Foreign/International Student: Should I redo Undergrad?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
D

deleted520847

As a foreign student, I obviously have challenges whilst thinking about applying to a US medical school. I did my undergrad in Australia and while my grades were great at first, I failed a few courses as I could not attend the exams on my last semester in school. I got married to an American and I am planning my move to US soon on a greencard. I have always planned to do medicine and I do not want to let that dream die now that I am moving to US. Now, knowing that AMCAS does not accept foreign transcripts, is it going to help me to redo my undergrad in the US? Will my foreign grades count toward my GPA too? If yes, how so?
I will obviously be applying to medical school as a resident so please give me my best options. I will have to do very many courses in school anyway so doing a post Bacc would also take me about 3 years, seeing as my 3-year Aussie degree did not cover most of the per-requisites required in American unis. Please advice me on my best options as I plan my route to medical school. I am currently only 27 and quite prepared for the long road ahead. Any advice will be appreciated.

Members don't see this ad.
 
here's what I found on the AMCAS site
https://services.aamc.org/AMCAS2_2010/WebApp/Help/WebHelp/ForeignCoursework.htm
https://services.aamc.org/AMCAS2_2010/WebApp/Help/WebHelp/Transcript_Exception_Request.htm

Unless you went to a school outlined on the first page, then you'd have to redo your prerequisites at a US school. Your GPA from that school wouldn't be counted on your AMCAS. Hopefully after that's done, you'll be a citizen and wouldn't have to worry about applying as a permanent resident.
 
here's what I found on the AMCAS site
https://services.aamc.org/AMCAS2_2010/WebApp/Help/WebHelp/ForeignCoursework.htm
https://services.aamc.org/AMCAS2_2010/WebApp/Help/WebHelp/Transcript_Exception_Request.htm

Unless you went to a school outlined on the first page, then you'd have to redo your prerequisites at a US school. Your GPA from that school wouldn't be counted on your AMCAS. Hopefully after that's done, you'll be a citizen and wouldn't have to worry about applying as a permanent resident.

Thank you for that response. To be more competitive, do you reckon I should do a Post Bacc, PreReqs or an entire degree? Medical school is hard enough to get into, I do not want to hamper my chances by not having complete transcripts.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I would say either PostBac or another full degree. Just taking prereqs might hurt you because you won't have many credits to buffer a bad grade. I personally have no experience with PostBacs, so take that with a grain of salt.
 
Thank you. My husband and I were leaning towards my doing another degree. I could do something fun but include the pre-reqs I suppose... Well, you were very helpful. Thank you
 
Thank you. My husband and I were leaning towards my doing another degree. I could do something fun but include the pre-reqs I suppose... Well, you were very helpful. Thank you

I don't know who said it, but one of my favorite SDN quotes of all times was in response to the questions "What is your biggest regret?"

To which he responded, "I regret studying Engineering instead of Theater" :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
here's what I found on the AMCAS site
https://services.aamc.org/AMCAS2_2010/WebApp/Help/WebHelp/ForeignCoursework.htm
https://services.aamc.org/AMCAS2_2010/WebApp/Help/WebHelp/Transcript_Exception_Request.htm

Unless you went to a school outlined on the first page, then you'd have to redo your prerequisites at a US school. Your GPA from that school wouldn't be counted on your AMCAS. Hopefully after that's done, you'll be a citizen and wouldn't have to worry about applying as a permanent resident.

FYI, as far as US medical schools are concerned, a permanent resident is the same thing as a citizen.

Also, there is a user named Scottish Chap that has done this before and has answered many questions regarding applying with a foreign undergraduate degree. You might try PMing him if you need more explanations, but here is his advice from another thread:

Scottish Chap said:
Welcome. This question comes up a lot. There are many posts in the past regarding this issue and, indeed, it’s one I faced. Please do a search to find those posts.

The bottom line is that U.S. medical schools honor U.S. and Canadian undergraduate degrees. If you don’t have one of those, you have a non-standard application that is in danger of being relegated to the circular filing cabinet. In fact, most medical schools will tell you outright that they won’t review your file until it looks more ‘American’. It’s a stupid, stupid rule, but you pretty much need to do what they ask if you want to play in their sand box. Once you are in medical school, those games gets more serious.


