Female MS3 here thinking of choosing rads in order to do mammo...advice needed, not sure if I "fit in" with rads

[Chlorini]

Hi!

I'm considering doing DR followed by a mammography fellowship. I shadowed mammography for one week over Christmas break and I really enjoyed it and I can see myself doing it. However, when I tell my fellow classmates that I plan on going into DR I get a lot of shocked expressions and the "REALLY? I pegged you as the OBGYN/surgery type!?", "But you're so extroverted!", etc, etc. It's really making me second guess my decision and I'm wondering if I'll like (or be good at) general radiology. At my school we don't have much exposure to rads and we really don't match very many people into rads. I won't be able to actually rotate through radiology until my 4th year.

I enjoy reading non-mammography scans but I'm not sure if I "love it" or if I'm good at it. I like mammography because it combines women's health (I originally thought I'd be an OBGYN) with a more controllable lifestyle.

I'm worried about choosing radiology for a few reasons which may or may not be important: I'm not good at physics (but I can learn again, right?), I would definitely not consider myself a "tech-y" or "engineer-minded" person, and I'm not sure if I have the radiology personality whatever that means (the people I've met going into rads have all been men, they seem really laid-back, introverted, super smart guys---I'm high strung, definitely not laid-back, and I've never been described as "intellectual" as far as I know).

So my questions are:

1). Is it bad to choose a residency with a specific fellowship in mind?
2). Do people like me (extroverted, would've done well in a surgical field, etc) end up liking general radiology and do well in it?
3). Do you have to like physics and math, etc to like radiology (I could re-learn it for the boards I'm sure---but is it an integral part of what rads is?)?

Based off my pros/cons of rads, do you think I'd do well/fit in with the field of radiology?

Pros:
No social work stuff
Very intellectual field, you make the diagnosis and move on to the next thing (I'm a very task-oriented person)
No continuity of care/chronic management (I do like patients but I prefer short interactions)
Good lifestyle
I really want to be an expert in one area (mammography)

Cons:
Worried I won't fit in with my radiology colleagues
I don't need patient interaction but I do enjoy socializing with whoever I work with
I'm potentially picking a speciality where I've had little-to-no exposure to the bread and butter of the field (I won't rotate through it until 4th year, I've only shadowed general rads for 6 hours)
I've always wanted to be my own boss--this isn't really feasible in rads
Not sure if I'll be good at it
Long residency

Thanks in advance!

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[NDcienporciento100]

Hi!

I'm considering doing DR followed by a mammography fellowship. I shadowed mammography for one week over Christmas break and I really enjoyed it and I can see myself doing it. However, when I tell my fellow classmates that I plan on going into DR I get a lot of shocked expressions and the "REALLY? I pegged you as the OBGYN/surgery type!?", "But you're so extroverted!", etc, etc. It's really making me second guess my decision and I'm wondering if I'll like (or be good at) general radiology. At my school we don't have much exposure to rads and we really don't match very many people into rads. I won't be able to actually rotate through radiology until my 4th year.

I enjoy reading non-mammography scans but I'm not sure if I "love it" or if I'm good at it (I'm actually pretty terrible at chest xrays). I like mammography because it combines women's health (I originally thought I'd be an OBGYN) with a more controllable lifestyle (I'm a non-traditional student who is married with 2 kids).

I'm worried about choosing radiology for a few reasons which may or may not be important: I'm not good at physics (but I can learn again, right?), I would definitely not consider myself a "tech-y" or "engineer-minded" person, and I'm not sure if I have the radiology personality whatever that means (the people I've met going into rads have all been men, they seem really laid-back, introverted, super smart guys---I'm extremely high strung, definitely not laid-back, and I've never been described as "intellectual" as far as I know).

So my questions are:

1). Is it bad to choose a residency with a specific fellowship in mind?
2). Do people like me (extroverted, would've done well in a surgical field, etc) end up liking general radiology and do well in it?
3). Do you have to like physics and math, etc to like radiology (I could re-learn it for the boards I'm sure---but is it an integral part of what rads is?)?
4). If my situation was different (if I wasn't married and didn't have kids), I probably would've gone into a surgical field (I was debating between OBGYN vs. ortho before realizing that rads was the better choice for someone like me). Is it bad to pick a field when you aren't sure if you "love it" or not?

