Gunning for Orthopedic Surgery

[Hawkxxx]

Hello SDN members,

I will start as a first year DO student class of 2021 in August 2017. I have set my mind pursuing orthopedic surgery as my medical career. I have a strong passions for that field because a lot of my medical and service experiences has involved with orthopedic medicine (my mentor who changed my mind to pursue medical school is also an orthopedic surgeon at my undergrad university). This determination sounds very crazy because a lot of people told me to wait until rotation to decide, but personally I would like to decide now so I can see and plan the path that I would take on for the next 4 years before residency. Therefore, my question is that can students that have successfully been through the residency application process and got accepted to orthopedic residency (MD/DO programs) give some tips/advice on what should a medical student like me do in order to improve competitiveness for the field? Also is there any popular thread in this forums that provide a rough guidance for gunning to be an orthopedic surgeon? Last but not least, I understand research is one of the big factors for a successful candidate, so is there a directory for research programs (such as summer programs or on-going programs) that DO student like me can participate in order to further my knowledge in the specialty? If anyone want to personally message me as well, I will greatly appreciate.

Thanks in advances,
Hawkxxx

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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

There's an entire subforum for residents dedicated to Ortho, so you can look up DO experiences and ask questions.

I think it's alright to enter medical school with a specialty in mind. That being said be open minded to other fields, you'll probably change your mind multiple times, especially depending on what you get for your board scores.

 

[Hawkxxx]

There's an entire subforum for residents dedicated to Ortho, so you can look up DO experiences and ask questions.

I think it's alright to enter medical school with a specialty in mind. That being said be open minded to other fields, you'll probably change your mind multiple times, especially depending on what you get for your board scores.

Thank you for your reply! I have redirect my question the the sub-forum in orthopedic surgery.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

It's going to be an uphill battle. AOA will be gone for your generation, but it's best if that becomes motivation to do your best.

 

[68PGunner]

Gun for Derm with the expectation that you will do Family Med in the end. Consequently, you will be happy regardless of the results.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

In short, you will probably enter Med school with another 50 people who are saying the exact same thing. You just have beat them. Higher grades, more research, higher board scores, and more extracurriculars. That's all it is.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Gun for Derm with the expectation that you will do Family Med in the end. Consequently, you will be happy regardless of the results.

I think this is very important. I know too many people that spent most of medical school borderline heart broken over the fact that they won't match into their competitive field of medicine or feeling lost about why they're even in medical school. You need to have a good grounding in reality and recognize that you're training to be a doctor first and that you need to learn that and love that itself.

Obviously not trying to be discouraging, but especially for people who want to be in competitive fields you should really try your best to be aware of back up fields that you enjoy.

 

[DOFOSHO]

I think ~90% of people who are determined to match orthopedic surgery as a Pre-M1 actually end up matching IM.

 

[uworldrelay]

It is sad that the odds of matching a non-primary care residency are not adequately conveyed to D.O. school applicants. But wait...they do say their goal is to train primary care physicians...but wait again...you technically still could match a non-PC residency...translates to: "you can do anything if you work hard enough." I do not think the amount of D.O.'s matching into specialties was ever "booming," but the amount that match each year will surely diminish especially by 2021.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Gun away I'm planning to do the same, but best to be realistic. Don't be the person with a 226 step one score who only applies ortho then complains about not matching.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It is sad that the odds of matching a non-primary care residency are not adequately conveyed to D.O. school applicants. But wait...they do say their goal is to train primary care physicians...but wait again...you technically still could match a non-PC residency...translates to: "you can do anything if you work hard enough." I do not think the amount of D.O.'s matching into specialties was ever "booming," but the amount that match each year will surely diminish especially by 2021.

I think you're making some pretty big assumptions about the op and ignoring the fact that a good deal of DO ortho residencies are transitioning and will remain likely favoring of DO students. Likewise your under the impression that everything outside of FM is extravagantly competitive or out of reach for the average DO student. Most specialties aren't that out of reach for even average or below average students even in the acgme match, or are we going to call gas and rads primary care now?

