Frats and cheating

[rphello]

If you had reported it to the ACPE or Board of Pharmacy, then the school would have no choice but to go forward with the expulsion.

Don't be a fool. Do you think the Board of Pharmacy will help you with ethical issues when you get out of school? No, they will ignore you and condemn you as a snitch.

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[iPLEDGE]

Don't be a dumb dummy, everyone does it so it must be okay. Success is about seizing opportunities and crushing the foolish and weak.

You are absolutely right. You are seizing the day and crushing your competitors by getting them into huge trouble. Don't feel bad for them. They deserve it.

 

[rphello]

No.

Don't be a dumb dummy, everyone is doing it.

 

[iPLEDGE]

Don't be a fool. Do you think the Board of Pharmacy will help you with ethical issues when you get out of school? No, they will ignore you and condemn you as a snitch.

You can always be an anonymous snitch.

 

[rphello]

You can always be an anonymous snitch.

But where's the glory in that? I'm joking around because it didn't matter when I was in school. There were accusations every test, but no one was punished. We had an honor council, but they never did anything.

 

[iPLEDGE]

But where's the glory in that? I'm joking around because it didn't matter when I was in school. There were accusations every test, but no one was punished. We had an honor council, but they never did anything.

That's why you take it up with the ACPE and Board of Pharmacy. The school will have no choice but to take actions. It kinda made my day.

 

[type b pharmD]

there are always going to be people in this world who have some kind of advantage over you. it's more worth your time to gain an advantage than to worry about whether or not others are. so why not spend the energy it takes to get upset at it to study more on your own.. surely you can accomplish the same grades as they do and end up coming out ahead knowledge wise.. that is a true win! or, just find some other way to win, ie join them. nobody ever said life was fair. Im not saying i would cheat, but say if you belonged to one of those frats you're complaining about, you'd probably be taking advantage of the opportunity , you know? im just saying, people are gonna do it one way or another, and they're still gonna come out okay so either beat them or join them. and regardless of how you personally feel about it, im not sure society looks at snitchers as being any better than cheaters.

 

[iPLEDGE]

it's more worth your time to gain an advantage than to worry about whether or not others are. so why not spend the energy it takes to get upset at it to study more on your own.. surely you can accomplish the same grades as they do and end up coming out ahead knowledge wise

"I am going to work harder than them" is the loser's way of thinking. I barely had to put in any effort to get rid of the people who cheated. No one dare to cheat after that. The curve dropped. My grades went up. I had more time to go out and work ($$$$), and nobody know I was the one who reported them.

 

[confettiflyer]

If you had reported it to the ACPE or Board of Pharmacy, then the school would have no choice but to go forward with the expulsion.

lol

 

[fhx06]

"I am going to work harder than them" is the loser's way of thinking. I barely had to put in any effort to get rid of the people who cheated. No one dare to cheat after that. The curve dropped. My grades went up. I had more time to go out and work ($$$$), and nobody know I was the one who reported them.

I hope you didn't leave any identifying remarks about yourself on SDN.

 

[LiveLoveFartRepeat]

If you are fine with cheating, then I am fine with being a snitch. Why should I have to study harder because you need to cheat?

I have to confess that I was guilty of being passive about it. I did not have your guts to do something about it, when I witnessed it. It's quite interesting actually because if one asked me why; I could not answer the question.

May be a mixture of "it's none of my business" and also "how do I prove it"?. Some people that I've had some study sessions with, had the reputation of having the" hot stuff" around exams time. They never offered to share; I never asked. Was I tempted around a pretty hard therapeutic section YES!!!!. But never had the gut to ask, ; and was to afraid to risk everything my parents and family have invested in me over cheathing.
With time, I learned that I was doing better than that group of students anyway..how did I feel about it..

 

[RutgersEMSOP10]

First of all, I never said I snitched on anyone. I was just making the point that just because someone thinks a rule is dumb doesn't necessarily mean there are no consequeces if they break it. I think that marijuana being illegal is dumb, I think graduated income taxes are dumb - there is plenty that I could do to beak these dumb laws, but if I am caught I still get in trouble. I don't get off just because I thought they were dumb. I made this remark because the consensus seemed to be that although sharing materials from years past may be against the rules, it is a stupid rule so people don't follow it. If that is your thought process, be able to defend it if caught. That is all.