Based off my pros/cons of rads, do you think I'd do well/fit in with the field of radiology?

Pros:
No social work stuff
Very intellectual field, you make the diagnosis and move on to the next thing (I'm a very task-oriented person)
No continuity of care/chronic management (I do like patients but I prefer short interactions)
Good lifestyle
I really want to be an expert in one area (mammography)

Cons:
Worried I won't fit in with my radiology colleagues
I don't need patient interaction but I do enjoy socializing with whoever I work with
I'm potentially picking a speciality where I've had little-to-no exposure to the bread and butter of the field (I won't rotate through it until 4th year, I've only shadowed general rads for 6 hours)
I've always wanted to be my own boss--this isn't really feasible in rads
Not sure if I'll be good at it
Long residency

Thanks in advance!

-You have come a long way 4 years undergrade, 4 years medical school and you are not going to pick a field you love...... Ok.
- I'm not picking on you but you make Radiology sound like it's a field that you walk into a dark room with no phones or communication of any kind and read films until you walk out, but that's not the case yes the rooms are dark and no there are not many 20 min conversations with Pts, but Radiologist talk with people all the time for example other doctors have Qs on reads, lots of radiologist especially breast Radiology perform procedures and if you are doing breast you probably do a lot of them so you will be talking to patients. And there are plenty of extrovert Radiologist that love to talk with and teach others about the field of radiology
-To your point about husband and kids, honestly tons of people that do surgery are married and have kids so I'm not sure why that would turn you away from doing surgery.
- sounds like you really like surgery or obgyn and the reasons you gave are really not good ones for Choosing not to pursue those fields
-good luck!

 

[Chlorini]

-You have come a long way 4 years undergrade, 4 years medical school and you are not going to pick a field you love...... Ok.
- I'm not picking on you but you make Radiology sound like it's a field that you walk into a dark room with no phones or communication of any kind and read films until you walk out, but that's not the case yes the rooms are dark and no there are not many 20 min conversations with Pts, but Radiologist talk with people all the time for example other doctors have Qs on reads, lots of radiologist especially breast Radiology perform procedures and if you are doing breast you probably do a lot of them so you will be talking to patients. And there are plenty of extrovert Radiologist that love to talk with and teach others about the field of radiology
-To your point about husband and kids, honestly tons of people that do surgery are married and have kids so I'm not sure why that would turn you away from doing surgery.
- sounds like you really like surgery or obgyn and the reasons you gave are really not good ones for Choosing not to pursue those fields
-good luck!

True. That's my point--I've had very little exposure. I've only shadowed mammography (and it was in a private practice setting). I had to seek out shadowing opportunities outside of my medical school. I really, really liked it because of the things you said (biopsies, seeing patients, interacting with other radiologists, making the diagnosis, etc). I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel anxious about going through a diagnostic radiology residency with the sole purpose of doing mammography--without knowing much about general radiology or what my day would look like. I go to a very large medical school (200+ ) and we rarely match more than 4-5 into radiology every year. I am only really aware of the radiology stereotypes (dark rooms, introverts, etc) and not the actuality of what I'd be doing outside of mammo.

I've recently met great faculty members/residents at my school and I'll be able to go through a radiology rotation to see for myself during my 4th year; but applications will be due shortly after my rotation with little time to change my mind if it doesn't work out.

As for wanting to do OBGYN or surgery--I definitely don't want to do a surgical speciality. I have many issues with these fields, which I won't go into. I guess what I was trying to say that I'd be content going into a surgical field if rads doesn't work out or if I didn't have kids. I also tend to "fit in" with these types of people; tbh I haven't found a field "that I love". I've enjoyed all of my rotations so far--but I definitely haven't had that "a-ha!" moment that many of my classmates have. Mammography was the closest I've come to really loving something but I've always heard you shouldn't pick a residency with the intention of only doing a fellowship.

Thanks again, sorry if I offended anyone, I think I'm just anxious about picking something that I haven't had much time to see/get to know the people in the field.