 

[jw3600]

I would be terrified to be a DO applying to ortho in 2021.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I would be terrified to be a DO applying to ortho in 2021.

I don't know if terrified is the right word. I would keep it to myself till I got a 255 plus on step one. Ortho requires nearly that much for MD's so you really need to temper your expectations. I wouldn't want to encourage blind hope, but Ortho can be done. Its like one per COM tho, so people need to keep that in mind.

 

[jw3600]

I don't know if terrified is the right word. I would keep it to myself till I got a 255 plus on step one. Ortho requires nearly that much for MD's so you really need to temper your expectations. I wouldn't want to encourage blind hope, but Ortho can be done. Its like one per COM tho, so people need to keep that in mind.

If you're dream is ortho what word would you use? It's like playing LeBron in the eastern conference playoffs. It's just not going to go well.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

If you're dream is ortho what word would you use? It's like playing LeBron in the eastern conference playoffs. It's just not going to go well.

'Unlikely' lol
Seriously, its not scary it just not likely to happen at that point. Or maybe 0.6-0.3% chance. The guy needs to recognize the odds aren't in his favor, and he didn't do himself a favor by going DO.

 

[Hawkxxx]

Thank you for your advice! If I was in your position, I would honestly think the same. What I am trying to do is to look for is a realistic approach for my plan in matching ortho residency. Yes, The AOA will most likely cease to exist, and the merger definitely poses great challenges for DO to match into competitive specialties. In other words, the chance is getting smaller and smaller, but like the meme said there is still a chance. Therefore, I would like to seek for some wise words on planning a practical strategy to match competitive specialty, specifically ortho field, based on what is currently happening. Also thank everyone else for your advice/tips/discussion on the topic. Every comment is a great way for many other students like me to have a better understanding on the issue. Please keep the comment going!

 

[SurgeDO]

Study hard. Destroy your boards (650+). Make ortho contacts starting year one. Shadow ortho PDs and assistant PDs. Email residents who graduated from your school. Apply to traditional AOA programs. Do well on rotations.

Study hard and start making ortho contacts.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I don't know if terrified is the right word. I would keep it to myself till I got a 255 plus on step one. Ortho requires nearly that much for MD's so you really need to temper your expectations. I wouldn't want to encourage blind hope, but Ortho can be done. Its like one per COM tho, so people need to keep that in mind.

Even with a 255 on Step 1 as a DO you just aren't going to get many interviews at predominantly MD programs even post-merger. Best bet is to crush the boards and apply historically AOA programs.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Even with a 255 on Step 1 as a DO you just aren't going to get many interviews at predominantly MD programs even post-merger. Best bet is to crush the boards and apply historically AOA programs.

there was an assumption that by 2021 even the former AOA will want USMLE for comparison.

 

[68PGunner]

Study hard. Destroy your boards (650+). Make ortho contacts starting year one. Shadow ortho PDs and assistant PDs. Email residents who graduated from your school. Apply to traditional AOA programs. Do well on rotations.
Study hard and start making ortho contacts.

This is pretty much common sense for nontrad students. However, in the real world, networking will go a long way. That means attending some conferences and schmoozing the attending docs with your interest. It's not as hard core as the schmoozing done in finance. You just need to be a sociable person and not be a d-bag.

 

[uworldrelay]

If you're dream is ortho what word would you use? It's like playing LeBron in the eastern conference playoffs. It's just not going to go well.

like playing LeBron and even if you're a better player than him the ref's will still not let you win. Terrified is correct.

 

[jw3600]

like playing LeBron and even if you're a better player than him the ref's will still not let you win. Terrified is correct.

Bro come on. I'm not even a LeBron fan. Have you seen his jump shot this playoffs? Homeboy isn't shooting 60% and 40% from the arc because the refs are letting him...

 

[Scrubs101]

As others have said i plan on doing everything i can to match the more competitive specialty im interested in from day 1, and if i end up wanting something less competitive it's all good. I'm open to anything from FM to peds to EM to Ortho rn so I'm not too worried, better to be prepared for something like Ortho and then not need it than the other way around


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[IsWhat]

As others have said, you won't have the luxury of AOA ortho programs. There is a lot of talk about 'DO discrimination' etc. on the ACGME side, and that definitely is a component, but I think a lot of DO students are sheltered from the reality of just how competitive MD applications are in the very competitive specialties. You need to do what MD students are doing (whatever that is for ortho) to build a competetive application, because you will be compared to them.

