Family Practice Doc crushed with $555K Student Loan Burden

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medicinesux

medicinesux

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Like an out of control growing snowball cruising down a mountainside, this doc will NEVER get out from under this. In one of the lowest paid specialties, she is without a question financially <BLEEPED>.
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She has nobody to blame but herself.

Dr. Bisutti says she loves her work, but regrets taking out so many student loans. She admits that she made mistakes in missing payments, deferring her loans and not being completely thorough with some of the paperwork.
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Blue Dog said:
She has nobody to blame but herself.
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+ 1.

"Maybe half" was her fault for not reading the fine print?!? Much more than half, in my opinion.

She was so delinquent that her account had to be turned over to a collection agency! She didn't stop to think that the consequences of that action would be pretty harsh?

For people like her, it wouldn't matter if med school was only $5,000 a year....her inability to responsibly manage her loans would mean that it would balloon to some exorbitant amount.

Furthermore, as an FP, there are resources to help pay for your loans. Federal loan repayment programs, state loan repayment programs....even some hospitals offer to help repay your loans. If she couldn't figure a way to avoid that much debt, she really has only herself to blame.
 
Blue Dog said:
She has nobody to blame but herself.
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<SIGH> Leave it to a fellow doc to cast the first stone at another. Not surprised as I was completely expecting the judgements to roll in on this one. Anyhow, this is just the tip of the iceberg of the emerging student loan crisis. According to the article, the total outstanding student loan debt in this country is quickly working it's way to 1 TRILLION DOLLARS with barely half of that being actively payed. The other half of these loans are either in deferment, forebearance, or outright default. This is turning out to be one of the biggest transfers of wealth in our country's history from taxpayers (since nearly all student loans are federally backed) to BIG BANKS and UNIVERSITIES. You can point blame all you want but like it or not this is just not her problem now, it is becoming a problem for us all.
Please keep in mind that this physician CAME OUT of medical school nearly seven years ago with 250K in debt. Tuitions have been exploding upwards since. Her story just goes to show how quickly these loans can take off in a relatively short period of time through postponing payments (which is common in residency when you are making a pittance) and God forbid if you default. If a professional doctor can get themselves in a nightmare scenario such as this you can only imagine how many thousands upon thousands of other borrowers out there who took out student loans are faring in this current economic climate. Just go to the facebook forgive student loan debt group (now over 270,000 members) and you will see HUNDREDS of stories of borrowers (and their cosigners and family members) who took out 50K in the recent past and now owe six figures. Welcome to the next bubble.
 
Blue Dog said:
This has nothing to do with being a doctor. I have no sympathy for anyone who borrows money with no plan for paying it back. That's just stupid.



Of course you were. Because it's that obvious.
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I assure you most borrowers out there who borrow money have every intention of paying it back. Whether this intention is realistic or possible is a whole other question. I dare you to post this ridiculous assumption here http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=46657437878 . You will get one serious schooling.

Of course it's obvious....cutting and ignorant comments coming out of doctors mouths never surprise me anymore and are rather expected.
 
Medicinesux preaches the truth.

However, this lady did appear to royally screw up. How does 250k go to 555k in 7-8 years? 6.8% won't do that, and she had much lower rates to begin with!

Something here doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
Coastie said:
How does 250k go to 555k in 7-8 years? 6.8% won't do that, and she had much lower rates to begin with!
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Penalties for defaulting and collection agency fees. Her student loan payment was $1,000/month, according to the article. This should've been manageable for anyone earning the typical FM starting salary.

The article also states that she "juggled other debts" including credit card debt, although the amount is not stated. That's probably the real problem.

Something here doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Her income is never mentioned, although it does say that she completed a fellowship in 2007. Since most FM fellowships don't significantly increase one's income, this doesn't seem like a good way to spend a year when you're already in a financial pickle. She should've been working and paying off her debt.

What also doesn't make sense is why she would put off getting married or having children because of her now-renegotiated loan payments of $1450 per month. What's she waiting for, exactly? It's not like her loans are going to be paid off any time soon (she's on a 30-year payment plan), and a second income would probably be helpful.

If her story is to be a cautionary tale, it says nothing about medicine. What it says is that you can't get out of paying back your student loans, so borrow carefully.
 
