Ghosting during the job hunt

[dieABRdie]

Its really bad when its some podunk mountain town.

I mean.... my step one score was higher than their population.

How dare they!

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[Irradi8or]

It’s crazy how this is what’s become of recruiting in Rad Onc. In another life, I was a comp sci/software person and just about all of my friends in tech are getting multiple offers and being the ones ghosting jobs. Heck, some people are accepting two jobs for remote work and not telling the other employer about it. Most of them make at least as much as most rad oncs do now, and then a lot more at senior levels.

 

[ROforbetterorworse]

It depends how you define job solicitation really. If you include mailed glossy postcards touting an opportunity “in a great college town” and that you can “enjoy four seasons in the Ozarks” and that a position affords “plenty of opportunities for hunting, camping, fishing and hiking” then I get several solicitations a year.

If you also toss in the weekly emails from headhunting/locums companies touting new opportunities in Nebraska and West Virginia then I get a few dozen solicitations per year.

Same. The day rural Minnesota stops emailing me is the day the field is irrevocably finished

 

[qxrt]

Ghosting doesn't bother me because hey, if they really wanted me, they would let me know pretty quickly. And I want to go somewhere that wants me, not somewhere that's lukewarm on me.

The job offers I've received, they told me within the week (my current job, which really wanted me, told me on the same day after my interview). If I don't hear from them within a couple weeks or whatever timeframe they give me, then I move on and forget them.

 

[Neuronix]

And I want to go somewhere that wants me, not somewhere that's lukewarm on me.

The job offers I've received, they told me within the week (my current job, which really wanted me, told me on the same day after my interview). If I don't hear from them within a couple weeks or whatever timeframe they give me, then I move on and forget them.

This is not how it works in rad onc. You are lucky to get a job offer or two after significant begging. You're relating a radiology experience that does not apply.

 

[dieABRdie]

Ghosting doesn't bother me because hey, if they really wanted me, they would let me know pretty quickly. And I want to go somewhere that wants me, not somewhere that's lukewarm on me.

The job offers I've received, they told me within the week (my current job, which really wanted me, told me on the same day after my interview). If I don't hear from them within a couple weeks or whatever timeframe they give me, then I move on and forget them.

Key word above for rad onc is "somewhere"

 

[RTOGsaveRadonc]

Lmao. As a hospitalist friends get to pick any location they want, make 250K at least, while 2 weeks on 2 off. More if they add in some PRN shifts.


Has their ever been a speciality that has turn to such ****? The most technically demanding with the most board exams

 

[fiji128]

Ghosting doesn't bother me because hey, if they really wanted me, they would let me know pretty quickly. And I want to go somewhere that wants me, not somewhere that's lukewarm on me.

The job offers I've received, they told me within the week (my current job, which really wanted me, told me on the same day after my interview). If I don't hear from them within a couple weeks or whatever timeframe they give me, then I move on and forget them.

In rad onc we are mostly in “a job” or “any job” territory. Like a real estate agent in Las Vegas circa 2009.

 

[medgator]

Lmao. As a hospitalist friends get to pick any location they want, make 250K at least, while 2 weeks on 2 off. More if they add in some PRN shifts.


Has their ever been a speciality that has turn to such ****? The most technically demanding with the most board exams

Urology and ent are writing their ticket in many places. Rads market has improved significantly in the last several years

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Lmao. As a hospitalist friends get to pick any location they want, make 250K at least, while 2 weeks on 2 off. More if they add in some PRN shifts.


Has their ever been a speciality that has turn to such ****? The most technically demanding with the most board exams

I have seen some of the early offers new grads have dug out of the barrel this year, and a couple of them had starting salaries ~$270k.

I remember the days, long long ago (*cough* 10 years *cough*) when RadOnc and Hospitalist salaries were not within a margin of error of each other. Now, the starting salary for RadOnc has remained virtually unchanged in that time, which, when considering inflation, is not a favorable prognostic marker!

Someone should publish a Job Market Nomogram, maybe then the leadership could get on the same page with us.

 

[TheWallnerus]

I have seen some of the early offers new grads have dug out of the barrel this year, and a couple of them had starting salaries ~$270k.

I remember the days, long long ago (*cough* 10 years *cough*) when RadOnc and Hospitalist salaries were not within a margin of error of each other. Now, the starting salary for RadOnc has remained virtually unchanged in that time, which, when considering inflation, is not a favorable prognostic marker!

