General Surgery 5 and 7 year Programs

[jinascalpel]

I have heard from friends on the trail last year that there is an increasing number of programs which require research years

I would like to create a list of schools that require a one or two year research period, or "strongly" recommend it. I have even heard of programs which strong-arm residents into research even though they weren't advertised that way. We can compile them in this thread. I think this would be helpful for applicants like myself who want to limit their applications to 5 year programs.

For an individual program, it should be fairly easy to determine its status, but a compilation would be helpful. Finally, the point about pediatric surgery, surg onc and plastics already requiring research has been hashed and rehashed, and doesn't need to be gone over.

Thanks!

? indicates an unsubstantiated rumor, all others are verified on website

research required:

Duke
University of Maryland
Mass General?
BID?
Brigham?
U of Penn Hershey

Research "strongly" recommended
Cornell

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[lordman]

You will find what you want in FREIDA online.

 

[jinascalpel]

You will find what you want in FREIDA online.

I appreciate pointing this resource out, I'm still interested in hearing what the "ground truth" is from applicants who have been there and talked to residents especially re: programs that strongly encourage research, but don't outwardly make it a requirement.

Again thanks for the link, it will be very helpful.

 

[Guile]

I appreciate pointing this resource out, I'm still interested in hearing what the "ground truth" is from applicants who have been there and talked to residents especially re: programs that strongly encourage research, but don't outwardly make it a requirement.

Again thanks for the link, it will be very helpful.

FREIDA is going to be the best bet to get prelim info, and if you have questions about specific programs that might list a 5 year residency but you're unsure if it's true, ask here. Someone will know. Your best bet will be to apply widely and go on the interviews you get offered and find out yourself.

 

[Darksmurf]

? indicates an unsubstantiated rumor, all others are verified on website

research required:

Duke
University of Maryland
Mass General?
BID?
Brigham?
U of Penn Hershey
George Washington (1 year)
Stanford (2-3 years 'professional development')

Research "strongly" recommended
Cornell

 

[Chirurgia magna]

Add there UVA, U of Michigan, and UCSF

? indicates an unsubstantiated rumor, all others are verified on website

research required:

Duke
University of Maryland
Mass General?
BID?
Brigham?
U of Penn Hershey
George Washington (1 year)
Stanford (2-3 years 'professional development')

Research "strongly" recommended
Cornell

 

[DrNick Riviera]

Add UPMC

 

[Guile]

Or maybe you guys could just copy and paste the list and add the schools yourself? Has it been that long since we had the interview thread?

Also, at UVA the research is strongly recommended. There is usually one or two who goes straight through.

 

[hanky1982]

Also, isn't it Penn State Hershey and not U of Penn Hershey?

 

[SocialistMD]

I don't understand what difference it makes. If you don't want to be an academic surgeon, apply to community programs; there are a lot that offer excellent operative training. If you want to be an academic surgeon, take the opportunity during residency to build those research skills or, if you are unsure, use that time to figure it out. In the grand scheme of things, two years doesn't really matter, but if you know you don't want that kind of career, you really gain nothing by going to a big name program and will potentially learn your trade better at non-academic programs.

 

[filter07]

I don't understand what difference it makes. If you don't want to be an academic surgeon, apply to community programs; there are a lot that offer excellent operative training. If you want to be an academic surgeon, take the opportunity during residency to build those research skills or, if you are unsure, use that time to figure it out. In the grand scheme of things, two years doesn't really matter, but if you know you don't want that kind of career, you really gain nothing by going to a big name program and will potentially learn your trade better at non-academic programs.

Finally, the voice of reason. Thank you.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Also, isn't it Penn State Hershey and not U of Penn Hershey?

That is correct.

U Penn is in Philadelphia.

 

[Dirt]

I don't understand what difference it makes. If you don't want to be an academic surgeon, apply to community programs; there are a lot that offer excellent operative training. If you want to be an academic surgeon, take the opportunity during residency to build those research skills or, if you are unsure, use that time to figure it out. In the grand scheme of things, two years doesn't really matter, but if you know you don't want that kind of career, you really gain nothing by going to a big name program and will potentially learn your trade better at non-academic programs.