Also, I don't really care what anyone else does. Therapeutics courses at RU aren't curved anyway. Even if they were, I'm sure my grades would be just fine.

 

[eightball]

pharmacy is a professional program.

who cares what others do?

Anyone who is smart enough to be accepted in one of the programs is smart enough to get through it, just by studying and discipline, irregardless of what the "frats" are doing.

Cheating off old exams or quizzes is not really cheating since the instructors are supposed to but not obligated to vary test material from year to year.

OP, just pledge for a frat.

I personally did not pledge, I see no need. I was gunneristic in my undergrad school and graduated summa with double majors. I toned down quite a bit since. Now all I have to do is breath, and cruise through pharmacy school with something no less than a 3.3. (for scholarship reasons) Good life I tell ya.

 

[powertoold]

pharmacy is a professional program.

who cares what others do?

Anyone who is smart enough to be accepted in one of the programs is smart.. irregardless

Cheating off old exams or quizzes is not really cheating since the instructors are supposed to but not obligated to vary test material from year to year.

OP, just pledge for a frat.

Ya, right? Pharmacy is a profession. Who cares what people do in our profession? Amirite?

Also, it's regardless. Irregardless ain't no word.

Finally, "just pledge for a frat" isn't a solution. I'm not sure why people are even considering it, but yes, the OP is being unreasonable for focusing on frats when others "cheat" also.

Blah, this thread is going to make me turn to the dark side, which is to not use old material I will have to look up the honesty policy on it.

 

[charfdorn]

Why is it that no one has brought up the most relevant point on the subject?

If you cheat on the test, you don't learn the material. You're not going to get a copy of the NAPLEX in advance. Cheating might throw the curve but it doesn't make the cheaters better pharmacists or the honest students worse pharmacists. That cheating will catch up to them some day, and your honest 2.7 GPA will suddenly mean nothing once you have your first pharmacy job. Employers *DON'T CARE* about GPAs.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

There will always be cheating but lets admit it. For most of the stuff that we can cheat for in pharmacy, we will probably forget it or it will be repeated so much that sooner or later, we would know it. Hence it is not really a big deal.

 

[Hendlefe]

I'm surprised that there are so many supporters to both sides of the argument. The fact is, if you have an old exam that is not readily available to classmates, then you have an advantage for the midterm. Is that fair? I guess it doesn't matter what you and I think because we have to ask the professor: do you think it is fair that some students have your old exam and some don't; do you consider this cheating?
You guys should pop that question to your teacher and see how they respond.

 

[nikkai]

I'll give you a dollar if you cheat on the NAPLEX.

 

[eightball]

Ya, right? Pharmacy is a profession. Who cares what people do in our profession? Amirite?

Also, it's regardless. Irregardless ain't no word.

Finally, "just pledge for a frat" isn't a solution. I'm not sure why people are even considering it, but yes, the OP is being unreasonable for focusing on frats when others "cheat" also.

Blah, this thread is going to make me turn to the dark side, which is to not use old material I will have to look up the honesty policy on it.

wow tiger, chill, at this rate, you will rupture something!

"cheating" will only get them so far. Do your thing, or just join them. Everyone's happy.

 

[powertoold]

"cheating" will only get them so far. Do your thing, or just join them. Everyone's happy.

So if one of your coworkers is doing something wrong, you would just do your thing and not talk to them or your manager about it? They would "only get so far" right? How is this different than "snitching" on a cheater?

This is pharmacy. We're all in this together.

 

[eightball]

So if one of your coworkers is doing something wrong, you would just do your thing and not talk to them or your manager about it? They would "only get so far" right? How is this different than "snitching" on a cheater?

This is pharmacy. We're all in this together.

define cheating in the context of this thread.

I give up

 

[powertoold]

define cheating in the context of this thread.

I give up

Sorry, I'm referring to cheating in general. Looking at old exams and material is a gray area. I agree that it's not fair for students who don't have the material, but then again, the students who don't have the material probably didn't try to ask around or look.

