Found a dead guy in our parking lot

[quickfeet]

I'm a recent med school grad scheduled to start residency in a few weeks. Two days ago, I was walking to the parking lot with my wife and kids and found a guy sprawled out in the middle of the parking lot near our car. I gave my kid over to my wife and told her to go back inside our apartment (we just moved into a supposedly safe area of town but we are right next to a fairly popular restaurant which we share a parking lot with).

Now when I saw the guy laying there staring up at the sky and not breathing, I hesitated for quite a long time, as the guy seemed to have some shiny object in one of his hands, which I thought was a firearm (turned out it was just a vaporizer/e-cigarette of some kind). Another bystander happened on the scene and I asked if she would call 9-11. I let 2-3 mins pass before walking up to him, and only very slowly. The guy was young maybe 30s or so. The skin on his hands were already mottled and he looked pretty pale. By the time I started doing chest compressions, it was 3-4 mins after I first spotted him laying there.

I feel like **** about it. Second-guessing myself if I was frozen over shock or just concerned he might've been holding a gun. But then upon thinking about it, that really didn't make sense. Why would it be a gun? He was clearly just laying there, not breathing, and I wonder if I would've acted quicker, would it have made a difference? I tend to think not, since it was an unwitnessed arrest and for all I know, he'd been down for quite some time. But I still am having second thoughts. EMS arrived ~10 mins or so after I found him and they did their thing for about a half-hour while I stood there talking to police. The EMS eventually spoke with the ER physician supervising them over the phone, and I guess they pronounced him dead at the scene. I wonder if I hadn't hesitated if it would've made a difference. I seriously doubt it since it was an unwitnessed arrest but still.

I don't even know why I created this thread. I'm not shocked or bothered about seeing a dead person as I've seen quite a few in med school. I guess I'm more ashamed at my own hesitation and wondering if it had more to do with thinking the guy had a gun in his hand and whether I was correct in not immediately bolting to his aid regardless of whatever I thought was in his hand.

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[EMDOC17]

You did nothing wrong. You have to make sure the scene is safe for you first. Nothing worse than jumping into a scene before you know what is going on or that you are not in danger. Even as a very close to attending I think this would still startle me if I just walked upon it. This guy also sounds like he was already dead. I may not have even started CPR on this guy if I was in your position unless he was still warm. Overall you acted appropriately and have nothing to feel bad about.

 

[Neuro25_]

If indeed there was a firearm in his hands and god forbid something much worse happened like, the loss of the life of an aspiring young physician with a young child and wife, then youre family would be devastated, wishing that you did exactly what your instincts told you to do, be cautious.

You did the right thing.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

He was dead. You can't make dead worse, no matter how badly you screw up. If the medics couldn't get him back, then at best you could have gotten him back with vegetable brain, but probably not. Most CPR doesn't work. So don't beat yourself up about it. Scene safety is huge in the EMS world. Medics don't go in while the bullets are flying. Ski patrol doesn't go in if there is danger of another avalanche. Parajumpers don't go in until the storm is over etc.

 

[Tenk]

Sounds like you did everything right. Scene safety trumps everything else. Don't beat yourself up, you did nothing wrong.

 

[WilcoWorld]

You know what comes before the ABC's? Scene safety. Doubly so when you're with your kids.

Even if it was for reasons that you can scrutinize after the fact, you did the right thing.

 

[HooliganSnail]

Been there, dragged a few dead one in's from outside my hospital......

Probably a drug overdose this one.

 

[engineeredout]

Your safety is paramount 10/10. This isn't someone EMS brought in unresponsive and you stood outside the room for several minutes before doing something. This is someone, in public, likely OD, with foreign object in his hand. Or he could have woken up when you came by and attacked you. Besides, even if you had run in there immediately and started compressions, unwitnessed cardiac arrests do not do well.

You did nothing wrong. I would have done the same.

 

[deleted245139]

I'm with everyone on here - not a thing you did would have changed the likely outcome.

 

[goodoldalky]

You can't hurt a dead guy

 

[BAM!]

He was dead already. It wouldn't have mattered. Your concern about scene safety shows good judgement! Always need to make sure the scene is safe first. EMS 101.

In residency, you will hesitate and second guess yourself especially during the early years. THAT IS NORMAL. Use this parking-lot-dead-guy experience as fuel to "Do the Right Thing," and "Get Help Early."

By the end of residency, you won't second guess yourself anymore in these types of situations. You'll feel confident to stop at car accidents, volunteer on an airplane, perform heimlich on a choking victim, or direct CPR on a MI in the mall. Maybe you'll even do a cric with a steak knife and a few drinking straws. Perhaps you'll also feel comfortable with not volunteering!

Good luck. You should put some thought into this experience, but try not to lose any sleep over it.

 

[quickfeet]

Thanks for the kind words everyone.

I spoke with the detective, told him I am a physician and want to know if I can find out the autopsy results if and when they conclude their investigation. He said to contact him in a few weeks and he'll see what he can tell me.

 

[BAM!]

Thanks for the kind words everyone.

I spoke with the detective, told him I am a physician and want to know if I can find out the autopsy results if and when they conclude their investigation. He said to contact him in a few weeks and he'll see what he can tell me.

You can call the coroner yourself too and ask for the results. This might be more direct and you might get a better explanation from a doctor vs second hand from a detective.

 

[BJJVP]

When I was a second year resident, a graduating senior decided that he would embarrass the younger residents during his last lecture presentation. In front of the entire residency, he told funny anecdotes about various residents freezing up while caring for critical patients and some other residents doing boneheaded things (far worse than the OP's scenario). These guys all turned out to be excellent doctors. If this is your worst "mistake" in medicine, consider yourself blessed. I truly believe the bad & scary doctors are the ones who never reflect on themselves and never get a chance to "feel like ****" about themselves.