Someone should publish a Job Market Nomogram, maybe then the leadership could get on the same page with us.

We must keep in mind that over the last ten years programs have been producing more and more grads who hypofractionate more and more; this is supported by hard data that the average fractions per patient have declined about 30% the last ten years. That first sentence can be translated to read “we have been producing grads who collect less and less money.” Economically, we really couldn’t have expected rising salaries. It’s fortuitous they’ve been stable. The cost of radiation has been declining faster than COLA could have been rising. Once the race to the (fractionation) bottom is over salaries can/might rise again. The race is not over.

 

[Baws]

Large midwest "pretigious" academic program here: two changes happening at our site:

We posted for 2 jobs, we had over 70 applications for them. We therefore changed one of these jobs to an "instructor" where the pay is 125K with no gurantee of increase; when I mentioned my concern in the staff meeting, I was told this was a generous salary for an instructor. (Maybe others can comment on this "clinical instructor" situation, its a first for me)

Our starting salary for the main facility used to be 300K; our chair has decided to decrease this to 275K this year due to 70+ applications (no word yet on the pay cut to the satellites, I signed on for 280K starting so I'd imagine it will be 250K now)

 

[fiji128]

Honestly who is taking a full time "instructor" job for $125K? The dosimetrists, head therapist and office mangers are probably pulling in more then that.

 

[Neuronix]

Honestly who is taking a full time "instructor" job for $125K? The dosimetrists, head therapist and office mangers are probably pulling in more then that.

Perfect for FMG with visa issues. Have also seen these positions created for alternative pathway folks until they become board certified.

 

[communitydoc13]

(Maybe others can comment on this "clinical instructor" situation, its a first for me)

Just sad. I started to see this sort of BS around the time I was finishing residency. I don't believe these jobs existed to any meaningful degree in the 2000s. Just for context, programs that I was familiar with in the 2000s hired their own residents for a year or two as real faculty even when they knew that they might be moving on (waiting for job where family was or waiting out spouses training).

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Large midwest "pretigious" academic program here: two changes happening at our site:

We posted for 2 jobs, we had over 70 applications for them. We therefore changed one of these jobs to an "instructor" where the pay is 125K with no gurantee of increase; when I mentioned my concern in the staff meeting, I was told this was a generous salary for an instructor. (Maybe others can comment on this "clinical instructor" situation, its a first for me)

Our starting salary for the main facility used to be 300K; our chair has decided to decrease this to 275K this year due to 70+ applications (no word yet on the pay cut to the satellites, I signed on for 280K starting so I'd imagine it will be 250K now)

Ah, this is simultaneously unfortunate to hear but also completely unsurprising and expected.

Ralph gets what he wanted I guess, and then some. Radiation Oncologists will be paid less than Pediatricians.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Large midwest "pretigious" academic program here: two changes happening at our site:

We posted for 2 jobs, we had over 70 applications for them. We therefore changed one of these jobs to an "instructor" where the pay is 125K with no gurantee of increase; when I mentioned my concern in the staff meeting, I was told this was a generous salary for an instructor. (Maybe others can comment on this "clinical instructor" situation, its a first for me)

Our starting salary for the main facility used to be 300K; our chair has decided to decrease this to 275K this year due to 70+ applications (no word yet on the pay cut to the satellites, I signed on for 280K starting so I'd imagine it will be 250K now)

Every dosimetrist I know and many RTTs make more than 125k. I know one RTT in a HCOL area who makes twice that.

FWIW, during interviews I've heard unsubstantiated rumors of a "very prestigious" Texas academic program offering sub-100k for entry level positions.

 

[TheWallnerus]

No matter if everyone from here 'til the end of time gets a job for $125K/yr in rad onc, I don't think the median MGMA rad onc salary will ever change from ~$450K.

 

[hal9k]

Ah, this is simultaneously unfortunate to hear but also completely unsurprising and expected.

