty, blephs, etc. Those procedures done in the operating room will be done for those with the best insurance or those who are paying cash.
5. Patients who don't have great insurance or are unwilling to pay cash will have to wait.
6. If reimbursement for surgeons is redirected to primary care, incentive to perform at our current rate will no longer be present for surgeons. Therefore, even if you have good insurance, you will have to wait.
7. There will never be malpractice reform
8. Malpractice premiums will go up
9. The cost of technology keeps going up. Waste in hospital systems keeps going up. Reimbursements will go down. This is not sustainable.
10. Physicians will be forced to practice "evidence based medicine." On the surface, everyone thinks this is a great thing -- force those physicians to practice their science! (Can I have a Z-PAK for my cold, doc?)
11. Physicians will be paid for performance based on loosely constructed evidence based medicine in many cases established by some epidemiologist who doesn't know an otoscope from a colonoscope. All of a sudden, if you're not a healthy person, "you've got really bad hypertension; I think you need to go to the University of XYZ to get treated." For university physicians, most of their patients won't improve. (Big fat ass with DM, HTN, OSA, MI who won't cut out coffee to help his reflux.)
12. A public option will soon be demanded and enforced. It won't pay as well or better than Medicare and will probably be as bad as Medicaid.
13. More paperwork for physicians.
14. Push toward electronic medical records (but don't ask the government to help you upgrade your infrastructure).
15. Any medical problem or abnormal lab you've ever had will be a "pre-existing condition"
16. Insurance company CEOs will still be fat cats
17. Jackasses in the White House will claim that the system needs reform.

What the PHUK!
 
...or it won't pass.

I mean if we would just stop pulling out tonsils because it pays better!
 
...or it won't pass.

I mean if we would just stop pulling out tonsils because it pays better!

Yah I almost fell off my seat when I heard that. It's kind of sad that the person driving healthcare reform doesn't seem to have much respect for physicians.

Interesting thoughts guys. Keep them coming!
 
An ENT attending I spoke to at my med school says there will probably be decrease in reimbursement especially for OR procedures, so ENT will begin to shift more to clinic with less and less OR time.
I don't know the details, but I have heard there is anticipated 20+% decrease in reimbursement at medicare/medicaid level. I have also heard the "consult" codes will be eliminated at the in-patient and out-patient visits. Physicians will reportedly be able to use "new patient" admission codes for in-patient consults..... however, it will depend on the primary admitting physician to use some sort of inpatient admit code modifier... the entire thing gets complicated if not ugly....
 
...1. Medicare is not sustainable in its present form. The government simply cannot make Medicare sustainable unless it 1) raises taxes and/or 2) decreases physician reimbursements. It is likely that both will occur....
13. More paperwork for physicians.
14. Push toward electronic medical records (but don't ask the government to help you upgrade your infrastructure)....
I was viewing a panel of medical students in a discussion of the proposed insurance/healthcare reform....
They were asked about needs for the future. Their replies went something like this....

~"we as physicians (future physicians) must care for the sick..... our efforts need to be focused on healing and caring for patients and NOT beaurocracy and paperwork.... we think the best way to focus on caring and healing the sick and eliminating beaurocracy and paperwork would be..... expand medicare/medicaid and create a government health plan....."

needless to say, I was kind of surprised at the ignorance.... especially given that the government plans apparently deny more claims then the private plans and I find myself more closely crossing the "t" and dotting the "i" with medicare/medicaid patients to assure I am not breaking any laws....

JAD
 
Progress is always slow and/or nonexistent in Washington. Politics is a football game. They don't care about what's best for the nation; they just want to win, take money from endorsement deals (lobbyists), and give the illusion that they're "doing it for the fans." You can see it in the way they discuss political matters. Its disgusting.
 
...in Washington. ...They don't care about what's best for the nation...
as to how it may impact Oto or any other specialty... particularly surgical specialties, consider this:

NPs & PAs & certified surgical nurse first assist often do not exist in socialized countries or do so in far less a manner then in the USA. If massive cuts occur through a socialized system.... i.e. medicare/medicaid type systems, you may see these extenders decrease or disappear all together. they are just that, extenders. they enable larger patient case loads and sometimes serve as a bridge to cross the gap of care. a physician extender can perform certain procedures and/or respond to certain patient needs while the physician is stuck in the OR. i think potential loss of this resource could have a profound impact on how practices are run. Massive cuts in reimbursement (either socialized system or other type cuts) will necessarily require contraction of the over-all healthcare provider system. we may have to increase our use of residents as the ancillary care staff... something to look forward to:smuggrin:.
 
