Germany or Australia

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iliveintexass

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If after failing to secure a spot in a US medical school, and not wanting to go to the caribbean schools, which country between Germany and Australia is the best to go for medical studies, with the intent of coming to America to practice?

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Australia of course, are you fluent in German? Lots of U.S. students go to Flinders. U of Sydney is another good option.
 
'is the best' is a somewhat diffuse question.

If you have money to burn, going to AU will surely make for a smoother entry into US graduate medical education.

If you:
- speak german
- have decent grades
- have at least an associates degree in the US
- you are a self-motivated individual who doesn't need any hand-holding throughout medschool

give germany a thought. You'll have to budget for 6 years of living expenses, but last thing I know there is no tuition for international students. (you can spend a good share of your clinical time in the US if you think you need that to build relationships and LORs)

In either case, you will have to get good USMLE scores for your re-entry into US medical education. Nobody will be able to give you solid information as to the odds of making it back from either of these countries.
 
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but last thing I know there is no tuition for international students.

Wha wha whaaaaaaaaaaaaat??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!

Are you telling me ...

That if I follow all the criteria above, I can go to a Western European Medical school, and only have to worry about my living expenses?

I am feeling rather faint.
 
not every german medical school is free. I study in germany for 6 month , for pre- med, the school is much harder then in here, be prepared to study alot, also they have some very good parctice in hospital for everystudent, which will help a lot in practice here in usa. Also it much cheaper to go to the Germany for med school then to Australia.
have fun , and good luck
 
The free schools are ... just government versus private? Is there any pattern, or is free versus pay completely random?

Thanks BTW :)
 
TheDervish said:
The free schools are ... just government versus private? Is there any pattern, or is free versus pay completely random?

Thanks BTW :)

To my knowledge, there are no private German medical schools (though there is one in Austria, Paracelsus).

As to who sets the fees, I'll yield to someone else's knowledge.
 
The free schools are ... just government versus private? Is there any pattern, or is free versus pay completely random?

There is one private school. http://www.uni-wh.de/ I don't know whether they admit internationals.

The rest are state schools. They don't charge tuition unless you fall behind in the regular schedule of classes and exams (there are some administrative fees of maybe $100-200/year, at times this includes a bus and subway pass for the city the school is located in). Admission of non-EU students is up to the individual university, there is a set quota of spots this group (5% or so). Practically all schools have international students, most from eastern europe, africa and the occasional ex-US service member.

Nothing in life is free. You have to take the extra time into account that it takes to obtain fluency in german (unless you are bilingual to start with, 2 years of US highschool german won't cut it) as well as the fact that medical school is typically 6 years. As for financial 'cost' you have to look at cost of living, travel to the US as well as the opportunity cost of entering the workforce a couple of years later. So, despite the money saved on tuition, you might end up with a total 'cost' not so much different from attending tuition financed overseas schools.
 
f_w thanks for the insightful clarification.
 
f_w said:
The rest are state schools. They don't charge tuition unless you fall behind in the regular schedule of classes and exams (there are some administrative fees of maybe $100-200/year, at times this includes a bus and subway pass for the city the school is located in).
Concerning these "administrative fees" for attending med school in Germany, currently it is more like $250-350/semester (this may vary depending on the university/state), however this is likely to change pretty soon, as it is planned to introduce real tuiton fees, so due to the time it takes to complete med school in Germany, you are pretty likely to become subject of future tuition, regardless of whether this may become the case tomorrow or in a couple of years, thus don't expect German med school to basically remain 'free'.

Still, overall tuition is unlikely to exceed $1500-2500 USD/year (again, depending on factors such as the university/state), thus still relatively affordable compared to the US, even if you add monthly living expenses of maybe ~ $1000 US.

f_w said:
Nothing in life is free. You have to take the extra time into account that it takes to obtain fluency in german (unless you are bilingual to start with, 2 years of US highschool german won't cut it)
Agreed, attending German med school should definitely only be considered an option if you feel truly comfortable expressing yourself in German, as well as understanding it to advanced level, as there is currently not a single German med school that offers international/English courses.
And then there are also some specific requirements that US students may not be aware of.

f_w said:
as well as the fact that medical school is typically 6 years.
Yes, the average med school graduate spent typically 6-7 years in med school (including however the US equivalent of pre-med training).
Also, you need to realize that many German students would often much rather attend med school in the US, rather than in Germany-so it may appear weird to a German student why a US student would want to attend German med school.

