Healthcare is NOT a right!

[fightingspirit]

Quantity of healthcare provided would increase, but quality of healthcare provided would decrease.

man you should check out the quality of healthcare in scandinavia....anyways, you make a great point but it does not have to be that way: if government cuts back on beaurocracy and reigns on lawyers' lobby, given that insurance is centralized and universal, then make no mistake: not only healthcare would be affordable for every american citizen/perm. res. but it will also be of better quality than what it is now. less paper work for overworked bitter physicians. more time spent with patients and better outcomes...etc

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[fightingspirit]

I attribute this to better health and genetics by the population in the UK not by how wonderful their health care is. I lived in Minnesota for 4 years and I can't tell you how many Canadians I heard tell me that the health care in "maple leaf" land isn't so wonderful. I don't see massive immigration from the "un-insured" and "healthcare seeking" of the US up north to Canada....in fact, I see tons of future healthcare professionals from Canada want to train and permanently reside in the US!

For all those who want national health coverage and want it bad enough, they should dedicate their lives to providing care to those people and not worry about the money....it is a free country, nothing is stopping all of you from dedicating the rest of your life to treating the indigent.... go right ahead. No one will stop you and I'll even nominate you for the "big-heart" award but please don't make those of us who don't believe in this "idea" of "healthcare as a right" practice that way.... It reminds me of Bill Clinton who attacked the tax cuts of the current administration.... "President Bush is giving money back to the richest one percent of America at the expense of the middle class...." I said to myself, well nothing is stopping you Mr. Former President from giving extra each year to the Federal Government, but quit requiring it from everyone who doesn't agree with you. So to all of you who feel strongly, dedicate your life to the indigent. Open up your clinics, give extra each year to Uncle Sam, no one is stopping you....

Me personally, I will philanthropically help those who I please. It might be more than you, it might be less than you (I won't really know because it is none of my business what you decide to do out of the goodness of your heart ). But what I do to "help" the unfortunate is my business. I don't need the Federal Government or "wanna-be Canadians/Europeaners" requiring it of me. Go some where else if you think it is really better and if you think it makes that huge of a difference... Why isn't everyone leaving this horrible country of such rudimentary health care for the paradise of other "promised lands"?

wow.....relax chief...hold your horses.
it seems that your i-am-an-omfs-alpha-repubican-male zeal has blinded you. take it easy now. let your wisdom guide your zeal, not your passion.

1-IT IS NOT ABOUT THE INDIGENT: even middle class people are dropping their health coverage because or rising premiums so stop that indigent business. (do some research about who lacks insurance....you'll be surprided)
2-please do not discredit our statements by portraying us as the bleeding heart spoiled liberals (you tried doing that subtly in your post and it is not nice). we are not canadian/european wannabes and we respect the ideals of this country just as much as you do.
3-please reconsider your "...nothing is stopping all of you from dedicating the rest of your life to treating the indigent.. and I'll even nominate you for the "big-heart" award but please don't make those of us who don't believe in this "idea" of healthcare as a right practice that way.."....because it is exagerated and completely out of place: NONE of us in favor of a universal health plan is saying that we wanna serve the poor bastards for the rest of our lives. i think it is fair to say that we wanna be genrerously paid and we intend to be paid that way; and we have no intention on becoming mother teressas either; your "big heart award" expression was also a poor attempt at witty creative writing.

all i'm saying is that the taxes that are ALREADY being spent on healthcare could be used better. these taxes (THAT WE'RE ALREADY PAYING) are enough to provide quality healthcare for every taxpayer if buraucracy is kept at bay, insurance becomes universal and malpractice lawyers are deterred.

you did not need to mention Bill Clinton, because it's not like your role model Bush is not a hypocrit and a scoundrel. please, we all know who make up the good-ol-boy club and we all know who's wasting--and even stealing--american taxes. let's stay away from all that.

esclavo, you know that i dig most of your posts. but this one went overboard. you also had a condescending tone that you could have done without in presenting your views.

 

[fightingspirit]

would any of you?

whenever i need healthcare, i wish i had a magic potion that turns me into a norwegian and a supersonic broom stick that would take me to norway instantly....

 

[QCkid]

Good article. But, I don't agree that it illustrates that one system serves it population better than another. A quick scan of news articles available from every source on the globe via google news, will give any reader a good idea of the benefits and drawbacks of each system. The healthcare system we have in the states is very good. I wouldn't go any other place in the world for healthcare, would any of you?

I lived in the British isles for awhile and I can tell you that if they are healthier it is not due to a better healthcare system. First of all the smartest and brightest have a disincentive to become doctors. The doctors over there have slightly higher then average salaries. I had to go in twice for emergencies and I can tell you that the equipment is old and outdated, that the diagnostic tests and diagnostic equipment available is meager compared to the options available here, and that the general conditions of the hospitals are in a decaying and almost unsanitary(in appearance) condition. Furthermore, the wait times to be seen or to get tests done are terrible.

 

[esclavo]

wow.....relax chief...hold your horses.
it seems that your i-am-an-omfs-alpha-repubican-male zeal has blinded you. take it easy now. let your wisdom guide your zeal, not your passion..

Actually I am a old fashioned hispanic american who believes I shouldn't expect others (government etc...) to do for me what I shouldn't be smart enough to do for myself.

1-IT IS NOT ABOUT THE INDIGENT: even middle class people are dropping their health coverage because or rising premiums so stop that indigent business. (do some research about who lacks insurance....you'll be surprided).

But they have big screen TV's, cell phones, high speed internet, eat out 20 times a month, leather furniture, and have huge consumer DEBT which pushes them past their income. They don't value health as much as they value other stuff. Don't talk to me about research. Never in the history of this country is the average household making more money, have more "nice things"...with birth rates down to less than two kids per couple and less than 25 percent of the households in the country with kids at all where is all this prosperity going?.... more consumer things, larger homes, ammenities, accesories etcetera....but they will drop insurance and cry for the government to help before they will live frugally and minimize their risk and financial liabilities.

2-please do not discredit our statements by portraying us as the bleeding heart spoiled liberals (you tried doing that subtly in your post and it is not nice). we are not canadian/european wannabes and we respect the ideals of this country just as much as you do.
3-please reconsider your "...nothing is stopping all of you from dedicating the rest of your life to treating the indigent.. and I'll even nominate you for the "big-heart" award but please don't make those of us who don't believe in this "idea" of healthcare as a right practice that way.."....because it is exagerated and completely out of place: NONE of us in favor of a universal health plan is saying that we wanna serve the poor bastards for the rest of our lives. i think it is fair to say that we wanna be genrerously paid and we intend to be paid that way; and we have no intention on becoming mother teressas either; your "big heart award" expression was also a poor attempt at witty creative writing..

The essential difference between a "liberal" is that someone else is always responsible for them or should have had some program for them....Bush is no true conservative at least not an intelligent conservative nor a fiscal conservative....the only thing he is, is better than an Al "I-invented-the internet" Gore or John "another-big-government New Englander" Kerry, but not by much I'll give you that...

all i'm saying is that the taxes that are ALREADY being spent on healthcare could be used better. these taxes (THAT WE'RE ALREADY PAYING) are enough to provide quality healthcare for every taxpayer if buraucracy is kept at bay, insurance becomes universal and malpractice lawyers are deterred..

