Fired Hopkins doctor seeks $24M

[PharmaTope]

I want to know how many of those residents who "left/withdrew" were pretty much fired (i.e. told to leave or else they'd be fired). There is probably a fair number.

you are probably right. I am sure there is a large number. freakin scary as ****!

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[PharmaTope]

It looks like the ACGME reports 279 residents were fired in 2008-9.

http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/annRep/an_2008-09AnnRep.pdf

look how many withdrew though. you gotta consider how many withdrew or would be fired. seems like a fair number, that is actually a lot and very scary!

Wouldn't it be interesting to know the causes of death? How many car accidents, how many suicides, things like that. The only residents I have ever known who have died were accidents or horrible rapidly progressing cancers.

i'd like to know how many were car accidents and such. lack of sleep and driving home or to the hospital.....

 

[gutonc]

look how many withdrew though. you gotta consider how many withdrew or would be fired. seems like a fair number, that is actually a lot and very scary!

Given the total # of residents in training at any one time, ~1000 who withdrew in a year is not that many. There are at least 100,000 residents in training in the US right now (figure 30K/y and a minimum of 3y training with many programs requiring more). So less than 1% quit. This doesn't speak to the reasons for their withdrawal, just that the numbers aren't really as stark as you make them seem.

i'd like to know how many were car accidents and such. lack of sleep and driving home or to the hospital.....

Well, you'll never get that data, but as has been discussed above, that rate is WAY lower than the death rate in the US for ages 25-34. Using the 100K # from above (mostly because it's a nice round # and useful for epidemiological data, but also because it's a reasonable guesstimate of the number of residents), that puts the death rate for residents @ ~20/100K. The US death rate for the age group that includes MOST residents (although not me) (25-34) is ~200/100K (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm). They don't break down MVA death rate by age, but for the total population it's ~15/100K and I would bet that the distribution skews young (with a smaller bimodal peak of old people). So even if all 20 of those residents who died, did so because of a fiery, sleep deprivation-induced car crash (unlikely), that's pretty close to the expected rate for that age group.

The numbers in this chart are basically useless because there's no denominator. If the denominator is 1000, then it looks pretty ugly. Since the denominator is likely 100+x that, it's a lot more reasonable. Sucks for those people, but people get fired from jobs all the time and just because you're a doctor, doesn't mean you can't get canned for doing a crappy job.

 

[glade]

The numbers in this chart are basically useless because there's no denominator. If the denominator is 1000, then it looks pretty ugly. Since the denominator is likely 100+x that, it's a lot more reasonable. Sucks for those people, but people get fired from jobs all the time and just because you're a doctor, doesn't mean you can't get canned for doing a crappy job.

Yes, but in your analysis, you basically ignored all of reality. Do people get fired all the time from all sorts of jobs? Sure. But to get those jobs, do they give away a decade of their life and automatically (i.e., with NO other option) undergo debt that, like a Catch-22, they can only disperse if allowed to complete training? No. Not ever. And then throw in the fact that if you get fired, you have essentially a 0% chance of ever getting hired again. And that allows all sorts of institutional abuse of residents, so even if you DON'T get fired you're getting raped every day, something that wouldn't be tolerated in any other job or where you could just leave if you found it intolerable. Keep in mind that even if you're NOT getting fired and just think your residency blows ass, your chances of being allowed to leave are slim, relatively speaking. How's that for normal? Then throw in the utter subjectivity of most firings and you're really rocking. Oh, don't forget that most institutions are breaking at least SOME laws and regulations and the hypocrisy would make you puke down your own throat.

 

[tegs15]

Does anyone ever know what happened with the Serrano Case?

 

[blaithnaid]

still in litigation

 

[dragonfly99]

For the next 5-10 years I'll bet.

 

[Roofie]

What is happening here is bad for the profession. It may unleash a chain of events that could lead to more suffering.

The indifference that most attendings feel about the topic needs to change. Most physicians go through a plethora of negative feelings when they are sued and lose. However, even if they lose a malpractice suit, they can still practice medicine and go on with their careers.

A resident that is forced out of residency training feels pain much worse because he will face systemic discrimination from other physicians that make continuing in the profession unsavory.

From anger and suffering comes litigation.

There is a story in the south that malpractice litigation involved a beautiful woman and an OB-GYN physician. About four or five decades ago, malpractice litigation was very uncommon. A lawyer was deeply in love with his beautiful wife. However, a doctor had his eyes on her. He pursued her and had an affair with her. The lawyer became enraged but could not come after the physician who banged his wife. So in his search for justice or veangeance he pioneered malpractice cases against OB-GYN physicians. The number of successful cases againsts OB's increased dramatically. Then other lawyers got involved and it was off to the races.

There is another story of a lawyer who lost his daughter due to an unfortunate chain of events that led to an undiagnosed serotonin syndrome. He waged a war against the profession and sparked an impetus that helped lead to the work hour restrictions that all residents enjoy today.

Many of the residents that are being terminated are still clinically competent. If the profession does nothing to rein in these abusive practices, then it will risk that these disenfranchised physicians will use their skills against the profession. Pain begets pain. When enough of it is spread around the profession, then maybe things will change.

But the profession is powerful and has the resources to buy influence. The endgame remains uncertain.

 

[Ronin2258]

What is happening here is bad for the profession. It may unleash a chain of events that could lead to more suffering.

The indifference that most attendings feel about the topic needs to change. Most physicians go through a plethora of negative feelings when they are sued and lose. However, even if they lose a malpractice suit, they can still practice medicine and go on with their careers.

A resident that is forced out of residency training feels pain much worse because he will face systemic discrimination from other physicians that make continuing in the profession unsavory.

From anger and suffering comes litigation.

There is a story in the south that malpractice litigation involved a beautiful woman and an OB-GYN physician. About four or five decades ago, malpractice litigation was very uncommon. A lawyer was deeply in love with his beautiful wife. However, a doctor had his eyes on her. He pursued her and had an affair with her. The lawyer became enraged but could not come after the physician who banged his wife. So in his search for justice or veangeance he pioneered malpractice cases against OB-GYN physicians. The number of successful cases againsts OB's increased dramatically. Then other lawyers got involved and it was off to the races.

There is another story of a lawyer who lost his daughter due to an unfortunate chain of events that led to an undiagnosed serotonin syndrome. He waged a war against the profession and sparked an impetus that helped lead to the work hour restrictions that all residents enjoy today.

Many of the residents that are being terminated are still clinically competent. If the profession does nothing to rein in these abusive practices, then it will risk that these disenfranchised physicians will use their skills against the profession. Pain begets pain. When enough of it is spread around the profession, then maybe things will change.

But the profession is powerful and has the resources to buy influence. The endgame remains uncertain.

Great post.

So in other words, and I suspect that this is what you are getting at: "Quality improve the profession or someone outside of the profession will do it for us in a way that will hurt all in the profession?" If that is the case, this needs to be addressed far more aggressively at the levels where differences can be made. Recent events have shown certain fields (banking, etc.) are incapable of policing themselves. If we are proven the same way to the public, a group of mostly lawyers will be at us again, only this time they won't sue us; they will make laws that will be damaging to the lot of us.

