Going to Dental School Will Almost Surely Wreck Your Finances

[schmoob]

Let's get the thread back on topic. @setdoc7 please repost any questions I don't answer here. I'd love to discuss some of the things I'm seeing now vs the extensive experience you've had in dental education (being serious here and with respect, not sarcastic)

Even if you're a pediatrician, you likely have access to the PSLF program meaning what you pay on your loans is capped at the payments on REPAYE or PAYE over 10 years. That is about 20% to 50% of the amount you actually borrow. Same goes for neurosurgeons. Because of the structure of physician training, most only have to work at a not for profit hospital for 4-6 years as an attending and the remaining loan balance is wiped away.

Dentists do not have this same student loan benefit, and it means that the cost of dental school for a typical dentist vs cost of medical school for a typical doctor is about 2 to 4 times as high. So under the current student loan regime, it almost doesn't matter what specialty you choose. Almost all of them are better financial decisions that dentistry bc of this change in the student loan rules.

I'm not defending the financial soundness of becoming a psychologist. I've seen a lot of those with really high debt to income ratios.

Yes I'm contributing some to her student loans so we can be debt free sooner. Her debt to income ratio is about 0.4 and we expect to be debt free within the year. She's also making about double what an associate dentist would earn in an academic setting where she gets lots of benefits a private practice owner wouldn't get

Not sure if I'm misreading this or not, BUT ARE YOU ACTUALLY TRYING TO SAY DENTISTS ARE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR PSLF?

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[Student Loan Planner]

Not sure if I'm misreading this or not, BUT ARE YOU ACTUALLY TRYING TO SAY DENTISTS ARE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR PSLF?

I mean the typical dentist is not eligible for PSLF, because the typical dentist works at a for profit employer. Even in cases where the dentist is treating majority medicaid patients, the employer is usually not a 501c3 organization. The typical doctor however works for a 501c3 hospital during residency and then a lot of them stay on at a 501c3 hospital as attendings. Absolutely some dentists work at not for profit clinics or community health centers and can and should go for PSLF, however PSLF is unusual compared to being common among doctors.

How do you feel about going to dental school, going into debt, and then straight into private practice ownership within the first year? You can dramatically increase your income as well as decrease the taxes you pay but obviously would be adding 500k in business debt as well.

Most dentists I've spoken with really discourage new grads from going straight into ownership. They've suggested I modify my advice to say that new grads should do an associate year, get better and faster clinically and learn more about business, and then go into practice ownership after year 1 is over. 500k is business debt is at least secured by an asset unlike student debt. You can't pay too high a price for a practice, but if you get a decent one for 50% to 70% production statistically you will probably be ok if you work hard and live modestly.

 

[DentistScientist]

Did I just find EighteenstreetloungePUA?

View attachment 216083

Hey man, I apologize for my comments today. I learn that there will be quite a lot of people in dental school with different views than mine.

In response, I will do my best to not to ruin their vibe. And also, i will not openly broadcast that i am a dds phd student cause these future classmates of mine will be very sensitive about the amount of loan they have to take out and the amount of scholarship i will receive.

I will also make sure that i apply for my own nih grant so that another student in my school can receive the same scholarship i receive.




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[schmoob]

I mean the typical dentist is not eligible for PSLF, because the typical dentist works at a for profit employer. Even in cases where the dentist is treating majority medicaid patients, the employer is usually not a 501c3 organization. The typical doctor however works for a 501c3 hospital during residency and then a lot of them stay on at a 501c3 hospital as attendings. Absolutely some dentists work at not for profit clinics or community health centers and can and should go for PSLF, however PSLF is unusual compared to being common among doctors.

PSLF is common among doctors? How common? BTW, the term you are looking for is physicians.
I think you need to research Federal student loan programs a little more. There has literally never been a single person, of ANY profession, who has had their student debt wiped because of PSLF.

 

[allantois]

PSLF is common among doctors? How common? BTW, the term you are looking for is physicians.
I think you need to research Federal student loan programs a little more. There has literally never been a single person, of ANY profession, who has had their student debt wiped because of PSLF.

PSLF was introduced in 2007, so the program will start writing loans off later this year.
Most hospitals are non-for-profit entities. Most physicians work for hospital organizations.

 

[kidsaremypassion]

To be fair, I don't necessarily think its wise to depend on government loan forgiveness programs as an out.
As we all can see, policies change at the whim of whoever composes the administration in Washington at the time.
I wouldn't attend med school for 400k either..Especially as one enters blind, no idea if you'll have certain lucrative specialties open to you during year 3 to justify paying that much in tuition.
No matter what path you choose, its important to be financially frugal throughout the process of obtaining an education.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

PSLF is common among doctors? How common? BTW, the term you are looking for is physicians.
I think you need to research Federal student loan programs a little more. There has literally never been a single person, of ANY profession, who has had their student debt wiped because of PSLF.

In the past, programs like these grandfather in persons who have been working towards the program. Supporting this is the Republican repeal proposal from 2015, which repealed PSLF but exempted persons who already had the PSLF language in their promissory notes.

I've consulted with some legal folks about this, and they all seem very certain that eliminating PSLF for any loans that actually contain the language written into the promissory note would be very difficult to do. For that reason, I think anyone borrowing through the end of 2018 will have access to PSLF for those loans 10 years later. For any new loans after that point I think it's very uncertain with the looming reauthorization of the Higher Education Act on the horizon

It's also worthwhile to note that almost nobody will receive PSLF in the first few years of the program as few people had eligible loans in 2007-2008. We'll see the first large basket of loans get forgiven in 2019, at which point I think the public will care and they'll repeal it for folks who'd have eligibility in 2029, which would include the class of 2021 to be fair. Recently graduated dentists are really dealing with a stacked deck against physicians. It's going to make the US News lists that keep putting dentistry at the #1 spot really look foolish when the difference in loan treatment among the professions becomes apparent in the next couple years

 

[allantois]

To be fair, I don't necessarily think its wise to depend on government loan forgiveness programs as an out.
As we all can see, policies change at the whim of whoever composes the administration in Washington at the time.
I wouldn't attend med school for 400k either..Especially as one enters blind, no idea if you'll have certain lucrative specialties open to you during year 3 to justify paying that much in tuition.
No matter what path you choose, its important to be financially frugal throughout the process of obtaining an education.

