Family stress during post-bac

[JocktoDoc]

Hi Guys,

I'm starting my post-bac at Rutgers University in June (I'll be 31). Already gave my job notice (civil engineering job in NYC) and I'm very excited.

I had a crazy journey discovering my passion for medicine. I'm a site supervisor, so my company paid for my CPR/AED certification. On a night shift last year, a worker climbed up to a section of the bridge we were demolishing. Looked pretty determined to end it. My guys talked him into coming back down off the bridge, after which he collapsed. Pulse check, breathing check. Nothing. So we hooked up the AED and started compressions. Rescue breaths, all that jazz. Ended up with a save. It was a great feeling and sparked my desire to learn more. Went to EMT school, joined a volunteer 911 service, and now a year later, I'm in a post-bac. I've also shadowed in the EM and with my Primary Care Doc. I'm leaning toward EM, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

Girlfriend of 4 years is very supportive. She's graduating law school when I start, so money will be tight, but we'll live. I've saved up about 250k and we've planned everything out as far as money. We'll shoot for kids in my 3rd year of medical school. Despite all this careful planning, I can't get my family on board. They think it's foolish to leave a good career for medicine. They've essentially ostracized me for attempting this. And my gf for going along with it. Things have deteriorated to the point that we're not welcome in my parents house. I'm middle eastern and family is extremely important to me. Did anyone else go through something similar? Any ideas on how to reconcile? Any advice welcome

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[etp123]

Give it time. After a few years it will become obvious to them that you're serious about it and they'll come around. They might be able to ignore you now because there's still time for you to change your mind and go back to civil engineering, but once you're accepted and well into your medical training they'll realize how serious you are then. It sounds like your family loves you very much, despite this conflict, and just want what's best for you. Their worries will probably be assuaged when they see you're successful in your medical journey, that this isn't a foolish decision and you've got a real path forward.

Stay strong and focus on the goal ahead. This is your passion and you've only got one life to live, so go for it . I'd also try to say hello every now and then or wish them happy holidays so they know that you still think well of them and miss them, even if they're mad at you. But eventually time and extending the olive branch repeatedly will probably wear them down. Good luck!

 

[JocktoDoc]

My family didn't support either, and in fact I'm only in a marginally better position with my folks.

I don't really care what my parents have to say about my career choices in my 30s because I'm an adult.

Also if you hadn't already quit, I would have told you not to. It can maybe be squeezed into 18 months, but that's cutting corners. It'll probably be the cycle after next that you can apply.

I had to quit. No way I could attend classes, study, mcat prep, volunteer, etc while working 70hrs a week. I will work as an EMT per diem just to cover some expenses. But my logic was that I needed to devote my full attention to max out gpa and MCAT. I have a 3.7 gpa going in. Would like to go up to 3.8 and shooting for 510-520 on MCAT. Does that reasoning make sense?

Also my postbac has a linkage to 2 state schools. At one of those schools, I am volunteering for a surgical missions organization founded by a professor at the school. My participation is altruistic, but I do think that the adcom will take that as a sign that I am serious about my commitment to that school. Any thoughts?

 

[GreenDuck12]

You may want to consider working on as a "contractor" given your current skill set. EMT work is fine but it is a pretty generic EC to have on your medical school application. As for the volunteer work, I'm not sure an ADCOM will see that you are serious about their school. Make sure you explicitly state that in a secondary interview. Best advice I ever received when it comes to applications is to be very explicit and not hope that a reviewer will be able to"follow the breadcrumbs." Best of luck to you!

I had to quit. No way I could attend classes, study, mcat prep, volunteer, etc while working 70hrs a week. I will work as an EMT per diem just to cover some expenses. But my logic was that I needed to devote my full attention to max out gpa and MCAT. I have a 3.7 gpa going in. Would like to go up to 3.8 and shooting for 510-520 on MCAT. Does that reasoning make sense?

Also my postbac has a linkage to 2 state schools. At one of those schools, I am volunteering for a surgical missions organization founded by a professor at the school. My participation is altruistic, but I do think that the adcom will take that as a sign that I am serious about my commitment to that school. Any thoughts?