Question is, how do we do it? A lot of old-school guard don't see this happening at all (no offense to the more progressive people here.) I suspect that it was the reason that the above two incidents happen; they thought they were invincible, and they were proven wrong. Now everyone is in a tiz.

 

[Apollyon]

There is another story of a lawyer who lost his daughter due to an unfortunate chain of events that led to an undiagnosed serotonin syndrome. He waged a war against the profession and sparked an impetus that helped lead to the work hour restrictions that all residents enjoy today.

The guy was a "journalist" (er, he was a newspaper reporter). Not a lawyer. Sidney Zion was the father, and he wrote an op-ed piece published in The New York Times where he said his drug-using daughter was "murdered" (yeah, good choice of words, there).

 

[glade]

I googled for her name and if you look at the Wikipedia entry it says nothing about her being a drug user. Actually, it says nothing about her at all, other than she was eighteen years old. The remainder of the article was about the residents and attendings who took care of her. But on another link, it says she was a known cocaine user, which would be a totally different story. I wonder if Sidney Zion expunged her records from Wikipedia? Maybe he should write an expose on how negligent parenting contributes to the rampant use of drugs in susceptible teens.

 

[glade]

There is a story in the south that malpractice litigation involved a beautiful woman and an OB-GYN physician. About four or five decades ago, malpractice litigation was very uncommon. A lawyer was deeply in love with his beautiful wife. However, a doctor had his eyes on her. He pursued her and had an affair with her. The lawyer became enraged but could not come after the physician who banged his wife. So in his search for justice or veangeance he pioneered malpractice cases against OB-GYN physicians. The number of successful cases againsts OB's increased dramatically. Then other lawyers got involved and it was off to the races.

This sounds like an urban legend to me because lawyers care much more about money than their wives. I mean, look at John Edwards, who made millions from suing Ob-gyns for bogus cases of cerebral palsy and was cheating on his wife. Now that's a lawyer: giving everyone around him the shaft. Also, using more makeup than a transvestite hooker.

 

[Hernandez]

I googled for her name and if you look at the Wikipedia entry it says nothing about her being a drug user. Actually, it says nothing about her at all, other than she was eighteen years old. The remainder of the article was about the residents and attendings who took care of her. But on another link, it says she was a known cocaine user, which would be a totally different story. I wonder if Sidney Zion expunged her records from Wikipedia? Maybe he should write an expose on how negligent parenting contributes to the rampant use of drugs in susceptible teens.

If you google more you'll find that during te trial it was testimony that she was cocaine positive on her post-mortum testing

 

[dragonfly99]

roofie and all:
Does anyone know whether there are stats on the percentage of residents fired in the past few years, versus years ago (say 20-30 years ago?). Are there really more residents being fired now, or are fired residents just more vocal now or more likely to fight back? Or are the conseqences of being fired just larger now (because of more student loans, probably a lot less job opportunities because now it's very hard to work even as a GP without finishing some sort of residency, etc.), driving fired residents to act more desperate and be more angry.

 

[JackADeli]

roofie and all:
Does anyone know whether there are stats on the percentage of residents fired in the past few years, versus years ago (say 20-30 years ago?). Are there really more residents being fired now, or are fired residents just more vocal now or more likely to fight back?...

I do not know when the pyramid model ended. But, if you were pyramid out..... in essence fired. That system was built with a structure designed to fire significant proportions. I think it would be a difficult comparison.

 

[Samoa]

It looks like the ACGME reports 279 residents were fired in 2008-9.

http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/annRep/an_2008-09AnnRep.pdf

Well, since they make a distinction between residents who transfer to another program, and residents who simply withdrew from their program, and few people would choose to leave one residency without another one lined up, I think it's fair to assume that nearly all of the 1,065 residents who withdrew did so in lieu of termination.

I do wonder how many of the 1,532 residents who transferred programs also changed specialties, and how much of that was by choice?

There are about 110,000 residents, currently, so it looks to me like about 1-2% of residents per year are in essence being fired.

That's a lot. Most hospital HR departments would start asking questions about any manager who fired that many employees a year, or who had that many leave under adverse circumstances.

 

[Llenroc]

No good Hopkins sons of bitches. Always in it for the money.

 

[michaelrack]

l



i'd like to know how many were car accidents and such. lack of sleep and driving home or to the hospital.....

I'd like to know how many of the deaths were suicides.

 

[pifu]

In the lawsuit, Fischer said the retaliation continued after she left and interfered with her new position; she alleged UT changed the original offer, requiring her to take a pay cut and not guaranteeing she would be named an associate professor.
She resigned her position in June 2007 for a professorship at University of Texas Southwestern (UT).

woman
8 years M.D, PhD Top
6 years surgery,
2 years fellow

8 years suffering sex-bully, blabla,

forced out, bitter lawsuit against Hopkin, end up asistant professor in another shool