Great post, neutropeniaboy. So it passed in the House of Reps last night, and after watching 5 hours of infuriatingly sensible arguments by the GOP met with sentimental letters and child-props by the socialists, in the absence of any real logical pro-bill arguments but only talk of "moral responsibility," I picked my devastated arse up off the floor following the 120-115 tragedy and began to laugh. To see a bill passed that the majority of the people are opposed to, in addition to the entire republican party and 20-25% of the democratic party, simply because a few people up top are full of idealism and thinking like children...has finally struck me funny. I'm now calloused and can't wait to sit back and watch the chaos that erupts on account of this ridiculous Scythe and Hammer decision. Hopefully the senate will be more logical, but if not...all the funnier!

Luckily ENT strikes me as a field with both hard-working and laid-back avenues. We'll see how much motivation-to-succeed they strip away from you (and the American public in general, as capitalism goes down the drain), and y'all can choose your courses accordingly.
 
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Hasn't ENT already been hit really hard by reimbursement cuts? Their average salaries seem considerably lower than rads, ortho, gas, cardio and derm.

It seems another 20-30% cut will put it on the same level as hospitalists and EM.
 
...It seems another 20-30% cut will put it on the same level as hospitalists and EM.
if you substitute family practice and primary care for hospitalist and EM, then you understand the plan. it is exactly the leveling/equalization of pay that is the objective. that objective has been stated and declared for quite some time. thus, the cuts in reimbursed subspecialty codes while the increased reimbursement for primary care office visit codes. the increased reimbursement for primary care is to be funded by decreased reimbursement for the subspecialties. it is a zero sum game or a negative sum game.....

JAD
 
People fail to see the difference between "reimbursement" and "cost." ~30% of healthcare costs are consumed by punk-ass administrators. After this bill, they'll still get their pay while the pay of physicians suffers.

Can anyone explain how Canada maintains such a significant difference between reimbursement while covering everyone at a lower cost? I think it is largely due to the absence of a large beauracracy...
 
...Can anyone explain how Canada maintains such a significant difference between reimbursement while covering everyone at a lower cost? I think it is largely due to the absence of a large beauracracy...
While your question is interesting, it presumes conclusions to which facts of reality are lacking..... To my understanding, every country with a socialized system has a massive beaurocracy.

I know very little about canadian healthcare other then the story about the lady with brain cancer that could not get a scan in canada, could not get treatment based on a scan obtained in the USA, etc.... and also, it seems you wait years to be assigned a primary care physician. So, I am unclear on the conclusion as to , "covering everyone at a lower cost". Maybe the lower cost of coverage is a result of marked limits in what is covered... not the result of efficiency in administration/beaurocracy.

JAD
 
~"we as physicians (future physicians) must care for the sick..... our efforts need to be focused on healing and caring for patients and NOT beaurocracy and paperwork.... we think the best way to focus on caring and healing the sick and eliminating beaurocracy and paperwork would be..... expand medicare/medicaid and create a government health plan....."

needless to say, I was kind of surprised at the ignorance....

That's because they are medical students. All they do is focus on patients and disease -- and they should. However, once you finish residency, the real world of medicine hits you pretty hard. Medicine, obviously, is more than healing and curing. For better or for worse, it's a business as well.
 
That's because they are medical students. All they do is focus on patients and disease -- and they should. However, once you finish residency, the real world of medicine hits you pretty hard. Medicine, obviously, is more than healing and curing. For better or for worse, it's a business as well.
I will grant you that the business side of medicine is poorly presented during medical school. Furthermore, I accept that to a great degree learning and absorbing the sciences should be the focus of medical school.

However, medical students, as any other group of educated adults, should go beyond just knee jerk emotional and/or ignorant responses to their "environment". In theory, medical students and subsequently physicians, are scientists. We are trained in the scientific methods. We are taught to look beyond the surface and identify data, etc.... IMHO, any responsible medical professional (to include allied health and medical students), as individuals looked-up to, have an inherent obligation to consider their actions and the influence/impact said actions may have on their patients and/or society.

A medical student swallowing the Kool-aid and declaring a position on public policy on healthcare and healthcare delivery is not excused by a declaration of innocent/blind idealism. He/she has an obligation, when asked about such a thing, to actually learn about the thing prior to giving a public opinion/position that the mass of uneducated may consider to be an informed/professional position. Idealism is no excuse for public ignorance. Individuals taking an oath to "do no harm", must carefully consider if their actions in word or deed will have profound (and foreseeable) adverse impact on current and/or future patients.

JAD
 
While your question is interesting, it presumes conclusions to which facts of reality are lacking..... To my understanding, every country with a socialized system has a massive beaurocracy.

I know very little about canadian healthcare other then the story about the lady with brain cancer that could not get a scan in canada, could not get treatment based on a scan obtained in the USA, etc.... and also, it seems you wait years to be assigned a primary care physician. So, I am unclear on the conclusion as to , "covering everyone at a lower cost". Maybe the lower cost of coverage is a result of marked limits in what is covered... not the result of efficiency in administration/beaurocracy.