You have two options:
1. Complete 60-90 credits of undergraduate work in the U.S. Those credits generally must contain the pre-requisite courses (6-8 credits of chemistry, organic chemistry, physics, and biology all with lab experience). Some medical schools also wants English and a few want calculus. Some medical schools want only prerequisite courses. Some want more than that (hence the 90 credits for some). You must contact the schools you are interested in and do as they ask. They have the power. Most schools will also expect you (at your own expense) to pay a professional agency to ‘translate’ your foreign undergraduate degree into a U.S. equivalent GPA. There are several agencies that provide this service if you use Google. Those evaluated grades can be entered onto the AMCAS form, but they will not be verified by AMCAS and they will not factor into the GPA calculation that medical schools use to ascertain whether you are medical school material.
2. Roll all of your foreign grades into a second, U.S. undergraduate degree as a transfer student. I know a couple of people who used this strategy (one from Australia, one from Scotland – both gained entry into U.S. allopathic (M.D.) medical programs). If you take this option, you may be able to get an undergraduate degree in 18-24 months.

A third option (the one I took, a path less trodden) was to figure out which schools will accept a foreign undergraduate degree if a U.S. graduate degree has been earned. I had 91 credits between a U.S. M.S. and Ph.D. I was ultimately only responsible for the prerequisite courses I did not take overseas (physics). Few schools will accept this option, but I am living proof that such schools exists. I also know two other people that found success with this option. Both were from England. One went to Yale Medical School and he’s now a neurosurgeon and the other went to Cornell Medical School and he’s now a dermatologist.

In the end, the MCAT is a great equalizer. If you rock the MCAT, some schools will forgive you for applying to their medical school with a foreign undergraduate degree.

Good luck!

SC

P.S. Forget about pre-medical counselors. The are totally clueless about this stuff through no fault of their own. They just don't see people like you. The honest ones will admit that. The weaker ones will pretend they know what they are doing, but they'll send you down the wrong path. When I enrolled for the physics classes I was missing, they asked me to meet with the chair of the physics department because my undergraduate transcript didn't say "math 101". I met with the physics chair. He asked what my highest degree was, then laughed loudly, apologized, and signed the form without asking any more questions. It was a huge inconvenience to drive 20 miles to enroll twice but, as I said, most people are clueless about this stuff.

P.P.S. If you don't have a green card, fix that problem first. It is the most time-consuming part. I filed for my green card a year before I took the MCAT. My green card came through seven days before my first medical school interview......two years later. Forget about scholarships. If you don't have independent wealth, there are few places that will be willing to help you. Those that might offer money, will break your knee caps with a hammer when you can't pay back the 50% interest that comes with their loan.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'm not 100% sure but I think getting an American degree would be your best bet. This would allow you to get your degree while also fulfilling all of the pre-med requirements. You should look into Columbia University's School of General Studies; they have a great non-traditional 4-year program that allows you to get a BS or BA while also fulfilling pre-reqs for medical school entrance!