 

[JocktoDoc]

You may want to consider working on as a "contractor" given your current skill set. EMT work is fine but it is a pretty generic EC to have on your medical school application. As for the volunteer work, I'm not sure an ADCOM will see that you are serious about their school. Make sure you explicitly state that in a secondary interview. Best advice I ever received when it comes to applications is to be very explicit and not hope that a reviewer will be able to"follow the breadcrumbs." Best of luck to you!

Yes certainly I'll explicitly say I'm committed. I was trying to say that my actions prove the sentiment.

Also, what are non-generic EC's? I've shadowed and plan to continue that. I plan to go to Ghana for a surgical mission in a support role. I'm searching for clinical research opportunities. Any other ideas?

 

[GreenDuck12]

There also is nothing wrong with having "generic" ECs because, for the most part, they fulfill the application requirements. Medical schools are pretty explicit with what they are looking for: 1) high academic achievement 2) an understanding of the medical profession 3) demonstrated altruism 4) research experience. I don't think you need to go out of your way to find things that will make you stand out as there are well over 50,000 medical applications that are submitted each year. Research helps with research heavy schools. Volunteer work with the less fortunate helps everywhere. If you are giving up engineering to work as an EMT with the hope that it makes a significant impact on your application, my guess is that impact will be limited.

As for the surgical mission to Ghana, make sure that it isn't a "voluntourism" trip. Since it is supporting the work of a faculty member, I think you are probably safe, but just thought I would mention that. Many students do these sorts of trips and ultimately do not do very much volunteer work or do things that they are not qualified to do.

 

[jl lin]

I understand family dynamics vary, but it looks like you have planned many things out carefully. It's not like you didn't take strong steps financially to pursue this. I guess I have a tough time understanding these kinds of posts--especially given what you have done to ensure stability, at least financially, through the process. Can you not just smile, and do what you are doing? In time, they will understand. You will be busy anyway. Give it time. You don't have to stop loving them b/c of their position. Give it time and space.

I'd also suggest trying to get some more exposure working directly in a busy ED--a crazy inner city, university center/teaching hospital would be good. If this is your calling, well, then, it's your life. You must follow it, unless something serious within tells you otherwise. In time, they will accept it. Just smile and be kind with them. Don't argue and keep moving forward. Thousands and more of people have done what you are doing. Best wishes.

 

[DrMikeP]

Hi Guys,

I'm starting my post-bac at Rutgers University in June (I'll be 31). Already gave my job notice (civil engineering job in NYC) and I'm very excited.

I had a crazy journey discovering my passion for medicine. I'm a site supervisor, so my company paid for my CPR/AED certification. On a night shift last year, a worker climbed up to a section of the bridge we were demolishing. Looked pretty determined to end it. My guys talked him into coming back down off the bridge, after which he collapsed. Pulse check, breathing check. Nothing. So we hooked up the AED and started compressions. Rescue breaths, all that jazz. Ended up with a save. It was a great feeling and sparked my desire to learn more. Went to EMT school, joined a volunteer 911 service, and now a year later, I'm in a post-bac. I've also shadowed in the EM and with my Primary Care Doc. I'm leaning toward EM, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

Girlfriend of 4 years is very supportive. She's graduating law school when I start, so money will be tight, but we'll live. I've saved up about 250k and we've planned everything out as far as money. We'll shoot for kids in my 3rd year of medical school. Despite all this careful planning, I can't get my family on board. They think it's foolish to leave a good career for medicine. They've essentially ostracized me for attempting this. And my gf for going along with it. Things have deteriorated to the point that we're not welcome in my parents house. I'm middle eastern and family is extremely important to me. Did anyone else go through something similar? Any ideas on how to reconcile? Any advice welcome

Find a psychologist who specializes in working with middle eastern families. You are dealing with a very complicated situation here and just ignoring family or breaking apart from them is a very US/Western idea. It's not that easy culturally for some groups and you could use support in how to navigate those challenges.

 

[JocktoDoc]

Find a psychologist who specializes in working with middle eastern families. You are dealing with a very complicated situation here and just ignoring family or breaking apart from them is a very US/Western idea. It's not that easy culturally for some groups and you could use support in how to navigate those challenges.

Find a psychologist who specializes in working with middle eastern families. You are dealing with a very complicated situation here and just ignoring family or breaking apart from them is a very US/Western idea. It's not that easy culturally for some groups and you could use support in how to navigate those challenges.