====================================
Johns Hopkins, surgeon settle gender-bias litigation.
Publication: Daily Record (Baltimore, MD)
Date: Friday, November 7 2008
A bitter lawsuit filed earlier this year by a former professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine against the school and two of her supervisors, claiming a pattern of gender-based harassment, has been settled under undisclosed terms.
Dr. Anne C. Fischer, a pediatric surgeon, filed the suit in April in U.S. District Court in Baltimore. Backing up her claims with Hopkins' own reports on gender bias, she spelled out what she claimed was an eight-year pattern of discrimination and sex-based bullying, and harassment, followed only by retaliation when she complained. The school, in turn, called her behavior abusive and erratic.
Attorneys for both sides confirmed the settlement on Thursday.
Dr. Fischer has been a productive surgeon-scientist at Hopkins, and her recruitment to [University of Texas Southwestern] reflects positively on Dr. Fischer's Hopkins training, Hopkins said in a statement.
Fischer, a Hopkins graduate, joined the staff in 1999 as a junior faculty member after finishing her pediatric surgery fellowship at Harvard Medical School. Her lawsuit claimed the school allowed an environment that regularly featured sexually inappropriate and unprofessional conduct by male employees.
When she complained, Fischer claimed, she received no help and wasretaliated against. She resigned her position in June 2007 for a professorship at University of Texas Southwestern (UT).
In the lawsuit, Fischer said the retaliation continued after she left and interfered with her new position; she alleged UT changed the original offer, requiring her to take a pay cut and not guaranteeing she would be named an associate professor.
Hopkins disputed the claims and, in a court document, said Fischerengaged in and was counseled about her abusive, erratic and demeaning behavior toward fellow physicians, nurses and staff. The school also argued that Fischer failed to meet the obligations to fulfill a National Institutes of Health federal grant.
In August(2008), Hopkins unsuccessfully sought dismissal of Fischer's claims for intentional interference with contract and defamation, two of the nine counts in the lawsuit that could have exposed the school to punitive damages.
A settlement conference was held on Wednesday, November 2008.
On Thursday, Fischer's attorneys, Tom Gies and Betsy Miller of Crowell & Moring LLP in Washington, declined to disclose the terms of the settlement but said the case had been resolved on mutually agreeable terms.
In its prepared statement, the school concurred the lawsuit was resolved amicably, with none of the parties admitting fault. Hopkins wished Fischer well and, in the statement, acknowledged that she was an assistant professor of surgery at UT and on the clinical faculty at Dallas Children's Hospital.
Dr. Fischer is part of a tradition of Hopkins-trained doctors, and she and her family have established a scholarship in the School of Medicine, the statement reads.
=================
Doctor sues Johns Hopkins School of Medicine for bias in U.S.
Daily Record, The (Baltimore), Apr 30, 2008 by Been Mook
A former professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine is suing the school and two of her supervisors, claiming a longstanding pattern of gender-based bullying and harassment forced her out and nearly derailed her career.
Dr. Anne C. Fischer, a pediatric surgeon, filed the lawsuit Monday in U.S. District Court in Baltimore. In the 57-page complaint, she lays out what she claims is an eight-year pattern of sexual harassment and gender discrimination that ultimately led her to resign.
She also cites a 2006 report by the Johns Hopkins University Committee on the Status of Women, which identified a history of gender-based concerns throughout the university that had been documented repeatedly since 1985.
"Although some progress has occurred, it is sobering to realize how short Johns Hopkins falls from this goal and how deep residual gender bias is, particularly in an academic environment so firmly committed to values of freedom, equality, and human dignity," the Vision 2020 report says.
Johns Hopkins Medicine spokesman Gary M. Stephenson declined to comment on pending litigation or on efforts to address gender bias at Hopkins since the 2006 report, which is posted on the school's Web site.
Fischer, a Hopkins graduate, joined the staff in 1999 as a junior faculty member after finishing her pediatric surgery fellowship at Harvard Medical School. Fischer claims that until she felt forced to resign her position last June, she was subjected to a pattern of "gender discrimination and sex-based bullying, and harassment" at the hands of her supervisor, Dr. Paul Colombani, chief of the Pediatric Surgery Division. http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/surgery/faculty/colombani
"Dr. Colombani perpetuated a sex-stereotyped work environment in which males, known as 'the boys,' were given numerous advantages based on their gender," the lawsuit reads. "By contrast, women faculty, including Dr. Fischer, endured a pervasive pattern of discrimination because of gender."
In addition to Colombani, Fischer names the Johns Hopkins University; the School of Medicine; and the Johns Hopkins Hospital and Health System. She is also suing Dr. Julie Freischlag, chairwoman of the Department of Surgery, who allegedly did nothing to remedy the situation.
Colombani and Freischlag did not return telephone calls left at their offices yesterday afternoon, seeking comment on Fischer's lawsuit.
Among other things, Fischer alleges that one colleague had "offensive, sexually-suggestive" photographs -- referred to as the "T&A Display" -- as the screen saver on his office computer. In another example, Fischer claims a doctor had "wall to wall" photographs of scantily clad women posing in sexually provocative positions. She also recounted an instance in which inflated condoms were put on her chair and around her office.
"It was an environment that regularly featured sexually inappropriate and unprofessional conduct by male employees," the lawsuit says.
Retaliation alleged
After she complained, Fischer alleges, Colombani started working to have her removed or force her to leave.
She claims he would make false accusations against her, one of which led to a verbal confrontation in which Colombani "leaned over and screamed at Dr. Fischer asking why she would never 'cry like a normal woman,'" according to the complaint.
Things escalated to the point that, after securing a National Institutes of Health grant for research, she was denied lab space and her rounds were increased so she had less time to devote to it, the lawsuit says. And, when she went through an in-house employee assistance program, Fischer claims the counselor divulged what was said at the meetings.
As a result, Fischer said she was later ordered to undergo treatment for "personality disorder." Fischer said she objected to the implication, but attended the sessions as ordered.
"Defendants' strategy is a classic example of the repugnant tactic of suggesting that a woman who complains of gender-based discrimination, bullying and harassment must be mentally unstable," the lawsuit reads.
Fischer also contends that she sought help from Freischlag, but nothing was remedied. She claims that Freischlag initially said she would support her, but in the end sided with Colombani in the effort to force her to leave.
Fischer's attorney, Thomas P. Gies of Crowell & Moring LLP in Washington, said the final straw was a March 7 letter ordering Fischer to stop scheduling surgical procedures. Gies said the removal of clinical privileges led Fischer to resign. She took a position as an assistant professor at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School in Dallas.
Vision 2020
As the complaint noted, problems with gender-based discrimination have been highlighted for years by the university itself. In 1985, the university commissioned an ad hoc committee which later became formalized as the University Committee on the Status of Women. In 2006, the committee authored its long-range plan, Vision 2020, addressing the problems faced by female faculty and students at Johns Hopkins.
The Vision 2020 long-range plan indicated that reports "identified the presence of significant gender-based obstacles for women," principally the low number of women in leadership, "work/ life balance" issues and "transforming a culture in which gender- based obstacles and discrimination are deeply rooted."
The report's authors add that the concerns had been consistent over the 20-year period and had still not been resolved.
"Longstanding traditions and attitudes in the culture at the Johns Hopkins University have spawned pernicious effects on career success and satisfaction, and smothered optimism about the future among many women faculty and staff members, as well as among women students," the study reads.
In one section of the executive summary of Vision 2020, the university was cautioned that not taking action could lead to sexual discrimination litigation.
"Clearly, Johns Hopkins wants to avoid incurring the legal costs and the adverse publicity involved in defending itself against legal actions. Resolving gender disparities minimizes that risk."

The full 160-page Vision 2020 report gave 18 recommendations to help improve the situation, ranging from increasing the number of women in senior leadership to making further strides in creating a more civil workplace and developing more effective management practices.
"If Johns Hopkins addresses these issues with determination, imagination, and administrative vigor, the university will reverse its current standing and advance Johns Hopkins to the forefront among universities confronting issues relating to gender equity," the committee wrote in an executive summary of its report.
Hopkins is not alone in struggling with gender workplace issues. According to Dr. Claudia Morrissey, president of the American Medical Women's Association, of the 125 medical schools in the U.S., women make up only 17 percent of the number of full professors, 11 percent of department chairs and 12 percent of medical school deans. This, Morrissey said, despite the fact women have made up over a third of medical students over the last 25 years.
"Women in medicine are achieving parity without power," she said in an e-mail.
========================================================
Anne C. Fischer University of Texas Southwestern
http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/findfac/professional/0,2356,95609,00.html
EDUCATION

1983 University of North Carolina- Chapel Hill BA Chemistry and Mathematics - Summa Cum Laude
1991 Johns Hopkins Medical School M.D.
1991 Johns Hopkins Medical School Ph.D. Medicine and Immunology/Molecular Biology

RESIDENCIES

1991 - 1997 The Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions
Halsted General Surgery Residency

FELLOWSHIPS

1997 - 1999 Harvard Medical School The Children's Hospital of Boston
Pediatric Surgical Fellowship

HONORS AND AWARDS

1999 Sidney Farber Award Most Outstanding Clinical Fellow
1997 Alpha Omega Alpha Award

1994 George Zuidema Award in Scientific Research

1991 William Halsted Award in Surgery

1983 John Motley Morehead Scholar
http://more.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=660565&page=5

 

