FMG's and DO's

Q-Optics, surgical ergonomics - redefined
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NRAI2001

NRAI2001

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How difficult is it for an FMG (carribean, US citizen) or a DO student to get a neurosurg spot? Which has more of an advantage a Carribean grad or DO grad? Do grads from low ranking med schools have any difficulties? Thanks a lot.
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From looking at neurosurgery applicant matches from the past 5 years or so, it is clear that there are few to no FMG's or DO's matching into this field. It would likely be much easier to work now to get into a U.S. allopathic medical school, then to struggle and match into neurosurgery with a foreign or D.O. degree. It certainly would be possible to do that, but you may have to spend a year or two extra anyways. It would be more reasonable to spend that time before entering medical schoool to get into an allopathic school.

As far as low-ranking schools, sure it may be more difficult, but I would venture to guess that it would be easier to get into neurosurgery from a 'low-ranking' allopathic school (and obviously what constitutes a low-ranking school is a matter of opinion in many cases) then it would be to do it with a D.O. or carribean degree.

Also realize that many (in fact, likely most) medical students change their mind on what they want to do as they go through medical school. Although neurosurgery might look attractive to you now, you may find a field that is even more enticing once you are in medical school, and perhaps choice of school will not matter as much.
 
Aren't there some osteopathic neurosurgery residencies though?
 
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There are around 10 osteopathic neurosurgery programs. Don't know how competitive these are. Most, if not all, are at smaller community hospitals so they don't share the volume of the academic allopathic programs. It is certainly an option. It does limit you in the sense that you cannot get board certified from the American Board of Neurological Surgeons. Instead it would be through the American Osteopathic Board of Surgery. Don't know how this might limit hospital privileges in the future.

The 95 allopathic programs are all at academic centers except for one.
 
mpp said:
From looking at neurosurgery applicant matches from the past 5 years or so, it is clear that there are few to no FMG's or DO's matching into this field. It would likely be much easier to work now to get into a U.S. allopathic medical school, then to struggle and match into neurosurgery with a foreign or D.O. degree. It certainly would be possible to do that, but you may have to spend a year or two extra anyways. It would be more reasonable to spend that time before entering medical schoool to get into an allopathic school.

As far as low-ranking schools, sure it may be more difficult, but I would venture to guess that it would be easier to get into neurosurgery from a 'low-ranking' allopathic school (and obviously what constitutes a low-ranking school is a matter of opinion in many cases) then it would be to do it with a D.O. or carribean degree.

Also realize that many (in fact, likely most) medical students change their mind on what they want to do as they go through medical school. Although neurosurgery might look attractive to you now, you may find a field that is even more enticing once you are in medical school, and perhaps choice of school will not matter as much.
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I know that I a may change my mind when i enter med school, but I would atleast like to have the option of being able to realistically apply to neurosurg. after I complete med school. I m just thinking ahead.

-Thanks
 
MPP, okay i think IMGs aren't under any illusions about how dificult it is to enter a Neurosurgery program but nevertheless i think u will agree with me that it is possible,right??? Some questions

1. Which step 1 score in your opinion could give a realistic chance(note i am not referring to average score) to an IMG to match??
2. Are South American med schools(specifically Brazillian ones) at equal disadvantage as Caribbean and European counterparts or the fact that one studies medicine in Spanish/Portuguese makes u inferior(that is ya chances)???
3. Note, in my med school here in Sao Paulo...the duration is 6 years,with the last one and half year being internship/Housemanship(where u work as a doc under supervision). In such situation, with nothing like away rotations/electives, does it minimize my chances???Is it possible to do rotations in Neurosurgery during my hols in the US though it isn't part of my curriculum?? If yes how do i go about it??
Thanks for your response!!!!1
 
1. There is no specific score. Do as well as you possibly can. A score less than 230 (or around 90 two digit score) would be likely be too low unless you have an extensive research background to offset that. However, even a score of 260 would not make you an automatic candidate as there will be U.S. applicants with scores in that range.

2. I don't know how well different schools are perceived but the more well known the school is, the more it will likely help you.