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Coastie said:
Medicinesux preaches the truth.

However, this lady did appear to royally screw up. How does 250k go to 555k in 7-8 years? 6.8% won't do that, and she had much lower rates to begin with!

Something here doesn't make a lot of sense.
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"Among the charges: a single $53,870 fee for when her loan was turned over to a collection agency."
That's how 250K went to 555k in 7-8 years
 
there will be many many cases of defaults and doctors being sent to collection agencies as the student loan debt problem has ballooned and will burst soon.
the only sad part is students cant walk away from their degrees as home owners walk away from their homes by declaring bankruptcy... federal loans still have to paid even if you declare bankruptcy
 
I agree with Blue Dog that the moral of this story is to realize you can't just ignore your student loan debts, and that if you are the sort of person who is very bad with money management, that alone may be a good reason to think twice about going to med school.
I absolutely do sympathize with people who have a hard time paying student loan debt due to problems finding employment (including med students who do not match into a residency for some reason), but it is hard to sympathize with someone who was employed the whole time yet apparently chose to ignore the collection attempts on her loan to the point that the company had to contact her dad's neighbor. Since her dad evidently had the money to make the payments she should have asked him to help her a lot sooner...that probably would have saved a lot of hassle and extra fees.

With the mention of the additional credit card debt on top of the student loan debt, I can't help but wonder if the reason she feels she can't get married to her boyfriend due to this debt is because she's one of those people you always hear about who goes into debt for a lavish wedding and wouldn't be satisfied with a simple inexpensive event.
 
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Blue Dog said:
OK, genius...what exactly are we "ignorant" about?
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You're a real rip! I can see that you edited out your ignorant remark that I was referring to "I have no sympathy for anyone who borrows money with no plan for paying it back. That's just stupid".

But I think you forgot to see that I quoted this comment of yours at 10:16. :rolleyes:

Not cool to make me look like the fool here. :mad:
 
Can we get the thread back on topic please?

The fact that she's a doctor doesn't explain this level of debt. The fact that she's an FP doesn't explain her inability to pay this off. She made poor choices that will, indeed, affect her for the rest of her life...so what? Her predicament is no different from the 22 year old who has unprotected sex and now has an unexpected baby on her hands. Or the 60 year old who smoked 2 packs a day and now has lung cancer. I agree that med school debt is a problem, but so are people who are irresponsible enough to let their debt escape their control.
 
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The O.P. appears to be suggesting that this doctor's financial problems are not her fault. Most of those who have responded in the thread appear to feel differently.

I ask again...how is this "ignorant?" What are we missing? If it's not her fault, whose fault is it?
 
Blue Dog said:
What are we missing?
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You are missing the point. The point of me posting this article is not to play the blame game. Rather, it is to bring to light this ever bulging student loan bubble with no signs of stopping. With copious amounts of money dished out to students that are federally guaranteed with our tax dollars, universities have no incentive whatsoever to keep tuitions down. In fact, they continue to wildly outstrip inflation. Planning on having kids? If so, the chart below should scare the crap out of you. As a physician, you can bet your sweet bottom that you will be paying the rack rate since you will be considered "rich" by financial aid administrators.

education.jpg
 
medicinesux said:
You are missing the point. The point of me posting this article is not to play the blame game. Rather, it is to bring to light this ever bulging student loan bubble with no signs of stopping.
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OK...

The supposedly scary aspect of this "bubble" is that students eventually aren't going to be able to pay back their loans, right? It won't be their fault. They simply won't be able to find jobs that allow them to make their loan payments.

That wasn't the case in this situation. This person simply behaved irresponsibly. It was her fault.

Totally different situation.
 
medicinesux said:
<SIGH>:beat:
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Seriously...that's the best you can do? :rolleyes:

Answer the question. How is this anyone's fault but her own?

The point of me posting this article is not to play the blame game.
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Of course, it is. The trouble is, who are you blaming? The schools, for charging too much? The government, for not giving students a "bail-out" like that Facebook page that you mentioned wants them to do? Employers, for not paying enough?

You seem to be overlooking the obvious, which is the fact that nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head and making them borrow money. It's a choice.
 
