FWIW Residency Expansion and Job Market Panel at ARRO Seminar

[deleted941485]

The salary for locums has fallen over the last 10 -20 years. It is now about 1200-1500/ day.

Falling for the same reason they are falling for new grads. There’s just too many of them chasing too few opportunities. But of-course, this will require years of study and maybe will result in a red journal article haha.

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[taserlaser]

I know 4 on that list that are fresh young grads looking for a living. Also have a look at the fellows in a month or so (not hard to compile a list). You'll find they are mostly American Grads this year.

Yup, and then they’ll be again competing with this year’s grads. Sorry class of 2020.

 

[medgator]

I wouldn't give much credence to locum availability as a predictor of the current job market, at least not today. The current crop of locums are mostly semi retired or retired mds rather than fresh young grads looking for a living.

And many of us are using them PRN for vacation coverage instead of hiring a fresh young grad to the practice.

I have at least 4-5 contacts in our general region for that purpose.

 

[medgator]

Falling for the same reason they are falling for new grads. There’s just too many of them chasing too few opportunities. But of-course, this will require years of study and maybe will result in a red journal article haha.

They will probably publish that right after the study showing how hypofx and sbrt ended up blunting the anticipated demand for RO in prior flawed studies

 

[xrthopeful]

Falling for the same reason they are falling for new grads. There’s just too many of them chasing too few opportunities. But of-course, this will require years of study and maybe will result in a red journal article haha.

I mean is it falling for new grads? What about the terry wall trend shown here a few weeks ago?

 

[deleted941485]

I mean is it falling for new grads? What about the terry wall trend shown here a few weeks ago?

What terry wall trend? I bet its increasing only nominally but when adjusted for inflation is probably going down.

 

[Sheldor]

The hyperbole in this thread is a little off the charts. One can express concern about the future of our field long term if we keep over training people without going full sky is falling. In 10 years when a current M1 finished rad onc residency will they need to re-train? I have no idea. But suggesting that in the next few years it would be more financially viable to retrain for a 2020 grad rather than working making 300k+ starting is a little disingenuous. Also, by all accounts 2020 grads are in luck because the market this year is fantastic. I haven't seen so many ASTRO job postings in years. I have friends hiring for great partnership track positions who are getting <20 applications and even those many aren't serious. Seems like its a buyers marker for applicants this year. (At least more so than the last few years.)

 

[xrthopeful]

Last year was a pretty good market too.

 

[deleted941485]

The hyperbole in this thread is a little off the charts. One can express concern about the future of our field long term if we keep over training people without going full sky is falling. In 10 years when a current M1 finished rad onc residency will they need to re-train? I have no idea. But suggesting that in the next few years it would be more financially viable to retrain for a 2020 grad rather than working making 300k+ starting is a little disingenuous. Also, by all accounts 2020 grads are in luck because the market this year is fantastic. I haven't seen so many ASTRO job postings in years. I have friends hiring for great partnership track positions who are getting <20 applications and even those many aren't serious. Seems like its a buyers marker for applicants this year. (At least more so than the last few years.)

I’m sure it’s great for the guys and gals graduating from MDA and the Joint Center. I’m sure he doors are wide open.

For the great unwashed, That’s another story.

Our Dept got 25 CVs in the last 3 months and were not even hiring.

 

[medgator]

Last year was a pretty good market too.

Depends on where you were looking and what type of practice model.

Any proof to backup that generalized statement?

 

[deleted941485]

Depends on where you were looking and what type of practice model.

I’m sure it’s always a banner year for the academic medical center. Always a satellite to cover in some forsaken part of the system.

Just got a phone call for locums can’t hang up the phone last enough.

 

[RickyScott]

Last year was a pretty good market too.

Wrong. No, last year was not pretty good. It must be really inconvenient to your point of view that the head of RRC is stating that we have a serious problem, as did other presentations at ASTRO. I know of programs where residents had to locums. It was posted here. Clearly your intent is to mislead.

 

[xrthopeful]

Wrong. No, last year was not pretty good. It must be really inconvenient to your point of view that the head of RRC is stating that we have a serious problem, as did other presentations at ASTRO. I know of programs where residents had to locums. It was posted here. Clearly your intent is to mislead.

I’m literally the one who said here it was good that Neha Vapiwala said what she said. Learn your facts or know your place.

That doesn’t change the fact that the market was decent last year and sounds like decent this year too.

 

[medgator]

That doesn’t change the fact that the market was decent last year and sounds like decent this year too.

Proof? Let me know when a decent partnership track position shows up in a nice city in FL, CA or TX shows up. Haven't seen one in awhile. But since you seem to know everything RO, please feel free to share with the rest of us.

 

[Grubbe-a-dub-dub]

The market was horrible last year...where are people getting that it was any good? The ASTRO postings should not be the indicator - I see many repeat postings from years prior.

 

[xrthopeful]

Proof? Let me know when a decent partnership track position shows up in a nice city in FL, CA or TX shows up. Haven't seen one in awhile. But since you seem to know everything RO, please feel free to share with the rest of us.

multiple posts including the moderator saying market seems good this year. There's no such thing as 'proof'.

okay, market sucks this year, whatever. doesn't really matter what anyone says, you don't really care.

