Future outlook of PM&R

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ChicagoKid

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I am a M3 trying to decide between Family and PM&R. I was recently told that if I want to go into PM&R then I would have to be really open minded to moving my family because job opportunities are becoming scarce, especially in the midwest. I would really like to stay in the midwest, especially Chicagoland surrounding areas. I was wondering for those of you with experience, is this true for people without fellowship training? Also, what is the general starting salary for a general physiatrist? Online information tends to be all over the place. If you have any suggestions for online reliable resources, please let me know.

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hey chi kid
I am a 2nd year resident at an easy coast school but I have a 4th year resident who is from the Midwest. Missouri actually. She has told me that she is getting offers for inpatient and outpatient for between 200 and 240 starting. From what I have seen and heard the market is actually the best now in the Midwest. Most people want to be on the coasts. look up job listings on AAPMR or practicelink. There are tons of jobs in the Midwest Right now. Maybe Not in 6 years. Who knows? I also thought about family med but decided I would like to be an expert at something and not a whipping boy for the entire field of Medicine. Good luck to you. We just did our rank list this week. Things are getting tough for those applying.
 
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I haven't heard of residents having much difficulty finding jobs. But the issue is going to be there are just fewer PM&R jobs in any given area. With FM, considering both the shortage of FM docs and the fact that the population just needs more FM docs per x number of people, you can pretty much pick and choose where you want to live/work.

I agree with the above poster that there are tons of PM&R jobs in the Midwest--I'm not sure why someone told you otherwise. Most of the the opportunities I've been seeing listed are in the Midwest (and the South). Generally less desirable area = more jobs (and while everyone wants to live and work in NYC or the West Coast, most people usually don't want to work in the Midwest unless they're from the Midwest). Certainly Chicago will be more competitive because it's the big city, but it partially makes up for that by offering more job opportunities due to it's higher population. I don't think I'd have any problem getting a job in or within 2hrs of Chicago if that was what I wanted.

The starting salaries I've been hearing from senior residents are usually ~$200-230k for private practice/community hospitals, ~$175k or so for the VA, and ~$160k for academic jobs.
 
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I would really like to stay in the midwest, especially Chicagoland surrounding areas.

From what I've heard, plenty of jobs in the midwest, but Chicago proper is not a great market. Between the 5 programs, lotta new grads every year. I do hear of jobs, but they don't sound that great. As you get further from downtown Chicago, there are more opportunities/better pay.
 
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Thanks guys, I appreciate the input. Honestly, I want to be in suburbs. It nice knowing the job market is strong.
 
Medscape: Medscape Access

I don’t know how accurate it is...but the highlights:
- Average salary per year $269,000
- Salaries for PM&R are up 16% over the past three years, the 3rd highest increase by specialty of that time span
-North Central and Southwest are the regions best compensated, with the Northeast and Southwest being the worst
- Move to Indiana...they’re rich. Move away from Maryland...they’re poor
- PM&R physicians feel the worst compensated compared to every other profession
 
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In your opinion as a PM&R resident and through your conversations in the field, do you think these numbers seem to be somewhat true?

Tough to know the statistic significance of the numbers. It looks like maybe 200-300 PM&R docs performed the survey. There is no subspecialties listed, so it probably includes Pain. Since Pain, as least for now, typically makes more than the other PM&R physicians, I think that it’s safe to assume that non-Pain PM&R docs make less than $269,000 on average based on that report. I think that is on par with the other compensation calculators out there.

I’ve heard that for a variety of reasons, the Midwest and Southeast are the most competitive for salary. So I think that checks out.

I read other reports about burnout being very high in PM&R...so I also buy that many physicians think that they should be making more.
 
Thoughts on the compensation report provided by AAPM&R compared to medscape? Interestingly, 269K is what has been reported for CNS rehabilitation and is the same as what medscape reported. Do these reports include benefits as well?
 

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This is kind of a bummer. One of perks of the field was supposed to be average pay but gratifying work. I’m surprised we rank near the top on feeling poorly compensated and burned out, I would have guessed many other fields.
 
do the pm&r docs at your institution feels like they're burning out and should be making more?? and what is the reason behind all that?