Universal insurance will bring taxes over 50% in this country. If the founders of this country came back today they wouldn't believe how we have created a socialist monster with the external face of a republic. So you want the same buearocracy that manages taxes to manage the health care now? This is a contradiction. While private health care isn't perfect it isn't as bad as beauracracy health care which is exactly what you will have. Have you ever been to a federally ran establishment and saw the efficiency? Pathetic. Private healthcare isn't perfect but it would beat national healthcare by a half millenia. Imagine the beauracracy you told me of that you had to go through to get into this country. Can you imagine if that was applied to health care? Government is a necessary evil of civilization not the savior of our problems.

you did not need to mention Bill Clinton, because it's not like your role model Bush is not a hypocrit and a scoundrel. please, we all know who make up the good-ol-boy club and we all know who's wasting--and even stealing--american taxes. let's stay away from all that.

Bush isn't my buddy, but he is giving me some of the money I make back which is about the only thing you can really expect from big government. I just get tired of people who see a problem and feel so strongly about it that they expect someone else to fix it. I bet you that of all those who criticized the tax cut, not one of them volunteered that extra money back to the governement because they "felt so strongly" about it. My expectations of government are low. I believe my expectation of what government can do is more realistic than your expectation that they will be the saviors of health care in this country....I expect them to do bare essentials of protect the land from foreign invaders, take as little of my money as possible, protect my basic rights as defined in the constitution, and keep the opportunities for education as level of a playing field as possible. Even this is hard for them to do...

esclavo, you know that i dig most of your posts. but this one went overboard. you also had a condescending tone that you could have done without in presenting your views.

Knowing you and watching your posts, I take this as a total compliment and that I must be heading in the right direction...if you don't like this post then you are finally getting to know the real me... the honeymoon is over...our basic differences are that I expect people to do everything they can for themselves and sacrifice tremendously (yes that does mean work more than 40 hours a week and go without such things as TV and McDonalds )before they reach their hands for a handout or expect intervention. I believe intervention is best done by individuals and organizations other than federal government and its affiliated organizations of mandatory and universal impositions. Government is failing miserably at managing its current healthcare programs and it would only run this country's heatlhcare into the ground. Then those of us who wanted good care would have to go to Mexico or something....

 

[tx oms]

So how is the Second Ammendment a right. This is something that can be taken away from you. It is also something that you do not have in all circumstances. Sounds more like the "privelage" to bear arms. How about finding me an actual definition of "right" stateing that it is universal to all. I couldn't find that definition so maybe they have different dictionaries in Texas.

Perhaps the "Bill of Rights" is a list of laws and not a list of universal human rights? Hmm. As such, they are amendable by following our legal system. Therefore, the "right" to bear arms can be restricted to non-felons, a fact which does make the "right" a privelage. Very good. You are learning.

 

[tx oms]

what about someone who isn't naturally intelligent enough to go to college so they get a job where they work their butts off for 70 hours a week in a back-breaking atmosphere, but still get no health insurance because their company doesn't offer it and they can't pay for it out of pocket because rent and food is a priority? isn't that person's lack of healthcare wrong? I mean they work hard, but just can't get there.

If you think that's wrong then it sounds like your idea is a sort of faschistic darwinian survival-of-the-fittest philosophy (and I mean survival in the raw sense), and I think that's wrong. The weak need help too - they're ppl too.

That person needs to save money and cut their pleasure/entertainment budget down so that they can pay for healthcare out of pocket. Look, the reality is no one is going to go to the hospital in dire straits and not get live-saving treatment. Furthermore, I think, from a political position, that we should provide healthcare for some people. Still, that doesn't make healthcare a right.

 

[tx oms]

A right is only a right because we say it is so. You may claim that something is a right based on two seperate premises. One is that their is a God in the universe and that that God has laid down fundamental laws which establish said rights. Truthfully this is the only possible source of human rights that are applicable to the entire human population. The only other sources of rights are man made and are created when any group of people gather together and designate a belief or an idea as a right. Then it becomes incumbant upon that group to uphold those rights and make them effective for all who are memebers of the group. Our government has established the rights that you speak of but these rights are only their because we say it is so and we have created an establishment for upholding these rights. The truth is that human history has shown that human beings strive for freedom and liberty, but once again, unless you beleive that God has established rights, then the only other possible source is our own designation of those rights by government. Can healthcare become a right? Yes, it can. Is it a right in this country right now? No, it is not.

Excellent point. I agree 100%.

 

[tx oms]

ALLUSION:

Allusion is a brief reference to a person, event, or place, real or ficticious, or to a work of art. Casual reference to a famous historical or literary figure or event.
An allusion may be drawn from history, geography, literature, or religion....
Judging by your avatar and your little comment above it, I can clearly see that you're the type of guy who listens to Dane Cook and then acts like he is Dane Cook. Therefore you are the guy who walks around the clinic saying things like "welcome to the thunderdome", and proceeding to giggle like a little school girl. THAT'S VERY LOGICAL TO ME!

I took the liberty of cutting out some of the dumb stuff. You are wrong on all points. BTW, welcome to thunderdome, bitch!

HOW IS THAT FAIR?

Who told you life was fair?

Context The United States spends considerably more money on health care than the United Kingdom, but whether that translates to better health outcomes is unknown.

Objective To assess the relative heath status of older individuals in England and the United States, especially how their health status varies by important indicators of socioeconomic position.

Maybe America is less healthy b/c of our different culture. This study would only be valid if you randomized an entire country to either public or private care and then looked at outcomes.

 

[Galen1]

We've failed to address the negative impact on public health that big drug companies have in the U.S. All you have to do is watch a few TV commercials stateside that go a little something like this:

ASK YOUR DOCTOR about Drug "X." Side effects include..................

Why? Because you saw it in a commercial and the people in the commercial were having fun, swimming, and doing Yoga.

Because of these ridiculous adds there is an outrageous amount of overperscription going on in the states. People warm up to a drug and end up LOOKING for symptoms in themselves. Some doctors tend to agree, and sometimes even amplify the severity of the situation, in order to perscribe the drug often enough so it gets him that free cruise compliments of Pfizer.

 

[aphistis]

Actually I am a old fashioned hispanic american who believes I shouldn't expect others (government etc...) to do for me what I shouldn't be smart enough to do for myself.

...

But they have big screen TV's, cell phones, high speed internet, eat out 20 times a month, leather furniture, and have huge consumer DEBT which pushes them past their income. They don't value health as much as they value other stuff. Don't talk to me about research. Never in the history of this country is the average household making more money, have more "nice things"...with birth rates down to less than two kids per couple and less than 25 percent of the households in the country with kids at all where is all this prosperity going?.... more consumer things, larger homes, ammenities, accesories etcetera....but they will drop insurance and cry for the government to help before they will live frugally and minimize their risk and financial liabilities.

...

Bush is no true conservative at least not an intelligent conservative nor a fiscal conservative

...

Have you ever been to a federally ran establishment and saw the efficiency? Pathetic. Private healthcare isn't perfect but it would beat national healthcare by a half millenia. Imagine the beauracracy you told me of that you had to go through to get into this country. Can you imagine if that was applied to health care? Government is a necessary evil of civilization not the savior of our problems.

...

My expectations of government are low. I believe my expectation of what government can do is more realistic than your expectation that they will be the saviors of health care in this country....I expect them to do bare essentials of protect the land from foreign invaders, take as little of my money as possible, protect my basic rights as defined in the constitution, and keep the opportunities for education as level of a playing field as possible. Even this is hard for them to do...

...

our basic differences are that I expect people to do everything they can for themselves and sacrifice tremendously (yes that does mean work more than 40 hours a week and go without such things as TV and McDonalds )before they reach their hands for a handout or expect intervention. I believe intervention is best done by individuals and organizations other than federal government and its affiliated organizations of mandatory and universal impositions. Government is failing miserably at managing its current healthcare programs and it would only run this country's heatlhcare into the ground. Then those of us who wanted good care would have to go to Mexico or something....

