Failing a clinical affiliation...what's next?

[darkangel77]

Hi guys,

So, after going through 3 years of PT school and 3 affiliations, I found out (actually, blindsided) that my final affiliation was terminated early, without any warning from my CI that I was ever in danger of failing.

I did well in my classes (bombed 2 midterms ever due to having some family issues going on at the time, but I turned myself around and made the grade up by working extra hard for the final and in class, and those teachers even admitted that they were proud of me), and did great in my previous 3 clinics.

So, fast-forward to my final affil. I got placed in a pediatric school setting, something completely new for me (I had done affiliations in outpatient, a nursing home, and a hospital previously). Although I had difficulty adjusting to the new setting and working with kids for the first two weeks (I had never been around kids much before this), I pushed myself, studied hard, and eventually grew more comfortable and even my CI said she was seeing a huge improvement in me. I also helped her out when she hurt her knee on the 4th day of my clinic, and I took on her entire caseload, despite not feeling quite ready at that time (I wasn't supposed to have taken on her caseload until the end of the 2nd week/start of the 3rd week).

After midterm time, she sent me an email with a glowing review, saying how proud she was of me and how well I was doing. For the next 4 weeks thereafter, she would give me feedback at the end of the day, 90% of which was positive. She always gave me suggestions on how to improve (dealing with groups of kids, giving good directions, making sure they're all doing what they're told), which I always accepted her feedback and applied them ASAP.

She did ask me a lot of questions and threw random case studies at me (mostly when I was treating or doing notes), and I was able to answer most of her questions, but not all. She then took that as an indication that I didn't know my basics.

So she talked to my school, saying that she and my teachers were going to make up a set of goals for me every week so that I can pass my affiliation. The day before I found out I failed, my CI had left me saying "I'll see you Monday, here are some things I want you to read over the weekend", and making plans with me for the coming week regarding treatment plans and such. She also said to me, "I feel as though there are some things you can improve on, and if you can show me that you can improve in the next 4 weeks, then I'll have no problem passing you". To which I had no problem with.

I get a call from my teacher that day, saying the director of the facility called her to terminate my affiliation. Here are the reasons they stated:

1. I wasn't independent --

I feel as though I was, 90% of the time. Roughly once a week on average, my CI would step in to help me out briefly with fixing an exercise or to deal with a kid who was misbehaving and wouldn't listen to me. But after the first 2 weeks it was VERY rare that she co-treated an entire session with me, unless she had something she wanted to try out. Most of the time, when I was treating, my CI wasn't even watching me and she was at her computer, in the same room.

2. I was distracted when she tried to talk to me and I didn't seem like I cared about the kids --

I don't believe this was true. My CI never made any mention to this to me, first of all. Second, I lived and breathed to take care of her kids the best I could, making sure I got as much out of their sessions as possible. I spent 3-5 hours a night making up treatment plans and writing up their progress notes, reading up on their histories, and tailoring treatment plans around what they enjoyed so they would participate. Even the other service providers (OTs, STs) would say they were impressed with my treatments and how they don't see other PTs doing what I was doing. Also, the kids I treated were always happy to see me and couldn't wait to come with me to PT. And, I always tried to go the extra mile for them...if they were unhappy or upset, I'd talk to them for a few minutes or try to comfort them, and I consistently talked to them outside of PT to see how they were doing. There was one time that I remember where I was distracted, but it was at the end of the day, I was exhausted from running around with 20+ kids, and there was a lot going on around me. But I still heard everything she said.