Additionally, it is generally not even easy for German applicants to get into med school, so many German pre-meds are often even evaluating alternatives such as attending med school in Switzerland, Austria, the UK, France, Italy and even Poland or Hungary.

As for financial 'cost' you have to look at cost of living, travel to the US as well as the opportunity cost of entering the workforce a couple of years later. So, despite the money saved on tuition, you might end up with a total 'cost' not so much different from attending tuition financed overseas schools.
Another thing to consider is the fact that while some German universities may indeed recommend students to prepare for, and take the USMLE exams (occassionally, even offering preparatory courses, i.e. in English terminology), actually doing so does also create additional costs.

If you are somewhat fluent in German you may find the following sites helpful (entry requirements, course schedules etc.):

http://www.medi-learn.de
http://www.medizinstudent.de
http://www.thieme.de

http://www.medi-learn.de/medizinstudium/foren
http://forum.medizinstudent.de

...the last ones being basically the German equivalent of SDN, if your German is not sufficient you may be able to use google to come up with an acceptable translation, alternatively you may also consider participating in the forum discussions in English, as basically the majority of German med students speaks sufficient English and most forum users would probably appreciate someone who can provide insights into the US med school system.


HTH
 
f_w said:
There is one private school. http://www.uni-wh.de/ I don't know whether they admit internationals.

This may indeed be interesting for US students: checking out their site it explicitly mentions an "International Office" for international applicants: http://notesweb.uni-wh.de/wg/orga/wgorganisation.nsf/name/cti_home-DE the contact address for international med school applicants being: [email protected]

Also, looking at http://notesweb.uni-wh.de/wg/orga/wgorganisation.nsf/name/kostenimeinzelnen-DE) it says completing their med school requires minimally 5 years (instead of 6 yrs for state schools) and costs EUR 25.000 which currently is ~ $30.000 US, resulting in a monthly fee of ~$500 US.
Apart from the possibility to pay everything upfront, they do however also offer several credit/loan schemes (check their site). And as was mentioned already, completing rotations in the US is meanwhile a pretty common thing among German med students.

HTH
 
iliveintexass said:
If after failing to secure a spot in a US medical school, and not wanting to go to the caribbean schools, which country between Germany and Australia is the best to go for medical studies, with the intent of coming to America to practice?
Ich kann mir wirklich nicht vorstellen das man so einfach und schnell Deutsch lerneren könnte. Ich studiere seit den 6 Schuljahr Deutsch in den USA, und habe es als zweite Hauptfach in College gehabt. Ich finde es immernoch ziemlich schwer mich auf Deutsch aus zu sprechen. Sprichst du schon Deutsch? Fließend? Ich finde es wirklich ausgezeichnet dass jemand der noch kein fließend Deutsch spricht dort studieren könnte.... und etwas so komplex wie Medicinie. Ich drücke dir die Daumen!! Viel Glück.
 
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iliveintexass said:
If after failing to secure a spot in a US medical school, and not wanting to go to the caribbean schools, which country between Germany and Australia is the best to go for medical studies, with the intent of coming to America to practice?
Ich kann mir wirklich nicht vorstellen das man so einfach und schnell Deutsch lerneren könnte. Ich studiere seit den 6 Schuljahr Deutsch in den USA, und habe es als zweite Hauptfach in College gehabt. Ich finde es immernoch ziemlich schwer mich auf Deutsch aus zu sprechen. Sprichst du schon Deutsch? Fließend? Ich finde es wirklich ausgezeichnet dass jemand der noch kein fließend Deutsch spricht dort studieren könnte.... und etwas so komplex wie Medicinie. Ich drücke dir die Daumen!! Viel Glück.
 