It does make a difference for exactly the reasons you stated.

Many people would like to know which programs are really 7 years so they can elect to either apply to or avoid them.

Freida does not list this information with any sort of regularity. Many programs that carry the "most of our residents 'elect' to do 2 years of research tag" are merely listed as 5 year programs. Frankly, waiting until the interview to hear if a program is 5 or 7 years is too late.

Speaking from experience, this information is not always readily available on the program websites either (although it often is).

 

[JPdrain1]

I don't understand what difference it makes. If you don't want to be an academic surgeon, apply to community programs; there are a lot that offer excellent operative training. If you want to be an academic surgeon, take the opportunity during residency to build those research skills or, if you are unsure, use that time to figure it out. In the grand scheme of things, two years doesn't really matter, but if you know you don't want that kind of career, you really gain nothing by going to a big name program and will potentially learn your trade better at non-academic programs.

agreed.

Besides, making an "official list" on SDN won't help if schools change their tune. I assume that's why Frieda doesn't list this info systematically. Case in point: wasn't there a school in Florida that changed to a 7 year program this year but waited to tell their applicants ON the interview day?

 

[SocialistMD]

It does make a difference for exactly the reasons you stated.

Many people would like to know which programs are really 7 years so they can elect to either apply to or avoid them.

Freida does not list this information with any sort of regularity. Many programs that carry the "most of our residents 'elect' to do 2 years of research tag" are merely listed as 5 year programs. Frankly, waiting until the interview to hear if a program is 5 or 7 years is too late.

Speaking from experience, this information is not always readily available on the program websites either (although it often is).

I guess my point, as someone else with experience, is that research years shouldn't matter as much as how well you fit in with a program, something you won't find out until your interview. If you know you don't want to do academic surgery, don't apply to the big name places like MGH, BWH, JHU, Wash U, etc..., because you don't need to. There are places that will train you as well, if not better, in how to be a non-academic surgeon. If you do want to do academics, the research years shouldn't matter, as you have declared yourself interested in research by the very nature of wanting to be an academic surgeon.

 

[jinascalpel]

I guess my point, as someone else with experience, is that research years shouldn't matter as much as how well you fit in with a program, something you won't find out until your interview. If you know you don't want to do academic surgery, don't apply to the big name places like MGH, BWH, JHU, Wash U, etc..., because you don't need to. There are places that will train you as well, if not better, in how to be a non-academic surgeon. If you do want to do academics, the research years shouldn't matter, as you have declared yourself interested in research by the very nature of wanting to be an academic surgeon.

I think it's ridiculous to assume that of the hundreds of 4th year surgery applicants with their diverse ambitions and aspirations, you can cleanly split them into one group of applicants who want to be academic, and for whom mandatory research years "shouldn't" matter and another group of applicants that want to go to community programs.

I mean come on. I was asking for information that will help applicants make informed decisions, nothing more.

 

[SocialistMD]

I think it's ridiculous to assume that of the hundreds of 4th year surgery applicants with their diverse ambitions and aspirations, you can cleanly split them into one group of applicants who want to be academic, and for whom mandatory research years "shouldn't" matter and another group of applicants that want to go to community programs.

I mean come on. I was asking for information that will help applicants make informed decisions, nothing more.

You were the one who wanted to create a list of programs with (A) mandatory and (B) not mandatory research. As others have stated, there are many factors that play into the "required" bit. For example, if you have a PhD, the programs that "require" research don't necessarily still "require" it, though that is program specific. It isn't possible to create a black and white list because the "required" research at programs that "require" it isn't black and white, either. It is for this reason that you have had as many people telling you this is an unattainable goal or that it shouldn't matter as you have had actual responses.

I would like to create a list of schools that require a one or two year research period, or "strongly" recommend it. I have even heard of programs which strong-arm residents into research even though they weren't advertised that way. We can compile them in this thread. I think this would be helpful for applicants like myself who want to limit their applications to 5 year programs.