Still, medical colleagues will always have a better case to make for appealing to the government for help with their loans. One reason medical education is cheaper is because medical schools are able to secure a lot of funding from private donors. Now, I really haven't seen that many people donate to dental schools. I mean, who in the general population would want to help the "greedy" dentists (#1 US News profession)?

 

[schmoob]

In the past, programs like these grandfather in persons who have been working towards the program. Supporting this is the Republican repeal proposal from 2015, which repealed PSLF but exempted persons who already had the PSLF language in their promissory notes.

I've consulted with some legal folks about this, and they all seem very certain that eliminating PSLF for any loans that actually contain the language written into the promissory note would be very difficult to do. For that reason, I think anyone borrowing through the end of 2018 will have access to PSLF for those loans 10 years later. For any new loans after that point I think it's very uncertain with the looming reauthorization of the Higher Education Act on the horizon

It's also worthwhile to note that almost nobody will receive PSLF in the first few years of the program as few people had eligible loans in 2007-2008. We'll see the first large basket of loans get forgiven in 2019, at which point I think the public will care and they'll repeal it for folks who'd have eligibility in 2029, which would include the class of 2021 to be fair. Recently graduated dentists are really dealing with a stacked deck against physicians. It's going to make the US News lists that keep putting dentistry at the #1 spot really look foolish when the difference in loan treatment among the professions becomes apparent in the next couple years

You have officially lost all credibility.

 

[schmoob]

PSLF was introduced in 2007, so the program will start writing loans off later this year.
Most hospitals are non-for-profit entities. Most physicians work for hospital organizations.

I know this. I was trying to illustrate that a program can't be more common for one group over another when the total count is zero.

 

[kidsaremypassion]

Still, medical colleagues will always have a better case to make for appealing to the government for help with their loans. One reason medical education is cheaper is because medical schools are able to secure a lot of funding from private donors. Now, I really haven't seen that many people donate to dental schools. I mean, who in the general population would want to help the "greedy" dentists (#1 US News profession)?

And you don't think physicians are stereotyped as "greedy" one per centers too?
It's easy to dismiss the necessity of dental care...till you end up in the ER due to cellulitis and Ludwigs. Part of the appeal of dentistry has been the ability to "fly under the radar" so to speak. Being seen as more vital to health care as you seem to be implying is a two edged sword. Along with that position comes the idea that everyone is entitled to your services..here in comes the ultimate dependence on insurance and public welfare. This is also why primary care physicians rarely own their own practices..They can't compete with the likes of Hermann and Methodist. It also explains why the income for most primary care physicians ( which is where most medical students end up ) hovers around 200k or maybe a tad more.
It's important to take a broad look at both paths as these nuances are what will.influence your day to day experience and practice.

 

[x0jessmariex3]

In the past, programs like these grandfather in persons who have been working towards the program. Supporting this is the Republican repeal proposal from 2015, which repealed PSLF but exempted persons who already had the PSLF language in their promissory notes.

I've consulted with some legal folks about this, and they all seem very certain that eliminating PSLF for any loans that actually contain the language written into the promissory note would be very difficult to do. For that reason, I think anyone borrowing through the end of 2018 will have access to PSLF for those loans 10 years later. For any new loans after that point I think it's very uncertain with the looming reauthorization of the Higher Education Act on the horizon

It's also worthwhile to note that almost nobody will receive PSLF in the first few years of the program as few people had eligible loans in 2007-2008. We'll see the first large basket of loans get forgiven in 2019, at which point I think the public will care and they'll repeal it for folks who'd have eligibility in 2029, which would include the class of 2021 to be fair. Recently graduated dentists are really dealing with a stacked deck against physicians. It's going to make the US News lists that keep putting dentistry at the #1 spot really look foolish when the difference in loan treatment among the professions becomes apparent in the next couple years

Really dumb question: what's PSLF?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Really dumb question: what's PSLF?

Public Service Loan Forgiveness.

Big Hoss

 

[DentistScientist]

And you don't think physicians are stereotyped as "greedy" one per centers too?
It's easy to dismiss the necessity of dental care...till you end up in the ER due to cellulitis and Ludwigs. Part of the appeal of dentistry has been the ability to "fly under the radar" so to speak. Being seen as more vital to health care as you seem to be implying is a two edged sword. Along with that position comes the idea that everyone is entitled to your services..here in comes the ultimate dependence on insurance and public welfare. This is also why primary care physicians rarely own their own practices..They can't compete with the likes of Hermann and Methodist. It also explains why the income for most primary care physicians ( which is where most medical students end up ) hovers around 200k or maybe a tad more.
It's important to take a broad look at both paths as these nuances are what will.influence your day to day experience and practice.

In your view, what would this do to primary care physicians' income?

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[allantois]

In your view, what would this do to primary care physicians' income? View attachment 216098


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Hasn't done anything so far: despite there already being 200k+ NPs and 100k+ PAs, salaries for PCPs have been rising every year.

 

[DentistScientist]

Hasn't done anything so far: despite there already being 200k+ NPs and 100k+ PAs, salaries for PCPs have been rising every year.

Thank you for letting me know. This tells me that I have to give up money so that i can do what i like. Doing lots of translational research in oral biology field that is.


What you guys think about going to DO schools and be a pcp? DO schools are more expensive than state MD schools and are as expensive as state dental schools. Getting into DO schools is easier than dental schools because they have much lower gpa. And scoring mid or high 20s on old mcat is not difficult.

Most graduates in DO schools will not get into university residencies and most will end up in community programs doing primary care. (Yes there is always one or two exceptions but most are in community residencies)

PCPs make more than dentists while they have to work more hours than dentists?

In my view, unless PCPs lobby to protect their jobs, they will be soon challenged by AIs like IBM Watson.. they have been giving away their jobs to nurses and PAs who can provide the same services with less reimbursements..




