Flight Surgeon: A Brief Explanation?

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Fiend said:
If you wanna be a flight surgeon (AF), you don't need to mention it during the Match. You can do any internship, though transitional or one with lots of primary care will help you the most. If you match into a categorical residency, and you change your mind and want to be a flight surgeon, you can do that in the middle of your internship year. That's what I did, having left Pediatrics after my intern year. But, if you know you wanna be one, try to get your Flying Class II physical done as an MS-IV while on your ADT. That will save some time (especially if you need a waiver). I think AFPC will want you qualified and decided by Jan or Feb of your intern year. I pulled together my application in Jan-Feb of my intern year and barely got it though in time to get into the AMP class I needed (I needed a waiver for vision).
You can always go for a civilian transitional spot as military ones are hard to get I believe.

What if you're in a categorical residency (that's all the AF has for EM), and you want to be a FS after internship? Can you get back into the categorical residency starting pgy2 after the FS tour? Or can you finish the EM residency and then be a FS? Any people with EM/FS experience out there to share?

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djlucas1 said:
What if you're in a categorical residency (that's all the AF has for EM), and you want to be a FS after internship? Can you get back into the categorical residency starting pgy2 after the FS tour? Or can you finish the EM residency and then be a FS? Any people with EM/FS experience out there to share?
If you finish an entire residency, the AF will (almost) always make you serve in that specilaty for at least 2 years before becoming a flight surgeon. Alternatively, if you become a FS after just an internship then you will have to serve in that capacity for at least 2 years before being able to reapply to the GME board. Within the military, it is fairly easy to get back at the PGY-2 level...in the civilian sector it is more difficult since they don't frequently have a lot of people leaving after just an internship.
 
This may be a stupid question but why the hell are you called "flight surgeons" when you don't do any real surgery? I guess it sounds better than Flight medicine or flight doc, but I am missing something here?
 
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From my understanding, the term dates from the World War I era. I'm not versed enough in history to tell you why they called them by that title back then, however.
 
BigBopper said:
This may be a stupid question but why the hell are you called "flight surgeons" when you don't do any real surgery? I guess it sounds better than Flight medicine or flight doc, but I am missing something here?

Briefly,

Way back in the day (pre-Napoleoinic wars, middle ages-like) the medics that accompanied armies into battle were known as "feldshers" [sp?] & "chiurgeons" [sp?]. They were both of the "barber" lineage, not necessarily academically trained like the physicians of the time. As you know, the military likes its traditions, and from these roots we get the official titles for certain military physicians regardless of their post-graduate medical training. The term "flight surgeon" is just one example. Another is the title of "battalion surgeon" in army combat units. All of the battalion surgeons I knew were either FP or EM docs.

HTH,
 
How competitive is Naval FS program? Basically, what are the odds of getting slotted for FS after GME 1, if you are qualified?

I think this was asked before, but I couldn't find a definite answer... are physicians allowed to become FS with a refractive eye surgeries like LASIK?
 
JKDMed said:
Someone mentioned that the Navy wasn't doing the dual designator thing anymore. Can anyone confirm or supply a link? I was really hoping to do this .

As was posted earlier, the policy is that dual designator people are aviators who then become docs.....
however, there are some neat opportunities out there depending on where you go. For example, I am an instructor in a helicopter flight training squadron. Our flight surgeon is going through the entire student syllabus and is going to get a helo-only naval aviator designation. They are even talking about sending him through the Instructor Training syllabus and then allowing him to train Student naval aviators.
If you are the kind of flight surgeon that USMC jetguy talked about, then the aviators in your squadron are going to do whatever they can to hook you up with great deals.
 
Hi all,

I have a quick question for anyone that has gone through water surivival training in the USAF for flight surgery. I'm a fairly petit female (5'2''), i'm a fairly decent swimmer, but my boots, if immersed in water would be a drag on me while in the water. i read the navy is required to swim one mile with the boots on, is that the same for the usaf? because that would really rule me out of flight surgery. thanks, Yellowrose.
 
YellowRose said:
Hi all,

I have a quick question for anyone that has gone through water surivival training in the USAF for flight surgery. I'm a fairly petit female (5'2''), i'm a fairly decent swimmer, but my boots, if immersed in water would be a drag on me while in the water. i read the navy is required to swim one mile with the boots on, is that the same for the usaf? because that would really rule me out of flight surgery. thanks, Yellowrose.

