gen surg programs in chicago

mark md · Jun 2, 2003

I think it's a sad day in America when the freedom of speech is taken away from people (a thread eliminated by a moderator) because expressed facts conjuring a high degree of emotions concerning a particular program (the U of C surgery program) are too overt. Yes, the truth hurts, doesn't it? Well, my emotions are the same about the U of C-it's a malignant program and people should know that. It's a shame when the moderator becomes a dictator and because he/she holds a certain opinion about the philosophy expressed in a thread, it should be eliminated. I encourage all to continue to voice their opinions about the U of C gen surg program-good and bad (mostly we've heard very bad) and to let the web-site administrators know of the new bias in the form of a dictatorship that is taken over the student doctor forums. I would love to hear something good about the U of C for once, rather than all the bad stuff. It's quite clear that it is terribly malignant. I, too, also encourage any and everyone to rotate at the U of C and fomulate your own opinions but personal abusive experiences from residents would keep me away anytime--but, then again, that's just me. Any positives in the program?

__________
"Controversy breeds contempt and defense
"Everyone wouldn't be yelling out caution for laughs"
"The truth hurts"
"Einstein bred contempt when initially presenting the facts"

rynomite · Jun 2, 2003

right mark, and then when we do post good things about the U of C we're chastised, accused of being racist liars, puppets of the PD... As I and some of my co-residents have expressed, our experience has not been a bad one. I recieve good training and I get along well with everyone I work with. Here is my email if anyone would like to verify my existence or affiliation:
[email protected]

until then...

droliver · Jun 2, 2003

mark,

if another thread develops into the cesspool that the UofC thread became, I'll remove that as well. When you have very inflamatory statements that border on libel & some of the posts are clearly fraudulently posted by the same user(s) it will be removed. There is tremendous leeway afforded everyone here, but some people have chosen to abuse the anonymity of the internet on these boards.

apma77 · Jun 2, 2003

Dr oliver:

since you seem to REGULATE the content of this forum dont say that this a open forum to express views...you clearly are filtering it to your likes and dislikes.. i can understand deleting foul language..but you are eliminating peoples views

thats rather unhealthy!

Celiac Plexus · Jun 2, 2003

Originally posted by apma77
Dr oliver:

since you seem to REGULATE the content of this forum dont say that this a open forum to express views...you clearly are filtering it to your likes and dislikes.. i can understand deleting foul language..but you are eliminating peoples views

thats rather unhealthy!

First of all, this a free board that is not subject to any "censorship" laws. The moderators can delete whatever they want to delete.

Second, the moderators do tolerate an enormous amount of hysterical blatherings and give people tons of leeway.

Third, there is a way to convey information about a program without being abrasive, and offensive. Apma, you have established a reputation for being bombastic and rude and you seem to revel in it. Perhaps the thread might not have been deleted if you had expressed your views in a more civil manner.

Finally, womansurg, droliver, the other moderators, and the vast majority of posters on SDN make this board a great place to communicate information. In my opinion, it's a hell of a resource. Try saying thank you once on a while instead of constantly b*tching and generally being a pr*ck.

droliver · Jun 2, 2003

apma77,

peoples "views" in this case were both 1) libelous & 2)posted fraudulantly. It's nothing to do with my like & dislikes. I like gossip on training programs as much as the next person, but at some point you have to act like the moderator in a debate when you oversee a forum like this. If you prefer anarchy you might like the general forum better. If you want to play here, you have to remember that this is in a sense, a community. When you violate the rules you will get reprimanded

charles12 · Jun 2, 2003

I agree with Celiac and droliver. I only ask that someone out there acknowledge that resident verbal/mental abuse, which I experience day in and day out, is not appropriate. That's it. I don't mean to be "libel" and apologize if I said anything at all to offend anyone ever. It seems as if most people on the previous forum mocked my situation at the Univ of Chicago. So much so that someone came out to defend the actions. If you can and want to put up with or take the chance on abusive attendings/senior residents, the more power to you, and I'll see you here at the U of C (if I don't have a nervous-breakdown first). For me, though, it is a big load off my shoulders if I can tell someone AND someone feels for my situation. Some people suggested to undergo litigation and that's the only way an abusive program like the U of C would learn. That's not what I'm here for, though. I have a job to do here and will do my utmost to live up to it. But, for the love of God, if someone out there is from U of C (and their have been many unknowns, I agree), please try to make things better for me and the rest of the resident class. That is what I ask on the behalf of all residents. Please. That's it. If there's anyone with other advice on how I should proceed or what I can do to begin the process of reform at the U of C, please let me know...