JAD


Yes but doctors in the US have to spend thousands of dollars a year paying for an administator whose only job is to chase insurance claims. The number of administators has far surpassed the number of physicians. Not to mention the millionaire insurance execs. I don't see why an insurance exec should have a multimillion dollar salary while someone who does heart transplants makes 500k/yr (I don't know the true figure but I'm just guessing). Our society has its priorities backwards.

As far as primary care, I think we should just have more nurse practitioners and non-physicians doing well child visits, check ups, etc. Did any of you have primary care continuity clinic in medical school? I am able to handle most complaints as a MSIII. I don't think all of those people need to consume a physician's time with their complaint (or lack thereof).
 
Yes but doctors in the US have to spend thousands of dollars a year paying for an administator whose only job is to chase insurance claims. ...Not to mention the millionaire insurance execs. I don't see why an insurance exec should have a multimillion dollar salary while someone who does heart transplants makes 500k/yr...
Well, I think everyone can have a view on that. We can argue about corporate CEOs' salaries or the pro athlete (i.e. NFL, etc) having a million dollar salary. There is some economic/"market" components at play. I am not going to argue for or against excecs income. I just some the questions....

what is the actual sum total income of these millionaire execs?
would socializing healthcare recoup such salaries/revenues? ( as opposed to spreading it onto increased number of lesser paid administrators)
would that recoupment have an adverse impact on quality of business administrators and/or recruitment of management? (i.e. impact and/or incentive for the "best and the brightest")
would that recoupment (i.e. revenue saved on limited salaries)have a broad sweeping improvement to healthcare delivery?
How many individuals benefit in their healthcare needs from excellent leadership/business savy execs? (i.e. around 85% of population asked are reasonably satisfied with their health insurance)

I will say historically there is a long list of hospital failures/business failures at the hands of well meaning physician executives. We can look with anger/envy/etc... at someone making a million dollars. I think it is very easy to stir "class warfare" sentiments. I am not sure we can determine someone is overpaid simply on the basis a number and/or compare to the specialty. For comparison, how many patients does a heart surgeon care for in a year 200? 400? Remember, there are plenty of school teachers that make the argument about janitors being paid more then a school teacher. Should congressional "leaders" be paid 250k or 500K? What should they do for the salary and "cadillac" benefits.... just read the legislation or should they actually write the legislation? These are all just thoughts for you to consider.
...As far as primary care, I think we should just have more nurse practitioners and non-physicians doing well child visits, check ups, etc. Did any of you have primary care continuity clinic in medical school? I am able to handle most complaints as a MSIII. I don't think all of those people need to consume a physician's time with their complaint (or lack thereof).
I actually had such a clinic experience. Keep in mind the "over-use" of healthcare in our country is a result of expanded insurance coverage. Insurance provides patients with a greatly skewed perception of healthcare value. There is in many circumstances an almost, "it's free" attitude. Think of how many will complain about their co-pay. There were numerous medical schools/centers that started to self insure their employees. Some went for a zero co-pay plan initially. Such systems were suddenly over-run by overuse. Folks would show up to PCP for runny nose and sore muscles after running. When these institutions imposed a $20+ co-pay, there was a dramatic decrease in utilization!

Folks want cheap or free medications but are unwilling to take significant responsibility for their own decisions or health. Think about how many folks will pay $50-200 for a haircut or nails. How unfair is it to require more contribution from the sedintary, over eating, smoker then the individual that watches their weight, exercises daily?

As for NPs/PAs, do you think additional physician extenders added to system will in anyway impact over-utilization? Do you believe cut revenues (i.e. reimbursment) will enable expansion of such mid-levels? I actually think you will see lay-offs and contraction in the number of providers with associated increased delay in care and/or wait times. Socialized countries have seen this. Historical examples in other nations have shown these patterns.

JAD
 
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Interesting points, JackADeli. I think we agree on several issues. I think we agree that the current legislation is going to expand coverage without immediate cost control.

Re: Moral hazard and overutilization
We're all familiar with moral hazard with the complete removal of market forces. How can we balance minimal moral hazard with rationing. Rationing is based on whether or not you have a job. The unemployment rate recently exceeded 10%. Certainly it is tragic to allow a man to die of a heart attack because he couldn't afford to see a doctor (or PA!) who could prescribe him a statin. But I don't think the clinic should welcome him with open arms when he has a nosebleed. The way things are arranged now, a poor person will not see a doctor if they need a statin OR if they have a nosebleed. A person with great insurance can see a physician every time they have a nosebleed if they wish. Also, most of the healthcare debt is in the middle class. Healthcare debt is the number one cause of personal bankruptcy.

Re: PAs and NPs
I think it would be fantastic if someone with a mundane complaint saw a NP or PA whose time is worth roughly half that of a physician. The physician should be looking at the really sick patients and supervising the NPs/PAs. Thats how we expand primary care.

