Faith and Medicine

[SocialistMD]

If I found the car keys that I've been trying to locate for hours, I no longer need to search for them!

And is that where you found God, too? Under the couch cushion next to some stale Ruffles and $0.67 in change? My point was to lead into the discussion of faith and how it isn't something preaching (or listing a slew of Bible verses) can help one discover.

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[DrOctopus]

Or that a perfect God is petty enough to allow only those who believe a certain way to reap certain rewards or that he would allow such an illogical concept as “Hell” to exist to punish people who just didn’t get it in life. Why should He care- He is God, He gave us free will (and might I add it is NOT free will if you MUST believe certain ways or suffer the consequences) - He would not punish us for this gift.

The concept of Hell is one of the biggest contradictions in Judeo-Christian theology.

Others include things like "Violence against man is wrong, unless it is in God's name." I will never understand this. I read an article in last Sunday's New York Times Magazine about the Christian video game industry and how these companies said they came up because 1) there were no Christian video games and 2) that other mainstream games promoted violence and Satanism. But the descriptions of some of the games (one was a version of the Spanish Inquisition) were just as violent as their secular conterparts. However, that was ok since it was done in the name of God.


In regards to the study about patients' attitudes towards sprituality inquiries, I believe it was this article:

"Do Patients want Physicians to Inquire about their Spiritual or Religious Beliefs if they become Gravely Ill?" Arch Int. Med. 159(15) pp 1803-1806, 1999.

While the data did show that more than 66% would welcome inquiries in the event they became gravely ill, it is important to understand how this study was done. It was performed at a single suburban outpatient pumlmonary clinic affiliated with one hospital (University of Pennsylvania). They surveyed 214 people, and only 177 were suitable for the study. The data also showed an 51% of people were religious or very religious, and large majorities believed in life after death (77%) and that prayer aided in recovery (90%). However, the demographics of this study were rather narrow, with 63% white and 75% Christian. Also, 57% of individuals surveyed had only a high school education.

That study's results also contradicted three other studies done previously that suggested that only a minority of patients would welcome being questioned about religious or spiritual beliefs in the outpatient specialty or family practice setting (21%-40%) [I haven't read those studies so I can't comment on the validity of the testing there]

 

[fang]

fang,

I'd absolutely LOVE IT if my doctor were a muslim and we actually opened a dialogue about our faiths. What an amazing opportunity for me! Only good could come from it. so......yes...I'm absolutely fine with my doctor talking to me about his faith.

what's the big deal?

later

You guys are missing the point. How do you think this person feels? He's dying of some disease-- he might feel angry, afraid, resentful, or maybe cheated. He's not questioning his religion right now; he's secure in his faith as a Christian. You're his doctor, and he wants medical advice, to hear you will be with him through this process, that you'll help him any way you can physically and be there for him emotionally. Now he might be thinking, "I don't share Dr. Smith's faith and he obviously is interested in asking me to question my beliefs and consider his. Will he take as good care of me as a fellow Muslim? What if I don't want to change my mind? Maybe if I tell him I'll consider his views he'll take an extra interest in my case".

This isn't someone you met on the bus who has never "heard the word", this is a man in a vulnerable position who needs to be 100% sure his doctor is on his side.

My example here is much different than bringing up the idea of spirituality, and then offering to learn about the patient's faith and participating in it. I would definitely pray with a patient, and I'm not saying it's always wrong to talk about religion. However, it IS wrong to do what you propose in this thread; you're taking advantage of a doctor-patient relationship to push your own agenda.

 

[jonb12997]

I definetly feel like a lot (notice I didn't say all) of the "studies" that claim to show that bringing up religion is preferred by a majority of patients (like was talked about above) are not the best designed, and I really don't think can and should be used in a discussion like this... I do feel like there are some times that it is appropriate to bring up religion and spirituality in a patient setting, but as a "scientist" I can not accept the generalized statements that these studies make, that some people use to defend their arguements in this discussion...

 

[ZephyrX]

I don't know where you got your reference from, perhaps you can quote it in the original hebrew, greek or latin?

The new testament was written in Ancient Greek and thats what i am refering to. The word that was translated (wrongly) into homosexuals, was "malakoi". It's the gender specific (male) - plural form of "malakos" which means "soft".

As i said, it doesn't matter but i was just pointing out.

 

[ZephyrX]

fang,

I'd absolutely LOVE IT if my doctor were a muslim and we actually opened a dialogue about our faiths. What an amazing opportunity for me! Only good could come from it. so......yes...I'm absolutely fine with my doctor talking to me about his faith.

what's the big deal?

later

Yeah, an internist running 45 minutes to an hour behind schedule would sit there discussing religion .

 

[12R34Y]

Yeah, an internist running 45 minutes to an hour behind schedule would sit there discussing religion .

what? this was a hypothetical situation someone was referring too. what are you talking about?

is this some random observation that adds nothing to the conversation?

later

 

[mfrederi]

In this country, it is next to impossible for this to be the case, thus making the discussion unnecessary. Christianity is rampant in the United States and one must be living in a cave (and not in your hospital, grocery store or university quad) to never have had the exposure. If someone wants to know more, they will seek out that knowledge, not look for it to come to them.

this is true. As is the fact that everybody knows smoking gives you cancer, fast food gives you heart disease, and Cokes give you DM. You would have to be living under a bigger rock to ignore this information. However many people ignore it day after day and pretend like they don't know or have never heard. Sometimes, eventually, you will have a pt that a little light bulb goes on when you tell them that eating Big Macs is going to kill them. For the 30 pts you alienate by telling to drop some lbs the one that listens and you are able to lengthen their life by 10-20 years it is worth it. It is the same with the Gospel message. There are certain times in people's lives that events conspire to allow them to be more ripe for accepting Christ's salvation. I went to Bible classes one or two times a week growing up, but as soon as I graduated HS was done with it. It took alot of changes and humbling in my life before a friend was able to share Christ with me and I was able to accept His truth.


Quote: 1. More often than not, this isn't how the discussion goes.
2. If someone is open to the possibility, it will have been the case before the discussion and not after, thus making the discussion unnecessary.

The first part is true- the majority of pts will not be interested in discussing this with you. However, more than you would expect have an open mind. But, this open mind is no good if there is nothing to consider. So while a pt may come in with an open mind, if you never broach the subject of Christ with that pt they will leave with some abx and open mind, but nothing more. If you use their openness to create a dialouge about faith, then you are accomplishing something fruitful. Honestly, a lot of people consider life and death, eternity, the existence of God. But many seek this out with timidity and may never get around to the answer for lack of confidence or fear of judgement. By being proactive you are meeting that person's quiet search halfway, so they don't have to go find a pastor or whatever as some have suggested.



Quote: Exactly, which (again) makes the discussion unnecessary. Those who are open to the possibility will not have their faith "confirmed" based on a discussion with a person. It will come from God in the form of a feeling of peace, a personal miracle or a beautiful sunset.

Why did Jesus talk to people then? If it is just a feeling you have w/in yourself why did Jesus even bother?

 

[ZephyrX]

what? this was a hypothetical situation someone was referring too. what are you talking about?

is this some random observation that adds nothing to the conversation?

later

Your hypothetical situation (where you welcome discussion with your physician about religion) is pretty much BS because it could never be reality. So you agreed on something from the safety that such situation would never take place.

Scenarios and hypothetical questions are fine provided that they are not unrealistic. It is unrealistic though to expect a physician to discuss religious stuff under any situation. Putting aside the fact that most patients wouldn't want to listen, most doctors don't have the time in any professional setting to discuss religion with their patients (and thats IF they even have patient contact). Which makes me wonder if you are a medical student or just another Christianonutjob pre-med.


So if you expect that your are going to be a doctor/preacher you have a rude awakening ahead of you.