jollygood · Jun 3, 2003

As an upper level resident at the U of C, I became aware of Charles' run-ins early on. I gave him my personal experience as a resident at the center that differed very little from his (especially as an upper level), empathized, counseled, and advised to hang low and perservere. Charles knows how to contact me; I have openly buttressed the cause of U of C residents because I know what it's like and what drove a good number of residents away from the program. A good friend of mine went into Rad Onc after some years inthe residency program, two into radiology, another into anesth. and even more than half a class one year left. I don't want to see that continue, so I'm again extending an invitation for Charles and any other of my fellow residents to come talk to me if there are problems such as that voiced by Charles. We have to realize that you can't find a solution on these forums. The solution has to be brought from within. Therefore, I'm willing to provide an open ear to any and everyone. Don't get me wrong, I know we have problems (i've experienced the same thing guys). Let's handle our problems ourselves. As for future applicants, several residents at the U of C (some have posted here) hold the notion of reform from the hardcore days at the center so I hope to see some in the future....keep up the hope.

phil123 · Jun 3, 2003

It's not just a coincidence that the U of Chicago surgical program was one of four in the nation to have to scramble for an ENT resident in 2002 (an ordinarily rather competitive field):
http://www.scutwork.com/cgi-bin/links/page.cgi?page=UnfilledPrograms2002_Otolaryngology&d=1

It's not just a coincidence that the program has to go lower and lower on its rank lists to recruit residents

It's not just a coincidence that increasingly there are outcries from multiple med students, residents, etc. about the malignant nature of the U of C.

It's not just a coincidence that some residents will come out to defend their program and mislead the applicant on interview days since some are guilty of themselves following the old school, hardcore method of training practiced by many at the U of C and their have been attempts to curb the criticisms

It's not just a coincidence that the program is loaded with FMIGS (almost like an FP residency): one from Iran, Italy, India, etc.

It's not just a coincidence that as an example more than half of a class of categorical residents left.

It's not just a coincidence, when you look at who graduated that most years you end up with 50% of what you thought was the class size--question the U of C about that when you interview there.

It's not just a coincidence that administration in the department clearly stated that the new 80 hour rules will only apply to 1st and 2nd years, if at all, and that it does not apply to upper levels.

It's not just a coincidence that when you call certain accrediting bodies questioning about this program the common answer you get is, 'we can't comment on the current problems facing the Univ of Chicago surg program. suffice it to say, there are a number of issues and we have stepped up investigations'

You decide.

ArrogantSurgeon · Jun 3, 2003

What are you guys blabbing on about. The University of Chicago is an excellent program. You guys sound bitter for some reason. I defy you to find solid, irrefutable evidence that U of C is a malignant program. Until then, whatever you say are mere opinions.

chicagosurgres · Jun 3, 2003

To ArrogantSurgeon:
I have no idea what level of your training you are at, but to be so flip and say someone is "blabbing" and U of C is an "excellent program" is irresponsible. You have no grounds to make comments like this unless you are going through what these people are going through. None of us, except for the residents in the U of C program, have any idea what the state of the program is at the present. We should all show some discretion before throwing in our two cents, and let the residents of the U of C program voice and discuss their concerns. We in this community should do our best to support them and give sound advice as may be needed...not to choose a side and make derogatory statements.