Re: cost of healthcare in the US
We're paying much more per capita as the runner up. I don't think we getting twice the care and doctors certainly aren't paid twice as much. That money is going somewhere. Administrative costs and overhead are killing us (http://www.rwjf.org/reports/grr/036617.htm). All you have to do is google "united states healthcare administrative cost." You'll find many different studies examining the difference between the US and other industrialized nations. The data is out there. The millionaire execs are getting that money and so are the other administrators.

Re: patient satisfaction in the US
The average American has no idea what reforms are on the table. I've read a few interesting articles on this topic lately. I'll look for them and post the links.
 
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I am going to respond to a few points and then probably leave this discussion to others. Otherwise, I suspect it will become a drawn out healthcare reform debate.
...How can we balance minimal moral hazard with rationing. ...unemployment rate recently exceeded 10%. Certainly it is tragic to allow a man to die of a heart attack because he couldn't afford to see a doctor (or PA!) who could prescribe him a statin. But I don't think the clinic should welcome him with open arms when he has a nosebleed. The way things are arranged now, a poor person will not see a doctor if they need a statin OR if they have a nosebleed. A person with great insurance can see a physician every time they have a nosebleed if they wish...
Interesting points albeit kind of out of touch. Statin prevention of MI is a longitudinal matter. One does not get an MI because they missed a dose of statin. Add to that that in the USA the vast majority of healthcare expenditures is the result of lifestyle choices and behavior. As I mentioned, "we" love a free lunch. This translates to taking a pill to be skinny or to lower cholesterol or manage diabetes. The majority of folks on statins and/or receiving heart care have lifelong poor choices that often do not correct even when a physician tells them loose weight, exercise, and stop smoking. Regardless, both the individual with a heart attack and nose bleed will be seen by a physician regardless of ability to pay. The fact is California and other states have for a very long time provided "primary care" via ERs without regard to ability to pay. So, 10% or 30% (as in some states) unemployment is not going to suddenly cause statin deficient MIs.
...Re: PAs and NPs
I think it would be fantastic if someone with a mundane complaint saw a NP or PA whose time is worth roughly half that of a physician. The physician should be looking at the really sick patients and supervising the NPs/PAs. Thats how we expand primary care...
Oh, I know what physician extenders can do. However, massive cuts in pay will result in contraction of the healthcare system. Speak with physician colleagues abroad. They don't have the large amount of staff. If they need an additional skilled assistant, they schedule the case for when a physician colleague is available (i.e. delay in care). Even if the current legislation provides for some sort of reimbursement increase for extenders, I doubt you will have lines of physicians looking to "supervise" at decreased income.
....Re: cost of healthcare in the US
We're paying much more per capita as the runner up. I don't think we getting twice the care and doctors certainly aren't paid twice as much. That money is going somewhere. Administrative costs and overhead are killing us...
We definately pay more.... but the data/numbers are skewed. How many Davinci cases do you think are being done abroad? What about the survival rates for cancer abroad? How about infant mortality... they win (on infants) right? Well, actually we intervene on far more premature births, etc.... thus increasing our infant mortality rate. We could definately game the numbers system... stop the care we provide that they do NOT; just to see about increasing some skewed score. Do you think we should stop the Pap smear tests on sexually active teens and wait until age 22? That would decrease per capita expenditures. We could eliminate much of the chemo we provide. We could allow coronary patients a 2-6 month wait period for their cath... that could allow some to die saving the cost of cath stent and/or CABG.

As for administration, I think you miss the point. Just as they have tried to convince everyone that taxes on the "rich" can pay for it all, some feel job cuts/salary caps on execs will some how pay for it. The math is NOT there. Look at the UK. Their socialized system is the largest employer in their country. They didn't decrease beaurocracy.... they expanded it.
...Re: patient satisfaction in the US
The average American has no idea what reforms are on the table. I've read a few interesting articles on this topic lately. I'll look for them and post the links.
You don't have to look for them, I've probably read them. Bottom line is if we tell folks they will pay less then what they pay now they will suddenly become unsatisfied with what they have. "We" all want "free" healthcare. Somehow we have the idea that a $10, 20, 50 co-pay is just unfair. We think everyone should be able to get the single incision gallbladder removal as opposed to the 4-5 port technique... but should not pay the added cost. Everyone should get the minimally invassive heart valve ... without paying for the added costs. The list continues. Patients aren't paying by the hour for their OR care, nor are they willing to pay. It is what it is.