 

[yankees527]

Are there still going to be protected AOA spots in 2019?

 

[YouWithTheHair]

Gun for Derm with the expectation that you will do Family Med in the end. Consequently, you will be happy regardless of the results.

Couldn't agree more. Study and work like you're applying derm, evaluate your situation after step 1, then again after 3rd year clinicals. You might be surprised how satisfied you'll be with your hard work, and the decision you arrive at for what specialty you belong in. This is how I arrived at heme/onc after being sure I wanted surgery.

Also an IM plug from my perspective... many pre-M1 pups start gunning for Ortho and other surgical specialties because they like the excitement of procedures, then "relegate" themselves to the "doom and gloom" of underpaid FM/IM/primary care when they don't get that 260 step 1 score. You haven't even explored other specialties by the time you take step 1.

I started this gig thinking I wanted to do surgery, because I worked in a surgical center OR (mostly ortho/ENT) for 4 years before starting med school. That's all I ever knew. I had no idea that IM had many procedural specialties like Cards, pulm/crit, GI, and in some cases heme/onc (BMT). And even Cards has separate procedure heavy subspecialties like EP and interventional that are hardly "unlikely" for DOs, and pay extremely well.

Apart from IM, there's more to medicine than dividing it all into the ultra-competitive specialties and primary care. Someone else already mentioned Gas, Rads, EM. EM has a good amount of procedures. I know quite a few "pre-orthos" in my class that found themselves enjoying this a lot more than surgery. Interventional Rads, sports med, PM&R are also some others not typically lumped into primary care.


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[padfoot777]

I would attend fracture conference at your home program. I would try and get involved in an orthopedic research project preferably, your goal before you submit your application should be an ortho publication. With that said if you have the opportunity to get onto a project I would do it regardless of the field. The first major cut off is going to be your Level 1 score so make sure you do very well (there's forums and threads dedicated to to how do this. Quick summary= Uworld, FirstAid,Pathoma). Get an orthopedic rotation towards spring third year and try to work towards getting an LOR from that rotation. Get COMLEX PE done with as early as possible and aim to do just as well on level 2 as you did on level 1. Do well an audition rotations your fourth year and prep for your interviews well. Work hard and be helpful. Match in Febuary. Enjoy everything about life until graduation.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Are there still going to be protected AOA spots in 2019?

No, they will have to be intial accredited by then. I believe only 2 year programs can still have AOA accredidation only at that point.

 

[yankees527]

No, they will have to be intial accredited by then. I believe only 2 year programs can still have AOA accredidation only at that point.

So that means we need to compete against everyone else at that point too....

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So that means we need to compete against everyone else at that point too....

I would expect that this will be the case. Though whether the PDs hold out to try to improve matches for DOs will be seen.

 

[Dr. Death]

So that means we need to compete against everyone else at that point too....

It is my understanding that a program in the process of accreditation can choose which match they want to participate in until they are unified in 2020. So some programs may stay in the AOA and some may switch early to ACGME.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

It is my understanding that a program in the process of accreditation can choose which match they want to participate in until they are unified in 2020. So some programs may stay in the AOA and some may switch early to ACGME.

I hope that's true, but I would suspect that any program that had accreditation would want to move over, especially in a super competitive segment like Ortho. After all they get more competition and higher perception that way. Even if they were nice to us and saved half their spots for DO's I can't see most AOA Orthos that have a good amount of MD faculty, just deciding to exclude MD's for exclusions sake. In fact, I bet they are more likely to look at both in the name of being fair, and just allow open competition (i.e. no DO penalty, but minimum benefit). There are many MD's who want to do Ortho, and if these guys have more research and come from a big name institution, but maybe only had a 245 etc. That's a hard candidate for a AOA program to pass up IMO. Especially when it gives them bragging rights (see who WE got from THERE) etc.