ArrogantSurgeon · Jun 3, 2003

Originally posted by chicagosurgres
To ArrogantSurgeon:
I have no idea what level of your training you are at, but to be so flip and say someone is "blabbing" and U of C is an "excellent program" is irresponsible. You have no grounds to make comments like this unless you are going through what these people are going through. None of us, except for the residents in the U of C program, have any idea what the state of the program is at the present. We should all show some discretion before throwing in our two cents, and let the residents of the U of C program voice and discuss their concerns. We in this community should do our best to support them and give sound advice as may be needed...not to choose a side and make derogatory statements.

I completely agree chicagosurgres.

However, so far we've only heard *opinions* of why U of C is malignant, a horrible place to train, etc.

If these claims are to be substantiated then we need *facts* to support the allegations.

droliver has also said that one or more people have been pretending to be different residents at U of C while criticizing the program. This, of course, weakens the allegations against U of C.

May I propose that some *facts* be presented to support the claims made against U of C. For example we can start with the following:

1. In the past 3 years or so, how many CATEGORICAL residents have been IMGs.

2. In the past 3 years, how many CATEGORICAL residents have voluntarily left the program or transferred to another program.

3. In the past 3 years, how many CATEGORICAL residents have been dismissed from the program.

4. In the past 3 years, how many CATEGORICAL residents who started the program graduated from the program.

5. In the past 3 years, what fellowships have the graduating residents obtained.

charles12 · Jun 3, 2003

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon
What are you guys blabbing on about.
You guys sound bitter for some reason.

Arrogant,
Now everyone can see what I mean by people mocking my situation here at the U of C. It's easy for you to say we're blabbing, but you try working here and then you'll know how it feels. There must be a reason we guys are "so bitter for some reason". Did you ever think about that? Or do you think we will take our valuable time up as residents posting on these forums to warn everyone and to vent? That there may have been a person(s) posting under different names seems very reasonable for some of the defenders of the program seeing that they registered at the same time, and posted one after the other. Regardless, this was just assumed by all the uproar. droliver acted correctly to stop a forum that was going out of control. I hope the same doesn't happen here, but I think it's important everyone know that day that I'll never forget, when I complained to the attending about racial slurs that were thrown at me by a senior and the attending replied, "you are a #$*@#, aren't you?" In any event, you are welcome to stop by the U of C anytime, I'll have coffee with you personally and explain exactly what's going on. Can I e-mail you? I am scared someone will report me to administration if it's done the other way because there is, believe it or not, a strong push to clean the air around here about the issues we face. I just don't have the energy to nor do I gain any pleasure from telling it the way it is here. If you want to join us, by all means do.

It's too bad there's not enough empathy out there. That's something you made need to learn before graduating med school.

gosh · Jun 3, 2003

Originally posted by charles12
Arrogant,
Now everyone can see what I mean by people mocking my situation here at the U of C. It's easy for you to say we're blabbing, but you try working here and then you'll know how it feels. There must be a reason we guys are "so bitter for some reason". Did you ever think about that? Or do you think we will take our valuable time up as residents posting on these forums to warn everyone and to vent? That there may have been a person(s) posting under different names seems very reasonable for some of the defenders of the program seeing that they registered at the same time, and posted one after the other. Regardless, this was just assumed by all the uproar. droliver acted correctly to stop a forum that was going out of control. I hope the same doesn't happen here, but I think it's important everyone know that day that I'll never forget, when I complained to the attending about racial slurs that were thrown at me by a senior and the attending replied, "you are a #$*@#, aren't you?" In any event, you are welcome to stop by the U of C anytime, I'll have coffee with you personally and explain exactly what's going on. Can I e-mail you? I am scared someone will report me to administration if it's done the other way because there is, believe it or not, a strong push to clean the air around here about the issues we face. I just don't have the energy to nor do I gain any pleasure from telling it the way it is here. If you want to join us, by all means do.

It's too bad there's not enough empathy out there. That's something you made need to learn before graduating med school.

I'm glad we have a site like this because I've confirmed my views of the Univ Chicago after my 4th year rotation there. I feel for you Charles and sorry you have to go through all that. Can't you transfer somewhere else?

