"have you placed your order for the dsm5 yet".....

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vistaril

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got asked this today by TWO DIFFERENT people in what were probably(amazing as it seems) unrelated conversations. First by an attending, and later by one of our interns. I looked at both as if they asked me if I was planning on taking a weekend trip to Mars this weekend.

After a few moments of this look(I wasnt acting or trying to exaggerate a point...I was truly baffled at such a question), I said "no, why in the world would I".....

Intern said "because it's the new dsm" and mentioned something about how we could use our book money for it. Attending said something about supporting the APA.....

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If you don't buy a copy of it, how will you know how much you disagree with it?

It seems like all those opportunities to dismiss and ridicule are just going to waste. Or at least won't be quite as good as if you knew what you were actually dismissing or ridiculing.
 
If you don't buy a copy of it, how will you know how much you disagree with it?

It seems like all those opportunities to dismiss and ridicule are just going to waste. Or at least won't be quite as good as if you knew what you were actually dismissing or ridiculing.

a fair point, but surely there will be a copy laying around somewhere if I'm working around other mental health workers.....and there is always online. Even if it isn't published it for free online(?), there will be ways to acess information about it online.

Heck I don't have a copy of the dsm-4 either....

the dsm-5 has gotten a massive amount of criticism, and not just from psych insiders. Heck it's gotten a lot of criticism from people who don't even know who Allen Francis is, so I don't think it's because of that effort. It's just because in the last decade so many people find the very concept of the dsm absurd, and that is only increasing.
 
Although I too find the DSM lacking, it's what we have to work with now and so I feel I'll need to own a copy (will use employer funds to purchase it) especially because I teach residents a fair amount (and will do quite a bit more teaching next year).
 
I similarly never bought a copy of dsm-iv (mostly because most of the criteria were online at behave.net). Part of that was because 5 was going to be coming out, and presumably 5 has everything 4 has plus updates. While none of us are going to say that the dsm is the be all and end all of our specialty (it's funny that most criticisms of the dsm don't seem to grasp the simple idea that the dsm isn't the "bible" they make it out to be), it's still an important collection of thought by the most informed folks in our field. "Thought leaders" certainly aren't perfect or even great, but nobody else has yet offered a viable alternative, other than "treating symptoms," which is what most of us are actually doing most of the time.
 
I similarly never bought a copy of dsm-iv (mostly because most of the criteria were online at behave.net). Part of that was because 5 was going to be coming out, and presumably 5 has everything 4 has plus updates. While none of us are going to say that the dsm is the be all and end all of our specialty (it's funny that most criticisms of the dsm don't seem to grasp the simple idea that the dsm isn't the "bible" they make it out to be), it's still an important collection of thought by the most informed folks in our field. "Thought leaders" certainly aren't perfect or even great, but nobody else has yet offered a viable alternative, other than "treating symptoms," which is what most of us are actually doing most of the time.

there is no *need* for the dsm.....the idea that researchers would be helpless without the structure provided by the dsm is silly. They will figure it out. You academic and researcher types would get by....

Additionally, the idea that one consistent language is only possible with the dsm is silly as well. If the dsm vanished tommorrow, mental health workers would still communicate with each other just fine. The overused cliche about 'picking up the phone to discuss a case with a colleague'(really?)....if someone were inclined to still do that they could.

Fortunately, I can see(just in my short time being affiliated with mental health) that gradually less and less emphasis/attention is being paid to DSM.
 
a fair point, but surely there will be a copy laying around somewhere if I'm working around other mental health workers.....and there is always online. Even if it isn't published it for free online(?), there will be ways to acess information about it online.

Heck I don't have a copy of the dsm-4 either....

the dsm-5 has gotten a massive amount of criticism, and not just from psych insiders. Heck it's gotten a lot of criticism from people who don't even know who Allen Francis is, so I don't think it's because of that effort. It's just because in the last decade so many people find the very concept of the dsm absurd, and that is only increasing.

I just bought Allen Frances's book, 'Essentials of Psychiatric Diagnosis" as it'smuch cheaper and lighter.... :D
 
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DSM-IIIR is a yellow green
DSM-III is dark green
DSM-II is kind of a golden tan and has lots of non-PC diagnoses
and the DSM says 1952 and is tan.
Talk about feeling old....