I've done water survival at Pensacola and then multiple local refreshers (the short class that sounds like what somebody described earlier). You don't have to be a strong swimmer. They especially would not let a flt surgeon wash out for swimming IMO. Don't worry about it.
 
I am sorry, does anyone have a reply to these questions?
Thanks,
Crazy Cozak

CrazyCozak said:
How competitive is Naval FS program? Basically, what are the odds of getting slotted for FS after GME 1, if you are qualified?

I think this was asked before, but I couldn't find a definite answer... are physicians allowed to become FS with a refractive eye surgeries like LASIK?
 
BeatArmy said:
I am an instructor in a helicopter flight training squadron. Our flight surgeon is going through the entire student syllabus and is going to get a helo-only naval aviator designation. They are even talking about sending him through the Instructor Training syllabus and then allowing him to train Student naval aviators.

Hey helo-bubba:

You any relation?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/member.php?u=33219

You look very similar!!
 
Hello and thank you to all you Navy docs who take the time to answer our questions. Here's one (ok, a few) I probably shouldn't ask....

What are the physical requirements for Navy flight surgeons? Are the details of the actual Class-whatever flight physical available anywhere?
Specifically, will any record of mental health care disqualify you automatically, and/or simply make it highly unlikely that you'd be selected in the application process? Obviously I'd guess that if you've been diagnosed as floridly psychotic at any time that might hurt your chances ....

Is there a maximum age for applying to be a Navy FS?

I have heard that undersea medicine folks have a harder-than-usual PRT sort of requirement -- do flight surgeons have any extra physical fitness requirements?

Thanks for any answers/advice/info you can provide!
 
Globus P said:
I understand your questions, as I had the same, but ASP is a extra pay designed, approved by Congress, to help close the pay gap between military and civilian docs. You get it each July and there's an application for it, that's why its not on the DFAS site for docs.

Yep, just as it sounds, if not on internship or residency, you get the extra 15K a year, regardless of your commitment. Yes you get it while a GMO, FS, DMO, etc, even before finishing residency. Sounds strange I know, but that's how it is.

Maybe GMO52, NavyDiveDoc, or r90t can chime in for verification.

Right on. Also, they'll prorate the bonus for partial years if you head back to residency off schedule. Just give 'em lots of warning in special pay land.
 
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CrazyCozak said:
How competitive is Naval FS program? Basically, what are the odds of getting slotted for FS after GME 1, if you are qualified?

I think this was asked before, but I couldn't find a definite answer... are physicians allowed to become FS with a refractive eye surgeries like LASIK?

LASIK is "wavierable." Just takes some paperwork, but much less of a problem than it used to be. In fact, a sailor of mine just got a waiver to get into BUD/s despite having LASIK and an ablated bypass tract.

FS is slightly competitive. In my year, there were about 10 more applicants than spots (something like 75 slots, if memory serves). DMO is significantly more competitive. The real competition is within each GMO community for the desirable billets.
 
If you want to be a Flight Surgeon and do Aerospace Medicine, you should do the HPSP program. It is much harder to get a FAP for Aerospace Medicine since Civilian programs may not offer the same things we do at the Navy's Aerospace Medicine institute. Look up that stuff from the Iwakuni doc. His replies are extremely focused and accurate. We don't know as much about AF and Army, but I do know that the Army and AF place people in the Navy's aerospace medicine residency.


themerlin said:
Wow, I'm so glad I found a thread on flight surgeons! :clap:

I'm currently MSI, and my goal is to be a flight surgeon at NASA. I've long thought about going into aerospace medicine through the military first (Navy or Air Force), since I'd get great training and experience, plus the financial support. But since I only want to do aerospace medicine, I'm hesitant to sign up and ultimately be forced to choose a different specialty because the military's needs come first. For those of you who are currently in the military, what's your assessment on how likely I'd get what I want if I join? I'm talking about HPSP of course.

Another possibility I've found is the FAP program. My understanding is that you join during your residency so your specialty is set. I haven't read much else about this program, so I'd appreciate any information anyone has...
 