ArrogantSurgeon · Jun 4, 2003

Originally posted by charles12
Arrogant,
Now everyone can see what I mean by people mocking my situation here at the U of C. It's easy for you to say we're blabbing, but you try working here and then you'll know how it feels. There must be a reason we guys are "so bitter for some reason". Did you ever think about that? Or do you think we will take our valuable time up as residents posting on these forums to warn everyone and to vent? That there may have been a person(s) posting under different names seems very reasonable for some of the defenders of the program seeing that they registered at the same time, and posted one after the other. Regardless, this was just assumed by all the uproar. droliver acted correctly to stop a forum that was going out of control. I hope the same doesn't happen here, but I think it's important everyone know that day that I'll never forget, when I complained to the attending about racial slurs that were thrown at me by a senior and the attending replied, "you are a #$*@#, aren't you?" In any event, you are welcome to stop by the U of C anytime, I'll have coffee with you personally and explain exactly what's going on. Can I e-mail you? I am scared someone will report me to administration if it's done the other way because there is, believe it or not, a strong push to clean the air around here about the issues we face. I just don't have the energy to nor do I gain any pleasure from telling it the way it is here. If you want to join us, by all means do.

It's too bad there's not enough empathy out there. That's something you made need to learn before graduating med school.

charles12, what you are saying may indeed be true. However, in order for any claim to have any value it must be supported by facts and evidence. Opinions by themselves are just that and don't carry much weight if they are not backed-up. That is why I asked for some support of all the claims made here with the following questions which I will repeat:

1. In the past 3 years or so, how many CATEGORICAL residents have been IMGs.

2. In the past 3 years, how many CATEGORICAL residents have voluntarily left the program or transferred to another program.

3. In the past 3 years, how many CATEGORICAL residents have been dismissed from the program.

4. In the past 3 years, how many CATEGORICAL residents who started the program graduated from the program.

5. In the past 3 years, what fellowships have the graduating residents obtained.

Since there are supposedly so many actual residents from U of C on this site and other people who have direct experience and knowledge about the program, then these questions should not be too difficult to answer.

phil123 · Jun 4, 2003

How do you get "irrefutable" evidence of a malignant atmosphere ? Do you make recordings? Do you tape the attending throwing things in the OR? There are answers to your questions, Arrogant and that's for you to obtain-do the research and you'll find out for yourself. If you can care less, become a resident at the Univ of C, and experience it first-hand, but don't minimize Charles' experiences. Arrogant is probably another cronie of the U of C defense team. There's definitely ample ignorance displayed in arrogant's postings.

apma77 · Jun 4, 2003

Phil is rite..how do you get irrefutable evidence of malignancy???
What a dumb thought!

rynomite · Jun 4, 2003

I could not agree more, Skylizard. So far, I'm the only one that has proven my affiliatiojn with the university and outright given my name and email address. And I can guarantee, arrogant is NOT a "cronie of the defense team." As previously stated, anyone can contact me for my opinion (and facts re: #of FMG...) at the email address previously stated

ry

phil123 · Jun 4, 2003

Rynomite,
when they contact you, be sure to demonstrate how malignant you can be...we've heard about you, too..

mark md · Jun 4, 2003

I agree with Skylizard. Websites like the one given in this post are very helpful and appreciated for applicants to use in their deliberations on programs out there.

Originally posted by phil123
It's not just a coincidence that the U of Chicago surgical program was one of four in the nation to have to scramble for an ENT resident in 2002 (an ordinarily rather competitive field):
http://www.scutwork.com/cgi-bin/links/page.cgi?page=UnfilledPrograms2002_Otolaryngology&d=1

It's not just a coincidence that the program has to go lower and lower on its rank lists to recruit residents

It's not just a coincidence that increasingly there are outcries from multiple med students, residents, etc. about the malignant nature of the U of C.

It's not just a coincidence that some residents will come out to defend their program and mislead the applicant on interview days since some are guilty of themselves following the old school, hardcore method of training practiced by many at the U of C and their have been attempts to curb the criticisms

It's not just a coincidence that the program is loaded with FMIGS (almost like an FP residency): one from Iran, Italy, India, etc.