 

[Spectreman]

There's a book called "So You Got Into Medical School, Now What?" Terrible title, but the guy is an orthopod and gives detailed and candid advice about how to get into those really competitive residencies. Spoiler alert: he's a big believer in FireCracker.

 

[Bobcat18]

At this point dude just do as well as you can in medical school, study your tail off for boards and get good quality research. This will optimize your chances at getting the specialty you eventually decide- because no offense but you'll likely change your mind... Most people do. Even if you do get the required scores and research your goals in life over the next 4 years may change. I for one thought I wanted to go into something surgical (up till a couple months ago) and scored well enough to do so- but as I went though my third year I realized my goals had changed and my aspirations for what I wanted in life did as well. You'll see... 4 years is a ton of time- people change as will their goals and aspirations. For now, just focus on doing well so that when you get to the point where you have to apply for residency- you'll be prepared to do so in any field- whether it's ortho or (likely) not. I wish you the best of luck!

 

[orthobrat]

First of all, lots of people do change their mind regarding specialties throughout med school-but not all of us. I went to medical school with the intent to apply to match ortho, and I did just that this year. Also-I am a female D.O with barely average board scores. I matched my first choice to an AOA program that will (hopefully) be accredited this year. Obviously this is "less competitive" for a DO than an ACGME program at this point in time. What you have to keep in mind though is that DO students worry that MD programs will be biased (and they are), but DO programs will likely be the same way. So applying to traditionally AOA programs that will be ACGME accredited during your cycle will be in your best interest.

As far as audition rotations go-in years past they matter VERY much to DO programs and very little to MDs. Keep that in mind. Hopefully they will still be taking those into account once the merger is complete. I am pretty sure our program will at least, as we definitely want to get to know people for a month prior to agreeing to work with them for 5 years.

All I am saying is if you think you want ortho now, give it everything you've got. I decided when I was 15 years old and every person along the way (orthopods included) called me crazy. After I got my board scores...I also thought I was crazy lol. I refused to give up on it though until I got the "sorry you haven't matched" email that luckily never made it to my inbox. I worked my tail off to earn my spot over the course of many years and it paid off. So what I'm saying is it can be done, so don't let everything you read scare you away. That being said, however, tons of people even changed their minds during audition season, which is fine too! There are so many great specialties which are all good choices.


Good luck! Feel free to message me if you have more questions.

 

[JB50]

I would be terrified to be a DO applying to ortho in 2021.

I'm ******ed

 

[jw3600]

I'm ******ed

Lol. I actually laughed out loud. I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say though.

 

[JB50]

Lol. I actually laughed out loud. I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say though.

Nvm lol I edited my post

 

[Spectreman]

First of all, lots of people do change their mind regarding specialties throughout med school-but not all of us. I went to medical school with the intent to apply to match ortho, and I did just that this year. Also-I am a female D.O with barely average board scores. I matched my first choice to an AOA program that will (hopefully) be accredited this year. Obviously this is "less competitive" for a DO than an ACGME program at this point in time. What you have to keep in mind though is that DO students worry that MD programs will be biased (and they are), but DO programs will likely be the same way. So applying to traditionally AOA programs that will be ACGME accredited during your cycle will be in your best interest.

As far as audition rotations go-in years past they matter VERY much to DO programs and very little to MDs. Keep that in mind. Hopefully they will still be taking those into account once the merger is complete. I am pretty sure our program will at least, as we definitely want to get to know people for a month prior to agreeing to work with them for 5 years.

All I am saying is if you think you want ortho now, give it everything you've got. I decided when I was 15 years old and every person along the way (orthopods included) called me crazy. After I got my board scores...I also thought I was crazy lol. I refused to give up on it though until I got the "sorry you haven't matched" email that luckily never made it to my inbox. I worked my tail off to earn my spot over the course of many years and it paid off. So what I'm saying is it can be done, so don't let everything you read scare you away. That being said, however, tons of people even changed their minds during audition season, which is fine too! There are so many great specialties which are all good choices.


Good luck! Feel free to message me if you have more questions.

Wow, you're my hero!