[PharmaTope]

I'd like to know how many of the deaths were suicides.

good call

 

[dragonfly99]

It is interesting how this woman who complained about some things @Hopkins was accused of having a personality disorder and ordered into psychiatric evaluation. I know someone (also female) who had a similar experience. She's just more outspoken than most women, but I honestly don't think she ever had/has a personality disorder. It's a little scary because it seems like declaring someone has a "personality disorder" is a subjective judgment. I still wonder how these programs get away with forcing people into psych eval and/or therapy and then making them sign away their confidentialty (or at least partially so...this acquaintance of mine I don't think had to release all records but had to give the program director access to reports from the people evaluating her, and her "progress", etc.). It's basically a no win situation because once in therapy, if the person doesn't "admit" to a problem and play along with the recommended treatment/therapy, then the person is going to get a worse diagnosis. I don't know what the solution is - I'm sure there are many people in medicine who have trouble dealing with others constructively @times, and/or who have anger issues or just act too abrasive - the question is when does this cross the line, and who gets to decide, and since there is such a power imbalance how to we protect the people lower on the food chain from abuse by the ones higher up?

 

[JelloBrain]

It is interesting how this woman who complained about some things @Hopkins was accused of having a personality disorder and ordered into psychiatric evaluation. I know someone (also female) who had a similar experience. She's just more outspoken than most women, but I honestly don't think she ever had/has a personality disorder. It's a little scary because it seems like declaring someone has a "personality disorder" is a subjective judgment. I still wonder how these programs get away with forcing people into psych eval and/or therapy and then making them sign away their confidentiality (or at least partially so...this acquaintance of mine I don't think had to release all records but had to give the program director access to reports from the people evaluating her, and her "progress", etc.). It's basically a no win situation because once in therapy, if the person doesn't "admit" to a problem and play along with the recommended treatment/therapy, then the person is going to get a worse diagnosis. I don't know what the solution is - I'm sure there are many people in medicine who have trouble dealing with others constructively @times, and/or who have anger issues or just act too abrasive - the question is when does this cross the line, and who gets to decide, and since there is such a power imbalance how to we protect the people lower on the food chain from abuse by the ones higher up?

You raise some great points and some residents' careers might be at stake due to such subjectivity. These issues could impact any resident's/physician's career at any time point. Maybe those are the issues that could (should ?) be addressed as part of the "residency reform petition" thread originally started by Turquoiseblue: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=746812.

That way there can be an attempt at reform without it becoming an individual's personal matter to deal with. Just my 2 cents, .

 

[razorback58]

Thinking about writing an article or short story on residency experiences, discrimination, termination etc....

If you woud like to share, please send your story to my private mailbox

Thanks

 

[HButler]

I hope he rips those hags and Hopkins surgery a collective new one. Again with the armchair psychiatry! These people missed their calling.

-----------------------------------------------
My understanding is that Dr. Serrano has found another program. Does anyone know where?

The issue, among other things, is due process, as discussed on www.SemmelweisSociety.net, and as suggested by a lawyer and a doctor there. Among other things, does Dr. Serrano's status as a de facto federal employee (Medicare supports internships and residencies) protect him with access to due process? Dr. Freischlag also deserves due process.

I trained in psychiatry at MGH before switching to surgery. A related case of alleged abuse of psychiatry is that of Dr. Anthony Colantonio, also discussed on www.SemmelweisSociety.net.

Hospitals frequently enjoy tax-exemptions. If one disregards the public interest, should its Medicare payments be placed in Escrow pending impartial adjudication with due process?

H. E. Butler III M.D., FACS
[email protected]
www.SemmelweisSociety.net

 

[dragonfly99]

LOL @switching from psych to surgery residency.
That has to be the biggest 180 ever...

 

[MEATHEAD]

Having worked with Oscar a few times, I can say he certainly wasn't the most upstanding of residents... he disappeared a few times while on overnight call to bang his girlfriend (Who wasn't a resident or employee of the hospital) in the call room.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Having worked with Oscar a few times, I can say he certainly wasn't the most upstanding of residents... he disappeared a few times while on overnight call to bang his girlfriend (Who wasn't a resident or employee of the hospital) in the call room.

Like he's the first one ever to do that (although the few times a night is somewhat impressive, especially while on call). I'd say its more a rarity *not* to have done that and IMHO, might even be more comendable that he wasn't banging some random nurse or PT student like many male residents.

Unless he was ignoring pages/crashing patients and we have some evidence that's what he was really doing, I'd say

 

[deuist]

Like he's the first one ever to do that (although the few times a night is somewhat impressive, especially while on call). I'd say its more a rarity *not* to have done that and IMHO, might even be more comendable that he wasn't banging some random nurse or PT student like many male residents.

Unless he was ignoring pages/crashing patients and we have some evidence that's what he was really doing, I'd say

You must have gone to a much more interesting program than me. I had heard rumors of one resident several years prior. Other than that, I think people have been too busy or sheepish for sex in the call room.

 

[chocomorsel]

Like he's the first one ever to do that (although the few times a night is somewhat impressive, especially while on call). I'd say its more a rarity *not* to have done that and IMHO, might even be more comendable that he wasn't banging some random nurse or PT student like many male residents.

Unless he was ignoring pages/crashing patients and we have some evidence that's what he was really doing, I'd say

Seriously? A rarity? And do the attendings know about this or is it just meaty gossip among the residents? I thought that kinda **** only happened on TV? Boy that is some bold ****. Gotta have some balls to do that without fear that some attending will find out and get your ass fired. Wow. I know some male residents have a reputation around the hospital, but I don't know how many of these people are screwing at the hospital. But then again, I could be just naive.

 

[JackADeli]

Seriously? A rarity? And do the attendings know about this or is it just meaty gossip among the residents? I thought that kinda **** only happened on TV? Boy that is some bold ****. Gotta have some balls to do that without fear that some attending will find out and get your ass fired...

Yes, attendings know and do it too depending on field and amount of time they spend in hospital. I know plenty of attendings that the nursing staff will call the spouse up and say, "your husband has been here with sick patient for 72 hours, needs a good meal and conjugal visit...".

Remember, it was originally called "residency" for a reason. Attendings, in most places, have an unwritten rule to stay awa from the call rooms. They are a "safe zone" for residents. Plenty of residents will have SO and spouses come to the hospital and spend time in call rooms. The issue is how one goes about it. Are you being vulgar, i.e. loud moaning & groaning heard down the hall/s? Are you monopolizing call rooms and preventing another on-call resident from getting rest? Are you creating an uncomfortable environment i.e. senior with junior resident resulting in junior resident feeling somehow protected or maybe being with a "special" nurse, etc....

It is not a particularly bold issue. It only becomes bold when you escalate a simple, mutual adult interaction into workplace complications and/or soap opera scenarios.

 

[Winged Scapula]

You must have gone to a much more interesting program than me. I had heard rumors of one resident several years prior. Other than that, I think people have been too busy or sheepish for sex in the call room.