It's not just a coincidence that as an example more than half of a class of categorical residents left.

It's not just a coincidence, when you look at who graduated that most years you end up with 50% of what you thought was the class size--question the U of C about that when you interview there.

It's not just a coincidence that administration in the department clearly stated that the new 80 hour rules will only apply to 1st and 2nd years, if at all, and that it does not apply to upper levels.

It's not just a coincidence that when you call certain accrediting bodies questioning about this program the common answer you get is, 'we can't comment on the current problems facing the Univ of Chicago surg program. suffice it to say, there are a number of issues and we have stepped up investigations'

You decide.

mark md · Jun 4, 2003

The number of residents graduating from the U of Chicago is a lot less (normally) than the number entering. The remaining juniors had to make up for the lack of bodies by taking call a lot more---and there are horror stories about that out there too. The program should be able to provide this and all other data to any applicant out there, and if not, be wary. Also, as flatus mentioned previously, one should question the program when going for an interview and ideally spend some time rotating through the department so you can see for yourself what goes on because really it is like a marriage when you sign with a program and you don't want to be up the creek! My close friend was in the U of C gen surg program and transferred out to Rad-Onc after a couple years because of the reasons enunciated on these forums. The next time I talk to him I will ask him if he visits these forums, and to post his views.

I will investigate whether there are additional websites that will prove the very few U of C defenders wrong.

Out of curiosity, Skylizard, you mentioned previously that you are on your third internship? Do you mind elaborating?

mark md · Jun 4, 2003

recall that the "truth machine" (rynomite) was the one to say that the U of C had not scrambled in an ENT resident in 2002...guess we proved his dishonesty.

apma77 · Jun 4, 2003

hey skylizard..care to elaborate why your LOR held you back from a residency spot???

rynomite · Jun 4, 2003

that's nice mark. I guess your time machine don't work too good!
What I stated was I don't believe BC scrambled into his spot, and, if he did, who cares? What you would know if you were at all familiar with our program is that ENT is entirely separate, except that their interns do a PRELIM year of G-surge. Furthermore, I went on to state that the ENT dept is nationally recognized and is ranked very highly by US news and World report. You should also know that the national attrition rate for G-surg is about 20% so most programs don't graduate as many as they take in. In my year no one left, in the year below me one person is leaving to do radiology. I think the marker of whether a program is malignant is if people leave a program and go do g-surg somewhere else. Most people that leave do so for lifestyle choices, or they realize surgery is a lot more difficult than when they were medical students (this holds true for our program as well) That's why the traditional washout areas for g-surg are radiology and anesthesia.
keep trying...

yours in truth,
ry

womansurg · Jun 4, 2003

There is a personality type which, unfortunately, is attracted to general surgery because of the elements of dominance and unchecked emotional sadism with which the discipline has been classically associated.

To healthy people, this pathologic behavior is boorish, counterproductive and a monstrous distraction from the art and science of the practice of surgery. Most of it is clear DSM IV stuff: obvious to everyone who views it. Certainly, this behavior bears no link to the effective provision of surgical care. Some of the most fumbling useless surgeons I've seen have been those overbearing, profane, militaristic types, while the most talented, respected and productive individuals who come to mind are uniformly those who handle themselves with grace and emotional maturity. These negative stereotypes are a growing embarrassment to the educated surgical community, and were it not for the promise of ongoing change, the decline in quality and quantity of surgery residency applicants would no doubt have continued to spiral.

It seems certain that many in the U of C program are holdovers from those less illustrious days of surgery - the reports are too many and too consistent not to believe. That's not surprising: many old school atmospheres persist in surgical training programs and surgery departments. People just need to know that the medical community is rapidly becoming intolerant of such nonsense. Changes are already being mandated into the surgical training curriculum by the ACGME, and expectations for personal conduct in the future will not allow for this type of environment to persist.

mark md · Jun 5, 2003

First, let me say womansurg must be an extremely intelligent person for making some sense of why so many people might be crying foul from the U of C. We are not wasting our time and don't have the time to waste. If we wanted to pick on multiple programs because of a dislike for surgery in general, we would. Instead, the U of Chicago has been singled out repeatedly. There must be a reason that even rynomite can't comprehend because he's blinded by his own malignancy and is insecure because he was unforunate to match at the U of C.