3. Have some U.S. clinical experience is almost necessary (although there may be som rare excpetions) for your application to be considered. You will need at least some letters of recommendation from American physicians that have worked with you. You can do away rotations at any U.S. medical schools that accept international students. Check the school's web pages.
 
mpp said:
1. There is no specific score. Do as well as you possibly can. A score less than 230 (or around 90 two digit score) would be likely be too low unless you have an extensive research background to offset that. However, even a score of 260 would not make you an automatic candidate as there will be U.S. applicants with scores in that range.

2. I don't know how well different schools are perceived but the more well known the school is, the more it will likely help you.

3. Have some U.S. clinical experience is almost necessary (although there may be som rare excpetions) for your application to be considered. You will need at least some letters of recommendation from American physicians that have worked with you. You can do away rotations at any U.S. medical schools that accept international students. Check the school's web pages.
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mpp are you currently doing neurosurg at Mayo? I'm from Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland and our school has an affiliation with Mayo for clinical electives for 2 or 3 students that do get 95+ on step 1. One guy I know did his neurosurg electives at Hopkins and Mayo in one summer and said that after talking to the Hopkins secretary that they have never ever accepted a FMG into neurosurg ever.

He didn't mention this about Mayo though. Do you know anything more about this? I'm third year (equivalent of 2nd year in US) and neurosurg is one of the specialities that interests me.
 
Problem with DO residencies is this,

Because their home hospital is a smaller osteopathic community hospital, they have to do rotations at essentially five hospitals (DO or MD centers) to receive adequate training, seems more like a nightmare to me!!!! Hardly wonder if it is worth the frustrations. But of course, any DO neurosurgeon should hopefully add their opinions to this!!!
 
Okay, just checked into it!!!

There are nine osteopathic neurosurgery residencies out there.

To make an example of what I have stated above, let's say that you are interested in training at Pontiac Osteopathic Hospital. In addition to doing rotatons there, you also have to spend some time at Harpers, Sinai/Grace, Detroit receiving. To me, I'd prefer training all at one hospital if possible.
 
NIQ said:
mpp are you currently doing neurosurg at Mayo? I'm from Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland and our school has an affiliation with Mayo for clinical electives for 2 or 3 students that do get 95+ on step 1. One guy I know did his neurosurg electives at Hopkins and Mayo in one summer and said that after talking to the Hopkins secretary that they have never ever accepted a FMG into neurosurg ever.

He didn't mention this about Mayo though. Do you know anything more about this? I'm third year (equivalent of 2nd year in US) and neurosurg is one of the specialities that interests me.
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Yes, Mayo has taken FMG's before. One of the current chief residents is from Australia and went to medical school there.
 
I would appreciate any input.

I am a now fourth year osteopathic student who has been interested in neurosurgery since early second year. Had I known that I would fall in love with said specialty I would have attended my local state MD school (university of kansas) instead I chose to move to Tulsa and attend OSU-COM which has proven to have been a wise choice in terms of didactics and a poor choice in terms of politics. I scored 99th percentile on both the COMLEX and USMLE step one with a 774 on comlex and 251 on uslme. I have logged over 180 first assists with a local DO neurosurgeon and have many excellent letters of recomendation. I have one publication in the journal of exprerimental biochemistry and hold a B.S. in genetics from KU. I will be applying for residency in both allopathic and osteopathic matches. Those of you who have a working knowledge of the field and applicants please respond if you would be so kind as to my chances. I am aware that several MD schools have DO neurosurgery residents. One of which happens to be the chief resident at KU right now.

BK
 
bck said:
I would appreciate any input.

I am a now fourth year osteopathic student who has been interested in neurosurgery since early second year. Had I known that I would fall in love with said specialty I would have attended my local state MD school (university of kansas) instead I chose to move to Tulsa and attend OSU-COM which has proven to have been a wise choice in terms of didactics and a poor choice in terms of politics. I scored 99th percentile on both the COMLEX and USMLE step one with a 774 on comlex and 251 on uslme. I have logged over 180 first assists with a local DO neurosurgeon and have many excellent letters of recomendation. I have one publication in the journal of exprerimental biochemistry and hold a B.S. in genetics from KU. I will be applying for residency in both allopathic and osteopathic matches. Those of you who have a working knowledge of the field and applicants please respond if you would be so kind as to my chances. I am aware that several MD schools have DO neurosurgery residents. One of which happens to be the chief resident at KU right now.