Perhaps it was a more interesting program. I personally walked in on the CT fellow and the CT PA - that was embarassing if only because they were both married to other people, whom I knew.

But we aren't talking about people who are too busy to be doing it (presumably) but rather taking some time, when things are slow, to do it. As for sheepish - I guess it depends on how your call rooms are set up. The CT call room had separate rooms for the fellow and the resident, but this one decided to get busy on the couch in the sitting room between the bedrooms.

Seriously? A rarity? And do the attendings know about this or is it just meaty gossip among the residents? I thought that kinda **** only happened on TV? Boy that is some bold ****. Gotta have some balls to do that without fear that some attending will find out and get your ass fired.

Fired? For what? Last time I checked it wasn't against any residency rules to have sex in the hospital.

And no...it wasn't gossip. I have seen it, done it and been told about it by others, attendings and residents. I'm not suggesting that residents are ignoring pages and crashing patients, but if someone is on call and their spouse or long-term GF/BF visits, I see nothing wrong with a little conjugal visit - as long as it doesn't endanger patients or embarass colleagues.

I guess I am unsure as to where your ire comes from. I see lots of residents who have their spouses come to visit for dinner; if things were quiet, I see nothing wrong with them spending some time together. I wouldn't advertise it of course, as some attendings and colleagues might assume you were shirking your work, but that was never evident to me. And besides, we aren't talking about all night sessions, but rather a quick interlude. Also remember, I trained in the day when hours were longer and we often were just sitting around without much to do.

Yes, attendings know and do it too depending on field and amount of time they spend in hospital. I know plenty of attendings that the nursing staff will call the spouse up and say, "your husband has been here with sick patient for 72 hours, needs a good meal and conjugal visit...".

Remember, it was originally called "residency" for a reason. Attendings, in most places, have an unwritten rule to stay awa from the call rooms. They are a "safe zone" for residents. Plenty of residents will have SO and spouses come to the hospital and spend time in call rooms. The issue is how one goes about it. Are you being vulgar, i.e. loud moaning & groaning heard down the hall/s? Are you monopolizing call rooms and preventing another on-call resident from getting rest? Are you creating an uncomfortable environment i.e. senior with junior resident resulting in junior resident feeling somehow protected or maybe being with a "special" nurse, etc....

Exactly. As long as someone is discrete and not bothering others, I see no problem especially if it was with a SO (ie, not a running gauntlet of indiscretions with hospital employees). And it certainly wasn't against any residency rules that I was aware of.

 

[LADoc00]

Fascinating, I hope the Hopkins faculty responsible are all fired for cause if this guy wins.

 

[proman]

Having worked with Oscar a few times, I can say he certainly wasn't the most upstanding of residents... he disappeared a few times while on overnight call to bang his girlfriend (Who wasn't a resident or employee of the hospital) in the call room.

We could talk about the time he allegedly dated 2 nurses in the same ICU at the same time and didn't think they would find out.

 

[JackADeli]

Having worked with Oscar a few times, I can say he certainly wasn't the most upstanding of residents... he disappeared a few times while on overnight call to bang his girlfriend (Who wasn't a resident or employee of the hospital) in the call room.

We could talk about the time he allegedly dated 2 nurses in the same ICU at the same time and didn't think they would find out.

Yes, I am not surprised at the gradual rise in rumor and other comentary suggesting ~moral failings. It isn't like anyone has suggested JHopkins tried to attack his psychological/mental health too. You know, it wasn't so long ago that people could start little whisper campaigns suggesting someone might be gay in order to try and discredit or malign their character

I would like to see relevant facts as opposed to steamy rumors to taint someone's reputation as a qualified resident.

 

[chocomorsel]

Perhaps it was a more interesting program. I personally walked in on the CT fellow and the CT PA - that was embarassing if only because they were both married to other people, whom I knew.

But we aren't talking about people who are too busy to be doing it (presumably) but rather taking some time, when things are slow, to do it. As for sheepish - I guess it depends on how your call rooms are set up. The CT call room had separate rooms for the fellow and the resident, but this one decided to get busy on the couch in the sitting room between the bedrooms.



Fired? For what? Last time I checked it wasn't against any residency rules to have sex in the hospital.

And no...it wasn't gossip. I have seen it, done it and been told about it by others, attendings and residents. I'm not suggesting that residents are ignoring pages and crashing patients, but if someone is on call and their spouse or long-term GF/BF visits, I see nothing wrong with a little conjugal visit - as long as it doesn't endanger patients or embarass colleagues.

I guess I am unsure as to where your ire comes from. I see lots of residents who have their spouses come to visit for dinner; if things were quiet, I see nothing wrong with them spending some time together. I wouldn't advertise it of course, as some attendings and colleagues might assume you were shirking your work, but that was never evident to me. And besides, we aren't talking about all night sessions, but rather a quick interlude. Also remember, I trained in the day when hours were longer and we often were just sitting around without much to do.



Exactly. As long as someone is discrete and not bothering others, I see no problem especially if it was with a SO (ie, not a running gauntlet of indiscretions with hospital employees). And it certainly wasn't against any residency rules that I was aware of.

Well then, guess I must be really naive. Trust me, if I attempted to pull this **** in the workplace, I would be out on my skinny ass with security pulling at me while I made a scene. Are you kidding WS? Honestly never thought this really happened as frequently as you are saying.

Doesn't that qualify as "unprofessionalism" in some regard. Of course depends on whom you ask. The kind of stuff that have been labeled as unprofessional by my dept and I've been told to refrain from, boy not even close. For example, I stated loudly that I hated the ICU and that was deemed unprofessional by the attending who wrote the PD and I was given a written warning for unprofessional behavior. Wow.

Damn, should have done residency in the east coast.

 

[JackADeli]

...Doesn't that qualify as "unprofessionalism" in some regard. ...For example, I stated loudly that I hated the ICU and that was deemed unprofessional by the attending who wrote the PD and I was given a written warning for unprofessional behavior. Wow...

We are starting to mix apples and lettuce. Nobody to my knowledge has a handbook of what form of sleeping in an on-call room is professional or not. Speaking out or disparaging a unit or service is unprofessional. When you are resting within a call room, you are effectively on a ~pseudopersonal time. In just about every other profession it is unprofessional to sleep in the workplace. Healthcare and taking call is somewhat different.

The unprofessionalism of call room conduct occurs when you allow you personal time in the call room to spill out into your actual work. This can be failure to get out of bed to answer a page or engaging in ridiculous escapades and disseminating around the hospital. When a married physician is using the hospital and call rooms and/or call room anterooms to engage in affairs with other married personel that is a different ball of wax.

 

[Apollyon]

We are starting to mix apples and lettuce. Nobody to my knowledge has a handbook of what form of sleeping in an on-call room is professional or not. Speaking out or disparaging a unit or service is unprofessional. When you are resting within a call room, you are effectively on a ~pseudopersonal time. In just about every other profession it is unprofessional to sleep in the workplace. Healthcare and taking call is somewhat different.

The unprofessionalism of call room conduct occurs when you allow you personal time in the call room to spill out into your actual work. This can be failure to get out of bed to answer a page or engaging in ridiculous escapades and disseminating around the hospital. When a married physician is using the hospital and call rooms and/or call room anterooms to engage in affairs with other married personel that is a different ball of wax.