Thanks...great idea.

 

[DrMikeP]

Thanks...great idea.

You do need to definitely find someone culturally aware tho. Many Psychologists in the US can not always fully appreciate the complex cultural dynamics. That said, I've had very traditional middle Eastern families come together and accept such things, even daughters going to coed universities. Often it just takes listening to family fears and finding common ground while respecting religion and values.

Best of luck

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[jl lin]

You do need to definitely find someone culturally aware tho. Many Psychologists in the US can not always fully appreciate the complex cultural dynamics. That said, I've had very traditional middle Eastern families come together and accept such things, even daughters going to coed universities. Often it just takes listening to family fears and finding common ground while respecting religion and values.

Best of luck

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

While I still think that moving forward with a positive attitude and giving it time will be the mainstay, I give you many props for your insightful response. I mean it seems reasonable that this may help a lot. At the end of the day though, it will be more about how the OP deals with it--moving forward, loving attitude in spite of any disagreements and giving it time than anything else. You really can't change others per se. Influence perhaps. But the change is ultimately up to each individual. When they see that the OP is steadfast w/ a good attitude, they will have no choice but to accept his choices, if they really want him in their lives. People can differ on things but still love and care for each other. There will always be stress and differences. It's about rising above them, and that often starts w/ us. And sometimes it can take people decades to bend. In the end they will realize that they only hurt themselves.

 

[jl lin]

I'm going to have been done in 15 months - chem 1 & 2 last summer, bio and ochem series in fall and spring, physics in summer, and biochem online over spring. Grades have been great.

Admittedly my company doesn't track where I am - just how much I bill - and everything else in life has pretty well put on hold until I am done with the MCAT - but you can work and do a postbac if you want. Nothing wrong with not working though, certainly, and having a social life, hobbies, free time, and all that.



Oh I agree that if everyone can love while respecting boundaries that's ideal.

But I think it should also be considered that there are a fair number of families that don't have good boundaries.

A big career decision is a complex interplay of identity, economics, education, delayed/immediate gratification, issues with one's partner, immediate family issues - dad thinks he has the right to run all this when son is in 30s and gets persistently angry when son sets a boundary? Um...tradeoffs between isolation and putting up with all that become very real.

Sad. Sometimes freedom = enduring so isolation. If the OP can make the choice b/c he cannot tolerate the rift and what will probably be a temporary isolation, then he will not go for medical school. I mean is there a compromise for this person from his family? Did see one. That means he will FEEL forced to do one thing or the other--at least for a while. It may be hard but either choice then is hard. The counseling will be most beneficial to the one open to receive it, which may mean the OP. But if he goes thinking he is necessarily going to learn some tricks to make the family change their minds, he may be in for a big let down. Granted. He shouldn't have to choose; but it seems like that is the position in which they are placing him. So I say get the counseling for you (OP), and the family get get if for themselves or may eventually become open to it. But you might be surprised how people fight counseling--as if it would kill them and they aren't going to bend or break, b/c they will not allow themselves to be vulnerable. Maybe the counselor can help seek out what is the best move forward at this point. Maybe medical school is not the right thing right now--especially if he feels pulled back b/c of family issues and lack of support.OTOH, maybe it will help him move forward with school and find ways to positively adapt to the family's lack of support--hoping that perhaps they may come around. I don't see any easy answers for the OP, b/c he is being forced to choose--and that will be hard no matter what.

 

[JocktoDoc]

I was referencing OP's situation, not my own.

And what's sad about cutting Cluster B types out of your life, even if they were genetic donors? Certainly sad relative to healthy family relations, but is a person really better off regularly connecting if that parent is mean, degrading, controlling, dramatic? Prolly not.

Logically you are correct. If a situation causes anguish, you avoid it. However, cutting someone close to you off because they have behavioral issues, especially family, is harsh. In my situation, it's my parents. The people who raised me and put me in a position to even discuss medical school. I am looking for ways to ease tensions without destroying my relationship with them. As an adult in my prime, I feel the onus is on me to set the tone and not just retract into the fetal position just because they're mean to me

 

[DrMikeP]

All families have members with personality issues, some worse than others. Some families also have complex cultural issues added on top of family issues. Sometimes one is better cutting family out of ones life, but from experience that should be the last thing tried after others have failed.