I live ina medical utopia. It's paradise and quite frankly a fantasy world. We also are well competitively compensated with excellent support staff with near flawless business model. I can't speak for anyone other than me...but I'd imagine that we have a lower rate of burnout than many places. But the work can be tough. You are dealing with complex medical patients, patients with chronic pain, patients with personality disorder...it can be very rewarding but it also can be emotionally exhausting, even with the perfect setup. PM&R absolutely can be the dumping ground for patients who have nobody else willing to take care of them. We are also in an interesting predicament with opiates...which puts stress on the situation even further. I also think that PM&R tends to attract certain people who go into the specialty for the wrong reasons. It has a reputation of "plenty of money and relaxation", when in reality...you typically don't get both. The specialty is more laid back...the people tend to be more down to earth...but you really need to grind to make good money in PM&R. I think that PM&R mind get the people who wanted Derm (for the same reasons as above), and didn't have the scores.

I love PM&R and I wouldn't have done anything different...and that would very likely still be true if I wasn't training at the Disneyland for Physicians. But truthfully, all it takes is one patient to completely wreck your day, and PM&R tends to have MORE of those types of patients than just about every other specialty. You really have to love it, find satisfaction in trying to build hope in the hopeless, and have to be patient enough to work your way through the difficult patients.
 
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I live ina medical utopia. It's paradise and quite frankly a fantasy world. We also are well competitively compensated with excellent support staff with near flawless business model. I can't speak for anyone other than me...but I'd imagine that we have a lower rate of burnout than many places. But the work can be tough. You are dealing with complex medical patients, patients with chronic pain, patients with personality disorder...it can be very rewarding but it also can be emotionally exhausting, even with the perfect setup. PM&R absolutely can be the dumping ground for patients who have nobody else willing to take care of them. We are also in an interesting predicament with opiates...which puts stress on the situation even further. I also think that PM&R tends to attract certain people who go into the specialty for the wrong reasons. It has a reputation of "plenty of money and relaxation", when in reality...you typically don't get both. The specialty is more laid back...the people tend to be more down to earth...but you really need to grind to make good money in PM&R. I think that PM&R mind get the people who wanted Derm (for the same reasons as above), and didn't have the scores.

I love PM&R and I wouldn't have done anything different...and that would very likely still be true if I wasn't training at the Disneyland for Physicians. But truthfully, all it takes is one patient to completely wreck your day, and PM&R tends to have MORE of those types of patients than just about every other specialty. You really have to love it, find satisfaction in trying to build hope in the hopeless, and have to be patient enough to work your way through the difficult patients.


I live ina medical utopia. It's paradise and quite frankly a fantasy world. We also are well competitively compensated with excellent support staff with near flawless business model. I can't speak for anyone other than me...but I'd imagine that we have a lower rate of burnout than many places. But the work can be tough. You are dealing with complex medical patients, patients with chronic pain, patients with personality disorder...it can be very rewarding but it also can be emotionally exhausting, even with the perfect setup. PM&R absolutely can be the dumping ground for patients who have nobody else willing to take care of them. We are also in an interesting predicament with opiates...which puts stress on the situation even further. I also think that PM&R tends to attract certain people who go into the specialty for the wrong reasons. It has a reputation of "plenty of money and relaxation", when in reality...you typically don't get both. The specialty is more laid back...the people tend to be more down to earth...but you really need to grind to make good money in PM&R. I think that PM&R mind get the people who wanted Derm (for the same reasons as above), and didn't have the scores.

I love PM&R and I wouldn't have done anything different...and that would very likely still be true if I wasn't training at the Disneyland for Physicians. But truthfully, all it takes is one patient to completely wreck your day, and PM&R tends to have MORE of those types of patients than just about every other specialty. You really have to love it, find satisfaction in trying to build hope in the hopeless, and have to be patient enough to work your way through the difficult patients.

