Florida to ban DEI programming and instruction; eliminate university tenure

[texanpsychdoc]

The judgment is based on many comments in many threads, as was referenced earlier. It's up to you what to do with it. You can refuse to engage with anyone who questions these inconsistencies, as you've largely done. Or choose a more intellectually honest discussion. I'm really fine either way.

I’m curious if the option to provide an opinion, then once it gets to a certain point a boundary is established. Is that a possible option? Or is it, once someone opens their “mouths” they are required to debate it to the very end? I wasn’t aware of such SOP on this forum.

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[WisNeuro]

I’m curious if the option to provide an opinion, then once it gets to a certain point a boundary is established. Is that a possible option? Or is it, once someone opens their “mouths” they are required to debate it to the very end? I wasn’t aware of such SOP on this forum.

It's always an option. You can always choose not to engage, as you have done. I do not have to abide by that option, but obviously, if you refuse to discuss something, the conversation will die down. But, just expect it to be referenced again if a related discussion pops up.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

It's always an option. You can always choose not to engage, as you have done. I do not have to abide by that option, but obviously, if you refuse to discuss something, the conversation will die down. But, just expect it to be referenced again if a related discussion pops up.

That's fine. That's your approach. But I would hazard a guess and say that you have also probably refrained in responding to certain folks on certain threads in the past. Maybe I'm wrong. Either way, simply wanting to set a limitation or boundary in and of itself does not rise to the level of labeling someone as being contradictory or hypocritical. There would need to be other layers involved to firmly draw that inference about someone you barely know.

Sometimes, conversations don't have to be indefinite. They can have an ending, or, simply go onto another path as has happened in other threads, and frankly, what is happening now.

I will say it again - my decision on DEI stuff is not just based on data-driven studies, etc. I have mentioned my views on how psychological research is highly variable with issues pertaining to replication ad generalizability. As such, I am also aware that if you debate this out with someone who devotes most of their professional life to this topic, they will most likely push back with whatever "evidence" they have. For me, sometimes it doesn't have to make sense to others if my decision is based more so on moralistic or philosophical issues rather than being driven completely by science. We as social scientists are not the most well-respected amongst other scientists - there are things in psychology that have been published that I often shake my head at. But, because it was published, people drink the Koolaid and preach about it. It becomes popular on university campuses, and then that gets filtered out into the community without much effort in attempting to falsify the available literature on that topic.

As I mentioned earlier, I am very much open to listening to others' viewpoints. That does not equate to my integrating them. I might. I might integrate some or all of a prevailing viewpoint that differs from mine. I've done it before (when I switched from being hard-core liberal to a moderate conservative). What's interesting is, thus far you and some others have called me out on being open to others' viewpoints, but I have yet to see others reciprocating here. I'm not expecting it, but I have noticed that as every time one of you call me out on this thread, we all end up parroting much of the same stuff. This just goes to speak to my other point, that this discussion will not be leading to any profound systemic changes. It ends up alienating ourselves from each other, which I don't like. I'd prefer to be able to disagree with folks, set appropriate boundaries when it gets to a certain point, and acknowledge we all care about people (which is why we got into this field), but there is more than one way to skin a cat (or whatever PETA-approved equivalent you'd like to substitute).

 

[WisNeuro]

That's fine. That's your approach. But I would hazard a guess and say that you have also probably refrained in responding to certain folks on certain threads in the past. Maybe I'm wrong. Either way, simply wanting to set a limitation or boundary in and of itself does not rise to the level of labeling someone as being contradictory or hypocritical. There would need to be other layers involved to firmly draw that inference about someone you barely know.

Sometimes, conversations don't have to be indefinite. They can have an ending, or, simply go onto another path as has happened in other threads, and frankly, what is happening now.

I will say it again - my decision on DEI stuff is not just based on data-driven studies, etc. I have mentioned my views on how psychological research is highly variable with issues pertaining to replication ad generalizability. As such, I am also aware that if you debate this out with someone who devotes most of their professional life to this topic, they will most likely push back with whatever "evidence" they have. For me, sometimes it doesn't have to make sense to others if my decision is based more so on moralistic or philosophical issues rather than being driven completely by science. We as social scientists are not the most well-respected amongst other scientists - there are things in psychology that have been published that I often shake my head at. But, because it was published, people drink the Koolaid and preach about it. It becomes popular on university campuses, and then that gets filtered out in to the community without much effort in attempting to falsify the available literature on that topic.