 

[curlycity]

I am curious what kinds of things you have seen physicians do to incorporate their faith into their practice? Do any of you have ideas about how you intend to incorporate your faith into your practice? What do you believe the role of faith in medicine should be?

I recently attended an elective where this was one of the topics, and the speaking geriatrician said that among those patients who brought it up, and asked him if he believed in God, when they were very sick or dying or anxious, and he said that he did, they found that comforting. They were comforted that their doc shared their beliefs. He also said things like 'I'm here as a vessel for God's work," and they liked that too. He said praying with patients who requested it was very comforting to them as well.

One thing he also says when people ask him negatives, basically 'do you think I'm going to Hell' or something like that, he uses "It doesn't matter what I think about that, I'm just here to try to make you well."

 

[SocialistMD]

I recently attended an elective where this was one of the topics, and the speaking geriatrician said that among those patients who brought it up, and asked him if he believed in God, when they were very sick or dying or anxious, and he said that he did, they found that comforting. They were comforted that their doc shared their beliefs. He also said things like 'I'm here as a vessel for God's work," and they liked that too. He said praying with patients who requested it was very comforting to them as well.

That's a different issue. How I interpreted trubdub's question (and at the very least, the turn this thread has taken) was how should one bring faith to the patients, not how should one deal with the patient's asking for it. I agree, it isn't a good idea to tell the patient s/he will be going to hell and it is ok to discuss the issue when the patient starts the discussion. I just feel it is inappropriate to lay it on the patient unprovoked.

 

[Hoya11]

That's a different issue. How I interpreted trubdub's question (and at the very least, the turn this thread has taken) was how should one bring faith to the patients, not how should one deal with the patient's asking for it. I agree, it isn't a good idea to tell the patient s/he will be going to hell and it is ok to discuss the issue when the patient starts the discussion. I just feel it is inappropriate to lay it on the patient unprovoked.

Agree 100%

 

[jonb12997]

That's a different issue. How I interpreted trubdub's question (and at the very least, the turn this thread has taken) was how should one bring faith to the patients, not how should one deal with the patient's asking for it. I agree, it isn't a good idea to tell the patient s/he will be going to hell and it is ok to discuss the issue when the patient starts the discussion. I just feel it is inappropriate to lay it on the patient unprovoked.

I would think the majority of christian physicians (and medical students) would agree with you... I know I certainly do. I'm not out to forcibly convert the entire world (can we say the crusades), but rather to live as examples, and if someone approaches me, then at that point I have the right to discuss my beliefs.

 

[v-tach]

I would think the majority of christian physicians (and medical students) would agree with you... I know I certainly do. I'm not out to forcibly convert the entire world (can we say the crusades), but rather to live as examples, and if someone approaches me, then at that point I have the right to discuss my beliefs.

I am reminded of the passage in 2 Peter about always being ready to give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope that is in you, but doing so with gentleness and respect. In other words, take the opportunity to share when it presents itself, but don't try to force anything on people. And we can ALWAYS be an example; nobody needs to ask us for that. In fact, just "being an example" can then lead to a person asking a question, providing an opportunity to share.

 

[IlianaSedai]

Responding with my "gut" answer. I didn't read all the posts before mine.

As a medical student, I have seen VERY FEW fellow medical students, residents and attending physicians who profess to any faith at all. Same with the rest of the hospital staff. But among everyone there, I think it's the physicians who may be the LEAST concerned with anything related to faith and spirituality. Most of us medical people -- namely, physicians -- don't have much going on, faith-wise. Most also seem to be happy that way

But PATIENTS, on the other hand. Many patients request chaplain services during their hospital stay. One of my first patients as a medical student stopped me and said, "Please pray for me!" Patients are more concerned about faith than we physicians, as a group, are. Patients are the ones who are questioning issues of existence, spirituality, divinity, suffering, and death. They, their families and their communities are the ones who are praying.

If a patient should say to you, "Pray for me!" what will you do? What will you say? How will you respond? And if you say, "I will," are you telling the truth or are you fudging the most appropriate response? If you nod or say you will pray for someone, will you? What if, to that patient, prayer is not insubstantial but very much an action with material results, same as a new medication or clot-busting drugs or a surgical procedure? Is it right, then, to promise it but not to deliver that promise?

Physicians, in general, may hate organized religion, or faith, or Christianity, or proselytization, but if you're in the USA, 90% of people apparently believe in God and even profess to be Christian. These are OUR PATIENTS. It is NOT TRUE that our patients don't want to hear anything about God, or faith, or death and what comes after. It is simply that, as physicians, we don't know enough about faith. We don't know how to address it. Just as I was at a loss and unable to give a HELPFUL answer when a patient asked me, "What kinds of foods are good for cholesterol?" I can give half an answer, or a vague answer, but nowhere near as much as a dietician could give.

Even if we want nothing to do with faith, by that very request, "Pray for me," we have left the safety of evidence-based medicine and entered the realm of the spiritual. Just as it may be inappropriate to evangelize a patient who doesn't want to hear anything about faith, it may be equally inappropriate to take an attitude of "I want nothing to do with religion" to a patient whose illness is a matter of faith. There are many things physicians should learn more about: cross-cultural communication, empathy, ethics, end of life issues. I think faith -- and sensitive communication with patients about faith, if needed -- should be counted among them.

To answer the original question of how one integrates faith and medicine.... My first piece of advice is simply to make a commitment to continue exploring your faith throughout your medical training. If you went to services before, make an extra effort to continue doing so in medical school. Keep working at it, because the busy-ness of medical training tends to stamp that out of people relatively quickly. If you don't take the initiative to become part of a faith community, it's easy to get isolated and drop out of the picture. Find some like-minded people to talk to from time to time and to explore issues of faith throughout your training.

 

[12R34Y]

Your hypothetical situation (where you welcome discussion with your physician about religion) is pretty much BS because it could never be reality. So you agreed on something from the safety that such situation would never take place.

Scenarios and hypothetical questions are fine provided that they are not unrealistic. It is unrealistic though to expect a physician to discuss religious stuff under any situation. Putting aside the fact that most patients wouldn't want to listen, most doctors don't have the time in any professional setting to discuss religion with their patients (and thats IF they even have patient contact). Which makes me wonder if you are a medical student or just another Christianonutjob pre-med.


So if you expect that your are going to be a doctor/preacher you have a rude awakening ahead of you.

Well, the fact that I'm finishing up my third year in medical school should bear no impact on this conversation. However, I'm wondering if you aren't the premed.

Currently, in my geriatric clinic they spend about 30-45 minutes/patient and they address all of their needs. that includes spiritual. Also, most of the patients on inpatient wards always have a spiritual history taken as well, which discusses their belief system and religion (if they have one) so you know how to better care for them. Not uncommon at all......, but being a premed how would you know this.

later

 

[12R34Y]

Your hypothetical situation (where you welcome discussion with your physician about religion) is pretty much BS because it could never be reality. So you agreed on something from the safety that such situation would never take place.

Scenarios and hypothetical questions are fine provided that they are not unrealistic. It is unrealistic though to expect a physician to discuss religious stuff under any situation. Putting aside the fact that most patients wouldn't want to listen, most doctors don't have the time in any professional setting to discuss religion with their patients (and thats IF they even have patient contact). Which makes me wonder if you are a medical student or just another Christianonutjob pre-med.


So if you expect that your are going to be a doctor/preacher you have a rude awakening ahead of you.

And althought the spiritual history may be very brief and take only a couple of minutes it opens the dialogue and may in future visits over time come up more and more especially if they are comfortable talking about spiritual things with you. These conversations don't take place in "one visit", but over months, years in follow-up as your relationship with a patient evolves these things can easily be discussed.

have you ever been in a primary care clinic?

later

 

[SocialistMD]

have you ever been in a primary care clinic?