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Medicinesux, I know your like raison d'etre is to convince the world that everything about the current practice of medicine is dreadful and we should all bail or burn down Washington or something.

But honestly... let's lowball her starting salary at $125,000/yr.

She graduated from residency with roughly twice her annual pre-tax salary in debt. It's steep but it's a fair sight better than most student loan debt. It's certainly payable, and it shouldn't take 30 yrs either.

The real crisis in student loans is the person who stupidly goes to a no-name private college to earn a non-employable degree, who's left with $200,000 in debt and a $30,000 year maximum annual earning potential. *That* person will be paying down that debt for the rest of their adult life.

This person is a singular example of gross financial incompetence. It has nothing to do with being a doctor at all, let alone with her specialty. She had-- uniquely, it seems-- the actual financial wherewithal to both pay back those loans and to live a reasonably comfortable, middle-class life while doing so.
 
Blue Dog said:
Seriously...that's the best you can do? :rolleyes:

Answer the question. How is this anyone's fault but her own?



Of course, it is. The trouble is, who are you blaming? The schools, for charging too much? The government, for not giving students a "bail-out" like that Facebook page that you mentioned wants them to do? Employers, for not paying enough?

You seem to be overlooking the obvious, which is the fact that nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head and making them borrow money. It's a choice.
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Forest for the trees. Do you see a problem, in general, with the current situation? You're hung up on whether this doctor was stupid or not, but that's not really the point.
 
I do feel bad for her because she doesn't have the skills at this point to take care of her own problems. However, I have a lot less sympathy for this woman than I do for someone who goes bankrupt due to medical expenses.

The problem with allowing bankruptcy in this case is multifactorial. First, even if BR were available, she has a good income and a court may not permit a liquidation BR. However, can you imagine the impact of allowing student loans to discharged in BR -- everybody who does to professional school would just do it upon graduation!

This woman really needs to grow up. If she is proactive she can fix this quickly. Here is what she needs to do:

1) MOVE. You can make a lot of money if you pick the right location. You may end up in Butte, MT, but you can make bank. This also gives the benefit of living in a low cost of living area.

2) Dump the other debt. Get rid of the credit cards, stop paying them and the negotiate paying them down -- she can likely pay 25 cents on the dollar once in default.

3) Live like a pauper. Get a cheap apartment, get a roommate, buy a 2000 car. Stop eating out, but clothes at goodwill, no vacations.

4) Stop blaming others for your situation. Until she takes responsibility for her choices, she'll never fix it.

With this plan and some moonlighting, she make 175-200K yearly, she could easily pay this debt down by 75K to 100K a year. 6-7 years and she's done.

I love the last few lines about how she can't buy house or a NEW car. That is a true reflection on how our society thinks.

Ed
 
People are focused on this lady for some reason. Fine, she sucks. Yay.

People who graduated 7 years ago think they're being helpful when they tell us that their 150k debt isn't unmanageable.

The average yearly cost of attendance at most schools is heading north of 60k a year and growing far faster than inflation. If you JUST take what they give you as an assumption of the minimum needed to get by, you will graduate with over 250, far more than people did just a few years ago due to ballooning tuition. But the federal government has cancelled those sweet economic hardship deferrals you guys got. So our loans go into forbearance. But wait, our Stafford loan rates are three times what yours were. So they rack up massive interest during residency. What I would like people to recognize is that the growth in debt is not even remotely close to linear. I'm not sure what the solution will be, but I don't see a long term future where every young doctor carries 500k in debt.
 
UPDATE: The internet is a beautiful thing. Just got a tweet back from Suze Orman. Yes, THE Suze Orman after I tweeted asking her if she ever heard of a student loan debt this high. Here was her response:

"NO but I have seen many Student Loans that double cause of deferment- so I believe it "

https://twitter.com/SuzeOrmanShow

This sure beats the response I got from Suzanne Somers a couple months back when she deleted my comments on her blog about her new quack cancer book.
 
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Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't $500K just regular amount of debt for medstudents by the time they're done with residency (includes compound interest)? Some schools leave you as much as over $350K in debt which over the years of residency can surpass even $700K (I am assuming the resident doesn't make any payments while in training). If that's the case here, then the real question is why can't she afford even the $500K loan, regardless of how she got there.
 