My initial post was to address what is bolded in your (above listed) initial post.

If you want to be an academic surgeon, take the opportunity during residency to build those research skills or, if you are unsure, use that time to figure it out.

Now, to address this:

I think it's ridiculous to assume that of the hundreds of 4th year surgery applicants with their diverse ambitions and aspirations, you can cleanly split them into one group of applicants who want to be academic, and for whom mandatory research years "shouldn't" matter and another group of applicants that want to go to community programs.

I didn't say that. I said you can split them into three groups; those who do (want to be academic surgeons), those who don't and those who are unsure. You know right now where you fall on the spectrum of being a community general surgeon to being the chairman of MGH general surgery.

Obviously, if you want to be an academic surgeon, you should want to find a place that has research opportunities, be they mandatory or optional. The research doesn't have to be basic science, but you want to find a place that will encourage your academic efforts. Remember, most programs do not require research, yet many people still create academic careers for themselves, so it is obvious that going to a place with required research isn't the be-all, end-all in becoming an academic surgeon.

If you don't want to be an academic surgeon, there is no reason for you to pursue training at an Ivory Tower-type of institution, be it a place that requires research or not; the only thing you gain there is the ability to have research experience and to hob-knob with the bigshots in each field to improve your chances at academic advancement down the line. Neither of those two things matter if you are a community surgeon. The clinical surgical training is no better there, and if you are going to be a community general surgeon, you don't need to do 10 Whipples in training if you'll never do them again. Instead, go to a place where you'll do 150 gallbladders, as that is what you'll be doing on a daily basis. None of the places you should even be considering will have mandatory research, so creating a list is pointless.

Finally, what if you are unsure if you want to be an academic surgeon or not or you want to make sure you haven't closed any doors? Well, again it shouldn't matter. Mandatory research doesn't mean mandatory basic science research. Some places allow you to get other advanced degrees (i.e. MPH) or advance your clinical research skills in other ways without spending time in a conventional lab. Regardless of if you become a community surgeon or an academic one, the skills learned during that time will help you become a better surgeon (how to best read the literature to see how to best treat your patients, etc...). Also, the hob-knobbery that goes on at the holier-than-thou institutions will be of benefit if you decide to pursue academics, though won't hurt you if you go community.

So, in conclusion, I stand by what I said initially; I don't see the point in creating this list, as I don't see how its creation will help applicants make more informed decisions. I see why you want to do it (using it for screening purposes), but I think it is a bad call. It is analogous to programs screening applicants based on USMLE scores (which, yes, does happen, but I don't agree with it) without evaluating the whole applicant; discounting a program just because it has 2 years of suggested or required research is very short-sighted.

 

[rivwest]

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but this is interesting.

Is there an exception for candidates who already have MD-PhDs? In that case, those two years of research stuck in the middle of the residency are almost useless if you're actually aspiring to an academic surgery career. Since you will be dropping the research to go back to complete residency, you can't apply for a K99/R00 NIH grant during that period, which means you're just two years farther away from getting an R01.

I can understand research with a fellowship, since your project can be continued and channeled into getting serious independent grants. But doing research during residency seems useless if you keep your eye on the goal of setting up your own lab as a PI.

 

[LucidSplash]

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but this is interesting.

Is there an exception for candidates who already have MD-PhDs? In that case, those two years of research stuck in the middle of the residency are almost useless if you're actually aspiring to an academic surgery career. Since you will be dropping the research to go back to complete residency, you can't apply for a K99/R00 NIH grant during that period, which means you're just two years farther away from getting an R01.

I can understand research with a fellowship, since your project can be continued and channeled into getting serious independent grants. But doing research during residency seems useless if you keep your eye on the goal of setting up your own lab as a PI.

As noted in the post immediately prior to yours, many places will make exceptions for those with a PhD. But you will need to make specific inquires with each program regarding their policies as each will make such decisions independently. As such, no blanket answer can be provided.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but this is interesting.