You do understand how issuing this challenge was a mistake, right?

Everyone on SDN always has a trump card...

 

[12R34Y]

You do understand how issuing this challenge was a mistake, right?

Everyone on SDN always has a trump card...

hardly a challenge. reading into this a little much me thinks.
merely a question. My point is that these encounters of spiritual discussions can and do occur quite frequently and regularly in many institutions/clinics that I've rotated through. Its a huge part or providing complete patient care. If its not occuring then there is a problem......usually on the doc's/med students side b/c there is plenty of time to discuss this kind of stuff over time with a regular patient.

It amazes me that people think that there isn't time for this, but i haven't had a rotation where one of the docs is like, "Hey, so how'd that wedding go last month.....or......isn't your son getting ready to graduate blah blah blah." when do you think this information was elicted? on email? it was through discussion during visits.

Sure, if you are working in an ED or urgent care with very little continuation of care or follow-up and no "routine patients" other than the drug seekers, frequent flyers etc.... of course you aren't going to be able to bring up spiritual stuff and talk about it in depth.

later

 

[DoctaJay]

I just read this whole thread through, and I don't understand where all the anger is coming from. Atheists (which many aspiring doctors are) won't ever agree with Christians, lets leave it at that. They think we are uncompromising, judgemental, fanatical kooks, and we think they are ignorant, deluded individuals who will be kicking themselves when Jesus comes back and they realize that everything we were saying was right. We will never agree, so why do we continue to argue? Anyway, I'm a diarist on premeddiary.com, and I've been flamed for my beliefs many times, but I'm fine with that. The problem with many atheists is that they believe that we plan to force this stuff down peoples throats. Here is how I see my meetings with my patients playing out, before they go into surgery:

Me: Mr. Johnson, you understand that this surgery is very complicated and dangerous, and that I can't rule out an unfavorable outcome.

Mr. Johnson: Yes, Dr. Brooks I understand that, but its either I have the surgery and maybe die after, or I don't have the surgery and I definitely die.

Me: Sounds good Mr. Johnson. Now if you will excuse me, I always pray before my surgeries. You can step outside, and the nurses will prep you for the surgery, or you can join me if you like. This is of course, completely optional.
----------------------------------------------------------------
If Mr. Johnson says yes, thats great, if he says no, thats fine too. In this world, we are given a plethora of choices, and options. People can choose which denomination to join, or they can choose to reject God completely. We can choose lettuce, tomatoes, and teriakyi chicken on our Subway sandwich, or we can get peppers, ham, and pepper jack sauce. Everyday we are presented with different options, and we DECIDE which one to take. I will always present that option to my patients, if they reject that, I have not offended them. If I choose chicken, instead of ham, I haven't offended the Subway employee making my sandwich. I know that I'll be praying before I preform surgery. If my patient decides to pray with me he can, but if he doesn't, he can go get prepped. No preaching, no forcing. Religion and forcing dont' go hand in hand. I know the analogies aren't too good, but pay attention to the meat (no pun intended) of my message.

 

[Elysium]

My dad has been an internist for 30 years and is also a practicing Catholic (which doesn't have the same zealotry that some other Christian religions do) and yet he rarely if EVER brings up religion at all. And he is in Texas. He has a lot of patients that are religious (lots of old folks) and will occasionally bring that stuff up. He encourages them to embrace their faith, but he doesn't pray with them, or talk about gods message or anything else. He certainly never brings it up by itself. It's beyond the bounds of a 22 year old coming in for a school physical. There's a difference b/w making small talk about school and plans for the summer and preaching the word of the gospel. When I was working in his office, one of these religious kooks (a patient) came in and started to ask me a bunch of personal questions about being married (I'm not) and my relationship with Jesus. She just assumed (somehow) that I was into this discussion. I have never been so offended in whole life. My dad said "of, she's just one of the nuts, don't listen to her".

And, slightly off topic, why is that only you Christians (esp. born agains) are so goddamned insistent about talking about jesus? Why can't you just go to church and leave well enough alone? Do you honestly think I'm going to hear gods word from some self righteous ***** like you? As its been said, religion is the panacea of the masses, and not everyone is buying it. I have good friends who are Orthodox jews, muslims, and mormons. Not ONE of them EVER has tried to talk up their religion to me (and they are all devout). We talk about religion in oblique terms, as a matter of interest, not conversion. I respect the fact that the LDS guys go on a 2 year mission and do their converting there. Once they get back, they mostly leave it alone. if the message is so beautiful, you really don't think we're going to find it on our own?

lastly, making a parallel between Big Macs and being in a vulnerable state to preach gods word (how very oppurtunist!) is absurd at best. Despite your feelings, god is not a proven entity. Heart disease is.

 

[12R34Y]

My dad has been an internist for 30 years and is also a practicing Catholic (which doesn't have the same zealotry that some other Christian religions do) and yet he rarely if EVER brings up religion at all. And he is in Texas. He has a lot of patients that are religious (lots of old folks) and will occasionally bring that stuff up. He encourages them to embrace their faith, but he doesn't pray with them, or talk about gods message or anything else. He certainly never brings it up by itself. It's beyond the bounds of a 22 year old coming in for a school physical. There's a difference b/w making small talk about school and plans for the summer and preaching the word of the gospel. When I was working in his office, one of these religious kooks (a patient) came in and started to ask me a bunch of personal questions about being married (I'm not) and my relationship with Jesus. She just assumed (somehow) that I was into this discussion. I have never been so offended in whole life. My dad said "of, she's just one of the nuts, don't listen to her".

And, slightly off topic, why is that only you Christians (esp. born agains) are so goddamned insistent about talking about jesus? Why can't you just go to church and leave well enough alone? Do you honestly think I'm going to hear gods word from some self righteous ***** like you? As its been said, religion is the panacea of the masses, and not everyone is buying it. I have good friends who are Orthodox jews, muslims, and mormons. Not ONE of them EVER has tried to talk up their religion to me (and they are all devout). We talk about religion in oblique terms, as a matter of interest, not conversion. I respect the fact that the LDS guys go on a 2 year mission and do their converting there. Once they get back, they mostly leave it alone. if the message is so beautiful, you really don't think we're going to find it on our own?

lastly, making a parallel between Big Macs and being in a vulnerable state to preach gods word (how very oppurtunist!) is absurd at best. Despite your feelings, god is not a proven entity. Heart disease is.

and that is your dad's choice or purogative to talk about whatever he deems fit. Your dad could also have chosen to talk about faith and religion more over the past 30 years like many doctors do.

So what's your point? your dad doesn't do that. lots do....lots don't.

later

 

[mfrederi]

My dad has been an internist for 30 years and is also a practicing Catholic (which doesn't have the same zealotry that some other Christian religions do) and yet he rarely if EVER brings up religion at all. And he is in Texas. He has a lot of patients that are religious (lots of old folks) and will occasionally bring that stuff up. He encourages them to embrace their faith, but he doesn't pray with them, or talk about gods message or anything else. He certainly never brings it up by itself. It's beyond the bounds of a 22 year old coming in for a school physical. There's a difference b/w making small talk about school and plans for the summer and preaching the word of the gospel. When I was working in his office, one of these religious kooks (a patient) came in and started to ask me a bunch of personal questions about being married (I'm not) and my relationship with Jesus. She just assumed (somehow) that I was into this discussion. I have never been so offended in whole life. My dad said "of, she's just one of the nuts, don't listen to her".