 

[deleted1002574]

Proof? Let me know when a decent partnership track position shows up in a nice city in FL, CA or TX shows up. Haven't seen one in awhile. But since you seem to know everything RO, please feel free to share with the rest of us.

They have. Those groups don't post. SERO ain't shrinking, boss. I doubt you've seen an ad on ASTRO from SERO, Sacramento, ROC in Chicago, Princeton, INOVA, etc. in years. They have no need to advertise.

That doesn't = the market is great. It's just that "good partnership track" positions are not often listed, good market or bad.

 

[xrthopeful]

Both ROC and INOVA did post last year to be fair

 

[TDDro]

It's just that "good partnership track" positions are not often listed, good market or bad

QFT. I know several who took non-advertised partner jobs in desirable places.

 

[medgator]

They have. Those groups don't post. SERO ain't shrinking, boss. I doubt you've seen an ad on ASTRO from SERO, Sacramento, ROC in Chicago, Princeton, INOVA, etc. in years. They have no need to advertise.

That doesn't = the market is great. It's just that "good partnership track" positions are not often listed, good market or bad.

Completely agree. But back when the market was better/healthier, you would in fact see *some* of those postings on ASTRO a decade ago.

I was hired through connections and I know when it comes time for us to hire in the future, we won't need an ASTRO listing to get qualified candidates with connections to the area. It doesn't change the fact that the ASTRO listings are becoming even less high yield as time goes on. These days, employers are pretty much going to post to ASTRO when their protocols dictate or when they can't find anyone internally or through connections.

 

[deleted1002574]

Both ROC and INOVA did post last year to be fair

To be FAIRRRRRR

 

[evilbooyaa]

I felt the market was reasonable from an ASTRO perspective this year but who knows - if they all have internal candidates and aren't seriously considering an ASTRO interviewee then does it matter? I have to remind myself to not get excited about ASTRO interviews until they turn into on-site interviews, and eventually, into job offers.

 

[deleted941485]

I felt the market was reasonable from an ASTRO perspective this year but who knows - if they all have internal candidates and aren't seriously considering an ASTRO interviewee then does it matter? I have to remind myself to not get excited about ASTRO interviews until they turn into on-site interviews, and eventually, into job offers.

My guess it people who have been raised on these forums last couple years are scared and blanket applied hence an increase in the number of interviews.

Just like the boards last year, people overcompensated by studying far more than last year.

Will that result in better job placement...maybe. Does that mean there are more job offerings probably not.

 

[xrthopeful]

I felt the market was reasonable from an ASTRO perspective this year but who knows - if they all have internal candidates and aren't seriously considering an ASTRO interviewee then does it matter? I have to remind myself to not get excited about ASTRO interviews until they turn into on-site interviews, and eventually, into job offers.

very important to remember this. the post-ASTRO high is real.

 

[deleted774703]

Ppl put too much stock on ASTRO interviews.

Call me when you get actual offers

 

[seper]

Some of these are full-time employed folks wanting to make extra $ during their hospital-paid vacation week. I know 3 guys who've done it.

Don't know if they're "on the street" or not but there's a sh**-ton of folks, evidently, "pounding the pavement" for locums work these days. I can neither confirm nor deny whether said pavement is possibly street associated.
*googly eyes emoji*

 

[medgator]

Some of these are full-time employed folks wanting to make extra $ during their hospital-paid vacation week. I know 3 guys who've done it.

And I know plenty who are retired and do it for spending money when they aren't traveling. 2 myself, whom we use personally who also contract with the locums companies

 

[deleted941485]

And I know plenty who are retired and do it for spending money when they aren't traveling. 2 myself, whom we use personally who also contract with the locums companies

Definitely a glut of those >65 boomers topping off their retirement accounts. I guess they figured out that no amount of money will every be enough for them

 

[deleted1002574]

Definitely a glut of those >65 boomers topping off their retirement accounts. I guess they figured out that no amount of money will every be enough for them

Oh okay. How much is the established amount that’s enough? I’ll let my financial advisor know when we should stop.

(Premise again: older rad ones are money grubbing slime balls)

 

[deleted941485]

Oh okay. How much is the established amount that’s enough? I’ll let my financial advisor know when we should stop.

(Premise again: older rad ones are money grubbing slime balls)

Hey everybody has a number...but you’ll always be a money grubbing slime ball to somebody.

I don’t blame them for sucking at the teet for as long as they have a pulse.

 

[seper]

For a physician, it's enough when his/her spouse says that it is.

 

[medgator]

Oh okay. How much is the established amount that’s enough? I’ll let my financial advisor know when we should stop.

(Premise again: older rad ones are money grubbing slime balls)

TBH, many of them having questionable igrt imrt skills and that's being charitable in some cases. That's probably what rubs many of the more recently trained folks the wrong way.

But the system is such that they still have a place to benefit from it

 

[medgator]

If my eyes could roll any further into the back of my head, I would never find them and I've have a constant marble-like rattle in the back of my head from the dislodged orbital contents.