3. I didn't have the basic knowledge (ie goniometry, muscles, gait assessments, MMT) --

Again, I never had to do goni or MMT with the kids, and I tried doing gait assessments as much as possible, and wrote them into their progress notes. I was able to answer most of her questions regarding anatomy, physiology, kinese...although not all. She would also give me case studies randomly, which was fine, but sometimes I have trouble when I get caught off-guard and I fumble and draw a blank, even on the simplest things (I know I'm not the only one that has this problem, so I'm not making excuses). I talked to her about this and she said she understood, that she has the same problem sometimes. On top of that, in my past 2 clinics at a nursing home and outpatient clinic, all I did was goni, MMT, and gait assessments, and both my CIs previously told me I was doing well with those, and none of my previous CIs had said I was lacking basic knowledge, even if I did have to look some things up or refresh my memory via my notes.

Anyway, tomorrow I'm supposed to in for a meeting with my teachers to discuss what happened and what my next step is. I have to repeat this affiliation over the summer. I'm just upset because my CI had never given me any indication that I was in danger of failing, and she was even making plans for me for the next week. Why would she do that if she was planning on failing me? I feel like I was sweating blood and tears to do everything my CI asked me to and give her kids the best treatment possible, and I end up failing. I never did anything to put the kids in danger and always, always showed a willingness to learn and fix my mistakes. I spent so much time on clinic things, with a 2-hour commute on top of things (she also gave me a ton of assignments) that I ended up dropping out of my research project to do an independent assignment, which both my mentor and I agreed would be best for me. Often, I stayed late and worked through my lunch break to get everything done...notes, assignments, progress reports (she wanted her progress reports to be about 4-5 pages long each, and I often had to do 2 a week).

There were times when she seemed like she had a bad day and blew up at me and I could do no right in her eyes, but I took it in stride and kept trucking, and she always apologized later.

What do I say when I'm meeting with the teachers? I feel like it's my word against my CI's, and I don't want to come off as making excuses or sounding whiny. For awhile I was concerned that there was something else going on as when I was unable to answer some of her questions, she was complaining that "I can't believe your school didn't teach you that" or "I had this same problem with someone else from your school", so I thought there was a small chance she had an issue with the school, but I don't know and probably never will. If any of you need any further information, or if something didn't make sense, I'd be happy to clarify.

Thanks in advance for any advice/help you all can give.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[PTisfun]

Speak with the ACCE at your school. This happens (that people fail a rotation). Most schools will let you just make it up with a different rotation. If you really feel like you were treated unfairly, then your school has to have a grade appeal process. Look in your student handbook, and appeal the grade. Having your midterm showing good progress and emails with positive feedback will help with that.

 

[jblil]

OP - please let us know how it turns out. Some of us may one day face the same situation, as we go through our clinicals later on. To me, it sounds like you had an unfair and flaky CI.

Along the same line, a cousin of mine got expelled recently from a PharmD program during his very last clinical rotation. He claimed that he was treated unfairly by his supervisor at the hospital where he was working. Although I am dying to know the details, I didn't want to pry and ask him what happened. It is scary that a wrong move during his very last semester torpedoed 4+ years of schooling.

 

[darkangel77]

PTisFun and jblil, thanks so much for your responses. Jblil, what's your cousin doing now? Do you know if he even got a chance to make up the clinical?

I did go in to speak with my professors today, as well as the dean of health sciences. What I expected to be a small meeting with my teachers turned out to be a full-blown Academic Committee meeting, and I felt like I was going into court.

I'm not sure how it went, to be honest. The dean was being rather nasty to me and so was the director of the PT program, as they challenged almost everything I said, however, there were 3 of my professors there who were trying to back me up. I was honest with them and told them everything that had occurred between my CI and I during clinic. My CI's feedback, though mostly positive, was contradictory at times, and when I began saying what she had said to me, the dean made a comment that I was contradicting myself.

For example, my CI would say "great job!" one day, and then the next she'd say "I don't know if I can pass you, you have some stuff to work on", etc. I showed them the email that she sent me after midterm, and the director of PT asked me to forward it to her. Or she would say "ask me for help if a kid is not behaving" Which I did a few times, and then at the end, my CI told me "you should have been independent. What if I was not there??"