And, slightly off topic, why is that only you Christians (esp. born agains) are so goddamned insistent about talking about jesus? Why can't you just go to church and leave well enough alone? Do you honestly think I'm going to hear gods word from some self righteous ***** like you? As its been said, religion is the panacea of the masses, and not everyone is buying it. I have good friends who are Orthodox jews, muslims, and mormons. Not ONE of them EVER has tried to talk up their religion to me (and they are all devout). We talk about religion in oblique terms, as a matter of interest, not conversion. I respect the fact that the LDS guys go on a 2 year mission and do their converting there. Once they get back, they mostly leave it alone. if the message is so beautiful, you really don't think we're going to find it on our own?

lastly, making a parallel between Big Macs and being in a vulnerable state to preach gods word (how very oppurtunist!) is absurd at best. Despite your feelings, god is not a proven entity. Heart disease is.

If you so choose, read Matthew 28:19-20, I think you will then understand where however irrational to you, our motivation lies. The point has been made many times that people who want to find God will eventually find him whether or not we talk to them about Christ. I promise you that this is not true. Many people have concerns about their spirituality and are seeking something more, however have no idea how to find it. For every one person that I address faith with and they come to know Christ, it is worth all the trouble I go through. To you, it seems annoying and frustrating, but imagine if you were the one person that has their life totally changed. I have seen it many times that a person's life is radically altered because they were shown the message of Christ, and it resonated deeply to them. Even though you personally have choosen not to follow Christ's path, surely you must at least recognize that for those that do (and you mention you know many with some type of faith) choose to have faith it can be a very positive experience in their life that brings them great peace and comfort. Is a little annoyance on your part worth it? Surely you wouldn't deny others the oppurtunity to experience something incredibly positive and life (and eternity) changing on the grounds of inconvenience to yourself?

 

[Smooth Operater]

<-- living testment. No one told me about the real Jesus from the bible until I went to university. I used to think Christians are crazy crook who lost touch with the reality. If it wasn't for that person who share the gospel with me, I think I would still be addicted to my sins. whether you agree or not, sharing the love of Christ by words and actions is one of sole purposes that we live. It's even more important than being a physician. Although I am pursuing dentistry, I am going share the gospel whenever there's an oppotunity when my patients visit my practice. Of course, I won't start preaching about the gospel right now. I would be very careful not to offend the other person or make him/her uncomfortable.

 

[12R34Y]

<-- living testment. No one told me about the real Jesus from the bible until I went to university. I used to think Christians are crazy crook who lost touch with the reality. If it wasn't for that person who share the gospel with me, I think I would still be addicted to my sins. whether you agree or not, sharing the love of Christ by words and actions is one of sole purposes that we live. It's even more important than being a physician. Although I am pursuing dentistry, I am going share the gospel whenever there's an oppotunity when my patients visit my practice. Of course, I won't start preaching about the gospel right now. I would be very careful not to offend the other person or make him/her uncomfortable.

I couldn't have said it better. I also became a christian in college. I used to think chrisitians were total nutjobs as well. very much agree about not making anyone uncomfortable.

later

 

[joselind]

what about the tolerance issue that hasn't been yet been addressed by any of the respondents? the fundamentalist christian teaches about living a life of tolerance and goodness, but then (as was addressed in a previous post) is not in any way tolerant of any other religion whatsoever. what gives? there seems to be a disconnect here. as a catholic, i often feel lumped into the group (atheist, muslim, etc) whom fundamentalist christians believe are headed straight to hell. why the tolerance double standard?

 

[mfrederi]

Hopefully all Christians understand that irrespective of a person's personal beliefs everybody (and I mean absolutely everybody) is loved by God. This is fundamental to the understanding of salvation IMO. God sent his son to die for us, before we accepted Him. In that same vein we must absolutely love others, if we are to be like Christ. I hope all my brothers and sisters approach ministry from the understanding that, as lnhoang put it, we are just beggers showing other beggers where the food is.

 

[fang]

Hopefully all Christians understand that irrespective of a person's personal beliefs everybody (and I mean absolutely everybody) is loved by God. This is fundamental to the understanding of salvation IMO. God sent his son to die for us, before we accepted Him. In that same vein we must absolutely love others, if we are to be like Christ. I hope all my brothers and sisters approach ministry from the understanding that, as lnhoang put it, we are just beggers showing other beggers where the food is.

<sigh> Is this the kind of thing you're going to start talking to your patients about when they come in and want a wart removed?

No one has specifically addressed the idea yet that by using time in a doctor's visit to proselytize, you're exploiting the doctor-patient relationship. Your zeal and motivation are not offensive by themselves, but the fact that you think it's OK to push them on someone else in a vulnerable position to you is actually highly offensive and inappropriate.

If you think the most important thing you can do for someone is to show them the way to Christ, why don't you become a pastor? (That's a serious question.)

 

[kenshinoro2004]

Let me see if I can summarize the debates here:

What non-Christians don’t seem to understand is that Christians believe they have found the only true path to salvation. Salvation- essentially eternal harmony and bliss, anything you want, reunited with loved ones- basically your view of paradise (whatever that may be). Who does not want this?? Probably very few, in their right minds ( and Im not talking about people who are “full of hate, hate themselves, hate life" etc.) And the path is so simple, right? The most wonderful thing any Christian could do is to share this “true” belief with another so you can achieve this same great happiness/reward with them. They are doing you a great favor out of the generosity of their heart, trying to give you a great gift - and I think they fully and humbly believe this (correct me if Im wrong). If you don’t want to hear it, then basically you just don’t “understand” yet. Essentially is a duty, a responsibility, of Christians to share their word. So all they can do is continually share their views until, perhaps one day, you do understand the incredible power of this faith.


What many Christians don’t seem to understand is that some people cannot accept many aspects of Christianity – they have explored, it does not inspire their faith. Are they doomed to hell because of this?? Such that there would actually exist “one true religion” is almost a contradiction in itself. Have not Muslims and Buddhists found their absolute truths? What makes the Christain bible the word of God? Do not other books, equally reputable, claim similar things? Is it not the word of God because man (your parents, preachers etc.) only say it is? Did God come down and tell you Himself? Why didn’t he tell me? I would believe Him. I don’t mean that mockingly, just that ( and everyone will have a different opinion on this) the origins of the Bible are not concrete to many people. Same goes for the Talmud, Koran - and many other great religious books (you name it really). What about all the Gospels that were not included in today’s bible? What about all the councils held in the early days of Christianity that weeded out certain aspects and emphasized others?? (See Council of Nicaea in 325 AD) Yes there are many different opinions on this - No need to try and answer these questions or debate me on the facts (I readily admit don’t know them nor will I accept that anyone living truly does). Christian references will say one thing and others will say another thing. But my point is what Christians can’t seem to get is that “because the bible tells me so” just isn’t good enough. To many the bible seems as man made a concoction as the DaVinci Code.

Or that a perfect God is petty enough to allow only those who believe a certain way to reap certain rewards or that he would allow such an illogical concept as “Hell” to exist to punish people who just didn’t get it in life. Why should He care- He is God, He gave us free will (and might I add it is NOT free will if you MUST believe certain ways or suffer the consequences) - He would not punish us for this gift. Would you really argue that Mahatma Gandhi or the countless number of Muslim/Hindu/Agnostic philanthropists (or just good people in general) who have lived throughout the ages with no exposure to Christianity are in an absurd place such as hell? Please. These are powerful enough convictions for “non-believers” that I don’t think Christians have enough weapons in their arsenal to overcome.

I have had conversations with Christians and it is equally frustrating for "non-believers" to talk with them. It is not a two way conversation in terms of being open-minded. Christians have their beliefs that they wish to share with you, but are in no way, shape, or form open to the idea that there are countless other truths to consider. I think this angers many people (See: SDN “Faith and Medicine” post), not the fact that they themselves are forced to consider other possibilities or something other than their own personal truths, just that their Christian counter parts are in no way open to doing the same.

I know there are many Christians out there who do want to be open minded, but ask yourself really- is there anything that could be said that would shake you of your faith? Probably not (which, of course, makes you a good Christian) and Im certainly not here to do so, but only keep this aspect in mind when you accuse a non-Christian of being frustrated, offended or angry with your views.