Is there an exception for candidates who already have MD-PhDs? In that case, those two years of research stuck in the middle of the residency are almost useless if you're actually aspiring to an academic surgery career. Since you will be dropping the research to go back to complete residency, you can't apply for a K99/R00 NIH grant during that period, which means you're just two years farther away from getting an R01.

I can understand research with a fellowship, since your project can be continued and channeled into getting serious independent grants. But doing research during residency seems useless if you keep your eye on the goal of setting up your own lab as a PI.

Many places will probably tell you that they're willing to make an exception (though you still have to specifically ask each place), but they will probably also tell you that it's not a guarantee. It has a lot to do with how the numbers work out for their classes. Since you can only graduate X number of chiefs per year, the PD has to do some shuffling to keep the numbers in each class correct. If 1 person is exempted from the requirement, it means that that someone in the lab has to spend an extra year out to "make room" for the exempted individual, which can then start a cascade effect. (There can also be temprary exemptions from the ACGME/RRC to graduate an extra resident, but again, it's not a given.)

Whether a PD is willing to put up with the hassle fo figuring that stuff out on a yearly basis is the question. Don't just look for places that say they're "willing" to do it, but for places that have a track record of exempting people.

 

[Buzz Me]

Well-said above. I went to a residency program where at least 2-3 people each PGY year went into the lab annually (after finishing either their PGY-2 or PGY-3 year). You wouldn't believe the nightmare that scheduling was with so many variables - people coming in and out of the lab, people going in after various numbers of clinical years, people staying in the lab for 1-3 years. In the end, the math has to work out - e.g. if two people are coming out to start their PGY-3 year, then two PGY-2s need to go into the lab, no matter what.

The larger the residency program, the more flexibility there is. If you're an MD-PhD trying to avoid going into the lab but the program must have 1-2 residents leaving after their PGY-3 year, every year, for example - and it's a smaller program - it may be harder to make exceptions.

 

[droliver]

2 years in the lab during residency is increasingly an insane proposition when you consider the large
number of residents that pursue additional fellowship training (particularly from top programs who turn out no general surgeons to begin with) and the lengthening of those programs (ie. vascular surgery and plastic surgery). As our earning potential has decreased over 40%+ over the last 25 years, the financial hit from non-clinical "professional development" in the lab is not sustainable as the lost wages are devastating when compounded over a 25-30 year career.

 

[Docbeme]

2 years in the lab during residency is increasingly an insane proposition when you consider the large
number of residents that pursue additional fellowship training (particularly from top programs who turn out no general surgeons to begin with) and the lengthening of those programs (ie. vascular surgery and plastic surgery). As our earning potential has decreased over 40%+ over the last 25 years, the financial hit from non-clinical "professional development" in the lab is not sustainable as the lost wages are devastating when compounded over a 25-30 year career.

In addition to the negative financial aspects of the research years, the projected doctor shortage, including the need for a very substantial number of surgeons, predicted by AAMC would seem to necessitate that the two research years be revisited.

https://www.aamc.org/initiatives/fixdocshortage/

At this point, I am just a lowly M2 considering surgery. I am curious as to what other specialty areas require research years?

 

[Buzz Me]

Fellowships don't "require" research years (at least, not in surgical fields). Having said that, the most competitive fields (Peds, Plastics, Surg Onc, etc.) often have most of their candidates with research experience as it looks good on the CV (and also helps with networking).

 

[Winged Scapula]

In addition to the negative financial aspects of the research years, the projected doctor shortage, including the need for a very substantial number of surgeons, predicted by AAMC would seem to necessitate that the two research years be revisited.

https://www.aamc.org/initiatives/fixdocshortage/

At this point, I am just a lowly M2 considering surgery. I am curious as to what other specialty areas require research years?

Gen. surgery is rather unique in its requirements for research during residency in some programs. I am not aware of any other specialty that does that routinely.

However you will find in fields like Radiation Oncology, where many of the practitioners have M.D/PhD's, that research is expected.

As noted above, other specialties don't necessarily require research time but it serves the as a way to differentiate amongst all the competitive Candidates.

 

[45408]

neusu (SDN user) commented that s/he has the option to do a research year as a neurosurgery resident, without any added time overall. It's just rolled into the 7 year total. Not sure if that's unique to that program or if it's common.