Ralph gets what he wanted I guess, and then some. Radiation Oncologists will be paid less than Pediatricians.

yeah but not with their geographic flexibility which is even worse

 

[RickyScott]

I know of 2 radonc who became board certified this way without a us residency. One sucks clinically (but is a very nice person)

 

[OTN]

Large midwest "pretigious" academic program here: two changes happening at our site:

We posted for 2 jobs, we had over 70 applications for them. We therefore changed one of these jobs to an "instructor" where the pay is 125K with no gurantee of increase; when I mentioned my concern in the staff meeting, I was told this was a generous salary for an instructor. (Maybe others can comment on this "clinical instructor" situation, its a first for me)

Our starting salary for the main facility used to be 300K; our chair has decided to decrease this to 275K this year due to 70+ applications (no word yet on the pay cut to the satellites, I signed on for 280K starting so I'd imagine it will be 250K now)

Dr. Dennis Hallahan would be most pleased- his plan is working!

 

[Baws]

Our chair got a salary increase of $150K, so yes … that plan seems to be working

Also if someone can verify if very prestigious west and east coast programs have instructors for a 5 years at 100K salary, it’d be helpful (our chair says this is true)

And yes: all of our dosimeterists make more than our proposed instructor salary

And no: we will likely hire a US MD for this (I’ve gone through our applications and am part of the interview process)

 

[Neuronix]

Also if someone can verify if very prestigious west and east coast programs have instructors for a 5 years at 100K salary, it’d be helpful (our chair says this is true)

Closest I'm aware of is physician-scientist pathway positions paying in the 100s at big name places with one day a week of clinic and startup resources for lab. Only other similar thing I've seen is FMG on alternative pathway.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Our chair got a salary increase of $150K, so yes … that plan seems to be working

Also if someone can verify if very prestigious west and east coast programs have instructors for a 5 years at 100K salary, it’d be helpful (our chair says this is true)

And yes: all of our dosimeterists make more than our proposed instructor salary

And no: we will likely hire a US MD for this (I’ve gone through our applications and am part of the interview process)

I don't know who the hell would stay in an instructor position for 5 years at that level of salary, but it sure as hell ain't me.

I have seen folks usually do it as a 1-year stop gap before being "promoted" (lol) to assistant professor, maybe 2 years...

 

[RickyScott]

I don't know who the hell would stay in an instructor position for 5 years at that level of salary, but it sure as hell ain't me.

I have seen folks usually do it as a 1-year stop gap before being "promoted" (lol) to assistant professor, maybe 2 years...

Financially, it would destroy anyone with loans. Ist job at 40? Sounds like Dennis and Ralphs wet dream?

 

[communitydoc13]

I have seen folks usually do it as a 1-year stop gap before being "promoted" (lol) to assistant professor, maybe 2 years...

It's a cluster. With few exceptions, fellowships and instructorships should not exist and they definitely should not be advertised. At worst, they should be discrete and tied to a promise of an ensuing real job. In the past, some nice programs would set up their grads for a fellow-ship (or similar away time during residency) before hiring them the ensuing year.

By the time you are in this spot (taking a fellowship or instructorship without an understanding of future employment), I don't think things look good. I've personally known smart, academically committed docs who went the fellowship route, then adjunct clinical faculty etc. without ever getting traction in their careers despite being productive and clinically astute. If you don't have the support coming out of residency to get a true faculty job (your chair is probably the biggest determinate of this), my understanding is its a long, hard and uphill battle. Once you demonstrate a willingness to work for less to stay in academics, you are going to be treated like a second class citizen.

 

[OTN]

Financially, it would destroy anyone with loans. Ist job at 40? Sounds like Dennis and Ralphs wet dream?

...which is PRECISELY why it is morally bankrupt to try to entice URMs into this field right now.

 

[DireMoose]

Our chair got a salary increase of $150K, so yes … that plan seems to be working

Also if someone can verify if very prestigious west and east coast programs have instructors for a 5 years at 100K salary, it’d be helpful (our chair says this is true)

And yes: all of our dosimeterists make more than our proposed instructor salary

And no: we will likely hire a US MD for this (I’ve gone through our applications and am part of the interview process)

Just a joke. Have seen instructorship turn into an asst. prof position (not 5 yrs, just 2-3) just to toss you wherever they need you. Want to have a niche disease site and startup package and cut out a name for yourself? Yeah, you’ll get flexed to satellite X when the big man needs you.

Also, hey, good for those RTTs/dosimetrists pulling in 250K even if SF/NYC. Get it while you can. FIRE - not just for MDs.