BK
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UC Davis has had a couple of DO's in their NS program.
 
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Docgeorge said:
UC Davis has had a couple of DO's in their NS program.
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UC Davis has some DOs in their NS program? What school are they from? Do you have link to their bios?
 
One guy was from NOVA he's in practice in Chico. I think his name is Jeffery Mibbs. The other guy is probally a 4 or 5th year resident by now, but I dont know where he went to school. MUSC has a guy from PCOM. Wayne State University Chair of Pedi NS is a DO who did his training at SUNY Buffalo back in the day. I cant think of any others off the top of my head. I would also consider Provadence in South Field MI and Long Island Jeswish for osteopathic NS. Both are supposed to excellent in terms of faculty and exposure to pathology.

Realistically, I'm finding out that while some places may look at you like a ugly redheaded stepchild because of your degree irregardless. Most places will not care that you are a DO if you show that you are agressive, motivated, and willing to work your ass off while you are on rotations. Having said that I'd also stack the deck in your favor by taking the USMLE (a much better test then the COMPLEX) and doing some research.

Good luck
 
I know a DO that did his NS residency at wayne state. it was a awhile back though and he had a PhD which he said helped alot..
 
I am a resident in an osteopathic neurosurgery and I thought I would reply. 1st I have known both FMG’s and DO’s in allopathic programs. However most of these situations were unique regarding the circumatances i.e. the resident was well known prior to being given a vacant spot. While applying myself to both programs I understood that their were some political implications for a an MD program to accept a DO through the match, when qualified MD still exist. As always, DO’s have found a way around this by training their own. I accepted a DO spot with the encouragement of well respected Neurosurgeons I had meet during medical school that had closely trained with DO’s. This has been a good choice for me.

My advice would be to spend time at a MD program that you can get a good letter of recommendation from and have shot at getting in if you are so inclined, However do not be reluctant to evaluate 1st hand some DO programs. While the learning experience will be some what different in each program, the fundamentals remain the same.

There was a question about certification and hospital privileges; each hospital must decide whether or not grant a physician privileges and this can occasionally involve some politics, however, osteopathic board certified physicians make a part of the medical staff in most hospitals throughout the country. So it would be difficult for the hospital to keep you from obtaining privileges based only on this.
 
I currently matched into a DO neurosurgery program. If you have any questions feel free to give me a call sometime. I rotated at 4 of the programs and have a friend at 1 other program. I'll be as un-biased as possible.
Take care,
Josh
(817)821-2881
 
ctdoc said:
I currently matched into a DO neurosurgery program. If you have any questions feel free to give me a call sometime. I rotated at 4 of the programs and have a friend at 1 other program. I'll be as un-biased as possible.
Take care,
Josh
(817)821-2881
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How many DO spots (how many people are accepted) each year?
 
As a PCOM neurosurg resident, i'm surprised when people tell me that Pennsylvania hospital, Gesinger Medical Center, and Cooper University Hospital (one of the main teaching sites for UMDNJ) are COMMUNITY hospitals.
they sure didn't seem like community hospitals when i rotated there as a neurosurgery resident

granted my training is spread out over 5-6 hospitals, which brings its own special pain. However, the good in this is that i am working with a great number more attendings than the average allopathic resident.

moreover, many allopathic residencies also have outlying rotations anyway

there is nothing inherently inferior about an osteopathic residency. there are junk programs (like like in allopath land) and there are good programs.


p.s.-getting a job after graduation (or even a fellowship) is historically NOT a problem for a osteopathically trained neurosurgeon
 
gawtti said:
here's a graduate from the university of debrecen in hungary. Dr. Rishi Sheth a PGY-5 at jackson medical in florida. there is also a grad from SGU.

http://um-jmh.org/body.cfm?id=8942
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Another guy in this program also:


Neurosurgery Intern Bios


Dr. Samy A. Elhammady is currently a First Year Intern and is expected to graduate in June, 2012. He was trained at the Mansoura University in Egypt where he earned is Medical degree with honors. He practiced General Medicine for the Egyptian Ministry of Health in Damietta, Egypt and was Resident of Neurosurgery and Post-graduate student for a Masters of Science Program in General Surgery at the University of Mansoura. He also completed a Pre-Residency Fellowship in 2005 at University of Miami/Jackson Memorial Hospital.
 