No matter what they put in the bill, there is no free lunch. Just as most folks are generally satisfied with what they have currently;
I suspect if you show them a large expansive buffet of technologies and services that they may have potential access to and then show them an empty buffet with limited technology and options and tell them that 100% of people can have buffet number two if we "reform" insurance.... most will take their chances with luxury buffet number 1. Tell them if we get a 100% coverage European system everyone can get some free pills.... then tell them the trade off is a lower survival for breast cancer and other cancers. I suspect most will rethink any support for the socialized..... Heck, those in the socialized systems are rethinking their system!!! My experience is that in the USA most folks like the idea and hope of having a possibility of getting something more. I suspect most folks would not like the idea of a socialized route to universally getting something less.

JAD
 
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Look at the UK. Their socialized system is the largest employer in their country. They didn't decrease beaurocracy.... they expanded it.

Just to add to this argument, the UK's National Health Service is the third largest employer in the WORLD (behind the Chinese Army and the Indian State Railways).

I couldn't even imagine the size of such a system in the US.
 
Just so folks can easily follow the recent course of the discussion:
...~30% of healthcare costs are consumed by punk-ass administrators...

Can anyone explain how Canada maintains such a significant difference between reimbursement while covering everyone at a lower cost? I think it is largely due to the absence of a large beauracracy...
While your question is interesting, it presumes conclusions to which facts of reality are lacking..... To my understanding, every country with a socialized system has a massive beaurocracy...
...I am not going to argue for or against excecs income. I just [pose] some the questions....

what is the actual sum total income of these millionaire execs?
would socializing healthcare recoup such salaries/revenues? ( as opposed to spreading it onto increased number of lesser paid administrators)
would that recoupment have an adverse impact on quality of business administrators and/or recruitment of management? (i.e. impact and/or incentive for the "best and the brightest")
would that recoupment (i.e. revenue saved on limited salaries)have a broad sweeping improvement to healthcare delivery?
How many individuals benefit in their healthcare needs from excellent leadership/business savy execs? (i.e. around 85% of population asked are reasonably satisfied with their health insurance)...
Now as to the latest, interesting point of information per Vix:
...the UK's National Health Service is the third largest employer in the WORLD (behind the Chinese Army and the Indian State Railways).

I couldn't even imagine the size of such a system in the US.
I am just going to leave this with some information I posted in another forum. Please feel free to check out that forum for previously discussed/argued points.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=670356
What I am posting/reposting is for the numbers one might consider when trying to consider costs and extrapolation to the USA...
Populations
USA ~300 million
UK ~61 million
Scandinavian ~ 25 million
(Denmark ~5.5 million, Sweden ~9 million, Norway ~4.5 million, Finland ~5.25 million, Iceland ~300 thousand)

Tobacco smoking
USA ~22.3%
other nations, see link: http://www.who.int/tobacco/en/atlas5.pdf

Obesity (using WHO link, ~2005, 30 & older, Female/Male prevalence)
https://apps.who.int/infobase/compare.aspx?dm=5&countries=246%2c826%2c840%2c752%2c578%2c352&year=2005&sf1=cd.0701&sex=all&agegroup=30-100

USA ~ 42%/48% ( http://healthyamericans.org/reports/obesity2009 )
UK ~ 30%
Scandinavian ~12%/18% Denmark, ~16%/18% Sweden, ~12%/16% Norway, ~25%/25% Finland, ~30%/24% Iceland

Adult HIV/AIDS rate
USA ~0.6%
UK ~0.2%
Scandinavian ~ 0.2% Denmark, 0.1% Sweden, 0.1% Norway, <0.1% Finland, 0.2% Iceland
Good luck and best wishes,
JAD
 
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JackADeli et al,

I'm not trying to debate you or be a "troll." I just always learn something from discussions with intelligent people. I'm just a medical student trying to make sense of all this.

And I wasn't suggesting that you personally didn't understand the reforms on the table. I have read a few publications discussing the contradictory outcomes of opinion polls. The results suggested that people weren't at all familiar with the structure of our payment system or the reforms that are being suggested by different groups.

The UK has socialized medicine; UK physicians are employees of the NHS and most hospitals are owned by the NHS. Thats why they are such a large employer. Canada simply has a single payer (the government).

One question for JackADeli: how would employing a PA cause a PCP to lose money? I thought they made money when they employed PAs and NPs...shows what I know.
 
...One question ...how would employing a PA cause a PCP to lose money? ...
I will do my best to answer your question. The numbers I use are not bible. My answer is a generalized/generic thought process.

The details can vary. But, if one is in private practice, overhead is the responsibility of the practice which generally means responsibility of the physicians' generated revenues. A private practice, about 50% or more of collections (i.e. reimbursed billing) goes to cover overhead... this includes everything from rent, utilities, staff, staff benefits, dictation, supplies, etc... Also, Extenders (PAs & NPs) come with their own malpractice insurance requirements. In essence, the only way employees get a raise is via physician working more (i.e. increased collections) or physician taking a pay cut.