Ok... to address a couple things..

First of all, despite what many "christian" Pastors may emphasize, salvation is first and foremost being able to be in the presence of the Holy omnipotent God. In our current state, we cannot. Imagine a match in the dark, if you strike the match, it makes light where there was darkness, within the reach of the light, there no longer is darkness, because darkness and light cannot co-exist. In the same way, if we are all dirty from our sin, God who loves us cannot simply ignore that and say its ok, we are nonetheless dirty, He is holy...if we are to be in His presence, its us who have to change, not God.

How to change? Well, we can try real hard to "be better people", but in the end, we still won't be perfect. Its like saying, 99.9% of my body does not have HIV... well...it only takes that .1% to make you sick, and sooner or later it will kill you. (not a perfect analogy, but just to make the point). So, when God lays out the terms of how to be Holy, and its not from what we can do, we can either reject his way, or accept it. Someone has to pay for the offense. Here's an illustration: You murder someone. If the judge just let you go, he would be an unrighteous judge, and would not be upholding his position, and actually would be thus legally complicit in the crime. Someone has to pay...but what if the judge says he will take your place.

Christians believe that the way is to admit that you are a sinner, and ask Jesus (the son of God who took human form roughly 2000 years ago in Israel for 33 years) to take your place, by having died on the cross, and for God to see Jesus blood shed in place of yours as paying the price, and for Jesus to from that point on be your Lord and Savior (not just a one time Savior who you have no relationship with after). If God just forgave you, without a payment of the sin, it would be like God being an unrighteous judge, and just ignoring it..He cannot do that and be Holy... but He does love all men, and thus sent His son as an attoning sacrifice, to be able to pay the debt of sin that none of us are able to. It is pride to think that anything you can do in this life can somehow "balance out" the wrong things (sins) that you have done... we all sin, and even one sin makes us no longer holy...

Salvation is being able to be with the Holy God of the universe for eternity...its not first and foremost about seeing old friends, and not having pain and sadness anymore... although those things will also be true..but they are not the point. Heaven without God would not be heaven...God is what makes heaven heaven....

And no..there is nothing that anyone can say to me that would change my mind, so I guess I am not open minded (if I was it would mean that although I say I believe, I do not really). I was not always a Christian..I actually hated them...but thanks to a coach in college, I saw that what I was offended at in christianity about was not even christianity, and I had never even heard an accurate telling of what it means to be a Christian (the gospel). Why would I go back to that life now though, which I left in college...that would be like a dog going back to eat its own feces...disgusting.

I'm not here to argue, and you may have fun flaming me if you like. But give what I said a thought tonight as you lay down to sleep.

 

[Barry Otter]

A question for the several Christians on this thread who deem it their duty to fully incorporate their belief into their practice: how would you feel about muslim physicians who were no less fervent in their religious beliefs than you and no less eager to share their faith with their patients? If you were a patient under such a physician, would you welcome this practice?

Furthermore, I personally believe that we as physicians (or ones in training) are beholden to our patients to do our very best for their well-being, but to do so in an evidence-based fashion. And therein is the glory and the problem with faith -- it allows one to sense the transcendent, but it's not, well, evidence-based. That's why it's faith, because the individual must make that leap, to badly mangle Kierkegaard. For example, I may believe in my heart of hearts (as some of you do with regard to Christ) that buk-kake is good for the mind, soul and spirit, but without evidence, I would be remiss in ushering my asthmatic patients to their nearby buk-kake circles, no? As a slightly (but onlys slightly) less ludicrous example, let's suppose that I believe with every pore of my being that the salvation to all of mankind's problems lies in reading the poetry of Ezra Pound. Should I preach the salvific gospel according to Pound to my patients? You can see where I'm going with this.

 

[Elysium]

I suppose this whole discussion is just totally absurd anyway, since the Christian kooks are never going to change their minds, no matter how inappropriate their actions are. I really sincerely hope you guys start preaching to a devout athetist and you get slapped with a malpractice lawsuit. Maybe then you'll realize how incredibly rude, sanctimonious, and offensive your behavior is. When I hear/read your Christian rantings all I hear is "salvation blah blah blah christs teachings blah blah jesus blah blah" it's like in one ear and out the other. This line of conversation actually works on people? I find that hilarious.

I can't imagine you all would be excited if you had an Orthodox Jewish doctor who preached the word of the Torah or strict Muslims that went on and on about their beliefs. Or what about the LDS guys who believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet on the order of Jesus and all men can achieve a god like state? What if every time you came into the office they brought this up, with the supposed good intention of "saving" you. You people don't have the market cornered on being "saved". Millions of other religious groups think they have the answer too. Only one answer is right, after all. Your way is not the only way, and I urge you to have just a bit of respect for other people's faith or lack thereof.

 

[lnhoang]

A question for the several Christians on this thread who deem it their duty to fully incorporate their belief into their practice: how would you feel about muslim physicians who were no less fervent in their religious beliefs than you and no less eager to share their faith with their patients? If you were a patient under such a physician, would you welcome this practice?

Furthermore, I personally believe that we as physicians (or ones in training) are beholden to our patients to do our very best for their well-being, but to do so in an evidence-based fashion. And therein is the glory and the problem with faith -- it allows one to sense the transcendent, but it's not, well, evidence-based. That's why it's faith, because the individual must make that leap, to badly mangle Kierkegaard. For example, I may believe in my heart of hearts (as some of you do with regard to Christ) that buk-kake is good for the mind, soul and spirit, but without evidence, I would be remiss in ushering my asthmatic patients to their nearby buk-kake circles, no? As a slightly (but onlys slightly) less ludicrous example, let's suppose that I believe with every pore of my being that the salvation to all of mankind's problems lies in reading the poetry of Ezra Pound. Should I preach the salvific gospel according to Pound to my patients? You can see where I'm going with this.

You choose to do that...that's up to you. I would not be offended if a Muslim shared his/her faith w/ me.....it definitely opens the door for me to share Christianity.

An absolute truth exists....you seem to be content w/ relativism, yet you try to intellectually debate against truth. Think about what you're doing!

If you are so against an individual to share the matters of someone's faith and truth (the most important aspect of their life), I guess you believe we should all relate to each other in a shallow manner. If this is how you relate to people, I'm sorry to hear that.

Healing the physical body is temporal (we all will die someday....nothing can change that), but the Message of the Cross is eternal! Money, treasures, awards, and acknowledgements will not save you or come with you after you check out! Think about these things.....

Grace and Peace,
LH

 

[lnhoang]

I suppose this whole discussion is just totally absurd anyway, since the Christian kooks are never going to change their minds, no matter how inappropriate their actions are. I really sincerely hope you guys start preaching to a devout athetist and you get slapped with a malpractice lawsuit. Maybe then you'll realize how incredibly rude, sanctimonious, and offensive your behavior is. When I hear/read your Christian rantings all I hear is "salvation blah blah blah christs teachings blah blah jesus blah blah" it's like in one ear and out the other. This line of conversation actually works on people? I find that hilarious.

I can't imagine you all would be excited if you had an Orthodox Jewish doctor who preached the word of the Torah or strict Muslims that went on and on about their beliefs. Or what about the LDS guys who believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet on the order of Jesus and all men can achieve a god like state? What if every time you came into the office they brought this up, with the supposed good intention of "saving" you. You people don't have the market cornered on being "saved". Millions of other religious groups think they have the answer too. Only one answer is right, after all. Your way is not the only way, and I urge you to have just a bit of respect for other people's faith or lack thereof.

Please read up on the legal basis of a malpractice lawsuit.....