Whatever you decide, good luck~ I hope it all works out for you!! :D :D
 
Thank you all for your honest candid replies. I am indeed looking to do something fun like music or english lit while completing my pre-reqs. I am applying for a BLS meanwhile. I will look into columbia and other non-trad friendly schools. Thanks for the tips. I especially appreciate the tip to transfer some courses. Ingenious! I always wanted to be a doctor but life can sometimes derail you. After I got my son however, I decided to go after my dreams so that I can be a good role model to my baby. I want him to realize he should never give up on his dreams, however impossible they may seem. Medical school, here I come :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As a foreign student, I obviously have challenges whilst thinking about applying to a US medical school. I did my undergrad in Australia and while my grades were great at first, I failed a few courses as I could not attend the exams on my last semester in school. I got married to an American and I am planning my move to US soon on a greencard. I have always planned to do medicine and I do not want to let that dream die now that I am moving to US. Now, knowing that AMCAS does not accept foreign transcripts, is it going to help me to redo my undergrad in the US? Will my foreign grades count toward my GPA too? If yes, how so?
I will obviously be applying to medical school as a resident so please give me my best options. I will have to do very many courses in school anyway so doing a post Bacc would also take me about 3 years, seeing as my 3-year Aussie degree did not cover most of the per-requisites required in American unis. Please advice me on my best options as I plan my route to medical school. I am currently only 27 and quite prepared for the long road ahead. Any advice will be appreciated.
I also did undergrad abroad and did a post-bacc to make up the pre-requisites. However, I did a master's degree before my post-bacc. Together, it took about four years, which is the same amount of time a second bachelor's might have taken. I think it might be beneficial to get a master's in something health related (like public health) because it relates to medicine in terms of how to have a 'forest vs trees' view of healthcare and also shows med schools that you can handle graduate level work.
The downside to a post-bacc though, is that there's very little federal funding for them; most of it will be out of pocket or private loans so that's something to consider.
Wish you all the best!
 
Members don't see this ad :)
After many hurdles, I finally started my UG at the grand old age of 29 :rolleyes:. I started at a local community college doing business studies while also studying for my pre-reqs which I plan to take at a 4 year college. I will transfer in 2 years (although I plan to accelerate my studies if I can) and major in a Bachelors of Literal studies. Since my grades so far have been phenomenal (knock on wood), I would like to sweep the disaster that was my first degree under the carpet and never see it again. Will I still have to declare my first BA even if my scores here are great or is it something I can neglect mentioning and still be ethically in the green?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
After many hurdles, I finally started my UG at the grand old age of 29 :rolleyes:. I started at a local community college doing business studies while also studying for my pre-reqs which I plan to take at a 4 year college. I will transfer in 2 years (although I plan to accelerate my studies if I can) and major in a Bachelors of Literal studies. Since my grades so far have been phenomenal (knock on wood), I would like to sweep the disaster that was my first degree under the carpet and never see it again. Will I still have to declare my first BA even if my scores here are great or is it something I can neglect mentioning and still be ethically in the green?
Foreign degrees and grades are not included in an AMCAS application (except for Canada).
 
While I will not need to include them in my AMCAS application, will I need to disclose them to the schools I apply to?
 
After many hurdles, I finally started my UG at the grand old age of 29 :rolleyes:. I started at a local community college doing business studies while also studying for my pre-reqs which I plan to take at a 4 year college. I will transfer in 2 years (although I plan to accelerate my studies if I can) and major in a Bachelors of Literal studies. Since my grades so far have been phenomenal (knock on wood), I would like to sweep the disaster that was my first degree under the carpet and never see it again. Will I still have to declare my first BA even if my scores here are great or is it something I can neglect mentioning and still be ethically in the green?

Thank you for updating us over two years later! I totally commend your dedication.

I'm curious to know whether you had a shot at Aussie medical schools as a domestic applicant. Since you already have a bachelor's degree, did you have a decent chance of entering a graduate-entry MBBS or the new MD programs at UQ, Sydney, Melbourne, etc with your grades and GAMSAT (if taken)? Did the provisions of the US green card prevent you from doing this? I feel that entering medical school in Australia would've been a less daunting task than it would be in the US considering you're forced to retake undergraduate studies again.
 
After many hurdles, I finally started my UG at the grand old age of 29 :rolleyes:. I started at a local community college doing business studies while also studying for my pre-reqs which I plan to take at a 4 year college. I will transfer in 2 years (although I plan to accelerate my studies if I can) and major in a Bachelors of Literal studies. Since my grades so far have been phenomenal (knock on wood), I would like to sweep the disaster that was my first degree under the carpet and never see it again. Will I still have to declare my first BA even if my scores here are great or is it something I can neglect mentioning and still be ethically in the green?
If your first degree is from overseas and you did not do extremely well, it can be to your advantage to 'roll/transfer' those grades into a U.S. degree in which you perform well. In that case, no, you won't need to list the foreign grades on AMCAS. Personally, I listed my 'evaluated' foreign grades + credits on the AMCAS transcript, and they were all right there in my file on the AMCAS form when I interviewed for medical school (goodness....over a decade ago). I did, however, have my foreign undergraduate school as well as the U.S. credentialing agency send my transcripts to AMCAS on an "official" basis (at my expense).