As I mentioned earlier, I am very much open to listening to others' viewpoints. That does not equate to my integrating them. I might. I might integrate some or all of prevailing viewpoint that differs from mine. I've done it before (when I switched from being hard-core liberal to a moderate conservative). What's interesting is, thus far you and some others have called me out on being open to others' viewpoints, but I have yet to see others reciprocating here. I'm not expecting it, but I have noticed that as every time one of you call me out on this thread, we all end up parroting much of the same stuff. This just goes to speak to my other point, that this discussion will not be leading to any profound systemic changes. It ends up alienating ourselves from each other, which I don't like. I'd prefer to be able to disagree with folks, set appropriate boundaries when it gets to a certain point, and acknowledge we all have care about people (which is why we got into this field), but there is more than one way to skin a cat (or whatever PETA-approved equivalent you'd like to substitute).

Of course I have refrained from responding to certain comments in certain threads. I don't respond to 100% of comments. Also, your not responding was not the bulk of the contradictory/hypocritical comments, your actual stated words were the issue. You just refused to clarify most of them when called out on it. Also, I don't recall anyone asking for studies or data analyses from you, merely consistency. Also, no one is asking you to integrate other viewpoints, they were merely asking you to clarify your own. I have no problem debating others. Meehl and I have gone at it time to time. Pragma and I have argued pretty heartily about some issues, but still meet up for drinks when we're both at neuro conferences. They're intellectually consistent though, and that's something I respect.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Of course I have refrained from responding to certain comments in certain threads. I don't respond to 100% of comments. Also, your not responding was not the bulk of the contradictory/hypocritical comments, your actual stated words were the issue. You just refused to clarify most of them when called out on it. Also, I don't recall anyone asking for studies or data analyses from you, merely consistency. Also, no one is asking you to integrate other viewpoints, they were merely asking you to clarify your own. I have no problem debating others. Meehl and I have gone at it time to time. Pragma and I have argued pretty heartily about some issues, but still meet up for drinks when we're both at neuro conferences. They're intellectually consistent though, and that's something I respect.

I am wondering how you are defining "intellectually consistent." As to your other point - to each their own. I hear what you are saying, but I think people have the right to choose whether or not they wish to continue a debate, even if it's simply opinion-oriented with no data, etc.

Maybe I am just intellectually inferior to you. I can accept that.

 

[WisNeuro]

Intellectually consistent would be defined as having consistency in your viewpoints across situations. Like, being a very strong advocate of free speech and open discussion, but supporting candidates and legislation that do the exact opposite would be intellectually inconsistent.

And yes, anyone can bow out of a debate at any time, that's always their choice. I've never said anything to the contrary.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

Intellectually consistent would be defined as having consistency in your viewpoints across situations. Like, being a very strong advocate of free speech and open discussion, but supporting candidates and legislation that do the exact opposite would be intellectually inconsistent.

And yes, anyone can bow out of a debate at any time, that's always their choice. I've never said anything to the contrary.

Where I am perceiving the "contrary" is that you think by my not continuing the debate, or speaking more to my points more than I already have, that I am somehow a hypocrite to the very thing I espoused to be an advocate for. That's what I perceived as you indicating that it was not appropriate for me to set that boundary, and for doing so, I have somehow gone against the very thing I stand for.

In regards to the intellectual consistency - this is a topic that involves several layers. It is not as simple as what people are reading regarding DeSantis's DEI decision. Also, people seem to have amnesia for instances where the tables have largely been turned where others have been fired from their jobs who leaned more conservative; who disagreed with COVID policies, etc. Granted, COVID policies and DEI are not the same topic, what they do represent are polarities on a hot topic where people's decision to either get the vaccine, wear masks, etc., or, to embrace DEI initiatives are highly influenced by peoples' morals. Depending who is in power, the prevailing popular viewpoints in the media, such decisions could mean being praised and being aligned with the "in group" vs. people being placed in the "out group," and viewed in a negative manner. When I read about how liberals are getting upset about free speech, I can't help but think "welcome to the club." Conservatives have also faced cancel culture just as often as liberals.