...well soon to be anyway. here is a neurosurgeon resident PGY-6 at KU. yes, he did graduate from an osteopathic school...can you believe that? i also looked at a resident list someone posted who showed an osteopath at MUSC...although they have him listed as an MD on the website (on purpose or not...i don't know). so the point to this message is that...yes, it's probably a lot harder to get into an allopathic neurosurgery residency at a university coming from an osteopathic school...and yes, it's probably impossible to match to harvard, yale, stanford, duke etc for neurosurgery even if you get a 260+ on the USMLE step 1 (and yes there ARE DO students who do smoke the USMLE) , won a noble prize for your research, built a brand new hospital with your own two hands, and have a perfect 4.0 (or number one in your class...however your school determines that) ...BUT there are at least two DO's out there in allopathic residencies at academic institutions (and maybe more than two?) so it's not impossible to match allopathic neurosurgery at an academic institution. and maybe it's an uphill battle right now...even for the most competitive osteopathic students. But times are changing and if you are a DO student and want to train at an allopathic residency for neurosurgery..it is possible....even if we have to do everything but sell our souls to the neuro-gods (although who knows...these two guys might have). maybe one day it will be an even playing field for all physicians in all residencies (osteo and allo alike). and maybe one day pre-meds, meds, and old school docs around the US and world will actually believe that DOs CAN tie their shoes, CAN count to ten, AND CAN use the right end of a stethoscope. but as for now...i am glad i chose osteo, and i'm also glad that it's POSSIBLE (even if it's not thaaaat possible) to match pretty much any residency except for plastics (although we will work on that...) even if it's not harvard or yale. because the vast majority of medical students out there allo or osteo will never even get to mow the lawn at stanford or jhu. well if you have endured my rant...here is the website of the KU neurosurgeon resident who graduated from an osteopathic school...

http://www2.kumc.edu/neurosurgery/residents.html
 
How should an FMG interested in neurosurgery go about obtaining US clinical experience or research?? Who should be contacted and what kind of experience would help the CV the most??? Also what should ones boards scores be like?
 
mercury1980 said:
How should an FMG interested in neurosurgery go about obtaining US clinical experience or research?? Who should be contacted and what kind of experience would help the CV the most??? Also what should ones boards scores be like?
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Good question.

I know its an uphill battle for FMGs, maybe even more so than DOs. BUt lets say someone really wanted to do Neurosurg. could doing 1 or 2 years of research after graduating from DO/ FMG MD school help?
 
This is just a general statement that I am making regarding all specialties. If you went to medical school (anywhere in the world) and will have a DO or MD, you can get ANY residency. Yes - ANY RESIDENCY. It may be an uphill battle and it may take a little longer depending on other factors - but yes you too can get ANY residency. It's just a matter of how bad you want it and how dedicated you are. Don't let anyone deter you from doing something you really want to do. Take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt. Remember, people have done it before and so can you.

Hopkins has 4 foreign NS residents out a total of 28 (if you count the prelim year). http://www.neuro.jhmi.edu/nustrn/residents/index.html
 
2 Things

1. There are 11 osteopathic NS residencies across the country (the one in NY used to be dually accredited -- don't know what happened there):
http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...295672d28-2660122D-F093-65CA-995EF79FBCE25DAC

2. This guy graduated from NYCOM and is an attending at Cornell in NYC:
http://www.cornellphysicians.com/ajcohen/index.html

Bottom line: Since DOs and FMGs are already at a disadvantage (FMGs more so, I think, b/c of AOA programs) going into the process because of existing prejudices at a number of institutions, I think their best bet is to take the lesser known spots wherever they can find them, and make a big name for themselves there. That's just my opinion.
 
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