Graduate Entry Medicine - Becoming more popular in Australia?

[Hope2008]

I have heard from a friend that University of Melbourne will offer an MD degree similar to the U.S.

Is it getting more popular to have graduate entry medicine programs among Australian medical schools?

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[Raigon]

I have heard from a friend that University of Melbourne will offer an MD degree similar to the U.S.

Is it getting more popular to have graduate entry medicine programs among Australian medical schools?

I think the University of Melbourne's MD is actually for marketing purposes, because MBBS (from other universities) is essentially the same as MD in Australia and is recognized as equivalent to MD in the United States. So aside from a cool looking name, there really isn't any benefits to having an MD. However with the MD title, Melbourne has an excuse to raise the GEMP program cost to a mad high rate and add strict prerequisites, which can get quite annoying.

Not that Melbourne is bad, of course, still one of the if not most reputable medical school in all of Australia. Not sure if being more expensive is because there were actual changes in the curriculum, but to me I'd observe the first year or two and hear it from some of the students before applying.

And yes, graduate entry medicine is getting more and more popular as opposed to the old undergraduate entry. I think it should be that way, because there are plenty of people from different majors who will eventually want to go to medicine while undergraduate medicine takes people fresh out of high school so it will be highly competitive if alone. With both options, it keeps two routes available and doesn't shut out every out of the medical career.

Be careful though. Australia trains doctors for Australia. It does NOT train you to take the USMLEs or prepare you to go back to the United States. Some schools like Flinders, Queensland, or Sydney do have ties (not sure about Melbourne) with the United States, but do expect you to form your own study groups and if you want to return to the US to practice, you should expect to know how to do that on your own.

But aside from that, Australia's medical programs are awesome. They train you to be top notch physicians that may even surpass the United States in doctor-patient communication. America focuses more on the science, though so Australia's science foundation I may find to be slightly lacking as opposed to the solid science background US medical schools provide you with. But that being said, their clinical school teachers are very talented and because they are accustomed to teaching people without a science background, it tends to be more understandable and students are more able to keep up with date with everything else.

And a plus side for Graduate Entry medicine (GEMP) is that they accept MCAT scores from international students to take the place of their Graduate Australian Medical School Admissions test (GAMSAT). And they do not judge where you graduated from as long as it's a tertiary institution that's recognized, unlike the US which ONLY accepts US undergraduate students.

But Australian medical schools are MAD expensive and US federal loans will only distribute half of what they give to US medical students to US citizens studying in foreign medical schools.

 

[Raygun77]

Awesome reply raigon- really detailed and spot on. The MD title is simply for show. In fact, a lot of the (especially older) docs went up in a furore once they heard of this change, since in commonwealth countires MD has traditionally signified a higher research degree (one step below a PHD), which will cause some confusion!

In general, yes, we are finding more graduate based medical schools in australia. Whether this is a reflection of changing opinions towards undergrad vs postgrad med students or an effort to attract more north american students i dont know, but in Victoria alone 3 new graduate programs will have opened up in the last 3 years (prior to this there were only two med schools in the state!)

* melb uni is changing to grad (MD)

* deakin uni has opened (MBBS)

* Monash uni has opened a gippsland campus (MBBS)

Raigon is spot on when he says the basic science syllabus in australia is far more facile than what is covered in the states. it will NOT prepare you for USLME at all. I'm a unimelb student and i haven't heard of any groups of students forming study groups to take the USLME. Not in my friends group. It has been thrown around by a few people however- mainly for the sake of doing a US elective (many of the top hospitals now require it for a 4 week rotation!). Perhaps UQ is more conducive to studying for step 1?

That being said, melb uni has a rep for having a stronger basic science background. We covered a lot of things (for better or worse...) that my friends at monash uni didn't touch. Whether memorising glycolysis in all its glory will have an impact on our medical careers time will tell!