Also, ya'll seem to think we Christians will be offended if someone of different religion shared their faith to us. That is not the case. I respect everyone of all backgrounds, but you have to realize that we are not sharing out of disrespect, but love and concern for our fellow man/woman.

I have friends that are agnostic (no such thing as atheists), Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist to which I have presented them w/ the Christ message in the same manner as I have presented to you (look at previous posts). They may not agree or accept the Message as truth (yet), but we are still friends that study, have clinical experiences, play basketball, and eat dinner together. I continue to pray for their salvation. Just another perspective,

LH

 

[fang]

You choose to do that...that's up to you. I would not be offended if a Muslim shared his/her faith w/ me.....it definitely opens the door for me to share Christianity.

An absolute truth exists....you seem to be content w/ relativism, yet you try to intellectually debate against truth. Think about what you're doing!

If you are so against an individual to share the matters of someone's faith and truth (the most important aspect of their life), I guess you believe we should all relate to each other in a shallow manner. If this is how you relate to people, I'm sorry to hear that.

Healing the physical body is temporal (we all will die someday....nothing can change that), but the Message of the Cross is eternal! Money, treasures, awards, and acknowledgements will not save you or come with you after you check out! Think about these things.....

Grace and Peace,
LH

We're arguing about 2 different things here.

No one is challenging your right to believe in your chosen religion and share your thoughts and feelings about that faith IN THE APPROPRIATE SETTING. It becomes offensive when you do it to your patients.

Can't you have a meaningful (non-shallow) conversation without God or Jesus involved?

 

[ndi_amaka]

Interesting debate. I have a question...someone mentioned that if they were a sick patient and their doctor started evangeizing to them, that they would take the doctor to court.

I'm no expert on law...so I'd like to know on what grounds could someone be sued for evangelizing or was this just said out of haste?

 

[Code Brown]

For all you christians. What's up with creationism? I mean, can you honestly (and logically) say that evolution does not work? Are mutations a figment of our imagination? Doesn't that just mean that new antibiotic strains of bacteria don't really exist?

 

[Elysium]

Interesting debate. I have a question...someone mentioned that if they were a sick patient and their doctor started evangeizing to them, that they would take the doctor to court.

I'm no expert on law...so I'd like to know on what grounds could someone be sued for evangelizing or was this just said out of haste?

I bet you one of those cats over there at the ACLU would be able to come up with a case. If you think of all the frivilous lawsuits that are brought against docs, I think preaching/offending your patients could be grounds. As I have no knowledge of law, I'm just guessing. But I bet somebody like Alan Dershowitz could do it.

As I recall, there was that lawsuit in CA about the father who refused to let his daughter say the pledge of allegiance because they were aethists. If that went to court...

Point is, there is absolutely a time and a place for religion. And treating someone's yeast infection is not the time to start babbling on about salvation.

 

[mfrederi]

<sigh> Is this the kind of thing you're going to start talking to your patients about when they come in and want a wart removed?

No one has specifically addressed the idea yet that by using time in a doctor's visit to proselytize, you're exploiting the doctor-patient relationship. Your zeal and motivation are not offensive by themselves, but the fact that you think it's OK to push them on someone else in a vulnerable position to you is actually highly offensive and inappropriate.

If you think the most important thing you can do for someone is to show them the way to Christ, why don't you become a pastor? (That's a serious question.)

A serious and a fair question. Several people in this thread have suggested that I become a pastor (probably in hopes that I will drop out prior to practice so they don't have to run into me later in life ). But, a pastor is not a professional evangelist, they are a professional pastor- as in shepard. They take a group of believers and minister to their needs, hopefully helping them grow spiritually. While I do respect and appreciate the job, it is not my cup of tea. I don't want to minister to believers all day, I much perfer being around those that don't already know Christ. Secondly, I really enjoy medicine, and it is a very good way to be around people that are contemplating their eternity. There is a reason Jesus healed tons of people, because we all value our health greatly, and participating in the healing of a person is one of the most loving things you can do for them. Last but not least, I felt that this is where God called me to be. A serious question for you: If taken solely on the basis of what I have written during the course of this thread, has any aspect of what I have said about the Gospel been offensive to you?

 

[ZephyrX]

Currently, in my geriatric clinic they spend about 30-45 minutes/patient and they address all of their needs. that includes spiritual. Also, most of the patients on inpatient wards always have a spiritual history taken as well, which discusses their belief system and religion (if they have one) so you know how to better care for them. Not uncommon at all......, but being a premed how would you know this.

later

Maybe it's the fact that i am ESL that i don't get what you are saying here clearly. Or maybe it's because you can't write properly.

30-45 minutes for what? For a new patient? For a follow up? 30-45 with direct patient-physician contact? 30-45 minutes as a follow up seems unusually high. Especially if you mean that the physician is in the exam room for 45 minutes.

The reason why inpatient wards ask for the patients religious backround is not so that you (aka the physician) "know how take better care of them". The religious information (if the patient puts that down) is there to be used by the hospitals chaplaincy services.

It amazes me that people think that there isn't time for this, but i haven't had a rotation where one of the docs is like, "Hey, so how'd that wedding go last month.....or......isn't your son getting ready to graduate blah blah blah." when do you think this information was elicted? on email? it was through discussion during visits.

There is a reason why physicians ask those questions. They want the patient to get more comfortable and relax and to establish a connection. If an internist says "So Billy got into Vassar eh? Congratulations! They grow up so fast don't they?", its because he wants to show some interest in the patient. However had you paid any attention you would notice that they keep those kind of conversations short. And for a good reason, they don't want to become "too familiar" because then they would be losing some of their professional relationship.

That kind of interaction is generic and short. Religious/political discussions don't fall under the category and even if they did, these kind of discussions take time. A doctor does not have the time to start debating political stuff or exchanging opinions on his religion.

If you are in a small town where everyone is Baptist or Mormon or whatever other religion and you say "the sermon last Sunday was great wasn't it?", it's understable that you won't face many problems. However, if your patient base is compromised by many different cultures/religions, even if you had the time to discuss such issues, you would be at risk of alienating some of your patients and having some of them leave you while your professional reputation starts going down the drain because of it.

 

[SocialistMD]

Christians believe that the way is to admit that you are a sinner, and ask Jesus (the son of God who took human form roughly 2000 years ago in Israel for 33 years) to take your place, by having died on the cross, and for God to see Jesus blood shed in place of yours as paying the price, and for Jesus to from that point on be your Lord and Savior (not just a one time Savior who you have no relationship with after). If God just forgave you, without a payment of the sin, it would be like God being an unrighteous judge, and just ignoring it..He cannot do that and be Holy... but He does love all men, and thus sent His son as an attoning sacrifice, to be able to pay the debt of sin that none of us are able to. It is pride to think that anything you can do in this life can somehow "balance out" the wrong things (sins) that you have done... we all sin, and even one sin makes us no longer holy...

Herein lies one of the fundamental problems where many people who do not believe have their issue. You are basically saying that God makes us dirty sinners, yet tells us we must ask for His forgiveness for being this way or else there is no heaven for us. But, there is His son, Jesus, who will accept our sins and we'll be forgiven, provided we live a life with Him.

I've never been one to ask anyone to take the blame for anything I've done (even, in this case, if my sin in God's eyes is being born dirty because that is how He made me). I'll not start now. If I have to go to Hell to bear the burden I was given for being born, I'll do it. The concept is so absurd there isn't even an analogy with which to compare. I guess the closest would be demanding my son to ask me for forgiveness for his not having blue eyes, despite the fact that it is my brown-eye gene that prevented him from having blue eyes in the first place. If your God is so selfish and insecure in His doings to make such an outlandish request, it secures in my mind that it wouldn't be heaven if I had to be there with Him.