There are usually 70 slots for Flight Surgery and 20 for Undersea Medicine. Both are pretty competitive, but you can contact the NOMI/NAMI folks during your internship when they do their visits to the training hospitals in Sept. You can make contact and demonstrate your interest, and if you are qualified academically (and are not a behavior problem), then you will most likely get selected. Behavior problems like whining and moaning, not getting stuff done on time, and blowing off assignments are show stoppers for flight surgery. For obvious reasons. LASIK surgery may be a disqualifier, but depending on what was done, how etc. you may be able to get a waiver. The waiver authority is a BUMED, and he is excellent, and you will get your answer fast. You have to be selected first in order for them to request the waiver.

CrazyCozak said:
I am sorry, does anyone have a reply to these questions?
Thanks,
Crazy Cozak
 
BigBopper said:
This may be a stupid question but why the hell are you called "flight surgeons" when you don't do any real surgery? I guess it sounds better than Flight medicine or flight doc, but I am missing something here?


Well, the Surgeon-General of the US isn't a general (he's an admiral in the USPHS), and doesn't do any surgery.

Likewise, the Attorney-General isn't a general.

And Army units have (or had until fairly recently) Brigade Surgeons that don't even have to be physicians (it's an administrative position).
 
GMO_52 said:
LASIK is "wavierable." Just takes some paperwork, but much less of a problem than it used to be. In fact, a sailor of mine just got a waiver to get into BUD/s despite having LASIK and an ablated bypass tract.

FS is slightly competitive. In my year, there were about 10 more applicants than spots (something like 75 slots, if memory serves). DMO is significantly more competitive. The real competition is within each GMO community for the desirable billets.


The AF SG is all happy about wavefront lasik now - they're even considering offering it to pilots with good vision (to make it even better).

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123009161
 
MoosePilot said:
I've done water survival at Pensacola and then multiple local refreshers (the short class that sounds like what somebody described earlier). You don't have to be a strong swimmer. They especially would not let a flt surgeon wash out for swimming IMO. Don't worry about it.


Water survival was a blast - I did it at Key West. The best part was being left in my raft for a couple of hours....
 
flighterdoc said:
Water survival was a blast - I did it at Key West. The best part was being left in my raft for a couple of hours....

I really enjoyed mine, yeah. The evenings were fun, but the time in the water was also fun. I liked the little raft, too. It was neat to take pictures from what is basically a really odd angle. It was chilly, but really relaxing.
 
Do you mean that he actually gets stick time? Or does he/she just ride around in empty seats?

The reason I ask is that I'm going to be entering medical school as an ATP rated pilot after a 10 year airline career in which I've flown a half dozen heavy jet transports and have accumulated around 6000 hours of total flight time.

If being a flight surgeon is going to get me stick time as well as patient care opportunities - sign me up!
 
GMO_52 said:
LASIK is "wavierable." Just takes some paperwork, but much less of a problem than it used to be. In fact, a sailor of mine just got a waiver to get into BUD/s despite having LASIK and an ablated bypass tract.

FS is slightly competitive. In my year, there were about 10 more applicants than spots (something like 75 slots, if memory serves). DMO is significantly more competitive. The real competition is within each GMO community for the desirable billets.

LASIK is not waiverable for flight surgeons in the Air Force. An alternative procedure is PRK which is waiverable.
 
MoosePilot said:
I really enjoyed mine, yeah. The evenings were fun, but the time in the water was also fun. I liked the little raft, too. It was neat to take pictures from what is basically a really odd angle. It was chilly, but really relaxing.


I did it in July - it was warm, especially wearing the bag. Just sat right back and took a 3-hour cruise. Got a great farmer tan, too.
 
Old_Mil said:
Do you mean that he actually gets stick time? Or does he/she just ride around in empty seats?

The reason I ask is that I'm going to be entering medical school as an ATP rated pilot after a 10 year airline career in which I've flown a half dozen heavy jet transports and have accumulated around 6000 hours of total flight time.

If being a flight surgeon is going to get me stick time as well as patient care opportunities - sign me up!

In the Air Force cargo world he generally rides in a jump seat. It may be different in fighters or in other services. There's a pilot-physician program in the Air Force. Those guys are fully fuctioning pilots as well as docs. I don't know if you can get into that through a civilian background, though.
 