She could do public service health somewhere say on an indian reservation and have her debt paid for her. She is not looking at her options.

I will have a freakin' boatload of debt. I've looked into income based repayment, and if I pay only what I am scheduled for, even with a job at $175000, the government will be paying off my loans after 25 years. If I get a job making $150000, the government will pay off the FULL AMOUNT of my loans after 25 years if I only do my IBR payment. Scary.

However, if I pay twice the IBR monthly payment (which really shouldn't be a problem as long as I don't go wild buying crap and don't buy a mansion to live in), I will pay it all off in 10 years.

So, let me see. Can I actually live on $70K take home (after taxes)? Yup. VERY comfortably. So I'll be driving a Kia instead of a Mercedes or BMW. So what. And I'll still have at least $30K/yr for loan payments. If I want to live on $50K/yr take home, I can even put $20K/yr into a retirement account. As for vacations - so far I fix my house on vacation. And my 13 year old car. Tell her to read a book and figure out how to fix crap herself. I did.

Now, you may not be able to live very well in NYC for that money, but you can sure make that kind of money a lot of places and live very comfortably on those figures.
 
dilated said:
People are focused on this lady for some reason. Fine, she sucks. Yay.

People who graduated 7 years ago think they're being helpful when they tell us that their 150k debt isn't unmanageable.

The average yearly cost of attendance at most schools is heading north of 60k a year and growing far faster than inflation. If you JUST take what they give you as an assumption of the minimum needed to get by, you will graduate with over 250, far more than people did just a few years ago due to ballooning tuition. But the federal government has cancelled those sweet economic hardship deferrals you guys got. So our loans go into forbearance. But wait, our Stafford loan rates are three times what yours were. So they rack up massive interest during residency. What I would like people to recognize is that the growth in debt is not even remotely close to linear. I'm not sure what the solution will be, but I don't see a long term future where every young doctor carries 500k in debt.
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I agree. Although some of the finance fees and "screw ups" are unique to this case, it's more and more common to see folks coming out of med school with a combined undergrad and med school debt of greater than $200k, and I've certainly known a few folks who broke the $300k mark. This amount grows during residency and will he very hard to pay off with a lot of the non-competitive specialty salaries. Even if one can service this debt load, it seriously cuts into your lifestyle, and you will end up with a generation of extremely educated and trained people working very long hours and living very modest lives. Which is a big change from the upper class doctors of yesteryear. The "golden age" of medicine is basically over. It's still a decent career, but not one you go into primarily for the income.

Not much to do about this -- people need to decide if it's truly "worth it" to mortgage their future in this way to pursue the career they desire. But it's certainly something premeds should take into consideration, rather than getting excited about the "guaranteed six digit salary" folks on pre-allo sometimes drool over.
 
dilated said:
People are focused on this lady for some reason. Fine, she sucks. Yay.

People who graduated 7 years ago think they're being helpful when they tell us that their 150k debt isn't unmanageable.

The average yearly cost of attendance at most schools is heading north of 60k a year and growing far faster than inflation. If you JUST take what they give you as an assumption of the minimum needed to get by, you will graduate with over 250, far more than people did just a few years ago due to ballooning tuition. But the federal government has cancelled those sweet economic hardship deferrals you guys got. So our loans go into forbearance. But wait, our Stafford loan rates are three times what yours were. So they rack up massive interest during residency. What I would like people to recognize is that the growth in debt is not even remotely close to linear. I'm not sure what the solution will be, but I don't see a long term future where every young doctor carries 500k in debt.
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She graduated with 250k and her debt was very manageable for someone with a salary of 150-200k. Also there are several programs tailored to help those in primary care with student debt.

Your point about the spiraling cost of medical school and future student debt is a valid one but it has nothing to do with this lady.
 
Regular? God no. The average reported stats are nowhere near that, and anecdotally I don't know anyone with that kind of burden.

I'd wager that a good deal of it depends on your schooling choices. If you went to a private university that charges Ivy-tuition without Ivy-endowment, you'll have a great deal of undergrad debt. Then a private med school again without a big endowment (say, a Caribbean school or an osteopathic one) will again lead to you borrowing almost all of the stated tuition costs. That of course snowballs with interest so you could see those sorts of stratospheric numbers.
 