I salute you, hombre.

 

[fightingspirit]

Knowing you and watching your posts, I take this as a total compliment and that I must be heading in the right direction...if you don't like this post then you are finally getting to know the real me... the honeymoon is over.....

what???? huh?...

 

[L8DYV]

Actually I am a old fashioned hispanic american who believes I shouldn't expect others (government etc...) to do for me what I shouldn't be smart enough to do for myself.


But they have big screen TV's, cell phones, high speed internet, eat out 20 times a month, leather furniture, and have huge consumer DEBT which pushes them past their income. They don't value health as much as they value other stuff. Don't talk to me about research. Never in the history of this country is the average household making more money, have more "nice things"...with birth rates down to less than two kids per couple and less than 25 percent of the households in the country with kids at all where is all this prosperity going?.... more consumer things, larger homes, ammenities, accesories etcetera....but they will drop insurance and cry for the government to help before they will live frugally and minimize their risk and financial liabilities.


The essential difference between a "liberal" is that someone else is always responsible for them or should have had some program for them....Bush is no true conservative at least not an intelligent conservative nor a fiscal conservative....the only thing he is, is better than an Al "I-invented-the internet" Gore or John "another-big-government New Englander" Kerry, but not by much I'll give you that...

Universal insurance will bring taxes over 50% in this country. If the founders of this country came back today they wouldn't believe how we have created a socialist monster with the external face of a republic. So you want the same buearocracy that manages taxes to manage the health care now? This is a contradiction. While private health care isn't perfect it isn't as bad as beauracracy health care which is exactly what you will have. Have you ever been to a federally ran establishment and saw the efficiency? Pathetic. Private healthcare isn't perfect but it would beat national healthcare by a half millenia. Imagine the beauracracy you told me of that you had to go through to get into this country. Can you imagine if that was applied to health care? Government is a necessary evil of civilization not the savior of our problems.


Bush isn't my buddy, but he is giving me some of the money I make back which is about the only thing you can really expect from big government. I just get tired of people who see a problem and feel so strongly about it that they expect someone else to fix it. I bet you that of all those who criticized the tax cut, not one of them volunteered that extra money back to the governement because they "felt so strongly" about it. My expectations of government are low. I believe my expectation of what government can do is more realistic than your expectation that they will be the saviors of health care in this country....I expect them to do bare essentials of protect the land from foreign invaders, take as little of my money as possible, protect my basic rights as defined in the constitution, and keep the opportunities for education as level of a playing field as possible. Even this is hard for them to do...

Knowing you and watching your posts, I take this as a total compliment and that I must be heading in the right direction...if you don't like this post then you are finally getting to know the real me... the honeymoon is over...our basic differences are that I expect people to do everything they can for themselves and sacrifice tremendously (yes that does mean work more than 40 hours a week and go without such things as TV and McDonalds )before they reach their hands for a handout or expect intervention. I believe intervention is best done by individuals and organizations other than federal government and its affiliated organizations of mandatory and universal impositions. Government is failing miserably at managing its current healthcare programs and it would only run this country's heatlhcare into the ground. Then those of us who wanted good care would have to go to Mexico or something....

wow!

 

[fightingspirit]

Who told you life was fair?

Maybe America is less healthy b/c of our different culture. This study would only be valid if you randomized an entire country to either public or private care and then looked at outcomes.

yessum...life is not fair.

by the way, when i was in grad school, one of the epidemiology professors mentioned that comparative genetic epidemiology studies repeatedly show that white americans in general have a significantly higher frequency of high-risk markers, when compared to white britons. this may be another factor.

 

[aphistis]

I've heard about that before, and it's not too surprising if you think about it. Caucasion people here are descended from people who decided "England sucks, let's jump on a questionably seaworthy boat for three months and, if we don't die en route, try to keep the bears from killing us once we get there," while the ones across the pond are descended from the folks who were just fine with their tea & scones.

 

[fightingspirit]

Actually I am a old fashioned hispanic american who believes I shouldn't expect others (government etc...) to do for me what I shouldn't be smart enough to do for myself.

oh..cooool, so then why do you let insurance companies pay for your healthcare as they please, and in accordance to their interests.....by the same token, why should americans let their employers pay for their coverage?....it seems that you're all about selfpay. hey Mr. "olf-fashioned hispanic", you ALREADY have a system in which someone else is paying for your coverage after you pay them a nice premium--if it's an HMO. there are three parties here: the patient, the healthcare provider (doc, dent, pod, pharm...etc), and a third party (insurance for young adults, medicaid for indigent and medicare for seniors). medicarehas been great and it does not undermine the quality of healthcare and it is a form of mandatory universal insurance. all i am suggesting is that we replace the young adult third party (PRIVATE SLIMY HMOs) with young adult medicare. this off course means more taxes (paid specifically for that program just like what you see on the w-2 form for medicare; instead, you see something like young adult medicare)....i, like most people, do not wanna pay more taxes just for the heck of it or just to improve "social programs".....but more taxes for the specific adult medicare program would be doable because you're saving much more than you're paying when you bypass HMOs and their premiums. think of it as another form of insurance that is less costly because the third party (the feds in this case) is not as profit-driven as private HMOs.
even if americans decide that healthcare is not a right (america has yet to answer that question), still, a universal healthplan that covers just BASIC healthcare coupled with private HMOs for more INTENSIVE care is far better (less costly and less complicated) than putting it all in the hands of the HMOs.
in both cases, the losers would be the HMOs, not you, not me, not the patient. just the slimy insurer....

But they have big screen TV's, cell phones, high speed internet, eat out 20 times a month, leather furniture, and have huge consumer DEBT which pushes them past their income.

are you stereotyping or exagerating? which is it? there are millions of middle class americans who cannot afford coverage and THEY DONT HAVE LEATHER COUCHES AND PLASMA TVs.

where is all this prosperity going?....

it is in the pockets of the top 5% sir and please consider inflation when you mention how much money households are making; it helps putting things in perspective.

... a "liberal" is..... someone else is always responsible for them or should have had some program for them... Al "I-invented-the internet" Gore or John "another-big-government New Englander" Kerry

carry on stereotyping.....

While private health care isn't perfect it isn't as bad as beauracracy health care which is exactly what you will have..... Imagine the beauracracy you told me of that you had to go through to get into this country. Can you imagine if that was applied to health care?

you're right on this one. i would not wanna see that happen. i have argued against bureaucracy in my previous posts. but this is not a problem that cannot be fixed. i truly beleive that it can be fixed. i also beleive that americans can devise ways to minimize fraud in medicare.

Government is ....not the savior of our problems.

neither are HMOs!!!

I bet you that of all those who criticized the tax cut, not one of them volunteered that extra money back to the governement because they "felt so strongly" about it.

or maybe because they don't wanna be the only ones to chip in....

I believe my expectation of what government can do is more realistic than your expectation that they will be the saviors of health care in this country....I expect them to do bare essentials of ......etc

i beleive that social security and medicare are awesome, which makes my expectations of the federal government less unrealistic than yours ....

by the way, is healthcare, or atleast basic healthcare, not a bare essential???

our basic differences are that I expect people to do everything they can for themselves and sacrifice tremendously (yes that does mean work more than 40 hours a week and go without such things as TV and McDonalds ) before they reach their hands for a handout or expect intervention. ....

although you think that this is a "basic difference" between us, i remind you that nowhere in my posts did i suggest handouts. medicare and social security are not handouts. we pay for them from our heard earned money right?