I guess what you are saying is that all rad oncs that happen to be a certain age are responsible for the death of the field, and also need to check in with you wrt how much money they need to have to be able to continue working, and tangentially (maybe directly?) responsible for climate change.

Put this in the FAQ!!

Demographically speaking he isn't totally off the mark, at least regarding cc. But yes the pp boomers in RO aren't responsible for the reckless actions perpetrated by academic RO boomers

 

[deleted956486]

I don't think we need to bring the hectoring of a teenage communist into our discussion.

Eh...communist, socialist, capitalist, terrorist, rap artist, barista. Call it what you want. Point is, this parallels what we are seeing in other places. A subgroup of the older generation destroying the future for the majority of the younger generation (I say majority because there is always a protected group).

 

[medgator]

Oh I get what you’re saying. I just disagree with “A subgroup of the older generation destroying the future for the majority of the younger generation” in as strong of terms as is possible.

You're saying it is most of them?

 

[deleted956486]

I don't think it's worth getting into a back-and-forth about our carbon-based economy and climate change.

I will say, as much as I disagree with OTN, it is nice to have a forum where we can do that. RadOnc has become a specialty where dissent or a difference of opinion is not allowed in public.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

RadOnc has become a specialty where dissent or a difference of opinion is not allowed in public.

Umm..i guess you didn't attend ASTRO where differences of opinion were evident in many public fora.

 

[scarbrtj]

The salary for locums has fallen over the last 10 -20 years. It is now about 1200-1500/ day.

I just got a text today for medical oncology locums offering $2800/day.
(The need was "ongoing," so potentially a ~$670K/year job for the aspiring med onc.)
Rad oncs do not achieve that $/day in the US, currently, I don't think.

 

[medgator]

I just got a text today for medical oncology locums offering $2800/day.
(The need was "ongoing," so potentially a ~$670K/year job for the aspiring med onc.)
Rad oncs do not achieve that $/day in the US, currently, I don't think.

And they can use NPs to cover chemo in a freestanding setting!

 

[deleted774703]

I just got a text today for medical oncology locums offering $2800/day.
(The need was "ongoing," so potentially a ~$670K/year job for the aspiring med onc.)
Rad oncs do not achieve that $/day in the US, currently, I don't think.

For sure we don’t get that cash regularly anymore but many problems with comparing directly

1) this job assumes the need will nvr go out 2) we don’t know where this is located

Much of the unhappiness with radonc as a field is that we aren’t getting high paying jobs in good areas

If this locums med onc job is in the boonies then who cares the salary.

 

[deleted956486]

For sure we don’t get that cash regularly anymore but many problems with comparing directly

1) this job assumes the need will nvr go out 2) we don’t know where this is located

Much of the unhappiness with radonc as a field is that we aren’t getting high paying jobs in good areas

If this locums med onc job is in the boonies then who cares the salary.

Eh, I disagree. He can work half the month, live in Thailand (or anywhere) the other half (or any other fraction), and still be really well financially.

 

[scarbrtj]

Eh, I disagree. He can work half the month, live in Thailand (or anywhere) the other half (or any other fraction), and still be really well financially.

He/she would be doing just as well financially as the locums rad onc while only working exactly half as much. That's pretty... uh...

 

[deleted774703]

Eh, I disagree. He can work half the month, live in Thailand (or anywhere) the other half (or any other fraction), and still be really well financially.

That’s assuming this job at this rate will be around indefinitely...

More likely that the job will be filled by someone else in locums while you’re drinking on the beach in Phuket

 

[deleted956486]

He/she would be doing just as well financially as the locums rad onc while only working exactly half as much. That's pretty... uh...

Probably a "He." There's been a recent surge in women entering Rad Onc thanks to recent initiatives by our leaders and all the satellite opportunities. Just a hunch, but 'm pretty sure they're switching to Rad Onc from Med Onc cause #RadoncCrocks ;-)

 

[deleted956486]

That’s assuming this job at this rate will be around indefinitely...

More likely that the job will be filled by someone else in locums while you’re drinking on the beach in Phuket

Well if that's true, phuket I'm a radonc.

 

[deleted774703]

Probably a "He." There's been a recent surge in women entering Rad Onc thanks to recent initiatives by our leaders and all the satellite opportunities. Just a hunch, but 'm pretty sure they're switching to Rad Onc from Med Onc cause #RadoncCrocks ;-)

The #radoncrocks movement is the lamest and simultaneously hilarious (unintentional) movement I’ve ever seen

What grown person can say rad Onc rocks with a straight face

 

[evilbooyaa]

Can a mod please cut the global warming debate ? This is so completely off topic.

Regardless of your stance on global warming (and I agree it needs to be addressed), an unsustainable doubling of the labor supply in a very narrow field of employment will affect every radonc’s life far more than global warming will - even if you live in FL.

QFT.

This forum is not the place to discuss climate change. Multiple posts have been deleted, and there was collateral damage. Next person to say 'Climate Change' is getting pistol whipped (warned).

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Shenanigans!

 

[deleted774703]

More SDN whining on Twitter

 

[deleted774703]

More SDN whining on Twitter

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