 

[radoncopotamus]

W

Every dosimetrist I know and many RTTs make more than 125k. I know one RTT in a HCOL area who makes twice that.

FWIW, during interviews I've heard unsubstantiated rumors of a "very prestigious" Texas academic program offering sub-100k for entry level positions.

Why the hell would you pay an RTT that much? What revenue are they bringing in?

 

[StIGMA]

If you don't have the support coming out of residency to get a true faculty job (your chair is probably the biggest determinate of this), my understanding is its a long, hard and uphill battle. Once you demonstrate a willingness to work for less to stay in academics, you are going to be treated like a second class citizen.

This should be emblazoned on every resident room wall. I shout this at residents who still wear their 'academic prestige' goggles. Hope saying you work for X university instead of 'less prestigious' Y university is worth delaying financial freedom, academic independence, etc etc.

 

[metallica81788]

Sometimes people have to make their own mistakes and learn the value of "prestige" - you can lead a horse to water...

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

This should be emblazoned on every resident room wall. I shout this at residents who still wear their 'academic prestige' goggles. Hope saying you work for X university instead of 'less prestigious' Y university is worth delaying financial freedom, academic independence, etc etc.

Preach.

I had a meeting in my mid-PGY4 year with my Chair. I was told "we're not sure we're hiring for your year, but perhaps we could arrange an Instructor position". That was the day the last shred of interest I had in collecting more "academic prestige" died, and I reached out to about a dozen private practices over the next few weeks. The brass rings ain't worth it (to me, at least).

 

[medgator]

This should be emblazoned on every resident room wall. I shout this at residents who still wear their 'academic prestige' goggles. Hope saying you work for X university instead of 'less prestigious' Y university is worth delaying financial freedom, academic independence, etc etc.

I would view perceived "prestige" coupled with location as being inversely correlated to academic job quality these days. How do you think Stanford, MGH etc are getting away with these lowball low quality entry level positions

 

[RickyScott]

Preach.

I had a meeting in my mid-PGY4 year with my Chair. I was told "we're not sure we're hiring for your year, but perhaps we could arrange an Instructor position". That was the day the last shred of interest I had in collecting more "academic prestige" died, and I reached out to about a dozen private practices over the next few weeks. The brass rings ain't worth it (to me, at least).

I would hope as this field settles into the gutter, that will quell status anxiety, and the exploitation of Instructorships is laid bare. Feeling proud as a Stanford RO instructor is like boasting that you went to Ross Medical School, the Harvard of the Carribean.

 

[fiji128]

Our chair got a salary increase of $150K, so yes … that plan seems to be working

Also if someone can verify if very prestigious west and east coast programs have instructors for a 5 years at 100K salary, it’d be helpful (our chair says this is true)

And yes: all of our dosimeterists make more than our proposed instructor salary

And no: we will likely hire a US MD for this (I’ve gone through our applications and am part of the interview process)

The only way someone could take a $100K instructor position after years of training is if they have a profound misunderstanding of their value and what opportunity cost are. You could easily make that much doing locums working like 1/3 of the year. Apparently, you can make that much driving a truck now too.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

The only way someone could take a $100K instructor position after years of training is if they have a profound misunderstanding of their value and what opportunity cost are. You could easily make that much doing locums working like 1/3 of the year. Apparently, you can make that much driving a truck now too.

Microsoft (and companies of similar ilk) are offering $200k+ salaries to 22 year-old Computer Science kids coming out of undergrad. I also know several senior administrative assistants making north of $100k (one makes close to $150k). Just some information that's good to have.

 

[medgator]

Microsoft (and companies of similar ilk) are offering $200k+ salaries to 22 year-old Computer Science kids coming out of undergrad. I also know several senior administrative assistants making north of $100k (one makes close to $150k). Just some information that's good to have.

Great job if they let you remote work. Not so great if you're forced to live near Seattle, Kirkland, Redmond etc

 

[hal9k]

Great job if they let you remote work. Not so great if you're forced to live near Seattle, Kirkland, Redmond etc

thats just their starting salary. Their pay generally increases to 400k-500k within 3-5 years in their late 20's, mostly thanks to stock market.

 

[medgator]

thats just their starting salary. Their pay generally increases to 400k-500k within 3-5 years in their late 20's, mostly thanks to stock market.

Yes stock options can be very lucrative. Tech has been powering the market for years now