Hi there, Im new here. Greatly interested in the FS program. Just askin...do you need to get a commision either in the Navy of the Air Force before entering the program? I get it here that you just apply after internship year then get into the program no more bootcamp? Thanks...
 
How come DMO is more competitive than navy FS? FS seem to get a lot of cool perks. But DMO only get to dive? And it's not like DMOs do combat diving, their dives are similar to civilian recreational dives, or am i wrong?

Also if you have 4 yeras for hpsp, could you do 1 tour in DMO+1tour in FS? i.e. 2years each including 6months each in training, or the training would add another year?
thanks
 
mumiitroll said:
How come DMO is more competitive than navy FS? FS seem to get a lot of cool perks. But DMO only get to dive? And it's not like DMOs do combat diving, their dives are similar to civilian recreational dives, or am i wrong?

Also if you have 4 yeras for hpsp, could you do 1 tour in DMO+1tour in FS? i.e. 2years each including 6months each in training, or the training would add another year?
thanks

the FS and DMO training, as far as i know, don't add up against your ADSO. we had several graduating pediatric residents go to FS billets, and are taking the course soon-- no mention of extending their time in service.

--your friendly neighborhood non-FS caveman
 
Homunculus said:
the FS and DMO training, as far as i know, don't add up against your ADSO. we had several graduating pediatric residents go to FS billets, and are taking the course soon-- no mention of extending their time in service.

--your friendly neighborhood non-FS caveman

but doesnt it say that after finishing FS course you have a minimum of 2 years to work for some particular unit? For DMO they said min of 2 years including the course itself. So if say you had 1year left at the end of training, you'd have to extend for another year... Also some in these threads have said that they accepted 3year long assignments as FS. Here is some info about FS: http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/NAMI/Academics/flightsurgeon.htm
FLIGHT SURGEON ASSIGNMENTS

A minimum two-year utilization tour is required after training. This allows the new flight surgeon time to practice and perfect their newly acquired skills. There are more than 260 flight surgeon billets in Spain, Italy, Japan, Bermuda, the United Kingdom, and all over the United States. Normally, a list of available billets is announced about midway through the six-month course.
 
wow, i just read that you need normal depth perception to attend flight surgeon school?? does it mean that you can't get a waiver if you see with 1 eye?
 
BeatArmy said:
As was posted earlier, the policy is that dual designator people are aviators who then become docs.....
however, there are some neat opportunities out there depending on where you go. For example, I am an instructor in a helicopter flight training squadron. Our flight surgeon is going through the entire student syllabus and is going to get a helo-only naval aviator designation. They are even talking about sending him through the Instructor Training syllabus and then allowing him to train Student naval aviators.
If you are the kind of flight surgeon that USMC jetguy talked about, then the aviators in your squadron are going to do whatever they can to hook you up with great deals.
How much payback time does he accrue and how long is his flight training school?
 
mumiitroll said:
How come DMO is more competitive than navy FS? FS seem to get a lot of cool perks. But DMO only get to dive? And it's not like DMOs do combat diving, their dives are similar to civilian recreational dives, or am i wrong?

Also if you have 4 yeras for hpsp, could you do 1 tour in DMO+1tour in FS? i.e. 2years each including 6months each in training, or the training would add another year?
thanks