I have to laugh at my quote which someone found from WAY back. I actually was a mildly amusing person before becoming an attending...
 
Scottish Chap. That's awfully good advice. I am in the process of getting some courses evaluated and I intend to transfer them...but only the ones I did great in

I'm mighty glad I don't have a sense of humor. At least I don't run the risk of losing it once I get into college since I never had it to begin with
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Did the provisions of the US green card prevent you from doing this? I feel that entering medical school in Australia would've been a less daunting task than it would be in the US considering you're forced to retake undergraduate studies again.
I had a shot with Aussie med schools up until my last semester when I couldn't pay school fees. I aced everything until then...then I was denied the chance to sit my exam but I didn't think to withdraw from the course in time... so I flunked out my entire last semester and had to redo it. Since I married an American and had to move here anyway, I figured there was no point trying to get into med school there. Instead I see a second shot at my dream without the shadow of my ugly last semester.
 
If your first degree is from overseas and you did not do extremely well, it can be to your advantage to 'roll/transfer' those grades into a U.S. degree in which you perform well. In that case, no, you won't need to list the foreign grades on AMCAS. Personally, I listed my 'evaluated' foreign grades + credits on the AMCAS transcript, and they were all right there in my file on the AMCAS form when I interviewed for medical school (goodness....over a decade ago). I did, however, have my foreign undergraduate school as well as the U.S. credentialing agency send my transcripts to AMCAS on an "official" basis (at my expense).
@Scottish Chap
how is that possible when AMCAS states that foreign credits transferred to US college will be calculated into your AMCAS GPA.
 
If you are given credit by an accredited US school and those classes appear on your transcript, then they should appear on the AMCAS application as well.
my transfer credits / foreign GPA appear separately from my US GPA, but they are listed in the format of AT, BT(quality points included as if US grades) and so forth. I do not know if those graded will be calculated along with my other US courses or not.
 
my transfer credits / foreign GPA appear separately from my US GPA, but they are listed in the format of AT, BT(quality points included as if US grades) and so forth. I do not know if those graded will be calculated along with my other US courses or not.
I have never seen grades listed this way. You may want to consult AMCAS regarding their inclusion.
 
@Scottish Chap
how is that possible when AMCAS states that foreign credits transferred to US college will be calculated into your AMCAS GPA.
Since it actually happened it's clearly possible. AMCAS listed the courses from overseas, with the 'evaluated U.S. equivalent grades' beside each course with equivalent U.S. credits, without the "verified" statement beside it. Seems like a reasonable compromise on the part of AMCAS as far as I was concerned.
 
@Scottish Chap
Since it actually happened it's clearly possible. AMCAS listed the courses from overseas, with the 'evaluated U.S. equivalent grades' beside each course with equivalent U.S. credits, without the "verified" statement beside it. Seems like a reasonable compromise on the part of AMCAS as far as I was concerned.
I know it has been long time since that, but do you remember if you transferred any credits to a US college. I am a little concerned about it, I called AMCAS and got different opinions. My college assigned my transfer credits grades of AT, BT on my transcript. I am assuming ''T' stands for transfer.
In your previous post suggested that if he/she transfers credits to US college it would work, but AMCAS won't verify grades. Am I correct? is this how it worked out for you??
 
@Scottish Chap

I know it has been long time since that, but do you remember if you transferred any credits to a US college. I am a little concerned about it, I called AMCAS and got different opinions. My college assigned my transfer credits grades of AT, BT on my transcript. I am assuming ''T' stands for transfer.
In your previous post suggested that if he/she transfers credits to US college it would work, but AMCAS won't verify grades. Am I correct? is this how it worked out for you??
No, I did not transfer foreign credits into a U.S. UG degree. Ask AMCAS.
 