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[rivarat]

I'm not sure who u are not is it any of my business. On the other hand, I have been a dentist for over 30 years, am faculty at two D schools and one medical school, am a residency director and train new grads, and a board test question constructor. I have a broad and long term view of this profession, it's called perspective. The financial advisor does not, and has still not answered any of my questions.

I appreciate your perspective and apologize for my brashness.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

I know this. I was trying to illustrate that a program can't be more common for one group over another when the total count is zero.

@schmoob but the count will very soon not be zero, and the count will represent vastly more physicians than dentists, even though physicians have much less debt that dentists on average.

Some graduate school programs are actively selling PSLF as the solution to the student debt loads their graduates will carry after graduation. Yes the probability of PSLF not happening for highly indebted residents is nonzero, but it's also more likely than not.

Are you suggesting that PSLF is not going to happen for individuals currently in their 3rd or 4th year of residency? I'm not sure what you're getting at

 

[StudentDentistsRock]

People here make very good points, but also very bad ones.

Honestly, just as others have mentioned, it is really about playing it smart. Many, many times I heard dentists, family members, and mentors tell me that most dental education is the same. I always told them how much I wanted to go to Penn, but I came to realize that the debt is not worth it. After shadowing at both schools, I felt that Temple offers just as good of an education and clinical experience for a much more manageable price.

I feel that many people complaining about the high debt in this thread are the people who chose to go to high title schools for the doctoral prestige. If so, I get the feeling that you are in it for the flashy life, not the drilling life.

I have been discussing with my chemistry PI over and over again: Do I go after a phd in chemistry or get a dmd? I have a first author paper that is to be submitted by the end of the month, a paper which my PI told me could get me into any grad school I wanted and that the most difficult part would be to choose. However, do I want to ditch dental just so I can tell people I went to $$$$ school? Not really. If I wanted to weigh the differences in career paths, I'd look at how flexible my life would be in both professions, where I think I would be happier and more successful and more financially comfortable of course. Getting paid to get a phd over immersing yourself in debt does sound quite lovely honestly. But, as my PI told me: "If that's your only concern. I can tell you that dentists make enough money to pay off their debt."

Idk. If it sounds like I know what I am talking about, I am really ranting because I have been having mixed feelings lately about applying to dental school and it scares me. Looking for wisdom

 

[torque]

Let's get the thread back on topic. @setdoc7 please repost any questions I don't answer here. I'd love to discuss some of the things I'm seeing now vs the extensive experience you've had in dental education (being serious here and with respect, not sarcastic)

Even if you're a pediatrician, you likely have access to the PSLF program meaning what you pay on your loans is capped at the payments on REPAYE or PAYE over 10 years. That is about 20% to 50% of the amount you actually borrow. Same goes for neurosurgeons. Because of the structure of physician training, most only have to work at a not for profit hospital for 4-6 years as an attending and the remaining loan balance is wiped away.

Dentists do not have this same student loan benefit, and it means that the cost of dental school for a typical dentist vs cost of medical school for a typical doctor is about 2 to 4 times as high. So under the current student loan regime, it almost doesn't matter what specialty you choose. Almost all of them are better financial decisions that dentistry bc of this change in the student loan rules.

I'm not defending the financial soundness of becoming a psychologist. I've seen a lot of those with really high debt to income ratios.

Yes I'm contributing some to her student loans so we can be debt free sooner. Her debt to income ratio is about 0.4 and we expect to be debt free within the year. She's also making about double what an associate dentist would earn in an academic setting where she gets lots of benefits a private practice owner wouldn't get

Dentists DO have the same student loan benefit if they choose to do so. Most, if not all, dental schools qualify as PSLF and a lot of the community health clinics now incorporate the dental clinics, which will qualify as PSLF. I think you should have researched a little more about dentistry before coming over if you intended to provide "professional" opinions.

 

[super frank]

People here make very good points, but also very bad ones.

Honestly, just as others have mentioned, it is really about playing it smart. Many, many times I heard dentists, family members, and mentors tell me that most dental education is the same. I always told them how much I wanted to go to Penn, but I came to realize that the debt is not worth it. After shadowing at both schools, I felt that Temple offers just as good of an education and clinical experience for a much more manageable price.

I feel that many people complaining about the high debt in this thread are the people who chose to go to high title schools for the doctoral prestige. If so, I get the feeling that you are in it for the flashy life, not the drilling life.

I have been discussing with my chemistry PI over and over again: Do I go after a phd in chemistry or get a dmd? I have a first author paper that is to be submitted by the end of the month, a paper which my PI told me could get me into any grad school I wanted and that the most difficult part would be to choose. However, do I want to ditch dental just so I can tell people I went to $$$$ school? Not really. If I wanted to weigh the differences in career paths, I'd look at how flexible my life would be in both professions, where I think I would be happier and more successful and more financially comfortable of course. Getting paid to get a phd over immersing yourself in debt does sound quite lovely honestly. But, as my PI told me: "If that's your only concern. I can tell you that dentists make enough money to pay off their debt."

Idk. If it sounds like I know what I am talking about, I am really ranting because I have been having mixed feelings lately about applying to dental school and it scares me. Looking for wisdom

Depends on what your end game is. Do you want to be a GP? Specialize? Research? Academia?

 

[Johnwickk]

OP has laid out some true facts. Need an honest opinion. Im a Canadian attending an SMP in the states wanting to get into tufts. 81k USD will be my tuition. That is 110k CAD for 1 year. X 4 = 440k CAD in tuition excluding interest and living lol. This post has got me thinking. Its my first semester in the smp program and i have not paid my tuition. Will you guys recommend me going back to Canada and spend 2 years trying to get into a Canadian school with only 30k tuition per year or suck it up and dwell in debt here in the states?

 

[DentistScientist]

People here make very good points, but also very bad ones.

Honestly, just as others have mentioned, it is really about playing it smart. Many, many times I heard dentists, family members, and mentors tell me that most dental education is the same. I always told them how much I wanted to go to Penn, but I came to realize that the debt is not worth it. After shadowing at both schools, I felt that Temple offers just as good of an education and clinical experience for a much more manageable price.

I feel that many people complaining about the high debt in this thread are the people who chose to go to high title schools for the doctoral prestige. If so, I get the feeling that you are in it for the flashy life, not the drilling life.