They also delved into my last 3 years and pointed out every mistake I made...including my 2 failed midterms (even though I made up the grade). When I told them how hard I worked during clinic, even at the cost of my research project, taking on my CI's caseload before I was fully ready (with her supervision, of course), the dean asked me "Why did you do that, knowing it was going to affect your other responsibilities? Isn't that bad judgment on your part?" To which I had no answer....I was only trying to help my CI! My research mentor (also my ACCE, just my good fortune) was there and she was apparently upset that I even had to drop out of the project because of clinic.

At the end of the meeting the dean said "To be honest, everything you're telling us is very contradictory" and also asked me why I thought I deserved another shot at clinic. I just said I know I will pass this next time around because I know exactly what I needed to do now. She just said to me "do you really?" And then she had another meeting to attend to so she left. The PT director then said I could leave and said she will get back to me in a few days with their decision.

To be honest, I'm really scared at this point, and I know the waiting is going to kill me. I'm so worried that all the work I've put in during the last 3 years will be for nothing.

 

[jchen707]

darkangel, just a quick question. where do you attend for PT school?

 

[darkangel77]

jchen, I'm not comfortable mentioning the name of the school, but it is in NY. If you want to know I'll send you a PM.

 

[jblil]

Jblil, what's your cousin doing now? Do you know if he even got a chance to make up the clinical?

Well, he gave up on Pharmacy. He did appeal to his school, but was unsuccessful. I asked him if he planned to re-apply (he would have to start from scratch, at a different school if he gets accepted - a huge "if"). He said it'd be too much work, so he gave up. I'm not sure what I'd do if I were in his shoes...
His wife is a dentist, so now he's the office manager for her practice.

 

[NYCPT]

Really, wow. I couldnt imagine giving up after all of that hard work, but I was not in his shoes, so I can't really judge. He did appeal and wasn't sucessful, so I guess he couldn't do anything. Total bummer.

 

[NYCPT]

jchen, I'm not comfortable mentioning the name of the school, but it is in NY. If you want to know I'll send you a PM.

Do you feel that your school is supporting you? Are they to blame somewhat? Do you feel that they successfully prepared you for a pediatric clinical? Or do you feel you were totally bamboozled by your CI? I believe she should have given you a warning about your progress? I think s he was being hard with dismissing you with the information you have provided to us.

What a horror story. How are clinical sites determined at your school?

 

[Azimuthal]

Such a negative experience! I would hope that any dean or program director would be more supportive. After all, you are a product of their program...

 

[angl88]

Such a negative experience! I would hope that any dean or program director would be more supportive. After all, you are a product of their program...

I totally agree .It seems so unfair for this to have happened in this way and for the school to not seems so willing to intervene. I wonder why /if they could have had another PT CI work with you , or the school work with you at the site to remediate any problems. After all, you have invested three years of your life and thousands of dollars in the school. If they do not let you finish it might be worthwhile to consult with an attorney to find out what your rights are. Wishing you the best.........it takes a lot of courage to share your story ............get lots of support and dont let this experience define you ......hoping it is one that will help you grow and who knows maybe one day make you a compassionate CI

 

[darkangel77]

I, too, was shocked when it seemed like my PT director and the dean were against me...I thought they would be on my side, of all people! Or at least be a little more compassionate. As far as I have heard from some of my classmates, I'm not the only person to be treated this way by the director of the program. They seemed like they were finding every reason for me NOT to continue, while the rest of the committee appeared to be more understanding.

I've never failed a clinical before, nor have I failed any classes. Every clinical instructor had positive things to say about me by the time the final evaluation came. I had found another email from my CI from the week before I was terminated, in which she said "great job today with your treatments!!" So I forwarded that to my director as well, along with a play-by-play of what happened in the 6 days between that email and my notice of termination. I sent that to her last night, and CCed it to the other teachers who were at that meeting. I haven't received a response yet, but I expect to in the next few hours or by the end of the day.