Skylizard, I am very happy to see you matched in G-surg. You deserve it. You, too, are very intelligent-a far cry from the likes of Arrogantsurgeon and misleading people like rynomite. You say your LOR held you back---your in the same ship as many grads at the U of C. Good luck.

Additionally, ranking in U.S News is not enough to make up for a malignant program. All subspecialties of surgery at the Univ of Chicago, including ENT, have subsection chiefs but come under the umbrella of ONE department Chairman and therefore the fact that ENT had to take an otherwise unmatched applicant through a scramble says loads about the Surgery department. Deny that, Rynomite. Once again, a misleading statement by rynomite.

Don't think that ascribing the high turnover rate at the U of C to a "general trend" in surgery is a good enough excuse for intelligent people. We can smell the skunk behind the curtain.

Final point: A good number of people from the U of C left to other G-surg programs, so says my friend who left to Rad-onc from the medical center. So, try finding more excuses rynomite. Admit it, as womansurg said, the philosophy of surgeons being old school and hardcore (as I've heard you are as well) is OLD NEWS and should be reformed. For anyone with continuing questions about the U of C, rotate there, please.

gosh · Jun 5, 2003

mark,
very sound points you make. i just know that i won't take a chance on the U of C not just from what's been said here, but my own experiences of rotating there and that's probably the best way to gather your own impressions. There is too much pandemonium about the program to go on a limb and chance it without investigating if seriously interested. Rynomite is dead wrong when he tries to defend the malignant training methods used.

ArrogantSurgeon · Jun 5, 2003

Originally posted by womansurg
There is a personality type which, unfortunately, is attracted to general surgery because of the elements of dominance and unchecked emotional sadism with which the discipline has been classically associated.

To healthy people, this pathologic behavior is boorish, counterproductive and a monstrous distraction from the art and science of the practice of surgery. Most of it is clear DSM IV stuff: obvious to everyone who views it. Certainly, this behavior bears no link to the effective provision of surgical care. Some of the most fumbling useless surgeons I've seen have been those overbearing, profane, militaristic types, while the most talented, respected and productive individuals who come to mind are uniformly those who handle themselves with grace and emotional maturity. These negative stereotypes are a growing embarrassment to the educated surgical community, and were it not for the promise of ongoing change, the decline in quality and quantity of surgery residency applicants would no doubt have continued to spiral.

It seems certain that many in the U of C program are holdovers from those less illustrious days of surgery - the reports are too many and too consistent not to believe. That's not surprising: many old school atmospheres persist in surgical training programs and surgery departments. People just need to know that the medical community is rapidly becoming intolerant of such nonsense. Changes are already being mandated into the surgical training curriculum by the ACGME, and expectations for personal conduct in the future will not allow for this type of environment to persist.

I sincerely hope you are right womansurg. I agree with you that most of the better surgeons at my med school (in terms of technical skill, patient relations, and clinical judgement) are the ones who do *not* harbor the Type-A, angry-at-the-world personality complex. It has always seemed that most abrasive, rude surgeons are the ones who really have an insecurity and deep-seated inferiority complex which they are over-compensating for by being malignant and nasty.

And the good thing, as you said, is that malignant surgeons are gradually becoming less and less prevalent than they were before. I personally know only a few attendings or residents in the surgery dept at my med school that I would classify as being "malignant" or consistently rude. Some others are a bit aloof, but I've found that if I engage them in conversation or directly ask them to teach me something on the wards or OR, then they are very accomodating and will take the time to help out.

apma77 · Jun 5, 2003

if you have to "ask" them to teach you, they shouldnt be in academics in the first place!

ArrogantSurgeon · Jun 5, 2003

Originally posted by apma77
if you have to "ask" them to teach you, they shouldnt be in academics in the first place!