I have been discussing with my chemistry PI over and over again: Do I go after a phd in chemistry or get a dmd? I have a first author paper that is to be submitted by the end of the month, a paper which my PI told me could get me into any grad school I wanted and that the most difficult part would be to choose. However, do I want to ditch dental just so I can tell people I went to $$$$ school? Not really. If I wanted to weigh the differences in career paths, I'd look at how flexible my life would be in both professions, where I think I would be happier and more successful and more financially comfortable of course. Getting paid to get a phd over immersing yourself in debt does sound quite lovely honestly. But, as my PI told me: "If that's your only concern. I can tell you that dentists make enough money to pay off their debt."

Idk. If it sounds like I know what I am talking about, I am really ranting because I have been having mixed feelings lately about applying to dental school and it scares me. Looking for wisdom

You should do DSTP(DDS/DMD Ph.D) program like me. With your research experience, you have a decent shot at dds/phd programs in $$$$ dental schools and receive a full-ride scholarship.

In addition to research work that results in 1st author paper, you need higher numbers than the average of accepted applicants in $$$$ schools.

I would say 25 DAT, 3.8+GPA, 1st author publication, and strong letters from your mentors would get you into one of top 5 dds phd programs. With that dedication and talent, getting these numbers would not be too difficult for you.

Once you finish, you can go into prestigious dental research institutes like NIH NIDCR and Forsyth. You would be a very attractive candidate to many places. You can not only do bench work but also do translational and clinical research and truly bring the innovations to our field.

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[Dr5paceman]

@EighteenstreetloungePUA the purpose of spending resources and training on dds/phd students is to advance the field of dentistry not to produce general dentists or really anyone who wants to spend most of their time in the clinic. no one should pursue a dds/phd just for the free tuition.

 

[setdoc7]

Let's get the thread back on topic. @setdoc7 please repost any questions I don't answer here. I'd love to discuss some of the things I'm seeing now vs the extensive experience you've had in dental education (being serious here and with respect, not sarcastic)

Even if you're a pediatrician, you likely have access to the PSLF program meaning what you pay on your loans is capped at the payments on REPAYE or PAYE over 10 years. That is about 20% to 50% of the amount you actually borrow. Same goes for neurosurgeons. Because of the structure of physician training, most only have to work at a not for profit hospital for 4-6 years as an attending and the remaining loan balance is wiped away.

Dentists do not have this same student loan benefit, and it means that the cost of dental school for a typical dentist vs cost of medical school for a typical doctor is about 2 to 4 times as high. So under the current student loan regime, it almost doesn't matter what specialty you choose. Almost all of them are better financial decisions that dentistry bc of this change in the student loan rules.

I'm not defending the financial soundness of becoming a psychologist. I've seen a lot of those with really high debt to income ratios.

Yes I'm contributing some to her student loans so we can be debt free sooner. Her debt to income ratio is about 0.4 and we expect to be debt free within the year. She's also making about double what an associate dentist would earn in an academic setting where she gets lots of benefits a private practice owner wouldn't get

I assume you are unaware that dentists can also work in a not for profit (hospital or FQHC) in a federally designated dental shortage area and have their loans forgiven. These areas are not all rural, in fact my hospital which is in the 5 boros of NYC qualifies.
Each time you mention average associate salary I cringe, as this average is biased and not accurate. I agree there are instances where a dental education may not pay, especially if one has borrowed for 4 years of college, 2 years of post bac/masters, and then 4 years of D School (except Pacific). If one falls into that category, you reap what u sow.
But for most high achievers who go on to D school, it is nowhere near this bad.
Further, even new grads make much more after a few years out and a few more procedures from CE under their belt. It is not all doom and gloom.

 

[DentistScientist]

@EighteenstreetloungePUA the purpose of spending resources and training on dds/phd students is to advance the field of dentistry not to produce general dentists or really anyone who wants to spend most of their time in the clinic. no one should pursue a dds/phd just for the free tuition.

You are absolutely right.
No worries. I am not going into general dentistry or private practice in any fields.

I want NIH or Forsyth or pursue a specialty that allow me to do lots of translational and clinical research work.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

I assume you are unaware that dentists can also work in a not for profit (hospital or FQHC) in a federally designated dental shortage area and have their loans forgiven. These areas are not all rural, in fact my hospital which is in the 5 boros of NYC qualifies.
Each time you mention average associate salary I cringe, as this average is biased and not accurate. I agree there are instances where a dental education may not pay, especially if one has borrowed for 4 years of college, 2 years of post bac/masters, and then 4 years of D School (except Pacific). If one falls into that category, you reap what u sow.
But for most high achievers who go on to D school, it is nowhere near this bad.
Further, even new grads make much more after a few years out and a few more procedures from CE under their belt. It is not all doom and gloom.

I'm aware. I've had several dentist clients who've been on track to receive Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF). Some have been working in hospital based settings, some in community health clinics, and other employers. Not for profit employment in dentistry is uncommon compared to physician employment. That's the point I'm making. Also the quality of life as a not for profit employed physician seems to be more pleasant on average compared to the not for profit dentist, particularly when it comes to pay. I recognize this doesn't apply in every case.

Additionally, some of the clients who have been tracking towards PSLF that I've spoken with in dentistry have told me they are seriously considering abandoning that employment because they find it unpleasant. I can't speak to why this is as I'm not a clinician, but the ones who have been working at not for profit facilities, have significant loans that would be eligible for PSLF, and like the work in my limited client sample size are few and far between.

@setdoc7 what's the problem with the mean and why does it make you cringe? Of course the mean is sensitive to large and small values. However, if there are many cases of high achieving dentists out there making well over $180,000, wouldn't that bias this mean upwards? If it's dependent upon survey results wouldn't high earning dentists want to make sure their salaries were well represented as it would verify their career choice? What's the statistical issue with using the mean here that would make dentistry look less appealing than it actually is?

The distribution of dental salaries might be approximately normal with a strongly right skewed distribution. There would probably be a fat tail on the left as well. I won't argue that the top 10% of new dentists can't do well for themselves, or even very well. That said, the most successful dentists of today are disproportionately older and received their degrees when dental school might have cost $5,000 per year in tuition. To me, it seems like a strong gamble to assume one is going to be top 10% when you can't easily get out of the profession if it turns out that you're not.