 

[fightingspirit]

guys, this has been an amazing thread. very enlightening. i enjoyed reading the variety of opinions here.

thanks


P.S: as a person who comes from a country formerly ruled by dictatorship and currently ruled by theocrats and their millitias, i cannot help but notice how beautiful it is that we can engage in debates like this without being threatened in anyway. it is such a luxury in itself. it's also very nice that we keep it civil. esclavo, tx oms, mlle, teethvader, galen, aphisits all of you folks have different and some common opinions. i truly learned a lot from them. i also apologize if i came across as self-righteous in any of my posts in this thread. keep it coming guys...

 

[TucsonDDS]

But they have big screen TV's, cell phones, high speed internet, eat out 20 times a month, leather furniture, and have huge consumer DEBT which pushes them past their income. They don't value health as much as they value other stuff. Don't talk to me about research. Never in the history of this country is the average household making more money, have more "nice things"...with birth rates down to less than two kids per couple and less than 25 percent of the households in the country with kids at all where is all this prosperity going?.... more consumer things, larger homes, ammenities, accesories etcetera....but they will drop insurance and cry for the government to help before they will live frugally and minimize their risk and financial liabilities.

Don't agree with this statement. Sure there are many people who are totally abusing the system and go buy 300 dollars worth of junk food with their foodstamps and then load it into their new suburbans but I wouldn't say this is the norm. I own a 4plex and out of all my tenants I would imagine only one of them has insurance, and that is only because she works as a secretary in a hospital. One is 55 and works full time as a line cook, just had his wife pass away and is now slowly paying back that bill out of pocket. One is 32 with 2 children, just left her husband due to him beating her up, works full time as a waitress while her dad watches her kids. The last ones are in their mid 20's with 2 kids, both have crappy jobs, but they are both working to pay the bills. They are all good people and are all providing necessary services to you and I but are all paying for medical care out of pocket. I would imagine that none of them make much more than 20K a year. Sure, they all have cell phones, but none of them have home phones. Are you saying that they shouldn't have a phone? None have big screens. None have a car that is newer than 10 years. They all pay their rent on time.

I don't understand why so many people on this forum think that productive members of society shouldn't have access to healthcare. Medical bills right now are the number one reason for bankrupcies and these bankrupcies are a major reason for the economic problems of this country today.

People here need to get off their high horses and understand that just because we have had the opportunity to attend a professional school and be in the top 5 or 10% of earners in this country we aren't any better than many of the dishwashers in this country. We have just had the opportunities that many of these people have not had and I am sure that many of your attitudes would change if you became injured and unable to continue working as a dentist.

I think many of you OMFS guys become very jaded and biased due to the populations that you work with in your residencies. I have seen these same jackasses while working with them as an RN but I have also seen many, very good people and their familes have to give up everything they have worked for during their life to provide medical care to their families.

 

[DentalSkills]

This is the key point here. The result of the goverment not providing consistent healthcare to the public throughout their lives contributes to an overall decrease in public health. We end up spending a ton of money trying to keep a person alive the last 5 days of their life in the ER because they did not have the means to get regular check-ups throughout their lifetime.
I completely understand the survival of the fittest thing, it is innate, but if you look at the bigger picture, we NEED healthcare to be available to everyone, for society to function properly.

 

[1FutureDDS]

I took the liberty of cutting out some of the dumb stuff. You are wrong on all points. BTW, welcome to thunderdome, bitch!

Ummmmmmmm.....wait........huh? You know how you have those big dreams of "owning" someone on a message board; you know.....the way you always try your hardest to look like the winner? I've never seen someone get it handed to them the way I did to you.......lol i've had people pm me to laugh about it. Quit trying to be someone you're not. You didn't come up with any of that, so shove it mmmmmmmmk?

 

[Hardbody]

Don't agree with this statement. Sure there are many people who are totally abusing the system and go buy 300 dollars worth of junk food with their foodstamps and then load it into their new suburbans but I wouldn't say this is the norm. I own a 4plex and out of all my tenants I would imagine only one of them has insurance, and that is only because she works as a secretary in a hospital. One is 55 and works full time as a line cook, just had his wife pass away and is now slowly paying back that bill out of pocket. One is 32 with 2 children, just left her husband due to him beating her up, works full time as a waitress while her dad watches her kids. The last ones are in their mid 20's with 2 kids, both have crappy jobs, but they are both working to pay the bills. They are all good people and are all providing necessary services to you and I but are all paying for medical care out of pocket. I would imagine that none of them make much more than 20K a year. Sure, they all have cell phones, but none of them have home phones. Are you saying that they shouldn't have a phone? None have big screens. None have a car that is newer than 10 years. They all pay their rent on time.

I don't understand why so many people on this forum think that productive members of society shouldn't have access to healthcare. Medical bills right now are the number one reason for bankrupcies and these bankrupcies are a major reason for the economic problems of this country today.

People here need to get off their high horses and understand that just because we have had the opportunity to attend a professional school and be in the top 5 or 10% of earners in this country we aren't any better than many of the dishwashers in this country.

1. I come from a place where the only insurance that many people have is through the government. The ones that don't have insurance it is because they are lazy. I should know this since I am describing many of my relatives. Life is tough, and if you want to make it you must bust your a$$. I have busted mine just for a CHANCE to enter a profession.

2. Many of these uninsured DO have big screen TV's, 20 inch rims on a ten year old luxury car, eat out all the time (to lazy to make their own food), leather sofas. You can believe what you want, but there are reasons why there are stereotypes. Obviously you cannot make a blanket statement about everyone (I am proof of that), but for the most part it is accurate.

Think about this, what person goes out and spends X amount of dollars on a ten year old luxury car, and then put chrome rims on it when they could have went out and bought a brand new bottom end car for the same amount of money, which would last them a lot longer than the ten year old car? The same irrational person that does not want to take any responsibility for themselves by getting a job that will provide them with healthcare, or paying into a healthcare plan that their employer offers them because they need money to go out and get high. I know way too many people like this.

3. I have worked full time for the past five years and made about 20K per year. This is what I needed to do to a.) survive, and b.) put myself through school (started at a C.C.). While I feel bad for all children that were brought into the world under bad circumstances (I was one of them), I blame the parents. You talk about a woman have multiple children. It's funny, I have never impregnated a woman yet, and I am supposed to feel bad for her because she did not take responsibility for her own actions??? My sister dropped out of high school, had a child, and now lives in the projects. I cannot tell you how much this angers me that my Godson has to live in the projects. My sister is not a vicitm, she is lazy and irresponsible.

4. I don't think it is access that is the issue. Virtually anyone that wants to get up off of their a$$ and work has access. Many people make the poor decision to not insure themselves. I nor any other "productive" member of society have to pull their weight.

5. I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about getting off of a high horse. Quite frankly, anyone that comes from nothing and makes something of themselves should be dam proud. They have busted their a$$ to get to that point. They have earned respect.

 

[mr_gestapito]

This has been great to watch and while I debated whether to post, esclavo went and summed up everything I would have said. esclavo was right on with everything he said, on the other hand, fightingspirit saying that, "medicare and social security are awesome," might be the most poorly thought out statement I have ever read. The bottom line is that bigger government is bad, bad, bad. And finally a little quote for our fightingspirit:

Norman Thomas, Socialist Party’s presidential candidate, 1948:

"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of “liberalism,” they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without knowing it happened."