Right, all residents and attendings should be tripping over each to teach students when they are so busy themselves.

Besides, not everybody goes into academics because they like to teach. Many just like to operate and crank out research papers and bring in the funding. Sure there are some "triple threat" attendings out there (e.g. those who are awesome at operating, publishing, and teaching), but there is no harm in asking to be taught something you are interested in. Not everything is handed to you passively because you simply show up and expect to be taught. Sometimes you have to actively go after it.

apma77 · Jun 5, 2003

I disagree with you arrogant..when some people pay over 30k a yr for medschool they expect to be given atleast a few pearls a day!
There is no room for people in academics who dont like to teach ..that is a fundamental cornerstone of being in academics..teaching!

gosh · Jun 5, 2003

A I said before, I rotated through gen surg at the U of C. At that time I was still deciding on gen surg as a career. Charles' experinces brought back one encounter I had with a senior attending there. I asked him about surgery as a career and how I might mend my life to fit a surgical lifestyle. To my inquires, he said something to this effect: "a surgery lifestyle is not for you, honey; girls should take up easy specialties like derm, peds, and ob....I can't understand why girls choose surgery."

On my team was the king of malignant senior residents, too (JB) who yelled at me on more than one encounter.

It's a priceless rotation for any med student to see how the old-school docs operated.

apma77 · Jun 8, 2003

hey charles12, im wondering if the faculty or residents at u of c found out that u had posted on this forum and what repercussions have u had as a result???

charles12 · Jun 11, 2003

Apma,
The Univ of Chicago is just a miserable place to be for many people. Because it's miserable, the residents and nurses turn out to be miserable, and so it continues. As for me, I'm hangin on by a thin string. You can feel the frustration in the air. Gen surg and it's subspecialties need major revamping here so I'm kinda glad the RRC is pounding our doors--it may initiate some reform for later years?!

charles12 · Jul 6, 2003

intersting thing happened the other day-

An attending in the U of Chicago surgery program asked me to be totally positive about our program to the incoming applicants. He admitted we have major problems, and even said he's looking for another position, but said it's best to resolve the problems/abuses of residents without getting the public involved.

You decide who's misleading!

ArrogantSurgeon · Jul 6, 2003

Originally posted by charles12
intersting thing happened the other day-

An attending in the U of Chicago surgery program asked me to be totally positive about our program to the incoming applicants. He admitted we have major problems, and even said he's looking for another position, but said it's best to resolve the problems/abuses of residents without getting the public involved.

You decide who's misleading!

Another unsubstantiated attack on U of C. For all the whinning about how horrible this place is, you guys still haven't managed to answer some objective questions I posted a while back that any true resident at U of C would know.

apma77 · Jul 9, 2003

AS sometimes you just need to shut the @#@# up!

mark md · Jul 16, 2003

Guys, apama and charles have a point:

Call the board if you don't believe it, but here it goes-
U of Chicago surgery program got a stiff warning recently from the RRC...shape up or the program flops!

apma77 · Jul 16, 2003

i would love to see em flop...im sure plenty others would too!

Brandon · Jul 17, 2003

Whoa, you guys are intense. Let me start out by saying that I'm a first year med student who "thought" he was interested in surgery (I know, too early in the game to really know what the heck I like or not). The postings here are pretty shocking! I've always thought that U of C was a good program. Now this is based SOLELY on marketing hypes and other med students who also probably haven't had any first hand experience so these postings are a definite wake-up call.

May I ask all of you - do you regret going in surgery or are you all just not happy with U of C's program?

What happens to the residents if the surgical program at U of C does fold due to the problems there?

Also, the previous post where a resident quoted some attendings was great because it gave a more clear example of the "abuse" that is being talked about. Could someone please post a few more specifics please on the problems there?

I feel bad that all of you have to go through this as our incoming MD class was led to believe the whole training process of doctors has vastly improved....