 

[510586]

I'm aware. I've had several dentist clients who've been on track to receive Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF). Some have been working in hospital based settings, some in community health clinics, and other employers. Not for profit employment in dentistry is uncommon compared to physician employment. That's the point I'm making. Also the quality of life as a not for profit employed physician seems to be more pleasant on average compared to the not for profit dentist, particularly when it comes to pay. I recognize this doesn't apply in every case.

Additionally, some of the clients who have been tracking towards PSLF that I've spoken with in dentistry have told me they are seriously considering abandoning that employment because they find it unpleasant. I can't speak to why this is as I'm not a clinician, but the ones who have been working at not for profit facilities, have significant loans that would be eligible for PSLF, and like the work in my limited client sample size are few and far between.

@setdoc7 what's the problem with the mean and why does it make you cringe? Of course the mean is sensitive to large and small values. However, if there are many cases of high achieving dentists out there making well over $180,000, wouldn't that bias this mean upwards? If it's dependent upon survey results wouldn't high earning dentists want to make sure their salaries were well represented as it would verify their career choice? What's the statistical issue with using the mean here that would make dentistry look less appealing than it actually is?

The distribution of dental salaries might be approximately normal with a strongly right skewed distribution. There would probably be a fat tail on the left as well. I won't argue that the top 10% of new dentists can't do well for themselves, or even very well. That said, the most successful dentists of today are disproportionately older and received their degrees when dental school might have cost $5,000 per year in tuition. To me, it seems like a strong gamble to assume one is going to be top 10% when you can't easily get out of the profession if it turns out that you're not.

Not a dentist, just playing devil's advocate. Wouldn't you want a lowered reported mean (even if you make a lot) to keep dentistry under the radar from the general public and government? If we say that dentists make a lot more, wouldn't that put dentists at a higher risk of policy changes by government as well as public outlash? Also, the people making less are more likely to participate in these reports to show how dentistry isn't as rosy as it seems from what I've seen. There are more dentists posting on sdn predent about the sorry state of dentistry, high loans, and keeping expectations low than there are people saying "look how successful I am" and trying to verify their career choice.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Not a dentist, just playing devil's advocate. Wouldn't you want a lowered reported mean (even if you make a lot) to keep dentistry under the radar from the general public and government? If we say that dentists make a lot more, wouldn't that put dentists at a higher risk of policy changes by government as well as public outlash? Also, the people making less are more likely to participate in these reports to show how dentistry isn't as rosy as it seems from what I've seen. There are more dentists posting on sdn predent about the sorry state of dentistry, high loans, and keeping expectations low than there are people saying "look how successful I am" and trying to verify their career choice.

I agree that would be desirable and smart but that assumes a level of coordination that I don't think is possible in any survey. We are supposed to believe in the general truth of bureau of labor statistics numbers, and they put the median salary of all generalists at all experience levels at $152,000 as of may 2015

 

[StudentDentistsRock]

You should do DSTP(DDS/DMD Ph.D) program like me. With your research experience, you have a decent shot at dds/phd programs in $$$$ dental schools and receive a full-ride scholarship.

In addition to research work that results in 1st author paper, you need higher numbers than the average of accepted applicants in $$$$ schools.

I would say 25 DAT, 3.8+GPA, 1st author publication, and strong letters from your mentors would get you into one of top 5 dds phd programs. With that dedication and talent, getting these numbers would not be too difficult for you.

Once you finish, you can go into prestigious dental research institutes like NIH NIDCR and Forsyth. You would be a very attractive candidate to many places. You can not only do bench work but also do translational and clinical research and truly bring the innovations to our field.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

PM'd.

 

[510586]

I agree that would be desirable and smart but that assumes a level of coordination that I don't think is possible in any survey. We are supposed to believe in the general truth of bureau of labor statistics numbers, and they put the median salary of all generalists at all experience levels at $152,000 as of may 2015

Hard to tell if people are reporting accurately or inflating/deflating the numbers I guess.

But in the med vs dental comparison, in terms of raw numbers salary wise, med wins if Primary care vs general dent, but the lifestyle is what usually makes someone choose dental over med anyway. Also, they still have the 3 years of residency while general dent go directly into practice usually. Not to mention a general dentist that decides to work as many hours as a doctor would likely make the same or + correct?

In terms of specialists, pedo is close to and OMFS make similar to derm with similar hours (according to the ADA report anyway). And derm residencies are some of the hardest spots to land. The way I see it, medicine is what you go into if you're extremely altruistic or don't mind working many more hours for higher pay. Dentistry is what you enter if you still want a decent salary but with an option of a much better lifestyle (of course being service oriented is important for both fields). Medical has a few specialties that rival dentals lifestyle, while dental has some specialties that rival high paying medical fields. I don't see a field that's more lifestyle based than dentistry with similar pay, even if you're working as an associate/corporate.

For the debt consideration, if the school was actually 2-4 times more expensive it may not be worth it. But with public med schools being 208k and private being 278k on average, I don't see how a dental school can be 3-4 times more expensive (USC is most pricy at around 500k and ivies are like 400k). The dental school I will attend with all costs factored in will not be as expensive as a private medical school, so I don't think the debt will have a huge effect.

 

[pigman5010]

Why are dental schools getting so expensive?

 

[MaizeGoBlue]

Why are dental schools getting so expensive?

There are more applicants than seats every year, so schools can raise the tuition all they want and still fill their classes. With the extra money, schools can build new buildings, raise salaries, hire new professors, etc to make their program more competitive. Part of this ties in to the fact that many students rely on government loans, which they currently don't have a cap on for professional schools. So even if a student is poor as dirt, the government can lend them a bunch of money for school. I'm sure there are other factors at work and this is an oversimplification, but it certainly has something to do with the skyrocketing costs.