Firefighters routinely sleep on night shifts on the job. However, I've never ever known a firefighter to bring a woman (provided it's a straight male) into the firehouse to screw her while the other guys are there. It just doesn't happen.

However, as to your comment in re: "pseudopersonal time": if one is allowed to sleep at work, one should not have ANY expectation of privacy. Sexual conduct at work would definitely be actionable under virtually all rules; if it's with a spouse, how did the spouse get in? Unauthorized entry. If it's a coworker, fraternization. As to not expecting privacy, the worker is expected to be available on a moment's notice - literally. What if the colleague opens the door, and the provider is in flagrante delicto? The colleague has every right to be offended, and to file a complaint stating the offender made the colleague's workplace uncomfortable.

I just don't see any way (unless one is a licensed prostitute in a location where it is legal) one could justify having sex at work, and think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

[proman]

Yes, I am not surprised at the gradual rise in rumor and other comentary suggesting ~moral failings. It isn't like anyone has suggested JHopkins tried to attack his psychological/mental health too. You know, it wasn't so long ago that people could start little whisper campaigns suggesting someone might be gay in order to try and discredit or malign their character

I would like to see relevant facts as opposed to steamy rumors to taint someone's reputation as a qualified resident.

I've worked with Oscar (not just in the OR but ICU rotations etc). Apparently so has Meathead. We've known about these rumors before anything happened to him.

 

[psychbender]

Firefighters routinely sleep on night shifts on the job. However, I've never ever known a firefighter to bring a woman (provided it's a straight male) into the firehouse to screw her while the other guys are there. It just doesn't happen.

Your fire service must have been different from mine, as I know several firefighters, and a few medics who engaged in said behavior while others were in the building. In at least one instance, it occurred on a fire apparatus.

 

[Apollyon]

Your fire service must have been different from mine, as I know several firefighters, and a few medics who engaged in said behavior while others were in the building. In at least one instance, it occurred on a fire apparatus.

I knew private third service medics that did it (in the basement quarters at the Mercy Hospital of Buffalo), and I saw on the apparatus in Backdraft!

 

[psychbender]

I knew private third service medics that did it (in the basement quarters at the Mercy Hospital of Buffalo), and I saw on the apparatus in Backdraft!

I knew the two involved on the apparatus (one fire, one former EMS), and the thought of them doing it still makes my brain shudder...not Backdraft material.

In my old station, there was also a couch that someone stowed in a storage attic...

 

[Apollyon]

I knew the two involved on the apparatus (one fire, one former EMS), and the thought of them doing it still makes my brain shudder...not Backdraft material.

It's like the nude beach - the only people naked are those that should leave their clothes on.

 

[JackADeli]

I've worked with Oscar (not just in the OR but ICU rotations etc). Apparently so has Meathead. We've known about these rumors before anything happened to him.

I understand that rumors exist before and after situations like this. That is not the point. The issue is how do these rumors have anything to do with the price of tea in China!

My read on the lawsuit is that JH claims some sort of mental psych defect and/or failure to progress and/or perform during residency. However, it seems those facts don't, based on the limited available information, seem to add up. Who he is or isn't having sex with or was having sex with is really not relavent. I would also suggest, given the rampant level of infidelity at some prestigious training programs by prestigious professors, some institutions may like to thinktwice before trying to dredge up character attacks based on sexual practices of a single/unmarried individual.

If the issue is one that he was hiding, not answering pages, not caring for patients for whatever reason, sex or dinner (doesn't matter), well that is relavant.

Firefighters routinely sleep on night shifts on the job. However, I've never ever known a firefighter to bring a woman (provided it's a straight male) into the firehouse to screw her while the other guys are there. It just doesn't happen...

Really? Not my understanding of the firehouse/s and friends in the firehouses and paramedic, etc....

...However, as to your comment in re: "pseudopersonal time": if one is allowed to sleep at work, one should not have ANY expectation of privacy. Sexual conduct at work would definitely be actionable under virtually all rules...As to not expecting privacy, the worker is expected to be available on a moment's notice - literally. What if the colleague opens the door, and the provider is in flagrante delicto?

Not true and very dependent on the situation and sleeping arrangements. Some call rooms are multi-bed, multi-person set-up with group sleeping. That arrangement is not conducive to any expectation of privacy. Other set-ups are single "suites" with locked doors. These most definately have an expectation of privacy and security. Thus, individuals keep expensive personal belongings in such rooms. Sexual conduct in such scenario does not necesasarily violate rules or constitute an actionable event.

...Sexual conduct at work would definitely be actionable under virtually all rules; if it's with a spouse, how did the spouse get in? Unauthorized entry. If it's a coworker, fraternization...

My significant other coming to the hospital and being in the call room is not and has never been an act of "unauthorized entry". I don't know where you work/train. But, that is just not the environment I work in.

...I just don't see any way ...one could justify having sex at work, and think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Again, I don't know where you work/train. But, that is just not the environment I work in. Something being "wrong" is really dependent on the circumstances of one's employment and the "quarters" that are arranged or established. As noted above, not every place and every arrangement are appropriate or conducive to ~conjugal visits.

 

[Apollyon]

Really? Not my understanding of the firehouse/s and friends in the firehouses and paramedic, etc....

Are you being disingenuous, or do you really not get it? You said in most other jobs you can't sleep at work. I gave an example - of which there are more firefighters in the US than doctors (in total). You don't see the connection? Really?

Not true and very dependent on the situation and sleeping arrangements. Some call rooms are multi-bed, multi-person set-up with group sleeping. That arrangement is not conducive to any expectation of privacy. Other set-ups are single "suites" with locked doors. These most definately have an expectation of privacy and security. Thus, individuals keep expensive personal belongings in such rooms. Sexual conduct in such scenario does not necesasarily violate rules or constitute an actionable event.

Something gets stolen - guess what? Do you really think the hospital will cover lost items? How do they change the linen? Check with your hospital administration - I am completely serious. Ask them if it's OK for locked-door visits with your wife while you are on duty. Just ask. After you do, I'll tell you - like I'm psychic - what they told you.

My significant other coming to the hospital and being in the call room is not and has never been an act of "unauthorized entry". I don't know where you work/train. But, that is just not the environment I work in.

I know very little about you. If your SO comes to the hospital, does s/he sign in? Are social visitors to workers allowed at your hospital? Have you read the rules? Again, I would think - unless your hospital is quite the outlier - that, strictly speaking, letting your SO in for a social visit, in a non-public area, would be a violation of the hospital rules. I can provide list after list of hospital rules, I can canvass many, many others via the Internet, and I can show you how, either directly or indirectly, having sex with your SO or anyone else in the hospital is a rules violation. Whether you have an expectation of privacy because there's a lock on the door (about which you seem mistaken, as a private room with a locked door is not "off limits" and free for one to do whatever one desires) or because "that's just not the environment I work in", it is not extrapolatable to the US at large.