 

[Rad2013]

1). Is it bad to choose a residency with a specific fellowship in mind?
No, at least not with Mammo. Many (most) radiologists hate mammo/breast imaging. So there are tons of groups out there looking for radiologists who just want to read mammo. They get their mammo rads and then everyone else in the group gets to avoid it entirely. A mammo-only gig is a great lifestyle. Short days, no nights, no holidays, no weekends, no real emergencies.

BUT... you have to slog through 6 years of training to get there... vs 4 or 5 with obgyn/surg. But, I think the outcome at the end is worth it. You may not love the 4 years of diagnostic residency though.

2). Do people like me (extroverted, would've done well in a surgical field, etc) end up liking general radiology and do well in it?
I think you'll be fine, especially when you get out there and start doing mammo.

3). Do you have to like physics and math, etc to like radiology (I could re-learn it for the boards I'm sure---but is it an integral part of what rads is?)?
I hate physics and math.. and I did fine. What physics are you talking about re-learning? This is x-ray, ultrasound, CT and MR physics. Most have no experience with that unless they were a physics major or PhD. Either way... you'll be fine. Radiology physics questions are written by radiologists (who have a frail grasp on the physics themselves), not medical physicists.

4). If my situation was different (if I wasn't married and didn't have kids), I probably would've gone into a surgical field (I was debating between OBGYN vs. ortho before realizing that rads was the better choice for someone like me). Is it bad to pick a field when you aren't sure if you "love it" or not?
If you can genuinely say you love obgyn or ortho, why wouldn't you do one of those? If you can't... I'd do radiology. Everything is just a job at some point. And, radiology (especially mammo-only) is far more conducive to a normal life.

 

[Chlorini]

1). Is it bad to choose a residency with a specific fellowship in mind?
No, at least not with Mammo. Many (most) radiologists hate mammo/breast imaging. So there are tons of groups out there looking for radiologists who just want to read mammo. They get their mammo rads and then everyone else in the group gets to avoid it entirely. A mammo-only gig is a great lifestyle. Short days, no nights, no holidays, no weekends, no real emergencies.

BUT... you have to slog through 6 years of training to get there... vs 4 or 5 with obgyn/surg. But, I think the outcome at the end is worth it. You may not love the 4 years of diagnostic residency though.

2). Do people like me (extroverted, would've done well in a surgical field, etc) end up liking general radiology and do well in it?
I think you'll be fine, especially when you get out there and start doing mammo.

3). Do you have to like physics and math, etc to like radiology (I could re-learn it for the boards I'm sure---but is it an integral part of what rads is?)?
I hate physics and math.. and I did fine. What physics are you talking about re-learning? This is x-ray, ultrasound, CT and MR physics. Most have no experience with that unless they were a physics major or PhD. Either way... you'll be fine. Radiology physics questions are written by radiologists (who have a frail grasp on the physics themselves), not medical physicists.

4). If my situation was different (if I wasn't married and didn't have kids), I probably would've gone into a surgical field (I was debating between OBGYN vs. ortho before realizing that rads was the better choice for someone like me). Is it bad to pick a field when you aren't sure if you "love it" or not?
If you can genuinely say you love obgyn or ortho, why wouldn't you do one of those? If you can't... I'd do radiology. Everything is just a job at some point. And, radiology (especially mammo-only) is far more conducive to a normal life.

Thank you!!! That really helps

 

[seeingthings]

Can take my advice with a grain of salt, I'm completing a different residency (primary care) and switching into radiology... Haven't started yet, but I spent a long time working and talking with radiologists.

I was also worried about the stereotypes of radiology before I ultimately decided to switch, but came to the conclusion that a lot of these are not that true. For instance, I too thought that radiologists were by themselves in a dark room all day. Radiology spends a large portion of their day interacting with people.. The difference between primary care and radiology interactions is that they are interacting with health care professionals rather than patients... Which (IMO) is much, much better then interacting with patients all day. Likewise, during residencies the upper and lower level residents are working together and get along quite well. Watching the private practice group at one of the hospitals I work at it was easy to see that they have a great group who works well together and also has a lot of fun. I think there is a lot of socialization in radiology, it's just different than what you get in patient centered specialties. I think that any specialty there will always be people you won't get along with.

You'll be well trained to be good at anything.