 

[TucsonDDS]

1. I come from a place where the only insurance that many people have is through the government. The ones that don't have insurance it is because they are lazy. I should know this since I am describing many of my relatives. Life is tough, and if you want to make it you must bust your a$$. I have busted mine just for a CHANCE to enter a profession.

2. Many of these uninsured DO have big screen TV's, 20 inch rims on a ten year old luxury car, eat out all the time (to lazy to make their own food), leather sofas. You can believe what you want, but there are reasons why there are stereotypes. Obviously you cannot make a blanket statement about everyone (I am proof of that), but for the most part it is accurate.

Think about this, what person goes out and spends X amount of dollars on a ten year old luxury car, and then put chrome rims on it when they could have went out and bought a brand new bottom end car for the same amount of money, which would last them a lot longer than the ten year old car? The same irrational person that does not want to take any responsibility for themselves by getting a job that will provide them with healthcare, or paying into a healthcare plan that their employer offers them because they need money to go out and get high. I know way too many people like this.

3. I have worked full time for the past five years and made about 20K per year. This is what I needed to do to a.) survive, and b.) put myself through school (started at a C.C.). While I feel bad for all children that were brought into the world under bad circumstances (I was one of them), I blame the parents. You talk about a woman have multiple children. It's funny, I have never impregnated a woman yet, and I am supposed to feel bad for her because she did not take responsibility for her own actions??? My sister dropped out of high school, had a child, and now lives in the projects. I cannot tell you how much this angers me that my Godson has to live in the projects. My sister is not a vicitm, she is lazy and irresponsible.

4. I don't think it is access that is the issue. Virtually anyone that wants to get up off of their a$$ and work has access. Many people make the poor decision to not insure themselves. I nor any other "productive" member of society have to pull their weight.

5. I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about getting off of a high horse. Quite frankly, anyone that comes from nothing and makes something of themselves should be dam proud. They have busted their a$$ to get to that point. They have earned respect.

Good for you, you busted your a$$ off to better yourself, I wish everyone would do that. However you didn't have children or a family to support. Thank god you didn't have 50K in medical bills to pay and you didn't have an abusive family that took away your dreams. Or maybe you did, I don't know. If you read my previous posts I am not for universal healthcare for everyone. I am for healthcare for anyone who is contributing to this country. That does not include the people living in the projects, doing crank and beating their children. It does include people like my tenents who all have jobs, who all pay their rents. Now I don't know if you think a 1992 Buick Regal is a luxury car but I don't know of too many people who would want to drive one.

Now, what would happen if everyone followed your lead and decided to become professionals and "better themselves"? You may suddenly find yourself as a dentist washing dishes because there is all of a sudden no one else to do it. This society wouldn't work if everyone wanted a college degree and a professional job.

Very many of the uninsured in this country aren't the people you describe. Many of them are native americans living on the reservations, elderly, children of the people you describe, families broken up by divorce or death and some of the core support of this country, illegal aliens.

Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that are millions of people in this country that don't deserve our support, but there are also millions that do deserve it and need it.

 

[Hardbody]

Good for you, you busted your a$$ off to better yourself, I wish everyone would do that. However you didn't have children or a family to support. Thank god you didn't have 50K in medical bills to pay and you didn't have an abusive family that took away your dreams. Or maybe you did, I don't know. If you read my previous posts I am not for universal healthcare for everyone. I am for healthcare for anyone who is contributing to this country. That does not include the people living in the projects, doing crank and beating their children. It does include people like my tenents who all have jobs, who all pay their rents. Now I don't know if you think a 1992 Buick Regal is a luxury car but I don't know of too many people who would want to drive one.

Now, what would happen if everyone followed your lead and decided to become professionals and "better themselves"? You may suddenly find yourself as a dentist washing dishes because there is all of a sudden no one else to do it. This society wouldn't work if everyone wanted a college degree and a professional job.

Very many of the uninsured in this country aren't the people you describe. Many of them are native americans living on the reservations, elderly, children of the people you describe, families broken up by divorce or death and some of the core support of this country, illegal aliens.

Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that are millions of people in this country that don't deserve our support, but there are also millions that do deserve it and need it.

I think we are in agreement that universal healthcare would be a bad thing. I do disagree with you that if everyone decided to become a professional and better themselves are economy would be in the dumps. This is absolutely BOGUS. That is what Karl Marx would have loved for everyone to believe. Sure, everyone could not become a dentist, physician, pharmacist, etc., but these fields would benefit by attracting those that excel academically from an even larger pool. The fields that could really benefit by having additional professionals are engineering, and scientific research. The U.S. only graduates about 50,000 engineers a year. Compared to China (500,000 new engineers a year) this is a drop in the bucket. The more creations, innovations, and discoveries that are made, the higher the quality of living for everyone becomes. Thus, having more professionals (in the form of engineers) would definitely be a great thing for this country.

 

[TucsonDDS]

Having more engineers in this country isn't necessarily a good thing. Already most of the engineering jobs that can be outsourced are being given to countries like China that are graduating 500,000 engineers a year (going off of your number). If we began graduating more engineers it would dilute the market here and salaries for the existing engineers here would go down. There is no way that the US corporations would be able to sustain a profit without the outsourcing while continueing to to offer the product at current prices. I don't see too many US engineers willing to work for the 20K/year (to keep this on the right thread, that would be 20k without health insurance) or whatever these corporations are able to pay oversees for the same work. What would really be best for this country would be if people were willing to pay to keep these jobs in the US. Back in the good old days computers were a couple of thousand dollars and IBM was able to pay engineers here and manufactures. Now, even after 15 years of inflation, consumer demand has driven these prices down to $500 and there is no way that a company is able to maintain it US operations. What really should happen is the Government should put more tariffs on imported material and impose more taxes on companies like IBM, Intel, GM and all the other companies transfering jobs overseas. But are you really willing to start spending more money on US made goods.

 

[tx oms]

I don't understand why so many people on this forum think that productive members of society shouldn't have access to healthcare. Medical bills right now are the number one reason for bankrupcies and these bankrupcies are a major reason for the economic problems of this country today.

People here need to get off their high horses and understand that just because we have had the opportunity to attend a professional school and be in the top 5 or 10% of earners in this country we aren't any better than many of the dishwashers in this country. We have just had the opportunities that many of these people have not had and I am sure that many of your attitudes would change if you became injured and unable to continue working as a dentist.

First, there are people like one of the previous posters who do what it takes to ensure they have health coverage. Life is a series of decisions and prioritizing.

Second, I look at healthcare like any other good or service. Not everyone drives a porsche. Why can't every productive member of society drive a porsche? Because they can't afford it.

Maybe one problem is the increased cost of healthcare over the past. There was a time when most of medicine was based on H&P, not 200 tests. Currently there is only one tier of healthcare secondary to malpractice fears. If we had the basic tier, the mid tier, and the upper tier we could make things cheaper. Hell, we could do away with all insurance except catastrophic coverage.

What if a doctor could just diagnose a cold without doing an x-ray, strep throat test, and three or four lab panel? What if people stopped demanding a prescription everytime they go to the doctor? Healthcare costs so much b/c people want every available test and will sue if they don't get them and b/c people want a drug for every symptom they have.

We could charge a base fee for exam and an opinion, then more for lab tests but make the decision to do the test with the patient. Maybe even a low monthly fee that covers 3 or 4 basic exams per year. When I take my dogs to my vet he gives me an opinion then suggests lab and x-rays tests. I can pay extra for the test or just trust his judgement and follow-up. Why can't it be the same in medicine?