All I'm saying is, try it. Just don't be surprised, irrespective of whether it "is just not the environment (you) work in" or not, when it goes over like a lead balloon. If you are already doing it, then don't be surprised when housekeeping opens the door while you're naked. Is there a "do not disturb" sign on your call room doors? I am not kidding. Also, again, ask admin whether there is any true expectation of privacy, and about liability for lost and stolen items.

 

[JackADeli]

Are you being disingenuous, or do you really not get it? You said in most other jobs you can't sleep at work. I gave an example - of which there are more firefighters in the US than doctors (in total). You don't see the connection? Really?...

No, I don't. Yes, maybe more firefighters then physicians. That does not equate "most other jobs". The vast majority of employed folks in this country do not get to sleep at work. As to firefighters vs physicians, the sleep arrangements for firefighters and/or paramedics are often very different then the individual ~suite like rooms, with individual beds and door locks provided to physicians. Still, I am very much aware of the escapades of firefighters and paramedics. yes, their escapades are likely in violation of some rules/regs. However, their rules and regs and/or circumstances do not equate the individual circumstances of hospitals and/or physicians.

...Something gets stolen - guess what? Do you really think the hospital will cover lost items? How do they change the linen? Check with your hospital administration - I am completely serious. Ask them if it's OK for locked-door visits with your wife while you are on duty. Just ask. After you do, I'll tell you - like I'm psychic - what they told you...

Expectation of security does not mean the hospital assumes liability for loss. If I have a locked locker at the gymn, I have an expectation of security and if I am robbed the gymn will not cover the costs of loss. My bank safe deposit has an expectation of security. However, there are vast restrictions on what if any loss coverage the bank will provide should there be an Argentina esqu robbery. As to having SO in my office or call room with door locked, is absolutely acceptable and has been at the 3 or 4 hospitals I have been at to date. The last time I had a rule of room door open and unlocked with visitors was my mother's house. No, your not particularly psychic, just mistaken (though presumably correct if you are just talking about your particular location/workplace).

...I know very little about you. If your SO comes to the hospital, does s/he sign in? Are social visitors to workers allowed at your hospital? Have you read the rules? Again, I would think - unless your hospital is quite the outlier - that, strictly speaking, letting your SO in for a social visit, in a non-public area, would be a violation of the hospital rules. I can provide list after list of hospital rules, I can canvass many, many others via the Internet, and I can show you how, either directly or indirectly, having sex with your SO or anyone else in the hospital is a rules violation. Whether you have an expectation of privacy because there's a lock on the door (about which you seem mistaken, as a private room with a locked door is not "off limits" and free for one to do whatever one desires) or because "that's just not the environment I work in", it is not extrapolatable to the US at large...

You are correct, as I know nothing confirmable about you, so too you know nothing in reference to me. However, yes, social visitors and/or family are allowed at the hospitals I have been at; No, they have not been required to sign in. Yes, I have read plenty of the rules and staff bylaws. Yes, when my SO visits, it is not a secret. On the contrary, I usually take my SO to say hello to staff and admins alike. Further, is not uncommon for my SO to arrive, park the car, go to admin office to be directed to someplace to wait for me to complete my last case. Depending on day and/or situation SO may be escorted to my office or to my call room. as to "off limits" my use of that was in context of a specific time in my training. I guess I can go on and on, but not sure it would help or be of benefit. I applaud your strong beliefs and diligence in abiding by the rules of your particular institution.

...All I'm saying is, try it. Just don't be surprised, irrespective of whether it "is just not the environment (you) work in" or not, when it goes over like a lead balloon. If you are already doing it, then don't be surprised when housekeeping opens the door while you're naked. Is there a "do not disturb" sign on your call room doors? I am not kidding. Also, again, ask admin whether there is any true expectation of privacy, and about liability for lost and stolen items.

Hav done it, been there, etc. Housekeeping always and is expected to nock loudly and and announce their arrival. Some folks do put up "do not disturb" signs. Those are respected by the institution and housekeeping. They are also expected to perform their duties at only certain times during the day. Situation does not go over like lead balloon at institutions I have resided and or worked. The situation actually "flies" just fine.

Again, not sure any benefit in continued discussion on these lines. I think we are very far off base from the topic at hand. Unless, the reason serrano was fire is now citing he violated some rules and engaged in sexual conduct at the hospital, I don't find it relavant and think it is just selacious gossip.

 

[WorkaholicsAnon]

Well then, guess I must be really naive. Trust me, if I attempted to pull this **** in the workplace, I would be out on my skinny ass with security pulling at me while I made a scene. Are you kidding WS? Honestly never thought this really happened as frequently as you are saying.

Doesn't that qualify as "unprofessionalism" in some regard. Of course depends on whom you ask. The kind of stuff that have been labeled as unprofessional by my dept and I've been told to refrain from, boy not even close. For example, I stated loudly that I hated the ICU and that was deemed unprofessional by the attending who wrote the PD and I was given a written warning for unprofessional behavior. Wow.

Damn, should have done residency in the east coast.

Agree. Professionalism is a cruical aspect of academic perfomance. Unprofessionalism does invariably lead to events that adversely affect patient care. I dont want to speculate about what happened, but I suspect some events along these lines may have been the issue.

What i dont understand is, if such misconduct is to be taken so lightly (per some of the posters here), why the need for the cover-up and the twisting of facts as per the original article?

I dont buy the "championing resident work hours" victimhood at all. I see it as just an excuse and him trying to capitalizing on Troy Madsen's whistleblowing (a "hey if it worked for him, it'll work for me" mentality maybe?). From what a previous poster in this thread said, sounded like in fighting the resident work hours he wouldn't be representing the residents at all, since the majority of them willingly broke work hours to get more cases. If anything it seems to me that if this did indeed happen, this surgery resident started pointing the finger at the surgical work hour violations BECAUSE he was already in trouble.

What it sounds like to me is the guy developed a God complex too much, too soon. Being selected to represent on TV likely fueled this arrogance, as did being elected president, etc. And well, he probably thought he could get away with anything and did some risky stuff (and maybe threatened people or someone died on his watch while he was banging his gf or the nurses...who knows?). And he still thinks so, evidenced by this lawsuit. If things were to a point where the program felt the need to disgrace itself by firing a resident, I'm sure that it was not just one event or one thing that happened, but a pattern of events leading to significant damage. As people here have mentioned, indiscretions do happen and people have generally not gotten fired over them.

the truth is, we dont have the whole story in this article. Hopkins knows their reasons (and i'm sure this resident knows the REAL reasons he was fired) and i'm sure those reasons will be presented in court. Even though believe me I'd champion a resident's cause any day, from what i'm hearing, I see no reason to give this guy any of my support or sympathy.

 

[JackADeli]

...I dont want to speculate about what happened...

What it sounds like to me is the guy developed a God complex too much, too soon. Being selected to represent on TV likely fueled this arrogance, as did being elected president, etc. And well, he probably thought he could get away with anything and did some risky stuff (and maybe threatened people or someone died on his watch while he was banging his gf or the nurses...who knows?)...

That is all quite interesting. Your post while claiming, "I dont want to speculate about what happened...", actually does just that!

