Grades in Medschool and other such topics

[Akscal]

I know that this has been asked before, but I am going to ask it again. What are competitive first and second year grades for a person interested in ophthalmology? What would be a good ratio in terms of passes, high passes, and honors? Any suggestions? How can I prepare myself to be competitive in medschool besides getting good grades?

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[SDN-helper]

I think you should just take my approach... do the best you can. I'm currently passing:HPing:Honoring 50:50:0. (Have yet to honor a course)

It's disappointing, and many people would have quit by now, but I'm still trying my hardest. So, I did research and will probably be publishing in the Journal of Ophthal, just to supplement my grades.

I would not be in medical school today if I give up that easily. No one is going to persuade me from persuing Ophthal. Besides, internal med. is my #2 choice (as of today)- but that's just me.

Assuming my grades continue this way... is it that bad?

 

[3rdSight]

No one is going to persuade me from persuing Ophthal. Besides, internal med. is my #2 choice (as of today)- but that's just me.QUOTE]

Is Ophthalmology really for you? Ophthalmology is a SURGICAL field. If one's second choice is internal medicine, one should reassess if they really are suited to go into ophthalmology.

I would think 2nd choices should be
Neurosurgery (if fine surgery, prestige, and pay desired but hours are lousy)
Orthopedics (unless one is afraid of work)
ENT (but this is probably harder to get than Ophthalmology)

Urology (surgical, but easier hours)
Plastic Surgery (if cosmetic, easy hours, if functional, then not as easy)
Colorectal Surgery (easy hours, colonoscopies pay well)

Derm (very easy hours, a few procedures that can pass as surgery)

 

[SDN-helper]

No one is going to persuade me from persuing Ophthal. Besides, internal med. is my #2 choice (as of today)- but that's just me.QUOTE]

Is Ophthalmology really for you? Ophthalmology is a SURGICAL field. If one's second choice is internal medicine, one should reassess if they really are suited to go into ophthalmology.

I would think 2nd choices should be
Neurosurgery (if fine surgery, prestige, and pay desired but hours are lousy)
Orthopedics (unless one is afraid of work)
ENT (but this is probably harder to get than Ophthalmology)

Urology (surgical, but easier hours)
Plastic Surgery (if cosmetic, easy hours, if functional, then not as easy)
Colorectal Surgery (easy hours, colonoscopies pay well)

Derm (very easy hours, a few procedures that can pass as surgery)

Yes, Ophthal is really for me... it is a right mix of medicine and surgical procedures... on top of that, it has a lifestyle that anyone would like. Ophthal isn't all about surgery. I believe that Ophthal needs to know a great deal about medicine to treat the disease of the eye, not only by surgical intervention.

Neuro+ Ortho: hours are not that attractive
Plastics, Derm, ENT: there's no way i will be qualified.
Any form of surgical subspecialties: Too much surgery, not enough medicine- also unattractive hours.

- Just my thoughts.

 

[jkin]

I have a Q? Are plastics, Derm, and ENT that much harder to get into than Ophthalmology?

 

[Andrew_Doan]

I think Derm and ENT are more competitive.

I don't think grades in the first two years matter much. During the clinical years, your performance during medicine, surgery, and ophthalmology electives matter most.

 

[Toadkiller Dog]

With all due respect, I think that is bullpuckey. If your grades aren't up to snuff (and most schools only issue "grades" in the first 2 years; H/P/F after that), you will not receive many interviews unless some other part of your app is outstanding.

I was on the admissions committee for our med school, and I have talked to a few of the program directors for residencies at our school, and I can tell you 2 things for sure, which I am sure apply at least somewhat to residency apps as well:

1. Grades DO matter, but they they are only 1 part of the pie that also includes board scores, research, LOR's, what school you come from, awards/honors, leadership/community service, and "other" (like if you won an Olympic medal or starred in a Broadway show or if you know somebody important).

2. All programs are a little different in what they value. Our school, being small, puts a *lot* of importance on the interview (too much, IMHO). Others care a lot about what school you come from. Still others want to see that you are at the top of your class and preferably AOA, but the school might not be that important.

So it boils down to that old cliche: if you really want to do it, bust your tush to polish your app in the areas you can, and you may be surprised.

Just my $.02

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Do you really think whether or not an applicant getting A's during the first two years of medical school will dictate if they'll get an interview or not?

It matters less than you may think.

First, many schools do PASS/FAIL during the preclinical years and then Honors/High Pass/Pass/Fail during the clinical years. Because of this inconsistency in grading, it's difficult to compare student A from a Pass/Fail school to student B with letter grades. Therefore, preclinical grades are not standardized and not a good measure for comparison, unlike the USMLE.

Second, when considering an application, I think the preclinical grades are rather low in importance. There are many other factors that are more important than the preclinical grades (as you mentioned above), such as: USMLE, letters of recommendation, personal statement, clinical grades, AOA, ophthalmology electives, volunteer work, and awards/honors. I agree with you that the preclinical grades matter enough to not fail any courses, but getting all passes during the first two years will not prevent an applicant from matching well.