Endolas said:
Forest for the trees. Do you see a problem, in general, with the current situation? You're hung up on whether this doctor was stupid or not, but that's not really the point.
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Not particularly.

Sure, I think med school should be (a lot) cheaper.

But I think that the main problem is the belief that you'll be on financial easy street, by default, just by being a physician. With careful money management, you'll be comfortable. You may even be wealthy. But, by no means is becoming a doctor a cheap path....the only problem I see with this situation is that many people don't seem to understand that.

I just don't see how this particular example is indicative of, well, anything. Do I think we're on the verge of a huge loan bubble? Not really. She didn't have to take out that many loans. She didn't have to attend a Caribbean school (which, from a quick google search, is what she evidently did) - the Caribbean schools are frequently more expensive than US med schools. She doesn't need credit card debt, and she certainly didn't need to default on her loans. You have to calculate whether you think your path to med school is financially tenable. Based on this doctor's level of financial ignorance, and some poor decisions on her part, the answer is a resounding "no"....too bad she didn't see that until after she made her choices.
 
ShyRem said:
I will have a freakin' boatload of debt. I've looked into income based repayment, and if I pay only what I am scheduled for, even with a job at $175000, the government will be paying off my loans after 25 years. If I get a job making $150000, the government will pay off the FULL AMOUNT of my loans after 25 years if I only do my IBR payment. Scary.
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Anyone who counts on this is a sucker. It's not a contractual agreement, Congress can at any point in the next 25 years say that they're changing it. And the terms make no sense at all - they pay off whatever's left, so everyone should try to get as many loans as possible and rack them up as far as you can because it's the same if you have $1 left after 25 years or $500k. The only thing that's guaranteed is that Congress will realize this some time in the next 25 years and no doctors are getting 500k of debt paid off.
 
I agree. And thus my follow-up discussion.

The other problem with IBR and "forgiving" your debt is that if they government does have to "forgive" your debt, it's counted as "income". It would truly stink to have "income" of over $500K in one year (counting your salary and the forgiven debt together) and not be able to pay all the taxes on it. I mean, really, can you imagine? A tax bill more than your annual salary? Jiminies.
 
This issue has been discussed before, and my comments this time are similar to last time.

I agree with MedSux (as much as it hurts...) that we have a big educational loan bubble problem. However, physicans / medical school is not really the problem, and this doc's story is a bad example.

The bubble is simply this: People are being convinced that you can't get anywhere in this country without a college education. So, large numbers of people are going to college who, perhaps, would be better off not doing so. They are taking out large loans. The loan originators don't really care how likely they are to repay them, since they are backed by the gov't and non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. The students happily sign the loans without really understanding what they mean, convinced that they will simply be able to pay them back without a problem once they graduate from college and get a great high paying job. When they actually do graduate from college they find there are no great jobs, that the only job they can get is one they didn't need a college education for, and they have all this debt they can't afford. Plus, of course, like most americans, they live high on the hog and have large other debts including credit cards.

This case is not a good example of this -- simply because if you go to medical school and then residency, you actually DO get a job that allows you to pay off your debts. As others in this thread have mentioned, this woman simply mismanaged her life and now is in huge amounts of debt. This is completely "her fault" as she could have relatively easily paid off the debt had she paid attention, not racked up tons of other debt (hinted at in the article), etc.

Medical students do have some of the same problems -- many go to medical school and take out loans without understanding exactly what they mean. The difference is that physicians, even those in the lowest paid specialties, should be able to pay off their debts -- although the "cost" may be living at a much lower standard of living than they "expected". Carib medical schools that have federal loan guarantees are part of the problem, as students there are much less likely to graduate and/or ger residencies.

I agree with others -- this physician's problem is completely of her own making. I do agree that $250K of debt for medical school seems excessive, but it is completely managable if done correctly.
 
Excelsius said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't $500K just regular amount of debt for medstudents by the time they're done with residency (includes compound interest)?
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Unlikely. According to the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC), the average educational debt of indebted graduates of the class of 2009 was $156,456.