Also, if you want to be an expert in one area I wouldn't worry so much about the length of the specialty. You will likely have done a fellowship in any other residency if that's really what you want.

Cons:
Worried I won't fit in with my radiology colleagues --> see above
I don't need patient interaction but I do enjoy socializing with whoever I work with --> see above
I'm potentially picking a speciality where I've had little-to-no exposure to the bread and butter of the field (I won't rotate through it until 4th year, I've only shadowed general rads for 6 hours) --> legitimate concern, I had similar concerns when I was an MS4 and even now while I'm in the process of switching residencies... Not sure I have great advice for this other than to trust your gut
I've always wanted to be my own boss--this isn't really feasible in rads --> becoming much more difficult in all fields of medicine
Not sure if I'll be good at it --> that's why you spend five years in post-graduate education
Long residency --> if you want to truly be an expert at something narrow you will likely need a fellowship anyways.

EDIT: One aspect of radiology that I think is important to realize is how motivated you need to be to read and study even after you get home. There is a ton to learn in radiology.

 

[Cognovi]

1). Is it bad to choose a residency with a specific fellowship in mind?
2). Do people like me (extroverted, would've done well in a surgical field, etc) end up liking general radiology and do well in it?
3). Do you have to like physics and math, etc to like radiology (I could re-learn it for the boards I'm sure---but is it an integral part of what rads is?)?
4). If my situation was different (if I wasn't married and didn't have kids), I probably would've gone into a surgical field (I was debating between OBGYN vs. ortho before realizing that rads was the better choice for someone like me). Is it bad to pick a field when you aren't sure if you "love it" or not?

1: You have to remain self-motivated to learn about all the parts of radiology outside your subspecialty of choice to survive ~3 years of doing that and pass the boards. If you love learning about medicine in general then it is not a problem.
2: Diversity in personalities is a positive factor for any workplace. You don't want to work with a group of people who are all exactly like you; either people clash or it's boring. While less common, radiology has a fair share of high-strung people, extraverts, women, etc, and they do great. The people who don't like radiology are those who need the ups and downs of patient interaction on a daily basis. If your extraverted side can be satisfied with interacting with your radiologist colleagues, technologists, and referring clinicians, more frequently than you interact with patients, then radiology is okay.
3: The physics is an integral but not prominent part of being a typical clinical radiologist. It's not something you have to like, it's is different than what you've learned in the past, and it is only at a level of complexity that is like AP Physics B in high school. Using it is infrequent. When you do, you're not solving differential equations; you're troubleshooting how a machine works and understanding why images look the way they do.
4: Choosing radiology is often a leap of faith because of how infrequently medical students are exposed to radiology as clerkship students. Only you can know how comfortable you are making the choice and how much exposure you need to have before you can confidently make the choice. Shadow more or ask a resident to grab coffee and talk about it.

 

[Chlorini]

Thank y'all so much! I really appreciate all of your responses. I definitely feel more comfortable about going into radiology.

 

[CorneliaSt]

I really don't have much more to add as I think everyone is basically spot on with their advice. I will say as a general observation, med students as a group could not be more ill-informed about radiology yet have such strong opinions/attitudes about the specialty. Most med students believe we are a group of introverts who hate people, hate the light, and just want to make money. This couldn't be farther from the truth. Unless it's a radiologist or radiology resident, I would take everyone one else's opinion with a huge grain of salt.

I'm actually quite surprised how few women go into radiology. I think it's a great field for everyone, but particularly for women, because of how flexible a radiologist can be with their lifestyle. You can pound out long hours in private practice and make money if that's your goal. You can very easily do part time (harder to do as a clinician). When you are off, your time is your own (not true in most fields). If you want tons of time off you can do a one week of nightfloat and two weeks off sort of gig. Or you can work for a telerad gig and work from home (literally the only field in medicine where this is possible that I am aware of). All of these options have their own pros and cons, but at least you have options.

 

[Smallfishtinypond]

All pieces of advice are spot on. I will add my observation after years in PP.

1. Personality: I would bet that an extrovert (friendly to people, able to explain confusing things to lay persons, carrying out pleasant conversation with clinicians) in your case will work to your favor. You will rise faster than those grumpy guys who do not want to be bother and act on it. Clinicians will go to you and speak highly of you among each others.