Now, for physician extenders/mid-levels, they can bill for some services. The rules on this are significant. Depending on the structure, what a PA for example can bill is limited. So, what does a PA get paid? I don't know but there seems to be a range from $60-130K plus benefits. Thus, you need to ask what is the income generated for this arrangement to be profitable? In order for a physician extender to be financially worthwhile, he/she will need to bill (and collect) in excess of their salary, benefits, malpractice coverage, and other overhead. Your extender would likely have to bring in over $100k in revenues (depending on their salary/benefits package). However, in a practice in which say, a physician earns after expenses, over $300k, the physician may be willing to "subsidize" (i.e. take a pay cut) to fund a mid-level for the luxury of having said individual. So, if the physicians take massive cuts accross the board and earn under $150-200K (like in Europe), how many do you think will willing take an additional paycut of $60-80k to employ/subsidize a PA?

JAD

PS: keep in mind that according to some a salary of over $200k makes you rich and thus subjected to possibly 60-70% tax rate in proposed plans......
 
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...I'm not trying to debate you or be a "troll." I just always learn something from discussions with intelligent people. I'm just a medical student trying to make sense of all this...
it's all chill, no foul:cool:
 
from an attending standpoint let me throw in my own $0.02. The 20% cut in Medicare reimbursement is due to the calculation Medicare uses known as the sustained growth rate. Every year for the last 5 years there has been a potential cut in Medicare reimbursement to physicians. However, every year for the last 5 years Congress has voted to delay that cut. The problem is every time that it is delayed the next time it is due the cut is even bigger. Thus 18 months ago when it was delayed the cut was only 15% and now we have a potential 22% cut.this affects all physicians not just otolaryngologists.

The most immediate affect of all of these changes is that CMS recently approved elimination of consultation codes. Again, this affects all physicians who see consults and not just ENT physicians. In my particular practice, this may have the effect of reducing my reimbursement by about 10%. Another ENT who uses the consultation code the majority of time will have a huge impact on their reimbursement. Likewise in any other specialty anybody who uses the consultation codes heavily to bill will be similarly hurt. One last bonus from CMS is that they are going to reduce the reimbursement to specialists by 5% and increase reimbursement to primary care physicians by 5%.

All of these effects take place on January 1.

We can argue all we want about the future of the specialty, but at this time there is no specific ENT-related legislation that targets us individually.
 
Thanks for the response resxn. Do you think these cuts will go on indefinitely until all specialists are making primary care money, or is there an end in sight?
 
Thanks for the response resxn. Do you think these cuts will go on indefinitely until all specialists are making primary care money, or is there an end in sight?

Obama would love to see that, but it'll never happen to the degree he's seeking. The training here is simply too rigorous and low-paying. Take away the financial incentive and nobody will ever do a fellowship, leaving a shortage of specialists for a population which demands the very best and most advanced care.

The fuhrer does have a point, though. Why should somebody with 3-5 years of extra, rigorous training be able to charge more money for their services?! Ridiculous!!
 
The fuhrer does have a point, though. Why should somebody with 3-5 years of extra, rigorous training be able to charge more money for their services?! Ridiculous!!

not only the extra training, but also the increased risk and concomitant higher malpractice inherent in procedural specialties.

But I agree that ultimately a specialist and a primary care doctor will not earn the same amount of money if there is any semblance of a free market system in US medicine. However, given the current political clime, I am not so confident that a free market system or any derivation thereof will be present indefinitely.
 
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Before you go writing that "almost all the socialist programs have a huge bureaucracy" or some nonsense like that, read the data in the following:

From the Washington Post:

5 Myths About Health Care Around the World

By T.R. Reid
Sunday, August 23, 2009

As Americans search for the cure to what ails our health-care system, we've overlooked an invaluable source of ideas and solutions: the rest of the world. All the other industrialized democracies have faced problems like ours, yet they've found ways to cover everybody -- and still spend far less than we do.

I've traveled the world from Oslo to Osaka to see how other developed democracies provide health care. Instead of dismissing these models as "socialist," we could adapt their solutions to fix our problems. To do that, we first have to dispel a few myths about health care abroad:

1. It's all socialized medicine out there.

Not so. Some countries, such as Britain, New Zealand and Cuba, do provide health care in government hospitals, with the government paying the bills. Others -- for instance, Canada and Taiwan -- rely on private-sector providers, paid for by government-run insurance. But many wealthy countries -- including Germany, the Netherlands, Japan and Switzerland -- provide universal coverage using private doctors, private hospitals and private insurance plans.

In some ways, health care is less "socialized" overseas than in the United States. Almost all Americans sign up for government insurance (Medicare) at age 65. In Germany, Switzerland and the Netherlands, seniors stick with private insurance plans for life. Meanwhile, the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs is one of the planet's purest examples of government-run health care.