This is my problem with Christianity. Its fundamental founding principle is a contradiction; no "perfect being" would ever demand something so conflicted. If it makes you comfortable to say "God works in mysterious ways" or whatever the catch phrase of the day might be, do it, but don't try it with me. There may be a creator and his name may be "God," but he isn't the God the Christians describe; you weaken any maker by claiming what you claim.

If there is a creator and if s/he has a place for us after this life, it will be based on our deeds and not our worship of him/her. Any superior being powerful enough to make the universe is so far above us to bother caring what we think of him. That is a weak, human trait, not one of a deity, and if it is a trait that s/he possesses, then you are all barking up the wrong tree, because it is more of a trait that you ascribe to Satan than God.

 

[Barry Otter]

No one has addressed my buk-kake question. Is it appropriate for a physician to push people into the practice of buk-kake if he sincerely believes it to be spiritually and bodily beneficial, but lacks evidence for its benefits?

 

[SocialistMD]

No one has addressed my buk-kake question. Is it appropriate for a physician to push people into the practice of buk-kake if he sincerely believes it to be spiritually and bodily beneficial, but lacks evidence for its benefits?

I bet many people here don't know the practice of buk-kake as they probably don't frequent the same internet sites as you (particularly the devout Christians, those you address), and thus can't make a comment on it. Let it rest.

 

[BCF81]

Ok... to address a couple things..

First of all, despite what many "christian" Pastors may emphasize, salvation is first and foremost being able to be in the presence of the Holy omnipotent God. In our current state, we cannot. Imagine a match in the dark, if you strike the match, it makes light where there was darkness, within the reach of the light, there no longer is darkness, because darkness and light cannot co-exist. In the same way, if we are all dirty from our sin, God who loves us cannot simply ignore that and say its ok, we are nonetheless dirty, He is holy...if we are to be in His presence, its us who have to change, not God.

How to change? Well, we can try real hard to "be better people", but in the end, we still won't be perfect. Its like saying, 99.9% of my body does not have HIV... well...it only takes that .1% to make you sick, and sooner or later it will kill you. (not a perfect analogy, but just to make the point). So, when God lays out the terms of how to be Holy, and its not from what we can do, we can either reject his way, or accept it. Someone has to pay for the offense. Here's an illustration: You murder someone. If the judge just let you go, he would be an unrighteous judge, and would not be upholding his position, and actually would be thus legally complicit in the crime. Someone has to pay...but what if the judge says he will take your place.

Christians believe that the way is to admit that you are a sinner, and ask Jesus (the son of God who took human form roughly 2000 years ago in Israel for 33 years) to take your place, by having died on the cross, and for God to see Jesus blood shed in place of yours as paying the price, and for Jesus to from that point on be your Lord and Savior (not just a one time Savior who you have no relationship with after). If God just forgave you, without a payment of the sin, it would be like God being an unrighteous judge, and just ignoring it..He cannot do that and be Holy... but He does love all men, and thus sent His son as an attoning sacrifice, to be able to pay the debt of sin that none of us are able to. It is pride to think that anything you can do in this life can somehow "balance out" the wrong things (sins) that you have done... we all sin, and even one sin makes us no longer holy...

Salvation is being able to be with the Holy God of the universe for eternity...its not first and foremost about seeing old friends, and not having pain and sadness anymore... although those things will also be true..but they are not the point. Heaven without God would not be heaven...God is what makes heaven heaven....

And no..there is nothing that anyone can say to me that would change my mind, so I guess I am not open minded (if I was it would mean that although I say I believe, I do not really). I was not always a Christian..I actually hated them...but thanks to a coach in college, I saw that what I was offended at in christianity about was not even christianity, and I had never even heard an accurate telling of what it means to be a Christian (the gospel). Why would I go back to that life now though, which I left in college...that would be like a dog going back to eat its own feces...disgusting.

I'm not here to argue, and you may have fun flaming me if you like. But give what I said a thought tonight as you lay down to sleep.

I appreciate your point of view but I fail to see the point of your thread. I understand what you are saying and I understand Christian teachings, but it is nothing more than continued Christian dogma (e.g. “sin” and “His way”)- which was my original point….it’s just not something just anybody can or will accept. It does not resonate as truth or as God’s way. I believe there are truths in Christianity, just not the truth. You just make it seem like there is something seriously wrong with you if you don’t accept this, which you do realize the majority of Earth’s population falls into. And I just don’t buy that for a second. It’s continued Christian contradictions

I am not saying Christians should ever go back to the way they were before they were born again, or whatever, just that there are greater and more universal truths out there then just what comes out of the Bible. Christians aren’t willing to accept this ( and I guess aren’t even allowed to if they’re to be a good Christian) and therefore seem spiritually stagnant and closed minded- which is what they accuse non-Christians of bring in the first place!

Good post earlier SocialistMD- definitely reiterates what I was trying to say in a previous post. There’s nothing wrong with being a Christian. I honestly don’t think it should matter in the end. And I think in modern times more good comes out of Christianity than not. But it’s not absolute truth and it’s not for everybody. And if it’s not for you, you will not be punished.

Fear will no longer be used as a tool with which to convince people, which Christian philosophy is based on (ie – do you fear for your soul??). People will not accept this in modern times – it is medieval almost –used in those times because fear was the simplest way to control the masses and therefore gain power (The Vatican is awfully rich and powerful you know- all in “God’s name” of course). An all powerful omnipotent God has no need to have people behave in a certain way. This is petty. Sure we aren’t perfect, nor will we ever be here on Earth- but don’t you think God understands this? And that there would be only one (highly suspect) way of achieving perfection?? Come on! SocialistMD’s point is dead-on. “no "perfect being" would ever demand something so conflicted”. It’s illogical and therefore cannot be the absolute law of God, or therefore He is imperfect.

Maybe, as society progresses Christians could evolve to newer and higher thinking based on logic and understanding of the truths that actually are within Christianity and filtering out all the man made crap that it’s acquired in the last 2000 years. Medicine has evolved, philosophy has evolved, society itself has certainly evolved – it’s not so difficult to imagine for Religion, despite it’s long held traditions. I know it’s a difficult thing to accept that many things that give you great comfort are perhaps totally false, man-made (and therefore ultimately illogical), but it’s long overdue.

Sorry to make this such a theological debate and continue to bring the thread off topic, but I feel like Christians may be in need of a healthy dose of their own medicine (no pun intended).

Simple answer for “faith in medicine” has already been said- if the patient brings up the topic, great - discuss, share, pray with the patient if that’s what you both want- But do not preach or set out to “help” someone with their beliefs!! It is not the physician’s place! Ever! A friend, a mentor, yes, perhaps it is their place. If after a long relationship with a patient you can become more one of those figures than a physician, then perhaps sharing more in depth is warranted. Unfortunately that’s a very fine line and everyone will interpret it differently- hence the conflict continues.

 

[ndi_amaka]

I bet you one of those cats over there at the ACLU would be able to come up with a case. If you think of all the frivilous lawsuits that are brought against docs, I think preaching/offending your patients could be grounds. As I have no knowledge of law, I'm just guessing. But I bet somebody like Alan Dershowitz could do it.

As I recall, there was that lawsuit in CA about the father who refused to let his daughter say the pledge of allegiance because they were aethists. If that went to court...

Point is, there is absolutely a time and a place for religion. And treating someone's yeast infection is not the time to start babbling on about salvation.

The father was suing a PUBLIC school (his tax money goes to it). What law is a private practice physician breaking by evangelizing?

 

[Elysium]

The father was suing a PUBLIC school (his tax money goes to it). What law is a private practice physician breaking by evangelizing?

Someone tried to sue McDonalds for making them fat. Are you trying to tell me that a halfway decent lawyer couldn't come up with a reason why doctors enforcing their religious views on them is a violation of their civil rights.

 

[ndi_amaka]

Someone tried to sue McDonalds for making them fat.

'Nuff said. I forgot this was America.