2. Patient interaction: Mammography is the perfect radiology specialty for you. While being a specialist to virtually every other field out there, we are primary to breast screening. You will be at the front line, explain to the patient, re-assure benign things when needed and find way to deliver bad news/positive breast biopsy result...The patient interaction in mammography is great, as much as you want, or as little as you need.

Rad residents (possibly you even) will continue to change their fellowship and career choices throughout their residency and that is perfectly normal. But if you stick with what you have described, you will do more than fine in mammography and radiology. Good luck.

 

[Chlorini]

Thank you so much!!! This helps a lot

 

[deleted674723]

I really don't have much more to add as I think everyone is basically spot on with their advice. I will say as a general observation, med students as a group could not be more ill-informed about radiology yet have such strong opinions/attitudes about the specialty. Most med students believe we are a group of introverts who hate people, hate the light, and just want to make money. This couldn't be farther from the truth. Unless it's a radiologist or radiology resident, I would take everyone one else's opinion with a huge grain of salt.

I'm actually quite surprised how few women go into radiology. I think it's a great field for everyone, but particularly for women, because of how flexible a radiologist can be with their lifestyle. You can pound out long hours in private practice and make money if that's your goal. You can very easily do part time (harder to do as a clinician). When you are off, your time is your own (not true in most fields). If you want tons of time off you can do a one week of nightfloat and two weeks off sort of gig. Or you can work for a telerad gig and work from home (literally the only field in medicine where this is possible that I am aware of). All of these options have their own pros and cons, but at least you have options.

This all sounds too good to be true. I have decided to apply into radiology, but it is still hard to believe. I am particularly interested in the 7 nights on 14 off gigs. Can I find jobs like this in relatively decent sized cities? No interest in NYC/Chiacgo/LA, but what about places like Raleigh, Nashville, Jacksonville, Minneapolis, etc.

 

[Rad2013]

This all sounds too good to be true. I have decided to apply into radiology, but it is still hard to believe. I am particularly interested in the 7 nights on 14 off gigs. Can I find jobs like this in relatively decent sized cities? No interest in NYC/Chiacgo/LA, but what about places like Raleigh, Nashville, Jacksonville, Minneapolis, etc.

Yes, easily.

 

[deleted674723]

Yes, easily.

Are these considered full time positions and paid accordingly?

 

[Rad2013]

Yes, they are considered full time. I'm not sure what you mean by paid accordingly. Most of these gigs are employed positions. Partnership jobs do exist... but are pretty rare. And, often those that do exist require some additional hours spent in evenings or days to justify partner pay and benefits.

The more typical model is an employed position with a contractual obligation to work a certain number of hours per year paid at an hourly rate. Hourly rate varies and hours per shift varies. Shifts range between 8 hours and 12 hours. 12 hours seems long to me but would obviously make for the highest income. You can simply calculate annual income. For example:

120 shifts required per year x 10 hour shifts x $350/hour = $420,000 base income

Employed positions typically have malpractice covered by the group. Plus other group benefits like health insurance/HSA contributions, 401k, bonus.

Typically there is no additional vacation. 34 weeks off is assumed to be enough and adding vacation would also complicate scheduling.

 

[deleted674723]

Yes, they are considered full time. I'm not sure what you mean by paid accordingly. Most of these gigs are employed positions. Partnership jobs do exist... but are pretty rare. And, often those that do exist require some additional hours spent in evenings or days to justify partner pay and benefits.

The more typical model is an employed position with a contractual obligation to work a certain number of hours per year paid at an hourly rate. Hourly rate varies and hours per shift varies. Shifts range between 8 hours and 12 hours. 12 hours seems long to me but would obviously make for the highest income. You can simply calculate annual income. For example:

120 shifts required per year x 10 hour shifts x $350/hour = $420,000 base income

Employed positions typically have malpractice covered by the group. Plus other group benefits like health insurance/HSA contributions, 401k, bonus.

Typically there is no additional vacation. 34 weeks off is assumed to be enough and adding vacation would also complicate scheduling.

I see. Thanks for the detailed breakdown. Super helpful. For comparison, how much of a pay cut is that when compared to a partnership position working the regular day shifts?