Source: http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/abo...on/advocacy-policy/medical-student-debt.shtml

With this beginning balance, at 6.8% interest (the fixed rate for a Federal Stafford) over a 10-year payback, the cumulative payments (with interest) would be $216,060.14. This doesn't include any loan fees, but their effect on the total would be negligible.

Source: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi
 
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Few thoughts.

I hope most people don't think that it's usual to have 500-700k debt after medical school.

250k in 2003 is a ton of borrowing. That's more than the average of med student debt in 2010. It looks like she took out some "physician loans" too. BAD idea.

The doctor in the article could have reduced her debt considerably by moonlighting during fellowship. Unless she had family with medical expenses or something, there's no reason why an unmarried resident should incur credit card debt. I easily save several hundred dollars a month while paying back some of my student loans (the rest are in deferment). That's with a condo. Her situation is entirely self caused, and nobody should feel sorry for her except herself and probably her parents who didn't teach her how to manage money like a reasonable adult.

Her situation does however highlight the huge problem of education debt. The problem is created by public-private partnerships between government and business. These kinds of arrangements cause severe perversions of the free market system. This is seen with healthcare, housing, securities... you name it. The government needs to either back these loans directly, leave it to the private sector to give out loans based on free market principles. They can even do both. But what they can't do is try to mesh the two together. This disasterous middle ground where the government subsidizes companies is ruining the country. The progressives and libertarians have fundamentally different perspectives when it comes to the role of government, but they are both correct that the system as it currently stands is horrible.
 
Blue Dog said:
Unlikely. According to the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC), the average educational debt of indebted graduates of the class of 2009 was $156,456.

Source: http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/abo...on/advocacy-policy/medical-student-debt.shtml

With this beginning balance, at 6.8% interest (the fixed rate for a Federal Stafford) over a 10-year payback, the cumulative payments (with interest) would be $216,060.14. This doesn't include any loan fees, but their effect on the total would be negligible.

Source: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi
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The downside of the average debt figures is that it includes debt levels for people who don't borrow at all (military, rich people, etc..). If you had debt levels for people who did have to borrow to pay for school, the figure would probably be closer to if not higher than $200k. $250k for 4 years of medical school for a student with no outside support is pretty reasonable.

You're right, though, that a big part of her problem is that she screwed up and went into default.
 
It's sad that people this stupid with money are smart enough for medical school.
 
I agree this person was irresponsible.

However, I disagree with Bluedog's contention above that a med student can, or should, pay off the 150k debt on a 10 year repayment plan. That wouldn't be possible for the vast majority to do, simply because residency plus fellowship takes 3-10 years and one cannot pay off student loans of that magnitude on a 10-year repayment plan on a residency or fellowship salary. I am able to pay off my 130k in loans on a fellowship salary on a 30 year repayment plan, but those are at 2.9% and the payments are only 540/month. For a 10 year repayment, they would be 1300/month plus, and of course much more for today's grads who have to pay 6.8% interest. I do think that some of today's med school grads are making a bad choice by deferring ALL of their student loan payments, though...at least one should try to pay off the interest, or as much of it as possible, during residency. I know an intern who is living in a house with rent of $1300-1500/month, while I'm living (on my fellowship salary) in the nicest apartment I've ever had, for $950/month (still a lot in my book).

I agree w/the above comment...what we have not is a situation where the gov't/taxpayers are essentially subsidizing the big banks and universities and colleges. Ultimately, it's not a sustainable plan, nor is it fair to the taxpayers. I do agree that a private college grad with 80 or 90k student loan debt and some degree that isn't going to get him/her a job paying >average salary is in worse shape than a doc graduating with 150k student loan debt (assuming he/she got into residency).
 
MLT2MT2DO said:
It's sad that people this stupid with money are smart enough for medical school.
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Yet you see a ton of it in med school. People going on vacations, eating out, buying new things. All that happens with loan money. I'm proud to be cheap and weigh the options of buying one thing or the other. I can't say the same for many of my counterparts. They just get both.
 
dragonfly99 said:
I disagree with Bluedog's contention above that a med student can, or should, pay off the 150k debt on a 10 year repayment plan.
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I didn't "contend" anything. A 10-year payback is the default for that particular financial calculator.
 