In their defense though, I did have 3 of my teachers there who were trying to back me up. My ACCE seemed like she was trying to be understanding, even if she was a little upset at the research project situation, in which I apologized to her in front of the entire committee, that it had to come down to getting me an independent project.

So, NYCPT, to answer your questions, I feel as though I had some teachers supporting me, while the dean and my director were not. No, my CI never gave me a warning about my progress. Yes, of course I did make mistakes but I always corrected them. And even still, most of the mistakes I felt like I made was specific to a pediatric school setting: Giving directions effectively to kids, ensuring safety when there are 3 kids in a group and one is misbehaving and not listening, making activities into a game so they will participate, running a class of 12 or 20 kids and keeping them all organized, how to deal with kids with behavioral problems, etc...

The only time I ever got a hint that I could fail was the day before I got terminated, and even though it seemed to come out of the left field, I agreed to work my butt off with her in the next 4 weeks, and she seemed to be willing to work with me.

I don't feel as if my school prepared me for a pediatric affiliation...our pediatrics class was very vague. I had spoken to my CI about this, and she told me that in her experience, most of pediatrics (and most of PT, I think) is learned on the job. It was also the class I had the most difficulty with, and there was something telling me "no" to taking on a pediatric affil as my final affiliation, but I decided I wanted the experience with kids anyway. The school assigns our clinical sites in this manner: 1st and 2nd year, they assign you a site based on what's available. 3rd and 4th affils, you can pick up to 5 choices and (usually) they assign you one of those 5 sites. My first 2 choices were actually hospitals, and my third choice was the pediatric setting.

If the school does dismiss me, God forbid, would speaking to a lawyer help at all?

angl88, I don't think the school would go to the clinical site with me to remediate any problems, and there was only one PT at that site so I wouldn't have been able to work with a different CI, unfortunately. With that said, my ACCE said yesterday that she had never met my CI, nor visited the site, but she "sounds nice" over the phone.

When I spoke with my ACCE on the Friday I was terminated, she made it sound like I was still going to be able to graduate on time and able to take my courses next semester, but she'd have to find me a different site to repeat the clinical, to which I had no problem with. However, after the meeting yesterday, I have mixed feelings.

The committee also said that the director of the facility (my last clinical site) was in agreement with everything my CI said...kicker is, I've never even met the director of the facility and don't even know what she looks like. So how can she assess me when she's never seen me before?

 

[callmecrazy]

It's unfortunate that your CI didn't communicate better with you; it's one thing to know and another thing entirely to be blindsided. Though you should know there are plenty of PT students that have to repeat clinicals, or participate in an "extra" clinical after they should have been done. I know students from numerous schools that have done so just recently. Rest assured- they have jobs now!

That being said, it's a good lesson learned for anyone going into a new clinical. Our ACCE reminded us frequently to contact her IMMEDIATELY if any issues arise in the clinic. If you are given too much too soon, your CI isn't giving consistent feedback, or anything else that isn't quite right, you should open up discussion with your ACCE a soon as possible. It is not a student's responsibility to take their CI's case load before they are ready to "help them out", and I'd be weary of any CI that makes the possibility of failing you a frequent talking point. I know it's a little late for that now, but hopefully it can help someone else.

And now all that said, I'm wondering what you were doing as a PT/SPT being in charge of running an entire class of 12-20 children? You aren't there to be a teacher; that's not physical therapy. I can't imagine why this would even occur. Something seems very strange about that whole situation.

 

[truthseeker]

Reading through the thread I have a few observations.

I feel bad for you. However, you are a little contradictory in what you said. In the original post you said that your CI never informed you that you were in jeopardy of failing the clinical. Yet in post #4, you said that they did say that they were not sure if you would pass.

You say that you could answer 90% of the questions that your CI asked. The ones that you couldn't answer matter. If they are critical ones, then those misses hold more influence.

The amount of work you put in has no bearing on whether or not you know and can safely implement the material. Hard work helps but if you don't get it, you don't get it.