2. Overseas, care is rationed through limited choices or long lines.

Generally, no. Germans can sign up for any of the nation's 200 private health insurance plans -- a broader choice than any American has. If a German doesn't like her insurance company, she can switch to another, with no increase in premium. The Swiss, too, can choose any insurance plan in the country.

In France and Japan, you don't get a choice of insurance provider; you have to use the one designated for your company or your industry. But patients can go to any doctor, any hospital, any traditional healer. There are no U.S.-style limits such as "in-network" lists of doctors or "pre-authorization" for surgery. You pick any doctor, you get treatment -- and insurance has to pay.

Canadians have their choice of providers. In Austria and Germany, if a doctor diagnoses a person as "stressed," medical insurance pays for weekends at a health spa.

As for those notorious waiting lists, some countries are indeed plagued by them. Canada makes patients wait weeks or months for nonemergency care, as a way to keep costs down. But studies by the Commonwealth Fund and others report that many nations -- Germany, Britain, Austria -- outperform the United States on measures such as waiting times for appointments and for elective surgeries.

In Japan, waiting times are so short that most patients don't bother to make an appointment. One Thursday morning in Tokyo, I called the prestigious orthopedic clinic at Keio University Hospital to schedule a consultation about my aching shoulder. "Why don't you just drop by?" the receptionist said. That same afternoon, I was in the surgeon's office. Dr. Nakamichi recommended an operation. "When could we do it?" I asked. The doctor checked his computer and said, "Tomorrow would be pretty difficult. Perhaps some day next week?"

3. Foreign health-care systems are inefficient, bloated bureaucracies.

Much less so than here. It may seem to Americans that U.S.-style free enterprise -- private-sector, for-profit health insurance -- is naturally the most cost-effective way to pay for health care. But in fact, all the other payment systems are more efficient than ours.

U.S. health insurance companies have the highest administrative costs in the world; they spend roughly 20 cents of every dollar for nonmedical costs, such as paperwork, reviewing claims and marketing. France's health insurance industry, in contrast, covers everybody and spends about 4 percent on administration. Canada's universal insurance system, run by government bureaucrats, spends 6 percent on administration. In Taiwan, a leaner version of the Canadian model has administrative costs of 1.5 percent; one year, this figure ballooned to 2 percent, and the opposition parties savaged the government for wasting money.

The world champion at controlling medical costs is Japan, even though its aging population is a profligate consumer of medical care. On average, the Japanese go to the doctor 15 times a year, three times the U.S. rate. They have twice as many MRI scans and X-rays. Quality is high; life expectancy and recovery rates for major diseases are better than in the United States. And yet Japan spends about $3,400 per person annually on health care; the United States spends more than $7,000.

4. Cost controls stifle innovation.

False. The United States is home to groundbreaking medical research, but so are other countries with much lower cost structures. Any American who's had a hip or knee replacement is standing on French innovation. Deep-brain stimulation to treat depression is a Canadian breakthrough. Many of the wonder drugs promoted endlessly on American television, including Viagra, come from British, Swiss or Japanese labs.

Overseas, strict cost controls actually drive innovation. In the United States, an MRI scan of the neck region costs about $1,500. In Japan, the identical scan costs $98. Under the pressure of cost controls, Japanese researchers found ways to perform the same diagnostic technique for one-fifteenth the American price. (And Japanese labs still make a profit.)

5. Health insurance has to be cruel.

Not really. American health insurance companies routinely reject applicants with a "preexisting condition" -- precisely the people most likely to need the insurers' service. They employ armies of adjusters to deny claims. If a customer is hit by a truck and faces big medical bills, the insurer's "rescission department" digs through the records looking for grounds to cancel the policy, often while the victim is still in the hospital. The companies say they have to do this stuff to survive in a tough business.

Foreign health insurance companies, in contrast, must accept all applicants, and they can't cancel as long as you pay your premiums. The plans are required to pay any claim submitted by a doctor or hospital (or health spa), usually within tight time limits. The big Swiss insurer Groupe Mutuel promises to pay all claims within five days. "Our customers love it," the group's chief executive told me. The corollary is that everyone is mandated to buy insurance, to give the plans an adequate pool of rate-payers.

The key difference is that foreign health insurance plans exist only to pay people's medical bills, not to make a profit. The United States is the only developed country that lets insurance companies profit from basic health coverage.

In many ways, foreign health-care models are not really "foreign" to America, because our crazy-quilt health-care system uses elements of all of them. For Native Americans or veterans, we're Britain: The government provides health care, funding it through general taxes, and patients get no bills. For people who get insurance through their jobs, we're Germany: Premiums are split between workers and employers, and private insurance plans pay private doctors and hospitals. For people over 65, we're Canada: Everyone pays premiums for an insurance plan run by the government, and the public plan pays private doctors and hospitals according to a set fee schedule. And for the tens of millions without insurance coverage, we're Burundi or Burma: In the world's poor nations, sick people pay out of pocket for medical care; those who can't pay stay sick or die.