Blue Dog said:
With this beginning balance, at 6.8% interest (the fixed rate for a Federal Stafford) over a 10-year payback, the cumulative payments (with interest) would be $216,060.14. This doesn't include any loan fees, but their effect on the total would be negligible.

Source: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi
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I am confused as to how you propose people with 45k gross income pay over 20k a year in loan repayments.
 
dilated said:
I am confused as to how you propose people with 45k gross income pay over 20k a year in loan repayments.
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I am not "proposing" anything. The only purpose of that exercise was simply to illustrate that the average debt load won't get you anywhere near $500,000 in principle + interest.

Even if you extend the term to 30 years, it still only comes to $367,188.19.

Now, if you plug in $250,000 for the principle and pay it off over 30 years, it comes to $586,735.10.

But, as others have noted, that's a lot of debt, and more than most people will have.
 
All I have to say is that many schools need to think twice about any "no work" policy while students attend medical school. It seems that there may be more opportunity to work during medical school than trying to work extra while working residency hours. I know some do this, but it's tough.


Plus, what about amortorizing and increasing payment on principle even if the loan is approved over a longer period of time? Plenty of people pay off their home mortgages quicker this way. They simply have be careful how they do this so that they can optimize the tax break.

Bottom line, if we borrow anything we had better be prepared to pay it off.

What a freaking nightmare.
 
peppy said:
I agree with Blue Dog that the moral of this story is to realize you can't just ignore your student loan debts, and that if you are the sort of person who is very bad with money management, that alone may be a good reason to think twice about going to med school.

With the mention of the additional credit card debt on top of the student loan debt, I can't help but wonder if the reason she feels she can't get married to her boyfriend due to this debt is because she's one of those people you always hear about who goes into debt for a lavish wedding and wouldn't be satisfied with a simple inexpensive event.
Click to expand...

I agree with this and previous sentiments saying that this is her money management issues rather than med school by itself - there is no doubt that tuitions are rather ridiculous, including my own, but I have been very careful with my money. If I have money left over close to the end of the semester, I send it right back to the federal government and lower my loans. Though a couple of thousand here and there seems like a drop in the bucket right now, the savings will definitely add up. I'm also looking at getting a (hopefully well) paid summer internship to a) keep me busy, b) help my residency apps in the future and 3) allow me to bring my loan amount down even more. Oh, and I pay the full balance on my credit card pretty much every two weeks. My credit score is rockin', even with the loans, and will hopefully stay that way.

Yes, we are getting into ridiculous amounts of debt, but it's not that difficult if you are smart and plan well. Unfortunately, too many pre-meds, including the woman in the article, know so so little about the real world.
 
sunset823 said:
My credit score is rockin', even with the loans, and will hopefully stay that way.
Click to expand...

Thankfully, student loan debt (unless defaulted on obviously) doesn't have much of an effect on credit ratings. Again, this assumes you are currently meeting your burden described in the terms of the loan or are in deferrment.
 
What is the cheapest cost to be a doctor at a reasonable medical school? When you get loan, how much you can borrow and for what, like tuition, room and board?

Lets say you do NOT include

MD/PhD program
Federal aid program which are meant to do research after/during fellowship
or any special aid or in state reduction
 
Last edited:
Blue Dog said:
...
Now, if you plug in $250,000 for the principle and pay it off over 30 years, it comes to $586,735.10.

But, as others have noted, that's a lot of debt, and more than most people will have.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it's as uncommon as you suggest. Lots of people still have undergrad debt on top of the med school debt, and if the prior year average med school debt is $160k, then (as doctorbagel suggests) if you eliminate those X% of folks who had family pay (i.e no debt) then what you are left with is probably a ton of people with over $200k in debt and many over $250k. As I've mentioned, I've personally met a few who have broken the $300k mark once you include undergrad debt. So we are talking about a sizeable number of people who will be trying to pay off the kind of debt described here. They probably won't make the kind of blunders the woman in the above example made with finance charges, but this kind of debt impacts lifestyle for the next 30 years, unless you get into a cushy high paying specialty. If you end up with one of those $110k/year psych or peds jobs, you may not ever be able to afford home ownership or other things the prior generation of doctors took for granted.
 
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