It is funny how every edition grows by almost exactly 160 pages.
 
Dang, I'm seriously frightened for the future of psychiatry.
Is it rational to think that psychiatry will be disproved within the next 50 years?

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I placed my order and should be getting it soon but not going to look until after I take ABPN boards in September!
 
well they don't really test on the DSM at all apparently?

I haven't taken boards yet and am not worried about them, but from what I've heard there are many questions where made up criteria, cutoffs, and timelines in the dsm is neccessary to answer the question correctly...
 
Those days are ending...

I heard the APA was quite lacking in the usual Pharma Phest regard this year. Maybe because none of them have anything new worth marketing?

Industry influence at the meeting has been fading for years, and it's because of a specific APA decision in the aftermath of their (perceived?) excess influence on clinicians/researchers/research. Given the opportunity, they'd be back in droves.
 
diagnostic categories don't neatly dissect out, and--aside from sleep apnea--none of our diagnoses is made by a lab test. this isn't DSM, this is psychiatry.

the DSM was written by a lot of thought leaders, almost all of whom donated their time for years on the project. most of us have a negative knee-jerk reaction to the term "thought leaders," but it generally means people a lot like you who spend their nights and weekends writing about psychiatry without payment. not that they don't get paid, since they often get grants and promotions for their work, but most could make more, more efficiently, by seeing patients.

Imprecise and undoubtedly slated for further change, DSM isn't some arbitrary roster of obsessional lists, it's the best assessment of psych categories we have. Critics of DSM haven't read it--it's been out less than a week--so I'll assume their hostility is a displacement from their hostility toward psychiatry. Al Frances is a bit different since he's an insider, but do note that his criticisms are generally undercut by the final product: the book does not pathologize normal stuff. if psychiatrists excessively diagnose, they're ignoring the requirement for distress and dysfunction.

And, anyway, the increasing diagnoses have developed during the tenure of Frances's DSM-IV and seem to have developed because psychiatrists don't know the DSM rules but instead just diagnose based on some other sort of internally-developed set of criteria that are almost certainly more idiosyncratic than the DSM.

I also cringe when I hear that most of us treat pharmacologically based on symptoms. Yikes. Evidence of therapeutic efficacy is based on diagnostic categories, not on symptoms. Chasing symptoms with medications is lazy on our part and often hurtful to our patients. Sometimes, it's the best that we have, but our patients deserve doctors who know their own field.

Critique away, but I don't really understand anyone being proud of criticizing a document they haven't studied, and of not having a working knowledge of the document that is probably the most robust and consensus-driven understanding of our field that exists. And a working knowledge is more than looking up codes online or imagining that the criteria for a diagnosis are either obvious (and can be concocted by each of us as we see fit) or impossibly vague (so who cares what the text might say?).
 
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DSM bashing is in vogue. It will likely pass with time. It's like bashing your city's public transportation system. It sucks waiting for the bus, but it sure beats walking.

The evidence-base for DSM leaves a lot to be desired, but it has more evidence than anything else we've got for categorization of mental illness.
 
Seroquel XR folks did give out copies according to co-resident who was in San Fran for recent APA meeting.

I expect my copy from Amazon this week.
 
DSM bashing is in vogue. It will likely pass with time. It's like bashing your city's public transportation system. It sucks waiting for the bus, but it sure beats walking.

The evidence-base for DSM leaves a lot to be desired, but it has more evidence than anything else we've got for categorization of mental illness.

Exactly. The criticism should be directed to our general lack of knowledge about brain function and mental illness, not at the DSM. It seems that most of the critics would rather that psychiatrists simply go by their personal hunches.

Having said that, it's equally important to stress that DSM should not be the end of it all of psychiatric practice, because it's still pretty much a tentative classification of mental illness based on very insecure knowledge.
 