I remember when I was taking undergraduate biology. One of my professors had some practice questions on his website that were similar (not exact) to his test questions. I had an advantage over the other students who didn't see the questions, but I found them because I took the effort to look through his website.

When you get down to it, if your honesty policy prohibits looking at old exams or material, then you shouldn't do it

 

[charfdorn]

I'll give you a dollar if you cheat on the NAPLEX.

I'll let you know.

 

[Sparda29]

How hard is it to rewrite questions on a test? Around 50 questions, should take about an hour to rewrite it.

For example.

Which one of the following is a correct treatment option for this patient?
33 Year Old Male w/ Acute Bronchitis

A - Vancomycin
B - Penicillin
C - Nitrofurantoin
D. Levofloxacin


Next year's question.

Which one of the following is a correct treatment option for this patient?
17 Year Old Pregnant Female w/ Acute Bronchitis

A- Vancomycin
B - Azithromycin
C - Nitrofurantoin
D - Levofloxacin

 

[Sparda29]

What do you guys think about this and if this is cheating?

Back in undergraduate microbiology, I pretty much bombed the first exam. Then I was going through the online website that the textbook came in, and discovered that the professor was taking questions from the online website practice section and using them on the exams. I just studied those practice sections and aced the rest of the exams.

 

[rphello]

What do you guys think about this and if this is cheating?

Back in undergraduate microbiology, I pretty much bombed the first exam. Then I was going through the online website that the textbook came in, and discovered that the professor was taking questions from the online website practice section and using them on the exams. I just studied those practice sections and aced the rest of the exams.

It's only an offense if your instructor told you not to look at the website. If you shared the information with your classmates, then it would do wonders to disprove the dog eat dog world notion of academia.

I think one can find a multitude of ways to convince himself that cheating is not really cheating. It was rather cut and dry at my school. Every test we took had a cover page which stated that copying any portion of the test was prohibited. This policy was in place for years, but that didn't stop certain class members from obtaining the tests. On occasion one fraternity would have the test while the other did not. They certainly didn't share the test with the other fraternity. Even if both fraternities had the test, they wouldn't share with an outsider. I know because a friend who was not in a fraternity told me not to bother asking since they had shut him down.

I don't care what you might do in these situations, but don't convince yourself it's not dishonest. Bending the rules of morality is a slippery slope. We've all done it, but once you convince yourself you're not bending the rules, then you're lost.

 

[confettiflyer]

It's only an offense if your instructor told you not to look at the website.

Mm disagree...that info is technically public, it's like you telling me not to look at some random professor's webpage about medicinal biology. There are links in that textbook directing students to the supplemental website. If a professor tells you not to look at it, it's like telling you to not look at the "sample answers" in the back of the book.

However, if it were from the "instructor only" textbook that is only sent to professors, that's a different story.

 

[rphello]

Mm disagree...that info is technically public, it's like you telling me not to look at some random professor's webpage about medicinal biology. There are links in that textbook directing students to the supplemental website. If a professor tells you not to look at it, it's like telling you to not look at the "sample answers" in the back of the book.

However, if it were from the "instructor only" textbook that is only sent to professors, that's a different story.

Your dad tells you not to take a cookie from the cookie jar, which sits in the middle of the kitchen table and is therefore public knowledge. Are you permitted to disregard that order because the jar is not hidden from you?

You are told not to do something by a professor, who is the sole arbiter of your grade, and is in a position of authority while you're in the class. If the professor trusts you to not look at the site because that's where your test questions come from, then to look at the site is dishonest because it's a violation of trust. It doesn't matter if the entire class looks at the site against the professor's wishes, it's still dishonest.

 

[Sparda29]

Your dad tells you not to take a cookie from the cookie jar, which sits in the middle of the kitchen table and is therefore public knowledge. Are you permitted to disregard that order because the jar is not hidden from you?

You are told not to do something by a professor, who is the sole arbiter of your grade, and is in a position of authority while you're in the class. If the professor trusts you to not look at the site because that's where your test questions come from, then to look at the site is dishonest because it's a violation of trust. It doesn't matter if the entire class looks at the site against the professor's wishes, it's still dishonest.

Right, so the professor is going to require a certain textbook, and then force us not to use a feature that comes with the textbook?