Right now your doctor feels the need to run every test b/c he'll be sued if he misses something. People can't bitch and sue when their doctor, who is only human, makes a mistake or misses something, then bitch when healthcare is unaffordable. The price of everything goes up when liablility and complexity increase.

 

[tx oms]

Ummmmmmmm.....wait........huh? You know how you have those big dreams of "owning" someone on a message board; you know.....the way you always try your hardest to look like the winner? I've never seen someone get it handed to them the way I did to you.......lol i've had people pm me to laugh about it. Quit trying to be someone you're not. You didn't come up with any of that, so shove it mmmmmmmmk?

Hmm, still a poor response. Do you enjoy being consistantly wrong? Bet it makes you feel good to get those PM's, though. Do you also have a girlfriend in Canada no one will ever meet?

 

[tx oms]

....5. I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about getting off of a high horse. Quite frankly, anyone that comes from nothing and makes something of themselves should be dam proud. They have busted their a$$ to get to that point. They have earned respect.

Outstanding. The entire post was awesome.

 

[tx oms]

Good for you, you busted your a$$ off to better yourself, I wish everyone would do that. However you didn't have children or a family to support. Thank god you didn't have 50K in medical bills to pay and you didn't have an abusive family that took away your dreams. Or maybe you did, I don't know....

You mean having children they couldn't afford and shouldn't have had? It doesn't cost anything to keep your legs closed. It costs a lot to have kids. It sounds like his family wasn't great, yet he made it.

This society wouldn't work if everyone wanted a college degree and a professional job.

You can get a good job with benefits without going to college. Regardless, you just have to live within your means and make good decisions. All decisions have consequences.

Very many of the uninsured in this country aren't the people you describe. Many of them are native americans living on the reservations, elderly, children of the people you describe, families broken up by divorce or death and some of the core support of this country, illegal aliens.

Yeah, I mean native americans have no choice except to live on the reservation. Kids and the elderly are harder. If they have relatives that can help, the relatives should help. What ever happened to the sense of family in America? Still, it is hard to find a way to give free things to poor kids without encouraging people to have more kids they can't afford. Divorce is not an excuse, it is a decision with consequences. It is sometimes necessary. Again, where is the extended family to help? Death can be eased with life insurance. I pay $33/mos for $500,000. Illegal aliens are, wait for it..........ILLEGAL!

 

[TucsonDDS]

First, there are people like one of the previous posters who do what it takes to ensure they have health coverage. Life is a series of decisions and prioritizing.

Second, I look at healthcare like any other good or service. Not everyone drives a porsche. Why can't every productive member of society drive a porsche? Because they can't afford it.

Maybe one problem is the increased cost of healthcare over the past. There was a time when most of medicine was based on H&P, not 200 tests. Currently there is only one tier of healthcare secondary to malpractice fears. If we had the basic tier, the mid tier, and the upper tier we could make things cheaper. Hell, we could do away with all insurance except catastrophic coverage.

What if a doctor could just diagnose a cold without doing an x-ray, strep throat test, and three or four lab panel? What if people stopped demanding a prescription everytime they go to the doctor? Healthcare costs so much b/c people want every available test and will sue if they don't get them and b/c people want a drug for every symptom they have.

We could charge a base fee for exam and an opinion, then more for lab tests but make the decision to do the test with the patient. Maybe even a low monthly fee that covers 3 or 4 basic exams per year. When I take my dogs to my vet he gives me an opinion then suggests lab and x-rays tests. I can pay extra for the test or just trust his judgement and follow-up. Why can't it be the same in medicine?

Right now your doctor feels the need to run every test b/c he'll be sued if he misses something. People can't bitch and sue when their doctor, who is only human, makes a mistake or misses something, then bitch when healthcare is unaffordable. The price of everything goes up when liablility and complexity increase.

I agree with you completely on this post. However, there is only on tier of healthcare in the US and that drives it out of reach for many people.

 

[TucsonDDS]

You mean having children they couldn't afford and shouldn't have had? It doesn't cost anything to keep your legs closed. It costs a lot to have kids. It sounds like his family wasn't great, yet he made it.

You can get a good job with benefits without going to college. Regardless, you just have to live within your means and make good decisions. All decisions have consequences.

Yeah, I mean native americans have no choice except to live on the reservation. Kids and the elderly are harder. If they have relatives that can help, the relatives should help. What ever happened to the sense of family in America? Still, it is hard to find a way to give free things to poor kids without encouraging people to have more kids they can't afford. Divorce is not an excuse, it is a decision with consequences. It is sometimes necessary. Again, where is the extended family to help? Death can be eased with life insurance. I pay $33/mos for $500,000. Illegal aliens are, wait for it..........ILLEGAL!

You are right, it does cost a lot of money to have children and many people that do have kids can't afford it. Should having kids be a "human right". Many people make mistakes in life and it screws up their entire life, that doesn't mean that they are bad people who deserve what they get.

Where are all of these good jobs with benefits. WalMart-good luck getting benefits. GM-good luck getting and keeping a job. Delphi- Have fun having your wages cut from 25/hr down to 10 dollars an hour. Maybe you could be a manager at the local Burger King, oh wait that is already taken. There are many jobs that are available with benefits but not enough for everone that wants one.


You seem to think that it is easy to get ahead in life. Maybe for you and I it was. We both came from good families I am assuming. What did your family do and what hurdles did you have to overcome to be where you are. I came from a supportive working class family that paid my tuition for undergrad from my fathers life insurance so all I had to do was pay for room and board. I consider myself very lucky even though it was the loss of my father that paid for school. Even though it is technically possible for many of these inner-city kids and people living on the reservation to better themselves it is hundreds of times more difficult than anything you or I would have to deal with. And are you saying that people who are paying income tax, Social security, medicare and sales tax are deserving to recieve federal aid in the form of insurance just because they weren't born here?? Many of your opinions are the very reason why so much of the world hates americans.

 

[Hardbody]

You are right, it does cost a lot of money to have children and many people that do have kids can't afford it. Should having kids be a "human right". Many people make mistakes in life and it screws up their entire life, that doesn't mean that they are bad people who deserve what they get.

Where are all of these good jobs with benefits. WalMart-good luck getting benefits. GM-good luck getting and keeping a job. Delphi- Have fun having your wages cut from 25/hr down to 10 dollars an hour. Maybe you could be a manager at the local Burger King, oh wait that is already taken. There are many jobs that are available with benefits but not enough for everone that wants one.


You seem to think that it is easy to get ahead in life. Maybe for you and I it was. We both came from good families I am assuming. What did your family do and what hurdles did you have to overcome to be where you are. I came from a supportive working class family that paid my tuition for undergrad from my fathers life insurance so all I had to do was pay for room and board. I consider myself very lucky even though it was the loss of my father that paid for school. Even though it is technically possible for many of these inner-city kids and people living on the reservation to better themselves it is hundreds of times more difficult than anything you or I would have to deal with. And are you saying that people who are paying income tax, Social security, medicare and sales tax are deserving to recieve federal aid in the form of insurance just because they weren't born here?? Many of your opinions are the very reason why so much of the world hates americans.

I want to start by saying you sound like a reasonably intelligent person, so I don't mean to pick on you (that is not my intent), but I have a couple of comments to make.

1. The reason you can't hold a job at GM is because of the guaranteed retirement packages they formerly offered their employees is costing them HUGE money. Cutting WORKING employees is the only way of cutting their current costs to within budget. This will not be a problem in the future, now that FASB has changed the accounting standards for pensions (urgghhh, bad memories of Intermediate Accounting 2). Imagine that, a guaranteed ENTITLEMENT hurting a company like that. Money doesn't grow on trees after all!