Dive training is reputed to be more difficult than flight, partly because physically you have to do everything on land and in the water. If you are not a strong swimmer, you should start practicing now with a legitimate masters' swim club. Dive medicine is not glorified scuba, although you certainly will have plenty of great opportunities. There are only 20 selections for DMO and 75 for flight, so the combination of numbers and intensity is probably where the more competitive thing comes from. Dive medical officers learn more about hyperbarics and flight surgeons get aerospace physiology. One group has too much atmospheric pressure and the other not enough, and all of the medical focus follows along those lines. One of my residents got to be the medical officer at the Titanic site one year - one of the bennies of being a certified dive medical officer. After internship you will receive 6 months of intensive physical training, which is the rate limiting step in becoming a dive medical officer. Your typical tour after that will be with the submarine groups - you are not usually assigned to a submarine itself (too small), but to a group of submarines where you supervise the independent duty corpsmen for the most part. You can also be assigned to SEAL teams, underwater demolition folks, etc., but most of the heavy lifting is done by specially trained corpsmen and you do the supervising. Duty stations include San Diego, Pearl Harbor, panama city, New London, Coronado, etc. You cannot go from dive to flight without doing the flight training. The percentage of people who start flight and finish is better than that for dive. Again, look at the swimming and running standards before you apply. A lot of your peers at dive school will be studs (both male and female) and I think that competitive rugby playing as an extracurricular activity is overrepresented among dive medicine applicants.
Your minimal activity tour after 6 months of dive training is 24 months, so most people extend to 30 months to get back in academic cycle. It is also true that any GMO tour improves your chances of getting competitive residencies in the Navy, but your performance in those jobs also counts for something. So - if you whine and moan throughout your GMO tour, there will be other intagibles that factor into successfully competing for anything.
Finally, yes, a lot of people do their 3 year GMO tours, then extend one year and get out. On the other hand, people who do dive and flight usually have a pretty good time and interface with "real Navy" and therefore apply for residencies, stay in, etc.
I hope this addresses most of your concerns!
 
mumiitroll said:
wow, i just read that you need normal depth perception to attend flight surgeon school?? does it mean that you can't get a waiver if you see with 1 eye?

If you only see with one eye, getting into flight surgery is not going to be your only problem. Most surgical specialties like you to have depth perception, and certainly most of the patients you are operating on also want you to have normal depth perception. There are lots of medical waivers given for medical officers in general, but some conditions are not waiverable.
 
Soccer Doc said:
Dive training is reputed to be more difficult than flight, partly because physically you have to do everything on land and in the water. If you are not a strong swimmer, you should start practicing now with a legitimate masters' swim club. Dive medicine is not glorified scuba, although you certainly will have plenty of great opportunities. There are only 20 selections for DMO and 75 for flight, so the combination of numbers and intensity is probably where the more competitive thing comes from. Dive medical officers learn more about hyperbarics and flight surgeons get aerospace physiology. One group has too much atmospheric pressure and the other not enough, and all of the medical focus follows along those lines. One of my residents got to be the medical officer at the Titanic site one year - one of the bennies of being a certified dive medical officer. After internship you will receive 6 months of intensive physical training, which is the rate limiting step in becoming a dive medical officer. Your typical tour after that will be with the submarine groups - you are not usually assigned to a submarine itself (too small), but to a group of submarines where you supervise the independent duty corpsmen for the most part. You can also be assigned to SEAL teams, underwater demolition folks, etc., but most of the heavy lifting is done by specially trained corpsmen and you do the supervising. Duty stations include San Diego, Pearl Harbor, panama city, New London, Coronado, etc. You cannot go from dive to flight without doing the flight training. The percentage of people who start flight and finish is better than that for dive. Again, look at the swimming and running standards before you apply. A lot of your peers at dive school will be studs (both male and female) and I think that competitive rugby playing as an extracurricular activity is overrepresented among dive medicine applicants.
Your minimal activity tour after 6 months of dive training is 24 months, so most people extend to 30 months to get back in academic cycle. It is also true that any GMO tour improves your chances of getting competitive residencies in the Navy, but your performance in those jobs also counts for something. So - if you whine and moan throughout your GMO tour, there will be other intagibles that factor into successfully competing for anything.
Finally, yes, a lot of people do their 3 year GMO tours, then extend one year and get out. On the other hand, people who do dive and flight usually have a pretty good time and interface with "real Navy" and therefore apply for residencies, stay in, etc.
I hope this addresses most of your concerns!

Thanks! this was pretty thorough. I think based on such description, i like both, but would find fs more desirable. But i also take it that if i wanted to do 1 tour as fs and 1tour as dmo, i'd have to spend 5 years in, since it would be close to 12months in training and min. of 2 years each tour...
 