Concerning the readiness to learn a complex language (such as German) from scratch in order to attend med school: this does not seem to be that uncommon among medical students in general, be it for the sake of escaping comparatively high tuition fees, or in order to bypass relatively restrictive admission criteria in their own country.
As I mentioned already, not an insignifcant number of prospective German med students is even willing to attend medical school in France or Italy, which also requires fluentness in the respective national language, mainly due to pretty restrictive admission criteria for German nationals.

In fact, there are meanwhile commercial preparatory courses which are specifically meant to enable applicants to train for the individual national admission tests within 1-4 months, and surprisingly often, German students seem to be able to successfully complete these admission tests after such a program.
So, I think it simply takes a lot of dedication and motivation. On the other hand, once you actually live in the corresponding country, you should of course be sufficiently motivated to get able to express yourself. Naturally, medicine in itself is a very broad and complex subject, too. But if you are honest: as a medical student, you'll have to learn a completely new language either way, and luckily medical terminology is relatively standardized.

Apart from that, I am really not sure if you could really attend German med school without providing a proof of your grasp of German, usually international students are indeed required to do exactly that. Also, the previously mentioned private med school mentions several German language prep courses, too. So, I would expect international students to be recommended or even required to attend such courses.
Regarding the time it may take to learn German sufficiently in order to be able to attend medical school, personally I would guess you would at least require 3-4 years of exposure in school, or alternatively living at least 1-2 years in an exclusively German-speaking environment.
For an English-speaking person, learning German from scratch is probably similarly challenging as learning Spanish, simply due to the comparatively more finely grained language. On the other hand, if you do already know Spanish, the transistion to German may indeed appear somewhat smoother due to certain similarities.
 
In order to register as an international student, one has to provide a passing score in one of the 'german as a second language' tests. One is the 'testDaf' ( www.testdaf.de ), the other one is a test administered by the Goethe Institute.

For someone already able to speak 2-3 languages in addition to his native tongue, picking up german is not difficult. It can be accomplished in a few months, particularly in an immersion environment. In the US, I have met only a few people who spoke more than one foreign language, and most of them either didn't grow up the US or didn't go through the US school system. Starting to learn german from scratch in order to attend medschool is imho a futile endeavour (unless you already speak a couple of foreign languages or grew up bilingual).
 
MedWiz said:
Additionally, it is generally not even easy for German applicants to get into med school, so many German pre-meds are often even evaluating alternatives such as attending med school in Switzerland, Austria, the UK, France, Italy and even Poland or Hungary.

I've been told that the three German language programs in Hungary are oversubscribed to the point (this doesn't keep a handful of Germans from enrolling in the English language programs) despite tuition fees starting around 10.000 Euro per year.

I also happend to be in Vienna last Summer when hundreds of German students attempted to enroll into Austrian medical schools following an ECJ decision that allowed them to do so. The Austrian media at the time did not have kind words for them.

Spiegel online:

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Geneva, sans-serif][size=-1]
Land unter an den Medizin-Unis

Das ging so lange gut, bis der Europäische Gerichtshof im Juli 2005 entschied, dass diese Regelung EU-Recht verletzt und nicht-österreichische EU-Bürger diskriminiert. Österreichs Bundesregierung musste daraufhin die rechtswidrige Protektion aufgeben.

Kaum hatte der Gerichtshof das Gesetz gekippt, strömten deutsche Bildungsflüchtlinge in Massen über die Grenze: Schon im November stöhnten zwölf Hochschulen in Österreich über einen Anstieg bei den Erstsemestern, insgesamt sah man sich mit 2200 Studienanfängern mehr als im Vorjahr konfrontiert - 1800 davon stammten aus Deutschland. Sie stürmten vor allem die medizinischen Hochschulen in Wien, Graz und Innsbruck. In Graz stellen die Deutschen in diesem Semester stolze 42 Prozent der Studienanfänger, ein Jahr zuvor waren es noch 2,7 Prozent - in absoluten Zahlen 622 statt 20 Erstsemester aus Deutschland.
[/size].
 