 

[SLUser11]

neusu (SDN user) commented that s/he has the option to do a research year as a neurosurgery resident, without any added time overall. It's just rolled into the 7 year total. Not sure if that's unique to that program or if it's common.

I'm no expert, but I think a large portion of several of the IM and Peds fellowships involve months (and months) of research. So, I don't think surgery is unique in requiring dedicated research time, just unique in how it's labeled.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm no expert, but I think a large portion of several of the IM and Peds fellowships involve months (and months) of research. So, I don't think surgery is unique in requiring dedicated research time, just unique in how it's labeled.

No expert here either but I think fellowships are different beast. I had a research requirement during my fellowship and perhaps you did as well. Many neurosurgery programs do have the option of additional research year.

I still stand by the contention that general surgery is somewhat unique for its emphasis on a dedicated period of research time, often years in length.

 

[Docbeme]

Gen. surgery is rather unique in its requirements for research during residency in some programs. I am not aware of any other specialty that does that routinely.

However you will find in fields like Radiation Oncology, where many of the practitioners have M.D/PhD's, that research is expected.

As noted above, other specialties don't necessarily require research time but it serves the as a way to differentiate amongst all the competitive Candidates.

Thank you for your response.

Unless you are going into an academic environment where you will be directly associated with research, and have had no prior experience, I don't see the upside of the research requirement.

Most Gen Surg People who go on and do a fellowship are in their mid-30's or older when they finish training,and the research years reduce the number of available surgeons at a time when docs, particularly when the PPACA really gets rolling in 2014, will be in short supply, not to mention baby boomer demographics.

As I said in an earlier post, as a med student, my perspective is limited,but the research requirement, typically for gen surg. seems like something that should be dropped.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

As I said in an earlier post, as a med student, my perspective is limited,but the research requirement, typically for gen surg. seems like something that should be dropped.

But I suspect the projected shortage is for your bread and butter general surgeon in undeserved areas. People choosing to attend programs with research requirements are not generally looking to fill that niche. That means getting rid of the requirement isn't really going to address any projected shortage.

 

[RIPSanto]

FREIDA is going to be the best bet to get prelim info, and if you have questions about specific programs that might list a 5 year residency but you're unsure if it's true, ask here. Someone will know. Your best bet will be to apply widely and go on the interviews you get offered and find out yourself.

Does anyone know if Vanderbilt, University of Chicago, Northwestern and Mayo require research years? According to FREIDA they are 5 year programs.

What is the consensus on programs that say "5 years" but then later mention 75+% of the residents do research. Does this mean you shouldn't apply if your not sure about research?

 

[thedrjojo]

Well-said above. I went to a residency program where at least 2-3 people each PGY year went into the lab annually (after finishing either their PGY-2 or PGY-3 year). You wouldn't believe the nightmare that scheduling was with so many variables - people coming in and out of the lab, people going in after various numbers of clinical years, people staying in the lab for 1-3 years. In the end, the math has to work out - e.g. if two people are coming out to start their PGY-3 year, then two PGY-2s need to go into the lab, no matter what.

The larger the residency program, the more flexibility there is. If you're an MD-PhD trying to avoid going into the lab but the program must have 1-2 residents leaving after their PGY-3 year, every year, for example - and it's a smaller program - it may be harder to make exceptions.

My program is in that exact situation... approved for 8... last year graduated 5, this year going to graduate 6, not sure what they are going to do with 10 PGY4's, and will likewise be screwed with 10 PGY3's... only 7 of us are in the lab right now since like no one from the PGY2 class (2 of 8) elected to do research... glad I'm not the PD... But, they actually didn't strong arm anyone to research, saying they will make it work...

 

[Food]

You can add University of Florida to the list of places starting to require 2 research years. I was very much in the mindset for a surgery career until I realized that it would end up totaling 9+ years of post-graduate training. 5 years + 2 research years + whatever left for fellowship, which 80% of you guys seem to be doing coming out of your residencies. It's a little insane to me. I had thought I could do 5...mayyybe 7 years and be done with it and finally start doing my job.