I believe you need a minimum of 90 credits anyway to apply if I am not mistaken so getting a new degree which will be about 120 might not be a bad idea.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I graduated from a foreign undergrad and gained admission to an MD school. I did take 90 credits in the US (both community college and university credits). I used World Education Services to evaluate my transcript but did not transfer any of my college credits to a US school. In the AMCAS application, I listed all my foreign course names but did not include any grades or credit hours.
What's important is to prove that you can do well at a US school and on the MCAT.
If you have any questions, you can always pm me.
 
I graduated from a foreign undergrad and gained admission to an MD school. I did take 90 credits in the US (both community college and university credits). I used World Education Services to evaluate my transcript but did not transfer any of my college credits to a US school. In the AMCAS application, I listed all my foreign course names but did not include any grades or credit hours.
What's important is to prove that you can do well at a US school and on the MCAT.
If you have any questions, you can always pm me.
I have a situation similar to yours. I have not finished 90 credit hours yet. I gradutaed with a gpa below 3.0 according to WES evaluation, my mistake that I transferred some of this course work now to US institution. My US GPA is very solid, were you told by any school that we are only considering your US course work or overall picture? how did that play out on the interview?
 
I have a situation similar to yours. I have not finished 90 credit hours yet. I gradutaed with a gpa below 3.0 according to WES evaluation, my mistake that I transferred some of this course work now to US institution. My US GPA is very solid, were you told by any school that we are only considering your US course work or overall picture? how did that play out on the interview?

Only during one interview did they ask me about my foreign GPA. I told them the facts, that I got a 3.51 in undergrad but that translated to a 3.7 in the WES evaluation. They already knew that I had a 4.0 GPA in my post-bacc, so I think that that reassured them that I can do well in medical school. Thus I'd assume that they emphasize performance in US courses and this applies to many medical schools.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Only during one interview did they ask me about my foreign GPA. I told them the facts, that I got a 3.51 in undergrad but that translated to a 3.7 in the WES evaluation. They already knew that I had a 4.0 GPA in my post-bacc, so I think that that reassured them that I can do well in medical school. Thus I'd assume that they emphasize performance in US courses and this applies to many medical schools.
I am just worried since my transfer credit hours are assigned weird grading scale such as AT,BT,CT on my US transcript. I am considering DO because their new policy of calculating foreign course work(excluded like TX med schools). There are only 3 MD schools in my state, one of them told me you need to take pre-reqs in US and we do not care about your prior course work even if it is all A's. I do not know how it is going to turn out once AMCAS calculate US/Foreign together. do you have a school list that I may target based on your experience.
 
I am just worried since my transfer credit hours are assigned weird grading scale such as AT,BT,CT on my US transcript. I am considering DO because their new policy of calculating foreign course work(excluded like TX med schools). There are only 3 MD schools in my state, one of them told me you need to take pre-reqs in US and we do not care about your prior course work even if it is all A's. I do not know how it is going to turn out once AMCAS calculate US/Foreign together. do you have a school list that I may target based on your experience.

Have you checked the 2016 AMCAS manual? They explain how you will input the credit hours. (pages 49-50) https://www.aamc.org/students/download/182162/data/amcas_instruction_manual.pdf

Basically, when you apply through AMCAS, you will be putting in your transferred grades there and you will have to send the transcript to AMCAS for them to verify your grades. It may or may not be seen as AT, BT, etc. but you probably could input it as A, B, etc. if it says that it's equivalent based on what your US college says. I'm pretty sure AMCAS will evaluate both your US and transferred foreign grades to compute the AMCAS GPA.

DO school is another option, but you should do research on each school you are interested. Some accept foreign bachelor's and grades, others don't. I don't know much about DO schools or AACOMAS requirements for foreign coursework, but you should check out their manual.

If you are really serious about going MD, it's best for you to take all your prerequisites in the US because I feel that they discriminate against those who don't.