Just as a heads up, I've noticed a few patients on various support forums who are a tad freaked about the new DSM and what it will mean to their diagnosis and treatment regime. You may have some folks who need a bit of reassurance.
 
when is the dsm 5 app for smartphones being released:confused:
 
I find it amusing that critics like Allen Frances make much of their criticism based upon assumptions -- based upon zero actual data -- of whether diagnoses will now be "over-diagnosed." They complain it will bring about an "epidemic" of diagnosis, but are simply acting no better than a psychic making such claims.

Oh, and just to be certain he makes some money off of the DSM-5 too, he publishes a book telling you how to use the DSM-5. LOL.

A lot of the criticism boils down not to the actual DSM-5 (which, all in all, is a minor update to the DSM-IV -- not really major changes in there, outside of a handful of items) -- but how it is used and misused. Especially by non-mental health professionals.

The APA has no control over how people use the DSM-5 in the real world -- and critics are being silly (and disingenuous) when they act like they could.

John
 
I find it amusing that critics like Allen Frances make much of their criticism based upon assumptions -- based upon zero actual data -- of whether diagnoses will now be "over-diagnosed." They complain it will bring about an "epidemic" of diagnosis, but are simply acting no better than a psychic making such claims.

Oh, and just to be certain he makes some money off of the DSM-5 too, he publishes a book telling you how to use the DSM-5. LOL.

A lot of the criticism boils down not to the actual DSM-5 (which, all in all, is a minor update to the DSM-IV -- not really major changes in there, outside of a handful of items) -- but how it is used and misused. Especially by non-mental health professionals.

The APA has no control over how people use the DSM-5 in the real world -- and critics are being silly (and disingenuous) when they act like they could.

John

They do have some control over preventing misuse by choice of wording. However, I am not sure to what extent the wording matters. When there is a problem it does not matter if the DSM says its a disease or not. For example, if a hoarder keeps piling up junk into their house until it becomes a fire hazard it makes no difference what the DSM says, the state is going to evict the house regardless of any wording in the DSM.

On the other hand, if a mental health professional has made a moral judgement of someone it also makes no difference if there is a DSM. If the subject doesn't fit any criteria the haters will find a way to hate, and if they do fit criteria the supporters will find a way to support. Think Lance Armstrong, the facts make no difference towards either sides moral judgement of the cyclist. The forgivers have forgiven and the haters keep hatin' regardless of any facts. When two philosophies are in moral conflict the DSM doesn't matter.
 
i am taking advantage of this interim period when you can choose which classification system you use and have been making DSM-III-R diagnoses like the masochistic/self-defeating personality disorder, ICD-10 diagnoses like enduring personality change after a catastrophic experience and emotionally unstable personality disorder, 19th century diagnoses such as Esquirol's demonomania. I am just waiting for a patient with Plato's divine madness gifted from Apollo, and the chance to use DSM-II's inadequate personality...
 
i am taking advantage of this interim period when you can choose which classification system you use and have been making DSM-III-R diagnoses like the masochistic/self-defeating personality disorder, ICD-10 diagnoses like enduring personality change after a catastrophic experience and emotionally unstable personality disorder, 19th century diagnoses such as Esquirol's demonomania. I am just waiting for a patient with Plato's divine madness gifted from Apollo, and the chance to use DSM-II's inadequate personality...

:laugh: What's the stylistic thrust of obscure historical diagnoses? Serious question. As someone who likes history, I'm just curious why you love psychiatric history and what you get out of it.
 
i wanted to be a social historian. i think i was only really interested in medicine from a sociological sense and philosophically, which is probably how i ended up doing psychiatry. i chose a program that would allow me to cultivate these interests and carve out time to essentially train as a social historian of medicine from intern year, and have advisers who a philosopher, a social anthropologist, and an epidemiologist. history is humbling. we really haven't advanced all that far in our understanding and treatment of mental illness in the past 2000 years.
 
i wanted to be a social historian. i think i was only really interested in medicine from a sociological sense and philosophically, which is probably how i ended up doing psychiatry. i chose a program that would allow me to cultivate these interests and carve out time to essentially train as a social historian of medicine from intern year, and have advisers who a philosopher, a social anthropologist, and an epidemiologist. history is humbling. we really haven't advanced all that far in our understanding and treatment of mental illness in the past 2000 years.

Very cool. Let us know when your work is getting published. I'm ready to read it already.
 
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