Too often we place our own fears and baggage on our children and these demands on them are what we sincerely feel are for the best. Kind of like we want to save our child from touching a hot stove and some families mistake children's life events as being a hot stove.

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[DrMikeP]

Well I won't comment on your experience directly, however I would gently assert that attempting to ameliorate Cluster B issues enabled by religious beliefs is not a high-yield activity. All your gold is mine, God says.

It seems to me that the choices with this kind of family are 1) weathering the storm or 2) isolating yourself in whole or part.



Oh I agree that with neurotypical people this is a common source of contention. But when the parent has a track record of NPD type behavior, I'm not too sure that concern and wanting what's best for the child is really what's driving conduct, particularly when it comes to second guessing reasoned career choices as outlined above by OP.

Even a toxic narcissist still at the core wants what is best for his or her child, even if it is filtered through a distorted lens and motivation comes from own personal issues. Too much is being assumed with too little information here! People's lives can't be fixed through message boards and too often those responding also filter the posts through their own distortions, which we all have. This is a sensitive issue that needs appropriate intervention by a knowledgeable professional working at multiple angles, as much as one would not attempt to guide someone through a cardiac cath online.

 

[JocktoDoc]

Even a toxic narcissist still at the core wants what is best for his or her child, even if it is filtered through a distorted lens and motivation comes from own personal issues. Too much is being assumed with too little information here! People's lives can't be fixed through message boards and too often those responding also filter the posts through their own distortions, which we all have. This is a sensitive issue that needs appropriate intervention by a knowledgeable professional working at multiple angles, as much as one would not attempt to guide someone through a cardiac cath online.

You're probably right. Unfortunately my parents won't ever consider counseling. Just bringing up the topic would lead to a fight. I'm posting on this forum because ultimately, the greatest source of all this tension is fear of the unknown. Reaching out to both those attempting and those who have completed this journey helps ease that fear. So all your responses are very helpful. My girlfriend just graduated law school yesterday, so seeing her realize her dream makes me want to go after my own

 

[jl lin]

I was referencing OP's situation, not my own.

And what's sad about cutting Cluster B types out of your life, even if they were genetic donors? Certainly sad relative to healthy family relations, but is a person really better off regularly connecting if that parent is mean, degrading, controlling, dramatic? Prolly not.

You can see in my response I also was referring to OP, b/c in the 2nd sentence I said OP. But I hear you. It's family, and that does make things more stressful. It's easy to cut out some random, negative person (well, except sadly in work situations where you are forced to deal with them in some way), than it is w/ your immediate family.

I still would hope in time they would understand and be cool about it--or at least they could coexists in a good way even if he didn't not do what they wanted him to do. I mean that is life. People often have differences, but they learn to make things work--> the bigger picture.

 

[jl lin]

With respect, I think this is excessively idealistic.

What do you do with a NPD father - whose NPD tendencies are validated by religious teachings - giving vitriolic unsolicited career advice worthy of Iago? You either weather it, or you cut him off. There's no point in talking to him because all your gold is his, God says. What's the bigger picture there? Your opportunity to continue to be a source of supply for him, Him, ostensibly because of some obedience to some vague traditional notions?

Certainly context matters a great deal here - mild cluster b can be worked with, but when its pervasive and unrestrainted? - and I wouldn't offer absolute advice in one direction or the other, but cutting this kind of person out of your life is not a poor decision.

I think this is a stretch.

Take, hypothetically, an extreme NPD type. NPD is so bad that can't sit through lectures in college and hear scientific views or political opinions which differ from his own so quits after one semester. Mysteriously converts to a faith which teaches him he is a God-In-Training, vitriolically reacts to the anything that falls even slightly outside of that faith's worldview. Does well in career for a while, but gets fired in a rage situation that ruins his reputation in the industry, and is too proud to apply to new jobs, so goes unemployed until he runs out of money. Starts 3 lawsuits on frivolous grounds, 2/3 dismissed and 3rd judgement for defendant.

Do you think its possible this kind of guy might resent the successes of his children, subjectively discredit the merits of those successes, or even try to sabotage them? Is this pleasant for anyone to be around - excepting perhaps histrionics?