Oh - ArrogantSurgeon - I don't want any responses from you...

goooooober · Jul 17, 2003

Brandon, arrogant surgeon much reminds me of security gaurds. They know they are not cops, but they try really really hard to act like one. They use all the right words, such as freeze, you are under arrest, you have the right to .... and of course, have you been drinking sir. However, they use these phrases wearing the wrong badge. Thus, they often look and sound like an idiot. arrogant surgeon is nothing more than a wannabe. He goes through the act of a surgeon, as though he is one. Yet, often, like the security gaurd, he sounds and most likely looks like an idiot. One can only feel pitty towards such a pathetic creature. Peace.

Brandon · Jul 17, 2003

Goooober, I agree completely which is why I'm not interested in his input. I think the previous guys have done a pretty thorough job of looking at his "credentials" by his previous posts throughout this forum. I also question whether he's even a med student. In any case, can anybody give more specifics to the U of C problems? I keep reading that it has lots, but not alot of specifics. I'm not sure if it was listed in the previous thread that was "censored" and deleted, but I'd be interested to hear them. Hopefully they won't get censored this time around.

Thanks in advance!

Brandon · Jul 20, 2003

Nobody??

ArrogantSurgeon · Jul 21, 2003

Originally posted by Brandon
Nobody??

That's what I thought.

Some people on here *claim* to be all knowldegable about U of C and all its *supposed* abuses and such, but when you ask them objective questions (like I have in the past) that anybody in the program or familiarity with it should know, then they shut up real quick.

pjr · Jul 21, 2003

Phone number for surgery RRC:

312 755 5047 or 5494.

spring newsletter for surgery rrc (source for phone number)

http://www.acgme.org/RRCNews_archive/Surg_Spring03.pdf

when i called to ask them about supposed problems/action with U of C (not identifying myself as a u of c resident), the response was that they had no idea what i was talking about.

i'm not sure what people are really talking about in this forum (i look at it about once every couple of weeks), but anyone who wants some info about the u of c program, please feel free to email me at

[email protected]

disclaimer: i'm one of the general surgery chief residents, and apma77 or markmd (can't remember which, but it doesn't really matter) has referred to me in the past as a "scumbag".

good luck to all,

pete

droliver · Jul 21, 2003

I've also asked a recent president of the ABS & current RRC board member who said he had no idea what I was talking about in re. to UofC being targerted

Brandon · Jul 21, 2003

Thanks guys! It'll take awhile for me to read through all the info on the PDF file. But very interesting.

PJR - I'll have to email you regarding some of the concerns there as I am still very interested in knowing what really is happening. Thanks a lot to everybody for sharing their experiences!

gosh · Jul 22, 2003

ok, here is my take on the U of C surgery program. I completed a sub I in that department and was the recipient of verbal outlashes many times. What irks me most is that there is so much cover up and that members of the department went out to put me down with racial epithets. I was also told that girls should not go for surgery, as we don't have the "strength" to put up with the boot camp that the trainee must go through to succeed.

I saw first hand the crap that goes on in the department. If you don't have a good enough record to get into "safer" programs, then your stuck with going here, but may the force be with you...you were warned by many!

P.S. I just heard rumors about RRC involvement but have NOTHING to substantiate that. But I do know that the RRC will never give any info about investigations of a program on the phone. Because there is SO much clammer from people coming out about the U of C program, all it takes is one phone call from one of these guys, and investigations begin. Take whatever you hear from certain residents with a grain of salt-there has been a move to cover up the ailments. BEST THING- is if you really want to go here, PLEASE do a rotation BEFORE applying. and see for yourself...

Brandon · Jul 22, 2003

Thank you gosh!

Your candid response helps me understand this whole situation much better. I've told some of my friends who were also under the impression that U of C was a good program. They're shocked as well. I'm not even sure I want to even rotate now through that program! But I will definitely pass on your advice of doing so before making a decision to attend.

Thanks again everybody. I think I've got the picture now! But feel free to keep venting because others who visit this site will definitely see the value in your comments. I know I have!

phil123 · Jul 23, 2003

Gosh is on the money. I've heard that attendings and residents there are trying to clean up the image to outsiders. There's just too much doubt about the workings of that program to chance your career on it.

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