 

[confettiflyer]

You are told not to do something by a professor, who is the sole arbiter of your grade, and is in a position of authority while you're in the class. If the professor trusts you to not look at the site because that's where your test questions come from, then to look at the site is dishonest because it's a violation of trust. It doesn't matter if the entire class looks at the site against the professor's wishes, it's still dishonest.

"Hey, you, students...don't look at chapter 23 in the book, it gives you too much information. Feel free to read chapter 21 and 23."

uhm...yeah, i don't care how powerful of a professor you are, that would be stupid. I'd look at chapter 23, I bought the book.

or better yet, "Don't stick the DVD that came with the textbook into your computer." hahah....stupid, don't tell me what to do with what I bought. The professor might as well tell me what highway to take to get to school or that I should pee sitting down.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

It's the professors fault for being a damned plagiarist in the first place.

A similar thing happened at WVU with the immunology instructor. The idiot gave us an assignment where he stole questions off of the Yale immunology website. The questions were so tough that he said we could use the internet. Well...we used the internet...and we found the questions verbatim at the Yale website because...you know...he told us we could use the internet. And, of course, when we all got the answers, he got pissed that we were all "plagiarists."

What a dummy.

God damn, I wish professors would write their own exams. New ones, each year. I'd like it if my tuition actually paid for something. It's like going to the theater expecting a live show and they put in a DVD showing the performance from 2003.

 

[confettiflyer]

Oh here's a real life example in my class....

Professor hands out a practice quiz to students that are in class, but refuses to give "extras" to students, even those who ask. It's obviously implied that the professor wants to "reward" the students who showed up to lecture, but doesn't explicitly say so.

Would it be cheating for, say, my significant other to share it with me? What if I were sick? What if the professor said explicitly that it was ONLY for those who were in class that day? What if I was just digging around my girlfriend's backpack while she was taking a ****, came across the quiz, and studied it? Did I just commit academic dishonesty?

Curious what some of you stiffs think, haha

 

[rphello]

Considering how your examples don't really make sense, I guess I can't argue anymore. If you buy the book (or tests from the fraternities) then you can do whatever you want regardless of what you're instructed to do? If that's your position, then like I said, one can find a multitude of mental gymnastics to make a dishonest act into an honest one.

WVU, your professor was a fool, since you were allowed to use the internet. Granted, there would not be an issue if the professor would create a new test every year, but we all know that isn't happening. There is a monstrous chasm between using all available resources and acting in a manner you were explicitly told not to. If you don't see this, then I'm sorry.

 

[confettiflyer]

Considering how your examples don't really make sense, I guess I can't argue anymore.

Sorry, I can't write at middle school level anymore. I'll try...

John buys book. Teacher tells John not to read parts of it. John reads it. Cheating?

 

[rphello]

Sorry, I can't write at middle school level anymore. I'll try...

John buys book. Teacher tells John not to read parts of it. John reads it. Cheating?

God instructs believer not to lie. Believer lies. Believer is dishonest because Believer disobeyed God.

Parent instructs child not to steal. Child steals. Child is dishonest because Child disobeyed explicit instructions from an authority.

It's a simple formula. You are told NOT to do something. You do it. It's wrong. Quite simple.

 

[PharmDstudent]

It's like going to the theater expecting a live show and they put in a DVD showing the performance from 2003.

We get our exams back, so there's no reason for one frat to have a copy and another frat not have a copy. I love the pharmacy chair for making them give back exams. He thinks that we should have our exams, and he's right!

 

[PharmDstudent]

God instructs believer not to lie. Believer lies. Believer is dishonest because Believer disobeyed God.

Parent instructs child not to steal. Child steals. Child is dishonest because Child disobeyed explicit instructions from an authority.

It's a simple formula. You are told NOT to do something. You do it. It's wrong. Quite simple.

What an idealist! Wake up and smell the coffee! Geez... or get a grip on reality.


ETA: God can't speak, parents aren't always right, and it's not even close to a simple formula. :/

 

[rphello]

What an idealist! Wake up and smell the coffee! Geez... or get a grip on reality.

I guess reality is a world where kids do whatever they want and the parents allow it. I guess reality is a world where there are no consequences if you don't get caught or if everyone else is doing it. Reality must be that place where you make the rules and everyone else follows you.