BTW, Honors/High Pass/Pass/Fail are grades too.
Honors = A, HP = B, and Pass = C.

 

[golgi]

Do you really think whether or not an applicant getting A's during the first two years of medical school will dictate if they'll get an interview or not?

It matters less than you may think. I agree with you that the preclinical grades matter enough to not fail any courses, but getting all passes during the first two years will not prevent an applicant from matching well.

I sure hope you are right!

 

[Andrew_Doan]

I sure hope you are right!

Let's put it this way.

I've seen AOA, 250+ USMLE scores, and almost straight A's being denied interviews b/c the personal statement and letters of recommendation were mediocre/horrible. However, I don't see many applications being denied interviews because they didn't have A's during their first two years of medical school.

 

[Toadkiller Dog]

The grades from the 1st 2 years are what determines almost entirely one's class rank and AOA status.

Andrew, you're going to look me in the eye (uh, monitor?), and tell me you've never seen anyone turned down for an interview because their class rank was, say, 131/155?

To punctuate my point, I just received a letter from the University of Florida that reads as follows:

"The University of Florida Department of Ophthalmology selection process is based on"

1. Medical School standing and grades
2. The quality of your 3 letters of recommendation
3. A demonstrated previous interest in the field of ophthalmology i.e. research etc.
4. Personal attributes, life experiences, professional goals, etc."

Soooooo.......what percentage of Iowa interviewiees are in the bottom 1/3rd of their class? If grades don't matter, it should be roughly 33%, right?

I'm not trying to be a thorn in your side, just being a realist.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

The grades from the 1st 2 years are what determines almost entirely one's class rank and AOA status.

This is not entirely true. I spoke with a resident from Indiana, and AOA selection there is based on:

1/4 Pre-clinical grades
1/4 USMLE Step 1
1/2 clinical grades
Also considered are what professors think of students.

This is another example of the pre-clinical grades not having much weight in comparison to other factors, such as the USMLE and clinical grades.

Compare the credit hours given for anatomy vs the medicine clerkship. Anatomy is worth 1/4 to 1/3 of the number of credit hours earned during the medicine rotation.

Andrew, you're going to look me in the eye (uh, monitor?), and tell me you've never seen anyone turned down for an interview because their class rank was, say, 131/155?

Why does it have to be either AOA or bust? What about the applicants who are the top 25%, or top 50%? Only 10-15% of a medical school class will be selected for AOA. In my class, there were 7 applicants who matched and less than half were AOA. The 2002 graduating class of Indiana had 9 applying for ophthalmology: 8 matched with 4/8 being AOA.

I agree with you that if an applicant is at the bottom of the class, then his/her chance is poor without some other super human accomplishment; however, not being AOA is not a deal breaker.

Soooooo.......what percentage of Iowa interviewiees are in the bottom 1/3rd of their class? If grades don't matter, it should be roughly 33%, right?

AOA will definitely help an applicant match at a top 10 or 20 program. However, there are applicants who match at Iowa who are not AOA. They may not be the botton 1/3rd of their class, but they weren't AOA either. Outside of the top 20 programs, AOA and pre-clinical grades may be less important.

If you want to be realistic, then consider this:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3103

In 2004, only 20% who matched were AOA. I guess the remaining 80% non-AOA medical students were just lucky.

 

[doc05]

In my class, there were 7 applicants who matched and less than half were AOA.

Of course, that was at Hopkins. For applicants coming from mid-tier schools, wouldn't AOA be more important?

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Of course, that was at Hopkins. For applicants coming from mid-tier schools, wouldn't AOA be more important?

Sure. But keep in mind that only 20% of the students who matched in 2004 were AOA. The remaining non-AOA applicants who matched were NOT all from top 10 medical schools.

I'm just trying to emphasize that AOA is not everything. I've heard advisors tell students they had to be AOA to match, but this is simply not true.

 

[Jaded Soul]

I've seen AOA, 250+ USMLE scores, and almost straight A's being denied interviews b/c the personal statement and letters of recommendation were mediocre/horrible.

What would be examples of things that make personal statements and letters mediocre/horrible?

 

[Andrew_Doan]

What would be examples of things that make personal statements and letters mediocre/horrible?

Being that I am part of the admissions process this year, I rather not list examples. In general, PS should show dedication to the field, PS should be free of spelling and other errors, and goals of the student should match their previous activities.

In general, everyone should submit at least one letter from an ophthalmologist. Because letter content is beyond a student's control, there's not much that can be done. Good letters usually have the following format:

1) Introduction to describe the writer's relationship with you. The writer should address how long and to what extent has been your relationship, e.g. "I've been Andrew's clinical instructor for 2 years..." Also it should be stated why the letter is written, e.g. medical school application, scholarship, residency, etc...

2) Statement of how you compare to other students they've worked with. Are you the best ever? Are you in the top 5%, 10%, quartile, etc...

3) Specific statements and details about your character and qualifications.

4) Closing summary.