 

[KCShaw]

Depending on where you're at, it's possible the ME/coroner report will be open records anyway. Of course it's also possible they found out the individual had known HTN and DM and it ultimately did not fall under ME/coroner jurisdiction.

As everyone else has said, you have to make yourself comfortable with what you're walking into. Find an approach that puts you at least direct risk. Remember that when people wake up sometimes they are violent, even if normally they are not. Few people are trained and experienced in walking into that sort of situation, and those that are tend to move slowly (so slowly sometimes that I cringe at the lack of urgency), but there are reasons they do that -- some of them good reasons.

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

I'm a recent med school grad scheduled to start residency in a few weeks. Two days ago, I was walking to the parking lot with my wife and kids and found a guy sprawled out in the middle of the parking lot near our car. I gave my kid over to my wife and told her to go back inside our apartment (we just moved into a supposedly safe area of town but we are right next to a fairly popular restaurant which we share a parking lot with).

Now when I saw the guy laying there staring up at the sky and not breathing, I hesitated for quite a long time, as the guy seemed to have some shiny object in one of his hands, which I thought was a firearm (turned out it was just a vaporizer/e-cigarette of some kind). Another bystander happened on the scene and I asked if she would call 9-11. I let 2-3 mins pass before walking up to him, and only very slowly. The guy was young maybe 30s or so. The skin on his hands were already mottled and he looked pretty pale. By the time I started doing chest compressions, it was 3-4 mins after I first spotted him laying there.

I feel like **** about it. Second-guessing myself if I was frozen over shock or just concerned he might've been holding a gun. But then upon thinking about it, that really didn't make sense. Why would it be a gun? He was clearly just laying there, not breathing, and I wonder if I would've acted quicker, would it have made a difference? I tend to think not, since it was an unwitnessed arrest and for all I know, he'd been down for quite some time. But I still am having second thoughts. EMS arrived ~10 mins or so after I found him and they did their thing for about a half-hour while I stood there talking to police. The EMS eventually spoke with the ER physician supervising them over the phone, and I guess they pronounced him dead at the scene. I wonder if I hadn't hesitated if it would've made a difference. I seriously doubt it since it was an unwitnessed arrest but still.

I don't even know why I created this thread. I'm not shocked or bothered about seeing a dead person as I've seen quite a few in med school. I guess I'm more ashamed at my own hesitation and wondering if it had more to do with thinking the guy had a gun in his hand and whether I was correct in not immediately bolting to his aid regardless of whatever I thought was in his hand.

Nobodys life is worth my own. Well, maybe that isn't true. A strangers life isn't worth my own. Scene safety is number 1, 2, and 3 in pre-hospital medicine which is what you were doing. Don't try to play hero or god or whatever else you want to call it. Not worth it.

He was dead. You did well.

Good luck.

 

[frosted2]

You did exactly as you should have. Props to you for thinking before rushing into what could have been a dangerous situation.

 

[Birdstrike]

I'm a recent med school grad scheduled to start residency in a few weeks. Two days ago, I was walking to the parking lot with my wife and kids and found a guy sprawled out in the middle of the parking lot near our car. I gave my kid over to my wife and told her to go back inside our apartment (we just moved into a supposedly safe area of town but we are right next to a fairly popular restaurant which we share a parking lot with).

Now when I saw the guy laying there staring up at the sky and not breathing, I hesitated for quite a long time, as the guy seemed to have some shiny object in one of his hands, which I thought was a firearm (turned out it was just a vaporizer/e-cigarette of some kind). Another bystander happened on the scene and I asked if she would call 9-11. I let 2-3 mins pass before walking up to him, and only very slowly. The guy was young maybe 30s or so. The skin on his hands were already mottled and he looked pretty pale. By the time I started doing chest compressions, it was 3-4 mins after I first spotted him laying there.

I feel like **** about it. Second-guessing myself if I was frozen over shock or just concerned he might've been holding a gun. But then upon thinking about it, that really didn't make sense. Why would it be a gun? He was clearly just laying there, not breathing, and I wonder if I would've acted quicker, would it have made a difference? I tend to think not, since it was an unwitnessed arrest and for all I know, he'd been down for quite some time. But I still am having second thoughts. EMS arrived ~10 mins or so after I found him and they did their thing for about a half-hour while I stood there talking to police. The EMS eventually spoke with the ER physician supervising them over the phone, and I guess they pronounced him dead at the scene. I wonder if I hadn't hesitated if it would've made a difference. I seriously doubt it since it was an unwitnessed arrest but still.

I don't even know why I created this thread. I'm not shocked or bothered about seeing a dead person as I've seen quite a few in med school. I guess I'm more ashamed at my own hesitation and wondering if it had more to do with thinking the guy had a gun in his hand and whether I was correct in not immediately bolting to his aid regardless of whatever I thought was in his hand.

"Hands mottled"

If so, and no pulse on scene, there's likely near zero chance of survival.

Plus, the only on scene CPR that makes a difference in adults (for the most part, there are exceptions) is defibrillation, which you didn't have access to.

Stumbling upon carnage when you're not expecting it, is not the same as controlled medical settings. Its normal to feel disturbed by it. It reflects in no way, on your skills as a medical person.

I would not beat yourself up over it. What happened, happened. Nothing you could have done, would likely have changed anything. Near zero percent likelihood, that it would have.


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[Angry Birds]

You messed up big time. You should have taken the dead guy's fake rolex, and then traded it for cash from your buddy from the bar. Works every time. source