Soccer Doc said:
If you only see with one eye, getting into flight surgery is not going to be your only problem. Most surgical specialties like you to have depth perception, and certainly most of the patients you are operating on also want you to have normal depth perception. There are lots of medical waivers given for medical officers in general, but some conditions are not waiverable.
Thanks. Yes i heard of that, and I would avoid fields like Ophtalmology or Neurosurgery.. I think in other fields like Ortho you do it based on touch/orientations... But either way it's too early for me to consider any specialties right now and if i had to choose, i'd be more interested in being an internist right now.
Also i can easily put a thread through a needle hole from 1st try. and i read that depth perception is only needed when looking at objects <10ft away. that is why FAA doesn't require depth perception. The only aviation task that a person lacking depth perception might struggle with would be flight formation in jets.
 
Soccer Doc said:
One group has too much atmospheric pressure and the other not enough, and all of the medical focus follows along those lines.
I like that.
 
Can you do Diving/Flight Surgeon with a foreign medical school MD if you are board certified in the states?
 
is there a maximum age limit to become a Flight Surgeon? i ask because i'm a non-traditional medical student who won't be the typical 22 year old starting med school. i'll be like 29.
 
is there a maximum age limit to become a Flight Surgeon? i ask because i'm a non-traditional medical student who won't be the typical 22 year old starting med school. i'll be like 29.

We just sent a 60 y/o through Flight Med. If you are physically qualified, you are good to go.
 
GREAT! sounds good to me, Is it really alot of fun?
 
Was it the Air Force or the Navy that sent the 60 year old through ?
I didn't know you could be that old and just start service.
 
Was it the Air Force or the Navy that sent the 60 year old through ?
I didn't know you could be that old and just start service.
I had a 58 year old in my Navy FS class.
 
that's amazing! I was thinkiing I might need to rush through this but I've even thought of re-designating active duty and going ahead with Aviation if I can and then going back for the dual-designation program. (I'm a reserve Ensign right now) I just swore in recently, and have not even drilled yet so not sure how they'll take to that but if it is possible it would be amazing and I don't think I'd regret it. mixing military with flying and then adding medicine... now that's a nice mix !!! :)
 
If there are any AF Flight Surgeons out there, could you write out what a typical day is like for you? Or maybe outline a typical week? I'm an M2 interested in flight surgery...but I'm a little worried about losing my clinical skills. Or maybe more accurately, I'm concerned I won't be developing my clinical skills when my colleagues are out there doing just that. Do you have any insight into this?
 
Hi guys,

I've just recently been interested in pursuing aerospace medicine, although I don't quite understand the process to become one yet. I was reading the thread (didn't finish it yet) and came across someone mentioning that aerospace medicine is a second residency? Does that mean that you would have to specialize in something else before you do aerospace medicine?
 
Hi guys,

I've just recently been interested in pursuing aerospace medicine, although I don't quite understand the process to become one yet. I was reading the thread (didn't finish it yet) and came across someone mentioning that aerospace medicine is a second residency? Does that mean that you would have to specialize in something else before you do aerospace medicine?
You don't have to and the guy who runs the residency thinks that it is unnecessary. I couldn't disagree more. Train as a real doctor first.
 
Technically you could do aerospace med right out of medical school. The training consists of a one-year internship in anything, an MPH, and then a one-year training program in aerospace medicine. The clinical training seems a little light to me---and to most other physicians. I think that you should do a full residency in something like internal medicine or emergency med, then pursue the MPH and aerospace med program.
 
Flight surgeons aren't pilots* or surgeons** Aerospace medicine is the biggest boondoggle I've ever seen, and I've see a few.

*Can't fly military aircraft without a real Naval Aviator at the dual controls.
** It's possible that a surgeon trained in aerospace medicine, but I never met one.
 
Flight surgeons aren't pilots* or surgeons** Aerospace medicine is the biggest boondoggle I've ever seen, and I've see a few.

*Can't fly military aircraft without a real Naval Aviator at the dual controls.
** It's possible that a surgeon trained in aerospace medicine, but I never met one.

So what do you say about a Navy Surgeon General who is neither a General nor a surgeon. ...Flight Surgeon is based on the historical definition of a surgeon which does not necessarily indicate one who performs surgery.

(And I agree with your boondoggle sentiment, but not because of the name)



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There have been several surgeon generals that were surgeons.
 
There have been several surgeon generals that were surgeons.

And one who was a nurse.....despite your lack of running into one I have certainly seen surgeons as Flight Surgeons. The most common place I saw this was when Guard/Reserve doc's joined us on deployment. But that wasn't really my point....


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