 

[confettiflyer]

Parent instructs child not to steal. Child steals. Child is dishonest because Child disobeyed explicit instructions from an authority.

Reread my example. No one is stealing anything. I own the book.

To me at least, it's pretty obvious that "anything goes" in terms of material/information that is available. If I choose to hire PharmDstudent as a personal tutor, use the DVD that came with the book, or use information from another institution's website, that's my prerogative as a student. No instructor has the right to "limit" what I do to learn the material.

When actual exam information is disseminated after an explicit warning not to do so, that's a different situation.

 

[Sparda29]

God instructs believer not to lie. Believer lies. Believer is dishonest because Believer disobeyed God.

Parent instructs child not to steal. Child steals. Child is dishonest because Child disobeyed explicit instructions from an authority.

It's a simple formula. You are told NOT to do something. You do it. It's wrong. Quite simple.

It's my right to read that part of the book. End of story.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

God instructs believer not to lie. Believer lies. Believer is dishonest because Believer disobeyed God.

Then maybe said deity shouldn't have wired the human brain to react in such a way if he didn't want it to happen. It's like playing Jenga and getting pissed off at the manufacturer that the tower collapsed at some point in the gam.e

 

[PharmDstudent]

I guess reality is a world where kids do whatever they want and the parents allow it. I guess reality is a world where there are no consequences if you don't get caught or if everyone else is doing it. Reality must be that place where you make the rules and everyone else follows you.

That's just gibberish, because it has nothing to do with any of the comments in this thread.

 

[rphello]

ETA: God can't speak, parents aren't always right, and it's not even close to a simple formula. :/

Well, religious people sure do think the Bible is the absolute word of God. Of course parents aren't always right, but from whom did you learn basic morality? Basic morality is a VERY simple formula. It says don't break the trust of a trustworthy person. I guess when you make the rules you can do whatever you want.

 

[confettiflyer]

Well, religious people sure do think the Bible is the absolute word of God. Of course parents aren't always right, but from whom did you learn basic morality? Basic morality is a VERY simple formula. It says don't break the trust of a trustworthy person. I guess when you make the rules you can do whatever you want.

lol

 

[rphello]

I guess I can't wrap my head around the idea that when an instructor asks you not to copy a test, but you do it anyway because you think the instructor is wrong, then you aren't dishonest. Sure, make up your own rules, but don't expect me to follow them.

 

[rphello]

That's just gibberish, because it has nothing to do with any of the comments in this thread.

Might want to re-read the thread, because it has everything to do with it. The professor says don't copy the test, but the student makes up their own rules and copies the test anyway. So, what doesn't apply?

 

[PharmDstudent]

I guess I can't wrap my head around the idea that when an instructor asks you not to copy a test, but you do it anyway because you think the instructor is wrong, then you aren't dishonest. Sure, make up your own rules, but don't expect me to follow them.

No one is saying that. They're saying that they can use online resources that are available, even if the mindless professor says not to access those sites, because there is no way to stop someone from accessing the site before they were told not to, i.e. I could access the website before the class even starts.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Might want to re-read the thread, because it has everything to do with it. The professor says don't copy the test, but the student makes up their own rules and copies the test anyway. So, what doesn't apply?

Your extrapolations do not apply to this thread or anyone but you. That's a given.

 

[confettiflyer]

i think i just won the internet because rphello hasn't addressed any of my other examples and agreed with me about the exam dissemination thing.

And usually when people start a) blaming the media b) talking about God/scripture/making biblical references, there's nothing else back there to throw out.

gimme my trophy!

 

[Praziquantel86]

Which one of the following is a correct treatment option for this patient?
33 Year Old Male w/ Acute Bronchitis

A - Vancomycin
B - Penicillin
C - Nitrofurantoin
D. Levofloxacin

Antibiotics aren't typically indicated for acute bronchitis in an uncomplicated patient.

As far as cheating goes, some of these scenarios are absolutely ridiculous. I don't care if the dean of my school tells me not to look in a textbook, I'm going to do it. Any reasonable person would. Professors know what information is readily accessible, if they choose to ignore that, it's their own damn fault. Y'all need to get off of your stupidly high horses.