 

[phil413ru]

This is a very interesting discussion going on here and I can see the point of both sides--both sides have valid arguements. Here is my take on issue of faith on medicine and practice--I actually had to write a paper on this for my ethics class.

Spirituality is a part of medicine. You cannot deny this aspect. It is not always blatent--if a patent comes to you with diarrhea, this does not mean you will necessary be addressing spiritual aspects. But a patient is not just an organism, but as a person, the body soul and spirit intertwine. I cannot give you percentages, but most patients who walk into the doctors office believe in something. Faith and religion are important to a large majority of patients. Ask a patient who is struggling with disease, full of questions. Often questions of spirituality come up. The question comes then, what is our role?
This is why I believe it is good to be knowledgeable at least of the three majore world religions (Christianity, Judiaism, Islam) but ask patients if this is an important factor in their life. (Obviously a time and place for everything. LISTEN to the patients. If they ask me what I believe, I am going to tell them--if you aren't comftable, then that is okay. But the main thing is the care of the patient. By sweeping spirituality in the corner and saying that is the care of clergymen and pastors is doing patients a disservice.

What do I personally believe? I will be extremely careful while in the office (due to the influence of the white coat) of sharing my faith because I want the patient making decision about faith based on how God is leading them, not because this is "what the doctor ordered." I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, I may be considered "narrow-minded" by believing that Christ is the only way, but I would not in good concious say this to my patients in my office. Yes, I do believe that one must believe in Christ to be saved, but I also believe that ONLY God can save hearts, and that it is not up to me or to my efforts to save the soul of the patients. At that time, God has sent those patients to me to help with those physical needs while He continues to work on their hearts. Yes, I do feel like an "odd duck" in the practice of medicine. Sometimes I feel like the Apostle Paul in Athens. I see people, and patients (in medical school) who are so worried and depressed that I wish I could share with them, but I don't, because it is not time. I look around me in this world and I want to tell everyone I see about the good news that saved me, but I have to depend on the God's timing--if His timing is not right, instead of encouraging someone in Christ, I drive them away.

Faith and Medicine is not an oxymoron. Is it part of who I am. I don't push it on my patients, because is it not up to me.to save them, but to God. I pray for them. They will never know this, but I pray for everyone of them. My view of spirituality of medicine is to see the face of Christ in every patient and treat them as kind and good as I would treat Christ. To listen, and care as I would treat Christ. To, if they ask, or if spirituality seems to play a big part of their life, then I can bring it up, but then let them lead the discussion.

I hope this helps, but I also know this will ruffle a few feathers.

Thank goodness this is America!

 

[LAZYGUY]

Someone tried to sue McDonalds for making them fat. Are you trying to tell me that a halfway decent lawyer couldn't come up with a reason why doctors enforcing their religious views on them is a violation of their civil rights.

If you think you can sue for religious reasons, think again. This is the problem with Lawyers, they have a unhumane sense of entitlement. Fortunately the law is against you.

A legal malpractice plaintiff is required to demonstrate duty, breach, causation and harm, and that the injury was proximately caused by the breach of duty.[1]In many instances, malpractice complaints assert that the breach of applicable ethical codes is the equivalent of malpractice or that these codes define a lawyer's standard of care.

Courts are not very accepting of this argument, and generally rule that a mere ethical breach itself is not malpractice. As New York State's top court, the Court of Appeals, recently held, "an ethical violation will not, in and of itself, create a duty that gives rise to a cause of action that would otherwise not exist at law."[2]This reflects the view that the Code of Professional Responsibility and the Model Rules are aspirational guides that can serve as a basis for disciplinary action -- and that they specifically state that they do "not undertake to define standards for civil liability of lawyers for professional conduct."[3

[2] Shapiro v. McNeill, 92 N.Y.2d 91 (1998).

http://www.rivkinradler.com/rivkinradler/Publications/newformat/200302digennaro.shtml

 

[Elysium]

If you think you can sue for religious reasons, think again. This is the problem with Lawyers, they have a unhumane sense of entitlement. Fortunately the law is against you.

A legal malpractice plaintiff is required to demonstrate duty, breach, causation and harm, and that the injury was proximately caused by the breach of duty.[1]In many instances, malpractice complaints assert that the breach of applicable ethical codes is the equivalent of malpractice or that these codes define a lawyer's standard of care.

Courts are not very accepting of this argument, and generally rule that a mere ethical breach itself is not malpractice. As New York State's top court, the Court of Appeals, recently held, "an ethical violation will not, in and of itself, create a duty that gives rise to a cause of action that would otherwise not exist at law."[2]This reflects the view that the Code of Professional Responsibility and the Model Rules are aspirational guides that can serve as a basis for disciplinary action -- and that they specifically state that they do "not undertake to define standards for civil liability of lawyers for professional conduct."[3

[2] Shapiro v. McNeill, 92 N.Y.2d 91 (1998).

http://www.rivkinradler.com/rivkinradler/Publications/newformat/200302digennaro.shtml

Dude, I'm not a lawyer so get off my ass. I just don't want my FP yammering on about Jesus when I'm in for a UTI. I think it's the most unprofessional thing I can imagine. I still bet the ALCU + Dershowitz could turn over the decision from the NY supreme court, but that's just conjecture.

 

[Geronimo]

This is a very interesting discussion going on here and I can see the point of both sides--both sides have valid arguements. Here is my take on issue of faith on medicine and practice--I actually had to write a paper on this for my ethics class.

Spirituality is a part of medicine. You cannot deny this aspect. It is not always blatent--if a patent comes to you with diarrhea, this does not mean you will necessary be addressing spiritual aspects. But a patient is not just an organism, but as a person, the body soul and spirit intertwine. I cannot give you percentages, but most patients who walk into the doctors office believe in something. Faith and religion are important to a large majority of patients. Ask a patient who is struggling with disease, full of questions. Often questions of spirituality come up. The question comes then, what is our role?
This is why I believe it is good to be knowledgeable at least of the three majore world religions (Christianity, Judiaism, Islam) but ask patients if this is an important factor in their life. (Obviously a time and place for everything. LISTEN to the patients. If they ask me what I believe, I am going to tell them--if you aren't comftable, then that is okay. But the main thing is the care of the patient. By sweeping spirituality in the corner and saying that is the care of clergymen and pastors is doing patients a disservice.

What do I personally believe? I will be extremely careful while in the office (due to the influence of the white coat) of sharing my faith because I want the patient making decision about faith based on how God is leading them, not because this is "what the doctor ordered." I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, I may be considered "narrow-minded" by believing that Christ is the only way, but I would not in good concious say this to my patients in my office. Yes, I do believe that one must believe in Christ to be saved, but I also believe that ONLY God can save hearts, and that it is not up to me or to my efforts to save the soul of the patients. At that time, God has sent those patients to me to help with those physical needs while He continues to work on their hearts. Yes, I do feel like an "odd duck" in the practice of medicine. Sometimes I feel like the Apostle Paul in Athens. I see people, and patients (in medical school) who are so worried and depressed that I wish I could share with them, but I don't, because it is not time. I look around me in this world and I want to tell everyone I see about the good news that saved me, but I have to depend on the God's timing--if His timing is not right, instead of encouraging someone in Christ, I drive them away.

Faith and Medicine is not an oxymoron. Is it part of who I am. I don't push it on my patients, because is it not up to me.to save them, but to God. I pray for them. They will never know this, but I pray for everyone of them. My view of spirituality of medicine is to see the face of Christ in every patient and treat them as kind and good as I would treat Christ. To listen, and care as I would treat Christ. To, if they ask, or if spirituality seems to play a big part of their life, then I can bring it up, but then let them lead the discussion.

I hope this helps, but I also know this will ruffle a few feathers.

Thank goodness this is America!

Awesome! Amen!