 

[SLUser11]

You can add University of Florida to the list of places starting to require 2 research years. I was very much in the mindset for a surgery career until I realized that it would end up totaling 9+ years of post-graduate training. 5 years + 2 research years + whatever left for fellowship, which 80% of you guys seem to be doing coming out of your residencies. It's a little insane to me. I had thought I could do 5...mayyybe 7 years and be done with it and finally start doing my job.

Those are made-up stats.

Across the country, most residents do not spend 2 years in the lab. If you want to be done in 5 years, that's fine as well. General surgery has the greatest demand.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

finally start doing my job.

This is the wrong mindset. The people doing 7-9 years of post-grad training (residency+research+fellowship) are doing it because it's the pathway to what they are interested in doing. It's certainly not mandatory. If you want to be a community general surgeon, you can certainly do it in 5 years. You just have to pick the right program--i.e. not one that requires research and is geared for people interested in pursuing fellowship/academic careers.

And for those people (including myself) who are looking at 9 years of post-MD training, I don't think we think of it as "until I can start doing my job". I am doing my job now, as a surgery resident which doubles as a training pathway. It's not like I'm still paying for school or doing an underpaid internship.

No one (in any career) starts at the top. If you are interested in being a partner at a Big Law firm, you're going to put in your time as the grunt working crappy hours as junior associate. I don't see residency as much different than that.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Across the country, most residents do not spend 2 years in the lab. If you want to be done in 5 years, that's fine as well. General surgery has the greatest demand.

This is the wrong mindset. The people doing 7-9 years of post-grad training (residency+research+fellowship) are doing it because it's the pathway to what they are interested in doing. It's certainly not mandatory. If you want to be a community general surgeon, you can certainly do it in 5 years. You just have to pick the right program--i.e. not one that requires research and is geared for people interested in pursuing fellowship/academic careers.

I am absolutely in agreement with these statements.

There is no requirement to do research at the vast majority of General Surgery programs in the US and most residents (who incidentally, are not training at these "big name" academic programs), don't spend 2 years in the lab. Nor do all fellowships require research (its really only Peds, PRS and Surg Onc where it seems essentially "required") or lab time.

If you want to be a general surgeon, you will find jobs all over the US. Because so many GS residents do fellowships, a good general surgeon is highly in demand.

 

[Dan Plainview]

Does anyone know if Vanderbilt, University of Chicago, Northwestern and Mayo require research years? According to FREIDA they are 5 year programs.

What is the consensus on programs that say "5 years" but then later mention 75+% of the residents do research. Does this mean you shouldn't apply if your not sure about research?

Mayo - no
Vandy and NW - yes, typically

 

[Smurfette]

UChicago---lab years are expected, but occasionally someone can go straight through if the numbers coming in/going out of the lab are favorable.

 

[lilcguy]

I would love to resurrect this thread. It sucks that we couldn't compile a list with those who wanted to compile because of non-interested rebuttals. I believe it is definitely possible to be an Academic Surgeon without 2 years in the lab.

 

[Sirach38]

I would love to resurrect this thread. It sucks that we couldn't compile a list with those who wanted to compile because of non-interested rebuttals. I believe it is definitely possible to be an Academic Surgeon without 2 years in the lab.

Why would you want to? If your goal is truly to be a good academic surgeon and you love research, two extra years to work on research will make you a better academic surgeon and should be a plus. If one is truly devoted to academics, those two years should be seen as a great opportunity and not a negative.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

So as for a list. Part of the problem here is that residencies like to play a Bill Clinton-esque game of "depends on what the meaning of the word is is".

What I mean by this is that often if you go to the PD of even the most academic program and ask if the 2 years are required, they will frequently tell you that it is not a requirement and then go on to cite that one resident 4 years ago who went straight through as proof of this (Even though the real reason that the resident went straight through 4 years ago is that someone in the class above them quit and the program needed to plug a hole).