 

[jbtck]

Here's my situation. After high school I enlisted into the United States Air Force for "rich parents". I looked at all the other spoiled rich kids having their parents pay their entire kids way through school (food, housing, tuition, etc.) so I figured i needed my own set of rich parents (since my birth parents were not willing to pay for me to live outside of their home and I couldn't stand to spend another day in their house, and I didn't want to get by on some ****ty $8-$9/hr job) to do the same thing. I didn't go to college right away, rather I went through the "school of hard knocks" (as I hated college starting out) and also got a lot of free food and rent along the way. Managed to accumulate over $50,000 in savings and also paid off a new 2012 car. Now I'm attending university debt free to get my BS degree on the Post 9/11 GI Bill. I am also a 30% service connected disabled veteran so the Ch. 31 Voc Rehab program is going to pay for all $200,000+ of my four year dental school, plus books, fees, and equipment while I will be receiving GI Bill E-5 dependent rate BAH to live on for all four years. And I will have 0 student loan debt, all thanks to the taxpayers of the United States/a.k.a my rich parents.

So while everyone else in my graduating dental school class will still be living like a poor college student struggling to pay back their government sponsored loans for many years, I'll get to live the rich dentist lifestyle right away, as my government just gave me a full ride because I already served their mission so now they served me.

Since the Voc Rehab program is not an education benefit to use on whatever I want like the GI Bill and had to be submitted for approval as a means to retrain for an employable career my program goal states “To obtain and maintain employment as a dentist.”

Also, unlike HPSP recipients, I will have 0 obligation to serve my nation afterwards, already did that (only served on active duty for 21 months).

 

[phillydon]

@Student Loan Planner...I haven't read this whole thread but I think it is definitely a good one to discuss.

My fiancé is about 250k in debt from dental school. Her base salary is 120k in her first year out of school and that equates to about 6k a month after taxes. She is putting in 3k towards her loans which would set her on track to pay off her loans in 10ish years. That leaves her with 3k a month to spend on rent, food, leisure. And this is all based on year 1 earning potential. Surely, you don't think her finances are "wrecked".

I am also starting dental school this fall and will incur about 250k in debt. I am not sure if other people have mentioned it but getting married as a dentist (not necessarily to another dentist) will also be a significant boost for finances. If you have a spouse making 70-80k which is around 4k after taxes, you can put that towards loans and then you have 6k a month for other expenses which is plenty to live and save. And these are all assuming you are making 120k as a dentist.

These are just my observations from personal experiences. I can't speak for people with 500k+ in debt.

 

[MaizeGoBlue]

@Student Loan Planner...I haven't read this whole thread but I think it is definitely a good one to discuss.

My fiancé is about 250k in debt from dental school. Her base salary is 120k in her first year out of school and that equates to about 6k a month after taxes. She is putting in 3k towards her loans which would set her on track to pay off her loans in 10ish years. That leaves her with 3k a month to spend on rent, food, leisure. And this is all based on year 1 earning potential. Surely, you don't think her finances are "wrecked".

I am also starting dental school this fall and will incur about 250k in debt. I am not sure if other people have mentioned it but getting married as a dentist (not necessarily to another dentist) will also be a significant boost for finances. If you have a spouse making 70-80k which is around 4k after taxes, you can put that towards loans and then you have 6k a month for other expenses which is plenty to live and save. And these are all assuming you are making 120k as a dentist.

These are just my observations from personal experiences. I can't speak for people with 500k+ in debt.

Earlier in the thread he mentions if you have under 300k of debt upon graduation, you're still in good shape. If you have over 400k is really when the problems start. Also, somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the ability to refinance your loans for a lower interest rate dependent on your debt/income ratio? If so, you would be able to refinance your loans much sooner than somebody who has 400k+ in loans.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Earlier in the thread he mentions if you have under 300k of debt upon graduation, you're still in good shape. If you have over 400k is really when the problems start. Also, somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the ability to refinance your loans for a lower interest rate dependent on your debt/income ratio? If so, you would be able to refinance your loans much sooner than somebody who has 400k+ in loans.

It is. In general a debt to income ratio below 2 for a dentist will get you a decent interest rate. That's the ratio where the REPAYE program starts to lose interest subsidies bc your income is too high. Having a spouse in dental school to prevent your loans from getting in the 300+ territory is really the secret weapon in helping dental school be a decent financial investment along with going to an in state program. Most folks don't have that financial support though.

 

[setdoc7]

Hospital and community health center jobs are generally 9-5 with all holidays off and paid vacation. No one is preventing these employed dentists from working evenings and weekend days privately to earn more. If one thinks it is okay to work only one job, and no holidays or weekends in the beginning, then okay. No complaining.

 

[Ollivander]

Hospital and community health center jobs are generally 9-5 with all holidays off and paid vacation. No one is preventing these employed dentists from working evenings and weekend days privately to earn more. If one thinks it is okay to work only one job, and no holidays or weekends in the beginning, then okay. No complaining.

If you're working most evenings and weekends as a new grad that's a quick way to a burnout in dentistry. Dentistry takes a toll on your back and neck, not to mention the stress level involved with working in such a tightly compacted space. You're advocating doing that for 12 hour days for 6 or so days per week? I just don't see how that's feasible without burning out and beginning to hate what you do in the worst way. Most folks here are not wanting to be slaves to their jobs. They're wanting their careers to be able to provide a certain lifestyle for them to enjoy when they're not at work. Working most nights and weekends in no way accomplishes that and I doubt the overwhelming majority here would want to do that. This just isn't a profession designed for extreme amounts of overtime due to the stress level and physical repercussions associated with it.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

If you're working most evenings and weekends as a new grad that's a quick way to a burnout in dentistry. Dentistry takes a toll on your back and neck, not to mention the stress level involved with working in such a tightly compacted space. You're advocating doing that for 12 hour days for 6 or so days per week? I just don't see how that's feasible without burning out and beginning to hate what you do in the worst way. Most folks here are not wanting to be slaves to their jobs. They're wanting their careers to be able to provide a certain lifestyle for them to enjoy when they're not at work. Working most nights and weekends in no way accomplishes that and I doubt the overwhelming majority here would want to do that. This just isn't a profession designed for extreme amounts of overtime due to the stress level and physical repercussions associated with it.