My school list:
UCSF
UCLA
UCSD
UCI
UCD
Tulane
Quinnipiac
Albert Einstein
U of Rochester
U of Pittsburgh
Drexel
NYU
SUNY Downstate
SUNY Upstate
SUNY Stony Brook
SUNY Buffalo
NYMC
Albany
USC
Tufts

Note that private schools tend to be more accepting of those with foreign bachelor's, but they tend to be schools with high average MCAT and GPA.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Have you checked the 2016 AMCAS manual? They explain how you will input the credit hours. (pages 49-50) https://www.aamc.org/students/download/182162/data/amcas_instruction_manual.pdf

Basically, when you apply through AMCAS, you will be putting in your transferred grades there and you will have to send the transcript to AMCAS for them to verify your grades. It may or may not be seen as AT, BT, etc. but you probably could input it as A, B, etc. if it says that it's equivalent based on what your US college says. I'm pretty sure AMCAS will evaluate both your US and transferred foreign grades to compute the AMCAS GPA.

DO school is another option, but you should do research on each school you are interested. Some accept foreign bachelor's and grades, others don't. I don't know much about DO schools or AACOMAS requirements for foreign coursework, but you should check out their manual.

If you are really serious about going MD, it's best for you to take all your prerequisites in the US because I feel that they discriminate against those who don't.

My school list:
UCSF
UCLA
UCSD
UCI
UCD
Tulane
Quinnipiac
Albert Einstein
U of Rochester
U of Pittsburgh
Drexel
NYU
SUNY Downstate
SUNY Upstate
SUNY Stony Brook
SUNY Buffalo
NYMC
Albany
USC
Tufts

Note that private schools tend to be more accepting of those with foreign bachelor's, but they tend to be schools with high average MCAT and GPA.
You must be a permanent resident or citizen as I notice that several of these schools haven't matriculated many international students in the last few years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
My progress so far.

I had some medical trouble and had to withdraw from school the past sem. I withdrew in time so they did not reflect as withdrawals on my transcript. This proved to be a blessing in disguise as I was accepted into a uni which transferred 90 credits from my previous studies. This essentially means I only have to do 30 credits to get a bachelors in the US. Now, I know most schools will need me to have 90 US credits so I still intend to do this. This however means I will hold a US undergrad but I won't have to do the full 120 credit hours to get one. I plan to do a Biology major so that I can knock out my pre-reqs and still be able to do a few other recommended classes that will help boost my sGPA. I also decided to go the Biology route as a fall back plan. It's my way of gauging how much I like an all science curriculum before
sinking 350k into med school. If med school does not work out, it is a field I will not be too miserable working in... I only need 40 credits to get my Bio degree which will also include most of my pre-reqs; Math(one sem), Chem, Orgo as an elective, Bio and Biochem. I intend to take my English,Physics and one sem of Math classes at the cc for financial reasons. All other filler classes like psych etc will also be taken at the cc to get me up to 90 credits mostly because the cc also has online classes for most of these but they do not reflect as online courses on the transcript.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
@DeterminedIrony Assuming you are ok going DO, I don't think most will care that you don't have 90 US credits..
I am ok going DO. I hope to go to a school in the DMV area so that I can have family to help with my child, other than that I only care about the DR part, not the MD or DO. A counselor at school did advice me to do my pre-reqs and get my degree then apply to schools that do not require 90 credits but I am wary about doing this, not getting in and then becoming a re-applicant. I'll cross that bridge when I get there though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
@DeterminedIrony Assuming you are ok going DO, I don't think most will care that you don't have 90 US credits..
she will have to check with the school. The new rule for AACOMAS is no foreign course/transferred course work will be verified nor included in the calculation of GPA.
 
she will have to check with the school. The new rule for AACOMAS is no foreign course/transferred course work will be verified nor included in the calculation of GPA.
The rules have changed then... 2 years ago, foreign courses were included in my GPAs calculation. AACOMAS was very flexible when I applied. I was having difficulty to get a foreign transcript (3rd world country bureaucracy), and they even called that foreign school to sort that problem out for me...
 
Last edited:
Tbh I am just going to ensure that I have all 90 credits before applying. It opens up more avenues for me. I was going to do 120 credits initially so it's still a win for me
 
Top