2. My current employer has a HUGE turnover rate for jobs that OFFER healthcare. If people were dying to get these extremely rare jobs why is there such a turnover rate? Because they are LAZY! I see it all the time first hand. These jobs may not be the easiest in the world, but I managed to endure them (along with nailing tough classes in school, but that is another story), why can't they?

3. I agree with you that it is much harder for inner city kids from broken homes to make it (again, I know this first hand, and have a little chip on my shoulder because of it), but it is possible. Everyone has adversity to overcome, and I'm sure there are people that have had to overcome more (maybe even much more than me) in unbelievable circumstances, but that is life. If you really want to succeed than you will. Relatively speaking, a person born under the worst of circumstances in this country has it a hundred times better than someone born in your average african country! It is all about your attitude.

4. I do agree with you that everyone who works hard should have access to some form of healthcare, and that the federal government is fleecing the working man. As it is, we are over taxed due to bull**** entitlement, wasteful pork barrel spending. Tons of taxpayer money gets dumped into ****ty programs every year. As Ronald Reagan once said, "Government is not the answer, government is the problem" (best president of all time)!

 

[Hardbody]

Having more engineers in this country isn't necessarily a good thing. Already most of the engineering jobs that can be outsourced are being given to countries like China that are graduating 500,000 engineers a year (going off of your number). If we began graduating more engineers it would dilute the market here and salaries for the existing engineers here would go down. There is no way that the US corporations would be able to sustain a profit without the outsourcing while continueing to to offer the product at current prices. I don't see too many US engineers willing to work for the 20K/year (to keep this on the right thread, that would be 20k without health insurance) or whatever these corporations are able to pay oversees for the same work. What would really be best for this country would be if people were willing to pay to keep these jobs in the US. Back in the good old days computers were a couple of thousand dollars and IBM was able to pay engineers here and manufactures. Now, even after 15 years of inflation, consumer demand has driven these prices down to $500 and there is no way that a company is able to maintain it US operations. What really should happen is the Government should put more tariffs on imported material and impose more taxes on companies like IBM, Intel, GM and all the other companies transfering jobs overseas. But are you really willing to start spending more money on US made goods.

The same article that talked about the 500,000 engineers per year in China, talked about the shortage of homegrown engineers in this country (we import engineers). This was a Wall Street Journal article (ran about 6 months ago). In fact if you look at the most sought after undergraduate degrees Acounting is #1 (this is why I majored in it, not because it is fun), followed by Electrical Engineer.

Tariffs are NEVER the answer, unless a product is partially or fully subsidized by a foreign government. It will just create trade wars, not what you want in a global economy. Americans must compete or we will not be the world leader in the future.

 

[TucsonDDS]

4. I do agree with you that everyone who works hard should have access to some form of healthcare, and that the federal government is fleecing the working man. As it is, we are over taxed due to bull**** entitlement, wasteful pork barrel spending. Tons of taxpayer money gets dumped into ****ty programs every year. As Ronald Reagan once said, "Government is not the answer, government is the problem" (best president of all time)!

Bingo, that is what I have been saying all along. I don't give a crap what you do as long as you are working and being a productive member of society. I don't mind my tax dollar paying for the healthcare of an illegal alien as long as they are supporting this economy. I do have a problem with my tax dollar paying for the healthcare of some fatass that sits on his or her butt all day complaining that they don't have any money. If you took all the money that went to these people away there would be plenty of resources to pay for social programs that actually supported those that need it.

 

[Hardbody]

Bingo, that is what I have been saying all along. I don't give a crap what you do as long as you are working and being a productive member of society. I don't mind my tax dollar paying for the healthcare of an illegal alien as long as they are supporting this economy. I do have a problem with my tax dollar paying for the healthcare of some fatass that sits on his or her butt all day complaining that they don't have any money. If you took all the money that went to these people away there would be plenty of resources to pay for social programs that actually supported those that need it.

Well then we are in agreement. As far as illegals, I feel that we should welcome any law abiding person into this country that wants to work for a living. I have no problem with this, in fact I do feel bad for these people cause they have **** for opportunities in their home countries (I try to put myself in their shoes, I think I would hop the fence myself). That being said, we as a country do need to seal the border, and keep track of who comes across the border. There are a fair amount of scumbags coming over the border as is (look at the stats on prison populations in the southwest). These people should be kicked out of the country ASAP, but the people that want to do good for themselves should definitely be allowed in, with open arms. This is assuming that they want to learn english, every other group of immigrants had to do this.

 

[TucsonDDS]

The same article that talked about the 500,000 engineers per year in China, talked about the shortage of homegrown engineers in this country (we import engineers). This was a Wall Street Journal article (ran about 6 months ago). In fact if you look at the most sought after undergraduate degrees Acounting is #1 (this is why I majored in it, not because it is fun), followed by Electrical Engineer.

Tariffs are NEVER the answer, unless a product is partially or fully subsidized by a foreign government. It will just create trade wars, not what you want in a global economy. Americans must compete or we will not be the world leader in the future.

Tell that to the thousands of electrical and computer engineers that have been laid off in silicone valley over the past 5 years. I have 4 cousins that all worked for large corporations in California, 3 at HP and one for some small company that manufactures the manufacturing equiptment to make the silicone chips. All three that worked at HP were laid off as HP shifted design and production oversees. The last one is constantly traveling oversees to instruct them how to use the machines.

 

[TucsonDDS]

Well then we are in agreement. As far as illegals, I feel that we should welcome any law abiding person into this country that wants to work for a living. I have no problem with this, in fact I do feel bad for these people cause they have **** for opportunities in their home countries (I try to put myself in their shoes, I think I would hop the fence myself). That being said, we as a country do need to seal the border, and keep track of who comes across the border. There are a fair amount of scumbags coming over the border as is (look at the stats on prison populations in the southwest). These people should be kicked out of the country ASAP, but the people that want to do good for themselves should definitely be allowed in, with open arms. This is assuming that they want to learn english, every other group of immigrants had to do this.

Total agreement.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Good discussion, keep it going.

 

[bsmcga0]

I don't mind my tax dollar paying for the healthcare of an illegal alien as long as they are supporting this economy.

how is it supporting the economy for us to pay for their healthcare, then they send american dollars back to mexico, thats great for the economy! not to mention they are not even paying taxes

 

[TucsonDDS]

how is it supporting the economy for us to pay for their healthcare, then they send american dollars back to mexico, thats great for the economy! not to mention they are not even paying taxes

If they aren't paying taxes then it is their employers who are breaking the law by paying them under the table. Anyone who is on payroll will be paying social security, medicare and income taxes (unless of course they are claiming 10). The social security and medicare taxes that they are paying comes directly out of their checks and this is money that they will never see again. How else is it good for the economy, how about providing a workforce in a country that has about a 4 percent unemployment rate. That unemployment rate is remarkably low considering 5 percent of the population is considered unemployable. The US economy is already struggling to find people to fill positions, if we lost another couple of million workers that would only get worse. Sure they send some money back to Mexico for their families, but they are still providing services in this country.

 

[rtaylor]

Read
Improving the Oral Health Status of All
Americans: Roles and Responsibilities of
Academic Dental Institutions
The Report of the ADEA President’s Commission*

This report offers great insight to the responsibilities of dental professionals

Randy Taylor

 

[fightingspirit]

I firmly believe that are millions of people in this country that don't deserve our support, but there are also millions that do deserve it and need it.

yes...this is what many guys on this thread are refusing to see...