Truly 'international' students in the sense of university admission law are the ones who didn't attend high-school in any of the EU countries. The admission process for the 'domestic' (german and EU) spots is competitive, if I remember correctly, the ratio of applicants to positions is 4:1

Internationals are not part of this system, they fall under a different quota. It is difficult to get a handle on how strong the competition for the 'international' positions is these days, the universities are not obliged to publish any data on this. Just like in the UK schools, there is some inclination to give preference to candidates from countries that don't have medical schools.
 
MedWiz said:
...Additionally, it is generally not even easy for German applicants to get into med school, so many German pre-meds are often even evaluating alternatives such as attending med school in Switzerland, Austria, the UK, France, Italy and even Poland or Hungary...
I've heard the same thing for some of these countries, including the UK. But the concours at French schools seem to be brutally selective so I doubt many students from any country use them as a backup. I know of several non-French EU students but I'm pretty sure they could have got into med schools in their home countries too. Any German students unable to make it into German med schools probably don't have much of a shot at a French school unless their Abitur results underestimated what they're capable of.

And as for Switzerland, unless a German student has something like Swiss residency status, Swiss schools are pretty much out of the question.

I suspect a number of both French and German students would pick a Swiss med school over one of their own. Not because they think Swiss schools are any better, but rather because they think it might give them a (slightly) better shot at practicing in Switzerland. ;) Then again, for anyone lucky enough to be Swiss, it doesn't sound terribly difficult to make it into a Swiss school.

But as for deciding between a German and an Australian med school, I'd pick a German school. But I think you'd find a lot of people would prefer an Australian med school (especially since that would entail...well...living in Australia. :))

A lot hinges on how good your German is (at least one school wants you to have all 5's on your TestDaF...ouch) and how familiar you are with day to day life in Germany.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
MedWiz said:
...In fact, there are meanwhile commercial preparatory courses which are specifically meant to enable applicants to train for the individual national admission tests within 1-4 months, and surprisingly often, German students seem to be able to successfully complete these admission tests after such a program.
Any North Americans should be at least a little cautious.

From what I've seen, German students are head and shoulders above most Americans and Canadians with regards to learning other languages. Within Europe, the French are notoriously bad but even they seem to fare much better than most North Americans.
 
Well I live in Texas, but I was born in Britain, so I'm an EU member obviously. I was told that because I already have a degree from the USA, that I could go to a medical school in the East of Germany, a place called Jena. I do not know how good of a school this is. I have been in contact with several German language schools in Germany, and they say that it will take about 10 months of full-time classes to be able to pass the TestDAF test. The courses cost about 4000 Euro, not including living expenses and accomodation.

Anyway, I have to decide fairly quickly, because the courses begin soon. I guess it sounds like an adventure, an interesting life experience. And at the end of the day I'm still a doctor even if I go back to the US and become a pediatrician or whatever low-competitve residency I can get in because I'm a FMG. I know for a fact, that because I don't have greencard, and will not be able to get one until my sister sponsors me in, that I cannot get into a US medical school. Also, because I haven't lived in England for a long time, I am classified as a international student in the UK for 3 years. I recently travelled to England after a long time, and it was a horrible experience. The country is a total mess and I left feeling really disgusted to be British. I think if I go to Germany, I will become a German, and renounce my British citizenship.
 
Where did you go to high-school ?

And why don't you attend medschool in the US ? There is no law requiring you to be a permanent resident. With a US college degree, you can get admission to medschool like anyone else. (You do have however the problem of financing it. The federal loan programs are out, you are going to need some other source of credit to do this.)

As for Jena. You do know that it is in eastern germany. If the UK depressed you, you might want to spend some time there before you commit a lot of time and money to this project.

> I think if I go to Germany, I will become a German, and renounce my
> British citizenship.

It takes 8 years of residency before you can apply for that.
 
brightblueeyes said:
Then again, for anyone lucky enough to be Swiss, it doesn't sound terribly difficult to make it into a Swiss school.

Getting in is really not hard... staying more than one or two years, however, is something completely different.
The weeding that occurs before and during the application process in the US is simply done after admission in Switzerland.

40-60% of the students have to fail during the first two years as there are not enough spots during the clinical years.
 
follow your heart.... it will lead you to the right destination....
 
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