I will say that a lot of other professions ask people to work crazy hours. On Wall Street you can expect 60 hr work weeks if you're in the markets, and in investment banking you have to do 80-100 hours a week. You've also got to be available by email pretty much all the time.

Consulting you're constantly on the road and "on call." Medicine you have to do residencies that sometimes run 100 hrs a week or more.

So if we're being fair if you want a certain lifestyle for you and your family, you could say "what kind of work do I enjoy?" That's probably the best way to find out what path you want to go down. If you're risk averse and don't like the idea of leverage and owing other people hundreds of thousands, then you should pick a different profession. If it doesn't bother you and you're cool with signing up for another $500,000 and running your own small business, then go right ahead. Just some general thoughts.

 

[Ollivander]

I will say that a lot of other professions ask people to work crazy hours. On Wall Street you can expect 60 hr work weeks if you're in the markets, and in investment banking you have to do 80-100 hours a week. You've also got to be available by email pretty much all the time.

Consulting you're constantly on the road and "on call." Medicine you have to do residencies that sometimes run 100 hrs a week or more.

So if we're being fair if you want a certain lifestyle for you and your family, you could say "what kind of work do I enjoy?" That's probably the best way to find out what path you want to go down. If you're risk averse and don't like the idea of leverage and owing other people hundreds of thousands, then you should pick a different profession. If it doesn't bother you and you're cool with signing up for another $500,000 and running your own small business, then go right ahead. Just some general thoughts.

I agree with the sentiment in your post, except I think dentistry is on a different playing field than a banker, stock broker, consultant, and even lots of doctors (obviously it depends upon specialty) in the aspect of physical strain on your body. Dentistry is really hard on the back, eyes, hands, and neck. I just don't think it's built for the kind of work week listed above. It would probably force most dentists into early retirement.

 

[Likkriue]

Let's get the thread back on topic. @setdoc7 please repost any questions I don't answer here. I'd love to discuss some of the things I'm seeing now vs the extensive experience you've had in dental education (being serious here and with respect, not sarcastic)

Even if you're a pediatrician, you likely have access to the PSLF program meaning what you pay on your loans is capped at the payments on REPAYE or PAYE over 10 years. That is about 20% to 50% of the amount you actually borrow. Same goes for neurosurgeons. Because of the structure of physician training, most only have to work at a not for profit hospital for 4-6 years as an attending and the remaining loan balance is wiped away.

Dentists do not have this same student loan benefit, and it means that the cost of dental school for a typical dentist vs cost of medical school for a typical doctor is about 2 to 4 times as high. So under the current student loan regime, it almost doesn't matter what specialty you choose. Almost all of them are better financial decisions that dentistry bc of this change in the student loan rules.

I'm not defending the financial soundness of becoming a psychologist. I've seen a lot of those with really high debt to income ratios.

Yes I'm contributing some to her student loans so we can be debt free sooner. Her debt to income ratio is about 0.4 and we expect to be debt free within the year. She's also making about double what an associate dentist would earn in an academic setting where she gets lots of benefits a private practice owner wouldn't get

A psychologist making 240k? Do you mean a psychiatrist? Big difference, one is a MD and one would have no job lined up without a PhD.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

@Student Loan Planner...I haven't read this whole thread but I think it is definitely a good one to discuss.

My fiancé is about 250k in debt from dental school. Her base salary is 120k in her first year out of school and that equates to about 6k a month after taxes. She is putting in 3k towards her loans which would set her on track to pay off her loans in 10ish years. That leaves her with 3k a month to spend on rent, food, leisure. And this is all based on year 1 earning potential. Surely, you don't think her finances are "wrecked".

I am also starting dental school this fall and will incur about 250k in debt. I am not sure if other people have mentioned it but getting married as a dentist (not necessarily to another dentist) will also be a significant boost for finances. If you have a spouse making 70-80k which is around 4k after taxes, you can put that towards loans and then you have 6k a month for other expenses which is plenty to live and save. And these are all assuming you are making 120k as a dentist.

These are just my observations from personal experiences. I can't speak for people with 500k+ in debt.

Even with values over 300k in debt, which is a lot don't get me wrong, your finances are absolutely not wrecked. It is an investment in your future. You can't just assume someone is going to make x amount of money out of school statically or have a 5% increase in income due to tenure at an associateship. Likewise, one can go down in income whether it is not meeting quote at a office or poorly managed private practice. The debt is something to be uncomfortable about, but it shouldn't deter you from a solid field. Income in this field can go up or down but you have a large ceiling with your income. Example- there are GP dentists working in my medium saturated areas who make over 400k a year (in a bad year). There are good and bad cards in your hand but it is up to you to pick what you want to do with them. Tuition price is absolutely a problem and I agree it is wrecking people's lives. It isn't easy to run a business and I know I will fall straight and hard on my ass multiple times throughout my career. But with my determination and motivation, I know that no matter the cost (within reason), it won't "wreck" mine

 

[Student Loan Planner]

A psychologist making 240k? Do you mean a psychiatrist? Big difference, one is a MD and one would have no job lined up without a PhD.

I might have misstated above but I mean 240k in debt for a psychologist w a PhD w a 65k a year job. That's pretty typical in my experience. Psychiatrists are better off but not by as much as you'd expect

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Even with values over 300k in debt, which is a lot don't get me wrong, your finances are absolutely not wrecked. It is an investment in your future. You can't just assume someone is going to make x amount of money out of school statically or have a 5% increase in income due to tenure at an associateship. Likewise, one can go down in income whether it is not meeting quote at a office or poorly managed private practice. The debt is something to be uncomfortable about, but it shouldn't deter you from a solid field. Income in this field can go up or down but you have a large ceiling with your income. Example- there are GP dentists working in my medium saturated areas who make over 400k a year (in a bad year). There are good and bad cards in your hand but it is up to you to pick what you want to do with them. Tuition price is absolutely a problem and I agree it is wrecking people's lives. It isn't easy to run a business and I know I will fall straight and hard on my ass multiple times throughout my career. But with my determination and motivation, I know that no matter the cost (within reason), it won't "wreck" mine

That's the right attitude to have. I think dentistry really depends on if you're cool running a small business and you like that. There are other fields in my opinion that are much better for folks just looking to punch a time card and have a nice low stress lifestyle w a stable income.