 

[fightingspirit]

how is it supporting the economy for us to pay for their healthcare, then they send american dollars back to mexico, thats great for the economy! not to mention they are not even paying taxes

ask how many millions of dollars go to egypt and israel, both not in desperate need of aid by the way....just a reminder.

 

[rtaylor]

ask how many millions of dollars go to egypt and israel, both not in desperate need of aid by the way....just a reminder.

There will always be a level of those we can help and those we can not, we should always invest in other countries regardless if they need it or not. The return on our investment through treaties, trade rights, exchanges are huge, especially an investment in the middle east.

Through these investments our economic growth grows and we are able to have more resources to provide more care to those who can not afford it.

 

[mr_gestapito]

There will always be a level of those we can help and those we can not, we should always invest in other countries regardless if they need it or not. The return on our investment through treaties, trade rights, exchanges are huge, especially an investment in the middle east.

Through these investments our economic growth grows and we are able to have more resources to provide more care to those who can not afford it.

What on earth is happening, I find myself siding with fightingspirit to some extent. The above post is very poorly thought out (and somewhat off topic). We should invest in other countries whether they need it or not?? No, no, no, we should take some initiative to reform our own economic situation here at home, rather than hoping to artificially maintain our dollar's worth by throwing money at other countries. The "economic growth" obtained by such "investments" is artificial and will someday come back to seriously cripple our own economy.

 

[bsmcga0]

ask how many millions of dollars go to egypt and israel, both not in desperate need of aid by the way....just a reminder.

don't remember stating I support that waste either

 

[rtaylor]

What on earth is happening, I find myself siding with fightingspirit to some extent. The above post is very poorly thought out (and somewhat off topic). We should invest in other countries whether they need it or not?? No, no, no, we should take some initiative to reform our own economic situation here at home, rather than hoping to artificially maintain our dollar's worth by throwing money at other countries. The "economic growth" obtained by such "investments" is artificial and will someday come back to seriously cripple our own economy.

It isn't totally off topic considering the conversation started to trend towards immigration and investments in other countries healthcare. Our own economic situation with the advent of new technologies will only flourish through global private partnerships. If we are to provide the best for our own then we need to work with others to increase their economic situation. If we are able to partner with Mexico for example to establish a healthy viable infrastructure to promote jobs then we wouldn't have as much a migrant concern in our country. Mexico has vast amounts of natural resources that if they were only able to capitalize on them then they would be booming. There is historical examples to suggest this. And our investments in Japan, Germany, Eastern Europe have not crippled our economy in Fact it has brought our economy to the point it is at now which is robust and stable. 50 plus years ago people were arguing the same that an investment in these countries would cripple our economy.

I always find it interesting to hear people discuss on how we should invest in our country when average people that live way under the poverty level still have so much more then people who live way above the poverty level of other countries. There isn't much of a comparison but people are people regardless of nationality. We should always try to do what we can for everyone and not just our closest neighbors. I still suggest to read the article I posted earlier, here is a small part of it.

The oral health care delivery system must serve
the common good. Society grants the health professions
a large degree of self-regulation and governance.
In return, there is an implicit contract and
obligation to serve the public good. Professionalism
demands placing the interest of patients above
those of the profession. Economic market forces,
societal pressures, and professional self-interest
must not compromise the contract of the oral health
provider with society. The objective of the oral
health care system should be a uniform basic standard
of care accessible to all.

The oral health needs of vulnerable populations
have a unique priority. Every person has intrinsic
human dignity. Oral health professionals must individually
and collectively work to improve access
to care by reducing barriers. The equitable provision
of oral health care services demands a commitment
to the promotion of public health

Barriers weaken through investments and partnerships because we begin to communicate and establish interests in eachother.

 

[mr_gestapito]

It isn't totally off topic considering the conversation started to trend towards immigration and investments in other countries healthcare. Our own economic situation with the advent of new technologies will only flourish through global private partnerships. If we are to provide the best for our own then we need to work with others to increase their economic situation. If we are able to partner with Mexico for example to establish a healthy viable infrastructure to promote jobs then we wouldn't have as much a migrant concern in our country. Mexico has vast amounts of natural resources that if they were only able to capitalize on them then they would be booming. There is historical examples to suggest this. And our investments in Japan, Germany, Eastern Europe have not crippled our economy in Fact it has brought our economy to the point it is at now which is robust and stable. 50 plus years ago people were arguing the same that an investment in these countries would cripple our economy.

I always find it interesting to hear people discuss on how we should invest in our country when average people that live way under the poverty level still have so much more then people who live way above the poverty level of other countries. There isn't much of a comparison but people are people regardless of nationality. We should always try to do what we can for everyone and not just our closest neighbors. I still suggest to read the article I posted earlier, here is a small part of it.

The oral health care delivery system must serve
the common good. Society grants the health professions
a large degree of self-regulation and governance.
In return, there is an implicit contract and
obligation to serve the public good. Professionalism
demands placing the interest of patients above
those of the profession. Economic market forces,
societal pressures, and professional self-interest
must not compromise the contract of the oral health
provider with society. The objective of the oral
health care system should be a uniform basic standard
of care accessible to all.

The oral health needs of vulnerable populations
have a unique priority. Every person has intrinsic
human dignity. Oral health professionals must individually
and collectively work to improve access
to care by reducing barriers. The equitable provision
of oral health care services demands a commitment
to the promotion of public health

Barriers weaken through investments and partnerships because we begin to communicate and establish interests in eachother.

I would hardly call our current econmic standing "robust and stable," in reality we are teetering on the brink of economic disaster. It is far too detailed to get into here, but our Country sold us out economically in 1913 with the creation of the Federal Reserve, and further sold us out and essentially sealed our economic fate in 1971 by closing the gold window and eliminated a currency backed by gold. If you are really interested in discussing this matter further then private message me, cause we could go on forever here.

As for the other part of your response, I agree with your article, kind of. "The objective of the oral health care system should be a uniform basic standard of care accessible to all." Yes it should be accessable to all but it has a price. There are significant measures that can be taken by each individual that can prevent a large number of oral problems. An individuals failue to care for themselves does not pass responsibility to the health care provider.

 

[rtaylor]

As for the other part of your response, I agree with your article, kind of. "The objective of the oral health care system should be a uniform basic standard of care accessible to all." Yes it should be accessable to all but it has a price. There are significant measures that can be taken by each individual that can prevent a large number of oral problems. An individuals failue to care for themselves does not pass responsibility to the health care provider.[/QUOTE]

Individual responsibility plays a huge role in health care when they are able to be responsibile. In large I believe that we aught to try to improve and provide a level of access but it is ultimately up to the patients to decide to listen to the advise, suggestions, and to follow up. If the individuals fail to care for themselves then they by default have chosen not to receive health care.

While visiting an Indian Health Hospital in Fort Defiance a few weeks ago I was made aware of the Special Care Dentistry Act of 2005 which is to mandate coverage under medicaid for children, aged, blind, and disabled. In large these patients I believe it would be hard to argue that they are responsible for their care and so we should try to provide care to them.

There is never a perfect program but as long as we continue to work to improve on things then we are heading in the right direction.

 

[JavadiCavity]

yes...this is what many guys on this thread are refusing to see...

Don't think anyone here refuses to acknowledge that are is portion of the population in need of healthcare and without affordable access to those services. The question was whether or not healthcare is a right. And, if so, should it be provided to everyone? And, if it is provided to everyone, can it be provided at or above the same quality as it is today?