So it's really hard to come up with a "required research" years list, even among the top research programs, since a lot of them - even places like MGH/UCLA/Hopkins - will tell you it's not "required".

As for a "research heavily encouraged to the point that the majority of residents do it" - well just go right ahead and throw nearly every "top 20/30/whatever" academic program on that list.

 

[IwannabeDrP]

Agree with this. If the program is a "brand name", 2 years of research is the norm.

 

[aprilfools]

Sorry for the thread necro, but I was wondering if anyone can clarify this for me. Take from Colorado's gen surg website: "Our categorical residents are expected to spend two years in the Department's research labs, in research labs outside the institution, or in academic endeavors such as postgraduate education". Does this mean that a fellowship in say vascular or thoracic surgery would fulfill these two extra years that are expected of residents?

 

[Smurfette]

Sorry for the thread necro, but I was wondering if anyone can clarify this for me. Take from Colorado's gen surg website: "Our categorical residents are expected to spend two years in the Department's research labs, in research labs outside the institution, or in academic endeavors such as postgraduate education". Does this mean that a fellowship in say vascular or thoracic surgery would fulfill these two extra years that are expected of residents?

No. The research years are generally between the 2nd and 3rd or 3rd/4th clinical years. You can't do a fellowship before finishing residency (other than critical care or burn). They mean you can do an MPH/MBA/PhD to fulfill the research requirement.

 

[aprilfools]

No. The research years are generally between the 2nd and 3rd or 3rd/4th clinical years. You can't do a fellowship before finishing residency (other than critical care or burn). They mean you can do an MPH/MBA/PhD to fulfill the research requirement.

I understand that you can't do a fellowship before you graduate, I was just a bit confused as to what "postgraduate education" meant in this context. I guess more specifically my question was does a fellowship after completion of your residency count as "postgraduate education" in this context? And the verdict then would be no, as by "postgraduate education" they are referring to MPH/MBA/PhD?


Additionally, I found this on Colorado's FREIDA, which added to my confusion as to whether or not a fellowship counts toward this postgraduate education, because I wasn't sure what exactly what is included under the word "academics" in this context: "In addition to the five years of general surgery clinical training, categorical residents are expected to spend at least one year in research/academics, however we do encourage that the residents participate in research for two years. There is abundant opportunity for clinical as well as basic science research within the department. Alternatively, several of our residents have completed masters degrees during the two research years."

 

[LucidSplash]

I understand that you can't do a fellowship before you graduate, I was just a bit confused as to what "postgraduate education" meant in this context. I guess more specifically my question was does a fellowship after completion of your residency count as "postgraduate education" in this context? And the verdict then would be no, as by "postgraduate education" they are referring to MPH/MBA/PhD?

Correct. As Smurfette noted above, this typically means MPH or MBA. PhD isn’t really a 2-year option. Completing a fellowship after graduation from reaidency doesn’t count towards the requirement.

 

[droliver]

There is no way in hell someone should consider a General Surgery program with a 2 year lab requirement. In this era that is a financial non starter, particularly when most GS grads from a university program go on to sub specialty fellowships.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

There is no way in hell someone should consider a General Surgery program with a 2 year lab requirement. In this era that is a financial non starter, particularly when most GS grads from a university program go on to sub specialty fellowships.

Unless:
1) You have a desire to be an independently funded academic surgeon (not as common)
2) You are interested in doing peds or surg onc fellowship, where research is functionally a requirement. Yes, there are examples of people who matched and did not do it...but it's the exception, not the rule.

 

[TypeADissection]

About 1/3 of the programs I interviewed when a MS4 were 7-years w/ the two of research after PGY-3. I ranked two of them in my top 5 because if I had matched into one of them, I would've made the most of it. At least that was my thought way back then when I was a young lad. For what I'm going into and where my interests are now, I am very thankful that I did not do a 7-year program. Some of my friends are finishing their research years and will be starting their clinical PGY-4's while I'm starting fellowship. They seem to be enjoying their time, but I'm just glad it's not me.

 

[vhawk]

Yeah I mean, I'm training chief residents who are almost universally younger than I am, which is interesting.