One question though, how do you feel about declining dental incomes ? They've decreased a lot since 2008 and PPOs continue to push down compensation. There's a higher ceiling than other professions but it seems like there's a lot of pressure dropping that ceiling

 

[Alpha Centauri]

That's the right attitude to have. I think dentistry really depends on if you're cool running a small business and you like that. There are other fields in my opinion that are much better for folks just looking to punch a time card and have a nice low stress lifestyle w a stable income.

One question though, how do you feel about declining dental incomes ? They've decreased a lot since 2008 and PPOs continue to push down compensation. There's a higher ceiling than other professions but it seems like there's a lot of pressure dropping that ceiling

I'm not really worried. I've been working as a self employed automotive electrical mechanic for the past 7 years. One small mistake and I can turn a 120,000$ BMW into a cute paperweight. I was one of the first people in North America to offer my type of service and as a result, I have a "name" out there across the surrounding 4 area codes. I never advertise, I pride myself on word of mouth and of course my own ability to do quick and quality work. I've probably worked on upwards of 1.2 million dollars worth of cars taking into account all the clients I've had. Some could be 15,000$ beaters, others could easily have upgrades that surpass the entire MSRP of the car itself. My favorite BMW I worked on was one that took home the 1/4 mile world record for the BMW's N54 engine.

With that being said, I plan on applying the same principles to my dental practice. I could be overpriced like some shops in the surrounding area (what inspired me to actually start my own version of their business), and I could be rude like someone who does similar work down in Miami (although he does this for a living while I do it for fun and pocket money). I've had people tow their cars on flatbed trucks 3 hours to see me just because of their faith in my abilities. All of them were able to drive home and avoid a 5,000$ bill from BMW for work that takes minutes.

Take a drive around town and look for signs that say "Dentist", "Orthodontist", "Family Dental" etc. All these generic dental offices can be seen everywhere. Saturation right? I think saturation is a joke. I would be worried if I thought of myself as "average", because most "average" dentists are opening up generic dental practices. The funny thing is that most people never consider themselves as average. I've never had an actual office for my business. Hell I have never even received a formal paycheck, nor do I ever plan to in my life, unless its for a year or two while as an associate. However, I already know what it takes to succeed in the healthcare industry, and I look forward to the future.

I plan on going all out in my career, whether it takes 500k to own some rinky dinky starting practice, moving up to a multi million dollar facility that I personally have witnessed, for example, family members or friend's parents build medical practices with a few thousand dollars in their pockets when beginning. Some may say I sound like a braggadocios dingus when I talk about my work, and I can understand why. However, don't confuse me being prideful in my skills with bragging about my "success" in a niche.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

I'm not really worried. I've been working as a self employed automotive electrical mechanic for the past 7 years. One small mistake and I can turn a 120,000$ BMW into a cute paperweight. I was one of the first people in North America to offer my type of service and as a result, I have a "name" out there across the surrounding 4 area codes. I never advertise, I pride myself on word of mouth and of course my own ability to do quick and quality work. I've probably worked on upwards of 1.2 million dollars worth of cars taking into account all the clients I've had. Some could be 15,000$ beaters, others could easily have upgrades that surpass the entire MSRP of the car itself. My favorite BMW I worked on was one that took home the 1/4 mile world record for the BMW's N54 engine.

With that being said, I plan on applying the same principles to my dental practice. I could be overpriced like some shops in the surrounding area (what inspired me to actually start my own version of their business), and I could be rude like someone who does similar work down in Miami (although he does this for a living while I do it for fun and pocket money). I've had people tow their cars on flatbed trucks 3 hours to see me just because of their faith in my abilities. All of them were able to drive home and avoid a 5,000$ bill from BMW for work that takes minutes.

Take a drive around town and look for signs that say "Dentist", "Orthodontist", "Family Dental" etc. All these generic dental offices can be seen everywhere. Saturation right? I think saturation is a joke. I would be worried if I thought of myself as "average", because most "average" dentists are opening up generic dental practices. The funny thing is that most people never consider themselves as average. I've never had an actual office for my business. Hell I have never even received a formal paycheck, nor do I ever plan to in my life, unless its for a year or two while as an associate. However, I already know what it takes to succeed in the healthcare industry, and I look forward to the future.

I plan on going all out in my career, whether it takes 500k to own some rinky dinky starting practice, moving up to a multi million dollar facility that I personally have witnessed, for example, family members or friend's parents build medical practices with a few thousand dollars in their pockets when beginning. Some may say I sound like a braggadocios dingus when I talk about my work, and I can understand why. However, don't confuse me being prideful in my skills with bragging about my "success" in a niche.

So are you going to be a fee for service practice and not accept PPO's? I commend the work ethic and goal setting but what's your plan on dealing with the industry wide trend that's reducing everybody's net income in dentistry? You can only make money if your patients are able to pay you. If you're going to set up a cosmetic dentistry practice and accept no insurance somewhere in ultrarich ski town with a bunch of wealthy 40-70 somethings then I'd say that's a great plan. Setting up a mostly Medicaid practice in Florida and accepting every PPO in town would probably make you work like crazy.

Maybe a better question is how are your family friends able to make 400k with the current pressures existing in the insurance market with declining reimbursements?

 

[Student Loan Planner]

For those interested, I've put together another thread with a more reasonable title on what the distribution of dental school costs will likely be for the class of 2021 if you're financing your own education. I estimate over 80% of dentists without financial support during school will owe over $300,000

 

[Johnwickk]

For those interested, I've put together another thread with a more reasonable title on what the distribution of dental school costs will likely be for the class of 2021 if you're financing your own education. I estimate over 80% of dentists without financial support during school will owe over $300,000

For international students would you recommend this route? Because I can only apply to private schools which will leave me in 400-600k in debt

 

[Student Loan Planner]

For international students would you recommend this route? Because I can only apply to private schools which will leave me in 400-600k in debt

If you're in a place with really low incomes and limited prospects then yes. If you're in Canada or the EU somewhere and want to come over to make a bunch of money in the US, I wouldn't suggest it. Just my 2 cents others feel free to chime in