We are somewhat underpaid - many primary care docs have seen their incomes rise but ours has not risen to the same extent which is disappointing. Sure you can make quite a bit if you are driven and get into a number of things - med directorship, msk, pain, etc. But we definitely need better leadership to make our specialty stronger!
i
 
do you think the medscape compensation report was not reflective of the average pay of PM&R physicians? I understand the survey is always going to at least a little bias.

I don’t know honestly - it’s hard to say as it’s not clear what the different docs filling it out do in terms of inpt, output, procedures, etc
 
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Keep in mind that in regards to burnout, people who go into PM&R tend to value lifestyle and time off. It could be that the reality of practicing PM&R, although less demanding than many of the other specialties, is just not meeting the expectations for those who claim burnout. They would probably be just as, if not more burned out, in any of the other specialties that are less lifestyle friendly.
 
This is definitely true. I would say most people who go into PM&R do want a relaxed lifestyle -myself included so if 7 or 8 - 4 or 5pm goes beyond that, I certainly would consider that burnout.
 
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730 to 330 M-F. No weekends, no call. Outpatient spine and MSK. Surgeries when I want to do them. SCS and kypho.
I am fairly compensated to some, underpaid compared to private practice, and overpaid compared to those making less than me. I work in the SE for a large hospital system.
 
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Well but again you do outpatient pain and spine? Vast majority of PM&R docs don't do pain/spine. I have to take week call and weekend call for my gig. Because I am in a major metro area in the Midwest I also get less benefits than in other places (ex - I don't have 401k from my employer). Most places I interviewed in the same area did not offer 401k, sign on, etc. So not as easy if you are not doing pain or MSK. Also a lot of places are wanting fellowship for MSK - which I don't personally feel is needed.

730 to 330 M-F. No weekends, no call. Outpatient spine and MSK. Surgeries when I want to do them. SCS and kypho.
I am fairly compensated to some, underpaid compared to private practice, and overpaid compared to those making less than me. I work in the SE for a large hospital system.
 
Well but again you do outpatient pain and spine? Vast majority of PM&R docs don't do pain/spine. I have to take week call and weekend call for my gig. Because I am in a major metro area in the Midwest I also get less benefits than in other places (ex - I don't have 401k from my employer). Most places I interviewed in the same area did not offer 401k, sign on, etc. So not as easy if you are not doing pain or MSK. Also a lot of places are wanting fellowship for MSK - which I don't personally feel is needed.

What do you offer that a NP working for a Neurologist cannot do? Speaking as a hospital administrator...
 
What do you offer that a NP working for a Neurologist cannot do? Speaking as a hospital administrator...
I have no idea what you are talking about. And I’m working for a private group not directly a hospital. I offer what every other PM&R physician offers, just like what every other physician in any other specialty offers - training akin to their specialty. And I’m not a neurologist. Not sure what you are asking or suggesting.
You should refer to what the typical experience for the specialty is - not what your specific experience is. As mentioned most PM&R docs don’t do pain.
 
What do you offer that a NP working for a Neurologist cannot do? Speaking as a hospital administrator...

I’m a people person!!!!

Sorry...couldn’t help myself
 
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I have no idea what you are talking about. And I’m working for a private group not directly a hospital. I offer what every other PM&R physician offers, just like what every other physician in any other specialty offers - training akin to their specialty. And I’m not a neurologist. Not sure what you are asking or suggesting.
You should refer to what the typical experience for the specialty is - not what your specific experience is. As mentioned most PM&R docs don’t do pain.
Most current PMR doctors don’t practice pain or MSK but most recent grads do more than half my graduating class did Pain/Spine/Sports fellowship. outpatient MSK represent growth in PMR and the procedure provide value to employers or income in a group. I watched as my Program Rusk/NYU cut there census in half during my residency and attending scramble to start outpatient clinic because of demishing inpatient bed and consults. Unless you have an academic interest inpatient rehabs gold,silver and Bronze Age is over. Outpatient your value is procedures and capturing patient that may need surgery, MRI and PT in there health care system or in you practice
 
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