Nothing that has come from JH or any other case related source, has to my knowledge made any such claims to include but not limited Serrano "threatened people or someone died on his watch while he was banging his gf or the nurses...". So, makes for selacious rumors and character attacks on a forum. As to God complex fueled by "being elected president"... my understanding on published presented facts and dates... his election actually took place/resulted after he was fired!

...I dont buy the "championing resident work hours" victimhood at all. ...From what a previous poster in this thread said, sounded like in fighting the resident work hours he wouldn't be representing the residents at all, since the majority of them willingly broke work hours to get more cases...

Having found myself in residency involved in one way or another as part of efforts to champion resident rights and/or fighting for ACGME/RRC compliance, I assure you it is a lonely place. It is more common to have residents complain to you in the dark corners, encourage you to charge forward on their behalf, cry about being "forced to violate duty hour rules", and then while you are presenting this front have all the residents deny they lie about the rules and deny they have any complaints. Suddenly, you find yourself standing there alone holding the bag and looking like a psycho making things up in the name of the residents. Everyone should think long and hard before assuming the responsibility to represent your resident colleagues or be "their voice". When you fight that fight on their behalf, they do not always have your back... they still want to graduate. Residents regularly eat their own and in numerous instances perpetuate their own misery.

 

[WorkaholicsAnon]

That is all quite interesting. Your post while claiming, "I dont want to speculate about what happened...", actually does just that!

Nothing that has come from JH or any other case related source, has to my knowledge made any such claims to include but not limited Serrano "threatened people or someone died on his watch while he was banging his gf or the nurses...". So, makes for selacious rumors and character attacks on a forum. As to God complex fueled by "being elected president"... my understanding on published presented facts and dates... his election actually took place/resulted after he was fired!Having found myself in residency involved in one way or another as part of efforts to champion resident rights and/or fighting for ACGME/RRC compliance, I assure you it is a lonely place. It is more common to have residents complain to you in the dark corners, encourage you to charge forward on their behalf, cry about being "forced to violate duty hour rules", and then while you are presenting this front have all the residents deny they lie about the rules and deny they have any complaints. Suddenly, you find yourself standing there alone holding the bag and looking like a psycho making things up in the name of the residents. Everyone should think long and hard before assuming the responsibility to represent your resident colleagues or be "their voice". When you fight that fight on their behalf, they do not always have your back... they still want to graduate. Residents regularly eat their own and in numerous instances perpetuate their own misery.

You're right, i did end up making some vague speculations based on facts that were shared here in this very thread by people who knew him, but i did make it clear that it was sort of a speculation on my part with the "who knows?" phrase, which I might add, you did include in your quote of me.

Like i said, the surg dept at JHH knows the real reasons for his firing, as does the resident himself. The point of my post was to state that the article in the OP sounds like a lot of BS to me. That's all I'm saying, and I'm not the only one here who found some weird inconsistencies and nonsensical statements in there.

I might add also that it's a little weird how you claim to know an awful lot of detail about the sequence of events as you claim they happened, JackAdeli, that someone on a very personal level would really only know, considering the OP was from 1.5 years ago, which means this must have happened a good 2-3 years ago. And you seem to be the big "spokesman" for this guy here, pooh-poohing these serious acts of unprofessionalism and fighting back (like a fiend) over simple semantics when someone expresses lack of sympathy with that behavior. A little overreaction there?

 

[JackADeli]

...I might add also that it's a little weird how you claim to know an awful lot of detail about the sequence of events as you claim they happened, JackAdeli, that someone on a very personal level would really only know, considering the OP was from 1.5 years ago, which means this must have happened a good 2-3 years ago. And you seem to be the big "spokesman" for this guy here, pooh-poohing these serious acts of unprofessionalism and fighting back (like a fiend) over simple semantics when someone expresses lack of sympathy with that behavior. A little overreaction there?

No, I think you are very much overreading. The statements in reference of when he was fired in relationship to his "election" has been well published and reported. I have never heard that timeframe/sequence being contested or construed differently before your suggested sequence. I am actually somewhat surprised, given the public court affidavit citing this sequence in his defense that you have actually suggested it to be completely different.

...on April 15, 2009, less than a week after Dr. Serrano was informed of the termination but before it had become publically known, Dr. Serrano was unanimously elected by his peers of all disciplines to serve as President of the House Staff Council, a demonstration of how well-respected and trusted he actually was...

You may want to at least read the public documents relating to his termination before jumping into inuendo and rumors of threats and/or sexual escapades and other such "serious acts of unprofessionalism". Just a thought!

http://www.browngold.com/news/serrano_complaint.pdf

I do not know him. I don't know very much of the details beyond what was submitted to public record via the courts... which is accessible. I don't believe him to be a saint either. My point on this matter is now hearing/reading suggestions or insinuations that he might have been fired for some sexual indiscretion or on-call room escapade, is selacious gossip. These "serious acts of unprofessionalism" (i.e. sexual escapades) as you say, have not to my knowledge been claimed, demonstrated or otherwise alleged beyond individuals that "knew him" saying "they heard about"... which means they don't have first hand or eyewitness knowledge of these RUMORS. Such things have not been part of any of the published information.

Having worked with Oscar a few times, I can say he certainly wasn't the most upstanding of residents... he disappeared a few times while on overnight call to bang his girlfriend (Who wasn't a resident or employee of the hospital) in the call room.

We could talk about the time he allegedly dated 2 nurses in the same ICU at the same time and didn't think they would find out.

I've worked with Oscar (not just in the OR but ICU rotations etc). Apparently so has Meathead. We've known about these rumors before anything happened to him.

You're right, i did end up making some vague speculations based on facts that were shared here in this very thread by people who knew him...

Really, seriously? That is what you define as "facts"? Comments of "I knew him and heard stories..." written on a forum are not in anyway something I would reference as "facts". Especially when they are specifically reported as RUMOR as opposed to "facts". I don't buy the rising trend of character attacks and other inuendo against him or any other individual in or out of healthcare. It all sounds like high school cliques and cheer leaders starting rumors about the new hot chick. It's at the very least beneath any mature physician, IMHO.

God bless and may you never find yourself in a difficult situation only to have it enriched by the busy bodies and rumor mill.

 

[dragonfly99]

Having sex in a call room (while a resident or intern or med student) would have gone over like a lead balloon at my residency program or medical school. However, having lunch or dinner with a spouse was fine. One resident with kids I saw have his wife and 2 little kids come over while he was on call, and hang out in the call room while he was there (on a weekend). In between answering pages he would hang out with them a little bit. This was run by the attending before he invited them. I also would never have had time on call to engage in those sorts of activities...I wouldn't want to try and do it while getting paged every 5 minutes, either!!! My current fellowship is more laid back and I could see how someone could get away with doing such things. Attendings doing stuff in the call room, particularly at some small cushy private hospital with nice call rooms, is another matter. I'm sure it goes on with regularity.

As far as this Serrano guy, if every male resident who was dating multiple nurses at/near the same time got fired, they'd be firing a lot of damn residents. I don't particularly think it speaks well of the guy if he was doing stuff on call, but I guess if someone has time and doesn't neglect pages, I don't consider it my business.