 

[Rad2013]

I see. Thanks for the detailed breakdown. Super helpful. For comparison, how much of a pay cut is that when compared to a partnership position working the regular day shifts?

That's kind of a tough question to answer. There are a lot of variables... such as hours per shift, if working nights. I think full time partners typically work between 2,000 and 2,500 hours per year. Whereas night jobs are usually more like 1,200-1,800 hours per year. But night hours are typically paid at a higher hourly rate than day hours. Say, $300/hr for day, $350/hr for night. You can play with the numbers and make 2 salaries that are quite similar or different by a few hundred thousand dollars.

 

[Cognovi]

This all sounds too good to be true. I have decided to apply into radiology, but it is still hard to believe. I am particularly interested in the 7 nights on 14 off gigs. Can I find jobs like this in relatively decent sized cities? No interest in NYC/Chiacgo/LA, but what about places like Raleigh, Nashville, Jacksonville, Minneapolis, etc.

A few 7on/14off gigs on the ACR jobs board currently:
Tampa, FL: Earn While You Learn! $2500/month for fellows through June, 2019! Great Schedule at 7 on/14 off Overnight, Tampa, FL Position at $400,000 annually Job Opening in Tampa, Florida - American College of Radiology Career Center
Hollywood, FL: Diagnostic Radiologist - Earning Potential of $450k, GREAT LOCATION- Hollywood, Florida Job Opening in Hollywood, Florida - American College of Radiology Career Center
Teleradiology from anywhere into Cleveland Clinic: Overnight Radiologist Job Opening in Anywhere in the Continental United States, Other / Non-US - American College of Radiology Career Center

 

[Rad2013]

I don't have any first hand knowledge of the private equity groups out there... like Envision, RadPartners, Riverside Radiology... but, the sentiment seems to be to steer clear of them.

I think if you're interested in a 7on/14off gig, it's probably best to identify a solid PP group in the geographic area you want to be that has a night team.

 

[deleted674723]

A few 7on/14off gigs on the ACR jobs board currently:
Tampa, FL: Earn While You Learn! $2500/month for fellows through June, 2019! Great Schedule at 7 on/14 off Overnight, Tampa, FL Position at $400,000 annually Job Opening in Tampa, Florida - American College of Radiology Career Center
Hollywood, FL: Diagnostic Radiologist - Earning Potential of $450k, GREAT LOCATION- Hollywood, Florida Job Opening in Hollywood, Florida - American College of Radiology Career Center
Teleradiology from anywhere into Cleveland Clinic: Overnight Radiologist Job Opening in Anywhere in the Continental United States, Other / Non-US - American College of Radiology Career Center

Does that first job mean that they are paying fellows to sign on with them while they complete their fellowship elsewhere? Fellows are just getting paid $2500 a month while they finish their training? Thats... pretty awesome.

 

[Rad2013]

Yes. That is what that means. A few things to note about that job and also just in general.

That job: 7on/14off for 400k is reasonable. Requiring 20 additional day shifts (for no additional pay) is unreasonable.

General: You pay taxes on any stipend or sign on bonus. So, while the extra money is nice, keep in mind that it will ultimately be considerably less than advertised. I don't think job selection should be influenced by a stipend or sign on bonus.

 

[deleted674723]

Yes. That is what that means. A few things to note about that job and also just in general.

That job: 7on/14off for 400k is reasonable. Requiring 20 additional day shifts (for no additional pay) is unreasonable.

General: You pay taxes on any stipend or sign on bonus. So, while the extra money is nice, keep in mind that it will ultimately be considerably less than advertised. I don't think job selection should be influenced by a stipend or sign on bonus.

I pay taxes on all of my income anyway. Is there some additional tax burden for bonuses?

 

[Rad2013]

No. But you will be paying taxes in a much higher tax bracket than residency.

 

[colbgw02]

One "hidden" thing about 7on/14 off jobs that I've run into is that you don't always work enough hours to qualify for the group's health insurance policy. This isn't always the case, as I'm sure it has to do with the particular policy/company that the group has chosen and potentially even the relevant state laws. It's just something to be aware of and, if necessary, make sure your overall compensation is adjusted accordingly should you need to get insurance on the open market.