And raigon is correct again in saying there are prereqs at melb- not at monash or deakin or any other grad school as far as i know. I believe second year anatomy and physiology is a must. This was justified as unlike in the states, the 4 years of med school are split 1 year preclin and 3 year clinical, so the preclinical training is slightly more truncated. In comparison as an undergrad student, we get 2.5 years preclin and 2.5 years clinical with a year of research (B. med sci awarded) in between.

 

[Hope2008]

Thank you very much for Raigon and Raygun's input. I appreciate the detailed and long reply greatly.

 

[rayjay]

just an aside about the Melb pre-reqs as I brought this question up when speaking with Prof. Hawthorne. I don't have a second year anatomy pre-req but I do have Biochem and Physiology at senior levels (with physiology at the graduate level).

She mentioned that they could make a consideration if you did not have one of these but demonstrated that you had higher level training in another. For me, having taken physiology at the graduate and undergrad level seems to be ok. However, I assume there would be somewhere in the application to request this consideration or at least draw attention to it.

 

[shan564]

In addition to those schools in Vic, a lot of other graduate entry programs have also opened up. In NSW, there's Notre Dame and Wollongong, and also ANU (which isn't exactly in NSW, but has been considered a NSW school for the purpose of internship matching). Meanwhile, Melbourne is closing their undergrad program, and I think Queensland is doing that too. Overall, the spectrum is slowly shifting towards graduate-entry.

On the other hand, there have also been more undergrad-entry schools opening up - although I can only think of one in NSW (Western Sydney), and it doesn't have the best reputation.

 

[skatertudoroga]

Can you tell me about this "patient interaction" that Australia focuses on instead of science? How are the clinical clerkships different amongst Australian universities such as sydney, flinders, melbourne? And how are they different from American clerkships?


And the other question I have is what would be your plan if you went to Australia with the goal of returning to USA? Let's say you take usmle after year 2, before the start of clerkships; during years 3 and 4 try to take some electives in USA? If you are in Sydney, it would be advantageous to do research(thesis)? What could you gain from doing research other than it's "interesting"?
So let's say you are in your 4th year and applying to american residencies. I presume that you would apply outside of the match since you graduate in November? So what happens if you don't match in USA but match in New Zealand? In fact, what happens if you set it as your goal to do an internship in Australia/New Zealand? Would you then have an advantage when applying for pgy-1 in ER in USA? Or would it not matter since they cannot evaluate whatever training you are getting in a different country?

I think one of the reasons that I might be interested in studying in Australia is that even though the cultural differences are not great and Australia would not be on my top list of places to visit as a tourist, I feel as a medical student you can still get something interesting out of seeing foreign patients. It might even be best if they're not too foreign. And I wonder if I studied at a school like Sydney whether I would be able to take electives in Sweden in addition to USA or it would be impossible to fit into the curriculum? Analogously for Flinders-> is it possible to participate in that exchange with UK(though I have not much interest in UK, it's better than nothing) if you are hoping to match in usa?


And 1 last question. If you graduate from a school in australia without getting PR or anything, get residency in usa, and then decide to return to australia to practice, would you then be subject to the 10year moratorium? Or would there be any other advantage or disadvantages relative to somebody who did all his training in usa?
Thanks.

 

[skatertudoroga]

Also if you graduate from australian med school and can't get a residency is it possible to find a job as a research assistant(I know those jobs pay 70k/yr in australia) and get PR that way(as a biologist)? Or you would not be hired unless you already have PR?

 

[shan564]

Yeah, you could do that.

 

[redshifteffect]

If you graduate from a school in australia without getting PR or anything, get residency in usa, and then decide to return to australia to practice, would you then be subject to the 10year moratorium?

Yes.

 

[tjeliong]

Hello,

I am considering to transfer to Melbourne Uni's MD programme (or more accurately, to start from year 1 again) my medical school now focuses too much on research and science, quite neglecting clinical skills that even the senior doctors are dead worried...

Do you happen to be in Mel U's MD programme? If yes, may I know how the clinical years work out? Like, what rotations do we have and how many weeks are allocated for each rotations?

Thanks a lot!