You will find that I interpret the available information we are seeing differently than probably yourself and others. That does not mean I am inconsistent with my views. I would argue they very much represent my view points, but maybe your interpretation of how I am interpreting these things is what's being called into question. That's fair. It's the reason why many liberals will look at conservatives in astonishment and vice versa. It's easier to label people as racist, prejudice, privileged, ignorant, etc. when their views either offend you, or go against yours.

Since 2019, basically all I heard is that I am privileged white racist, with internalized homophobia who gaslights people. I think I got all the fad terms to-date.

 

[ClinicalABA]

In regards to the intellectual consistency - this is a topic that involves several layers. It is not as simple as what people are reading regarding DeSantis's DEI decision. Also, people seem to have amnesia for instances where the tables have largely been turned where others have been fired from their jobs who leaned more conservative; who disagreed with COVID policies, etc. Granted, COVID policies and DEI are not the same topic, what they do represent are polarities on a hot topic where people's decision to either get the vaccine, wear masks, etc., or, to embrace DEI initiatives are highly influenced by peoples' morals. Depending who is in power, the prevailing popular viewpoints in the media, such decisions could mean being praised and being aligned with the "in group" vs. people being placed in the "out group," and viewed in a negative manner. When I read about how liberals are getting upset about free speech, I can't help but think "welcome to the club." Conservatives have also faced cancel culture just as often as liberals

This is the part that I have difficulties with in terms of the rationale for the support of DeSantis policy. It makes it seem like your suggesting that solution to the problem of people being fired for unjust reasons is to make it easier to fire (or more difficult to recruit/hire) people for other reasons. It just seems a vindictive rather than a logical solution. Equating it with COVID policy violation dismissals (even though you comment on it not being the same topic) makes it seem even more vindictive. I'd think that a policy which makes it MORE difficult to fire people for having different opinions than the majority would be the logical solution to the problem you identified. For arguments sake, I'd also leave out the covid stuff, as that introduces the issue (regardless of what side you're on) of direct threat to the physical wellbeing of others. It just makes it sound like the argument is "you guys fired someone who thinks like me for reasons I don't agree with, so we should fire someone who thinks like you for reasons you don't agree with." Even if we assume that liberals have enacted policies for the same reason, it doesn't make it a more logical/less vindictive solution.

Also- and I ask this seriously- how widespread are/were dismissals of faculty due "anti" DEI or "anti" covid positions, both nationally and in Florida? Perhaps one thing we can all agree on is that DeSantis policies on this are pretty extreme (I reviewed other red state governors posted platforms to inform this statement). If it's such an extreme issue, I'd expect at least some similar discussions happening at the executive level in other states. Instead I see a lot of boring stuff about economic development, job creation, luring business/tourism, and infrastructure.

Since 2019, basically all I heard is that I am privileged white racist, with internalized homophobia who gaslights people. I think I got all the fad terms to-date.

I hope you're not those things, because i feel those are horrible things to be/do. Even if you are, it has no direct bearing on the logical (damn, I use that word a lot) substance of your argument, In the same way that me being an overall swell-guy doesn't make my argument any more or less logical. Using ad hominems to weaken a position in an argument is just lazy. Not saying this has happened here, but "crying ad hominem" is also a pretty common, but also very lazy debate strategy.

Let's say Maura Healy- my governor, who is gay woman with a generally progressive policy that I support, proposed that the economics departments at state colleges and universities could not in any way teach anything that supports capitalism as a good or beneficial system. I'd be very much against that policy. If DeSantis proposed the same policy, I'd be very much against it. If Healy proposed defunding/criminalizing DEI and getting rid of tenure, I'd be very much against this policy.

I give you a lot of credit for sticking around and engaging. Your position is clearly different than the norm around here. I have no hopes of changing your position. One of my main purposes in engaging I such discussions is to actually identify the logical inconsistencies with my own, so I appreciate the practice.. Plus if you disappear I won't know how to find you to collect on that drink.