This fragmentation is another reason that we spend more than anybody else and still leave millions without coverage. All the other developed countries have settled on one model for health-care delivery and finance; we've blended them all into a costly, confusing bureaucratic mess.

Which, in turn, punctures the most persistent myth of all: that America has "the finest health care" in the world. We don't. In terms of results, almost all advanced countries have better national health statistics than the United States does. In terms of finance, we force 700,000 Americans into bankruptcy each year because of medical bills. In France, the number of medical bankruptcies is zero. Britain: zero. Japan: zero. Germany: zero.

Given our remarkable medical assets -- the best-educated doctors and nurses, the most advanced hospitals, world-class research -- the United States could be, and should be, the best in the world. To get there, though, we have to be willing to learn some lessons about health-care administration from the other industrialized democracies.
 
Before you go writing that "almost all the socialist programs have a huge bureaucracy" or some nonsense like that, read the data in the following:

From the Washington Post:....
very interesting perspective from the Post, bastion of capitalism.

However, I suggest further digging. The comment on wait limits in Canada..... for non-emergent care references times that occur after you get a PCP. The wait for a PCP can be measured in years. Maybe everyone now gets head MRIs quicker then the lady that had to come USA for her cancer. Maybe everyone can get to see a specialist surgeon when they arrive to Canada with MRI and diagnosis in hand unlike the lady that had to go back to USA.

UK has limits even on basics such as getting a Pap smear.

Japan.... well, I am fortunate enough to get foreign satellite news. There was a very interesting expose on prominent hospital and surgeons and the socialized system. Apparently, the hospital was kept profitable (with other colluding hospitals) by signing up indigent patients for government healthcare and then cycling them trhough numerous cardiac caths... then transfering to neighboring centers to repeat the cycle....

We can go on and on and even consider the Scandinavian "healthcare related" seaside relaxation trips for stress and arthritis.

etc..., etc...

I think folks really need to consider the difference in population sizes in these wonderful nations of comparison. I think we need to closely look at what items we consider "basic" that are not included in these "all inclusive" plans abroad. We need to consider what choices we will no longer have....

Yes, I have read the lovely post and other such publications. I have also looked at the proclaimed points of greatness further then what the rosey picture suggests. This topic has also bee discussed elsewhere and I am not going to simply repost everything from that discussion.... I will just leave a link.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=670356

...In terms of finance, we force 700,000 Americans into bankruptcy each year because of medical bills...
You got to love this one.... especially when considering much of the so called uninsured. A significant percentage can afford insurance but choose not to purchase. Rather, their social lives, $200 hairstylist, fancy cars, etc... are more important. Got to admire the young 20/30 something that saves up all those thousands of dollars for the tummy tuck and breast augmentation... at the expense of NOT having health insurance. When they become sick, lack insurance because of their choices, "we force" them into bankruptcy. As opposed to them making a choice. It is comparable to saying we forced the gambler into bankrupcy when he/she spent all their funds and didn't win (i.e. stay healthy).
...we have to be willing to learn some lessons about health-care administration from the other industrialized democracies.
I don't think the debate has EVER been about not learning from others. NOBODY has to date suggested the USA system is perfect and/or could not have improvements. Though, those implications and suggestion of not learning from others does evoke a good emotional response and distraction from reality of what the debate is.

If we as a society want a socialized system, then fine. But, a fundamental principle should be maintained.... "informed consent". So, let's not talk down what we have and broadly paint nations overseas with utopian strokes. Let's make it clear to all what the warts are, what it will cost, why we need to do it (i.e. bail out over extended employment plans, i.e. unions, etc...?). If everyone knows all of this, accepts lower cancer survival, accepts longer waits, accepts delay in preventitive screening, and wants less care.... great.

JAD
 
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Keeping it current....
Apparently recommendations being made to push back age of starting screening mamograms. recommendation apparently not supported by American Cancer Society or such. It may be supported by the idea that early scans expose to radiation and increase number of "unnecessary" biopsies.... But, alot of Americans are not happy. How do we think this will play out accross the board with Pap smears, CEA, PSA, etc...? Anybody watch Farah? Plenty of people mad about not having access to the "great" German medicine like she got.... not mad because they had no cancer care, just mad cause they didn't have the ability to get stuff outside the "standard of care". Remember, she turned down City of Hope for care. That's not a shabby place. So, what do you think with a socialized system....

I think as physicians we can have compassion. But, at some point we need to apply intellect and logic that extends beyond envy and the "grass is greener" on the otherside. We also have to assure the less informed can have "informed consent" to choosing a new system. Folks need to know what it would really mean and not think it is all streets paved in gold with healthcare trips to the hotsprings for your arthritis.

JAD
 
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