You make some good points. I used the word hope, and perhaps that is idealistic. Nothing wrong with hoping though, but you can hope and make a decision and move on, no? At the end of the day, the person, as an adult, will have to realize that he can't control anyone else other than himself. Thus, his parents can get help or not, and as was suggested, the OP can get help for himself, so that he may deal with at least a temporary loss of support from his family if he chooses to go for medicine.

Ultimately it's either do or don't do. Right? It's a fork in the road, and there are three choices. 1. Go down the path to the right. 2. Go down the path to the left, or 3. sit at the junction waiting for the earth to move you down one path or the other.

 

[DrMikeP]

With respect, I think this is excessively idealistic.

I think this is a stretch.

Take, hypothetically, an extreme NPD type. NPD is so bad that can't sit through lectures in college and hear scientific views or political opinions which differ from his own so quits after one semester. Mysteriously converts to a faith which teaches him he is a God-In-Training, vitriolically reacts to the anything that falls even slightly outside of that faith's worldview. Does well in career for a while, but gets fired in a rage situation that ruins his reputation in the industry, and is too proud to apply to new jobs, so goes unemployed until he runs out of money. Starts 3 lawsuits on frivolous grounds, 2/3 dismissed and 3rd judgement for defendant.

Do you think its possible this kind of guy might resent the successes of his children, subjectively discredit the merits of those successes, or even try to sabotage them? Is this pleasant for anyone to be around - excepting perhaps histrionics?

Not a stretch, I've worked with extreme NPD's (often after them being forced into therapy by society) and one of the keys is to work from a stand point of they actually want what is best for everyone else, but often see it as they know what is best and everyone else doesn't. They also often don't realize their want is driven out of their own screwed up belief system so you must work within that system to create change or they will never let you in. Now extreme bipolar manics are a different story!!!

It's sort of like playing chess where you allow your pieces to be taken repeatedly to draw an opponent into making his king vulnerable to check mate. Not an easy group at all to work with. Interestingly, a lot of my patients in that category were surgeons, which sort of makes sense.

Actually dependent PD people are often more attracted to and live comfortably with NPD's, as they provide a warped sense of security and excitement. Severe narcissists usually get excited when their children succeed, as it is ALL BECAUSE of them, but they want them to succeed "their way" because there is no other right way to do it.

OP: You'd be surprised at what your parents might do with the right therapist helping. I've seen even the most dogmatic inflexible family members go to therapy to explain to the therapist why their child must stay home, follow the family career path, attend a particular church or mosque, etc. The key is for you to find a good therapist who understands the cultural dynamics first and after a couple of months that therapist can help you pull the family in. Worse case, you've found someone who can help you individuate and build your own family without bringing in the bad baggage from your childhood!!!!

 

[FSAMD]

removed

 

[IsleyOfTheNorth]

I can't get my family on board. They think it's foolish to leave a good career for medicine. They've essentially ostracized me for attempting this. And my gf for going along with it. Things have deteriorated to the point that we're not welcome in my parents house.

Eventually you will be dead. There isn't a second life where you'll get a chance to live the life you want - this one is all you get. If you don't pursue this you'll regret it and end up resenting your parents for the rest of your life.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I had to quit. No way I could attend classes, study, mcat prep, volunteer, etc while working 70hrs a week. I will work as an EMT per diem just to cover some expenses. But my logic was that I needed to devote my full attention to max out gpa and MCAT. I have a 3.7 gpa going in. Would like to go up to 3.8 and shooting for 510-520 on MCAT. Does that reasoning make sense?

Also my postbac has a linkage to 2 state schools. At one of those schools, I am volunteering for a surgical missions organization founded by a professor at the school. My participation is altruistic, but I do think that the adcom will take that as a sign that I am serious about my commitment to that school. Any thoughts?

I finished my degree while helping raise (my wife does a LOT) two kids under two, working 70-80 hours a week including a 24-hr shift every week, doing research, volunteering, and deployment. It's possible.

BUT. I definitely would have quit if I could, so definitely support that decision if you can make it happen. Keeping up with the EMT work will help keep your experiences current, I think. Though that may not even be an issue. The money will be nice, anyway.

My family is thankfully very supportive, but my wife went through something similar (though not as dramatic) when she went to undergrad. She made it happen on her own, and she is successful now, and in a much better place with her folks.