Are you able to look back at other PT students who have had this same CI? If so, did they have similar problems?

I understand why you are frustrated, but speaking from the point of view of a CI, there are times when students just don't succeed. In order to have gotten into PT school you must be a successful student and are not used to failing or even struggling. So this is new to you. I have had students stuggle but I try to make a point of communicating thoughout the clinical so that nothing is a surprise. I have had 2-3 that were in jeopardy of failing but did not. I told them what they needed to improve upon and they did.

In one instance, I had a PTA student who was in dire jeopardy of failing based upon simple didactic failures. i.e. they didn't know the things that they should have. I asked her to put electrodes in certain places and they were not put where they were supposed to. I tried to handle it in house by giving her study materials and encouraging her to review but when that failed, I contacted her ACCE. Here is what was most frustrating. The ACCE told me that she was a good student and basically didn't believe me.

My point is that blind support of a programs students by faculty is a sure way to end clinical affiliations with a clinical site. I ended my relationship with that PTA school based on their, in essence, denial that she was failing.

Work harder on your make up clinical. Do it in an area you are interested in. and good luck.

 

[dimsim]

Yeah I agree, 15-20 kids at the same time is calling for disaster. This sounds more like a teacher's job rather than a PT's job. And how do the PTs manage to treat them all together?!

 

[darkangel77]

callmecrazy, I don't mind if I have to repeat another clinical. I realized that maybe no matter how hard I tried, peds in a school setting maybe just isn't for me. Perhaps that was my mistake, that I should have contacted my ACCE earlier. I had tried talking to my CI when I felt like I was being overwhelmed, and she just told me "well, this is what I do on a daily basis".

As far as running a class of 12-20 children, the OTs/PTs/STs run a yoga class once a week for about 22 first graders, and another fitness class with a special ed class. I was told to run both classes, starting about the 4th week, which I had no problem with; I had fun planning out activities for them and the kids seemed to have fun, too. But it took me some time to adjust to running a class as I've never done it before.

Truthseeker, maybe I should have clarified. Up until the 2nd to last day, the feedback I was given was "you're doing great!" Along with 2 emails to back it up. It was only on the 2nd to last day that she suddenly said "I don't know if I can pass you", and even though I felt like it came out of the left field, I still agreed to do whatever she thought was necessary so I could pass. She and I set up a plan and she gave me some things to review. On the last day, we didn't treat at all because we spent the whole day in a meeting. My point is, there was no process and I felt like I had no time or opportunity to improve, which was why I was blindsided by the sudden termination.

 

[truthseeker]

Then you had a really bad CI. There should be absolutely no surprises on the midterm or the final. Especially surprises that jeopardize passing. I wonder what previous students have said about this particular CI. I would be interesting to check. If the reviews are bad, its on your school for continuing the relationship.

 

[darkangel77]

Then you had a really bad CI. There should be absolutely no surprises on the midterm or the final. Especially surprises that jeopardize passing. I wonder what previous students have said about this particular CI. I would be interesting to check. If the reviews are bad, its on your school for continuing the relationship.

I absolutely agree that there should be no surprises on the midterm or final. She had made it no secret that I was doing fine. I was able to safely treat her kids, and I was able to rationalize every intervention I was doing for them. She did like to ask "what if" and "what would you do" questions.

I don't like to think that I could have a bad CI, so even though I was having some trouble in the first few weeks, I did everything I could to improve, and she admitted that I did. I've always been the kind of person who focuses on my problems, first and foremost, and I've taken all her suggestions on how to improve the quality of my treatments, especially with groups of children. In fact, the kids and I got along great and they loved coming to PT when they saw me.

All my hard work was put in so I could understand and improve myself. It wasn't just about paperwork or running after kids, a lot of my free time was devoted to researching treatment options, Initial Evals, and diagnoses of the children I was treating.

I just don't understand why she would say "good job", up until 3 days before my termination, if I was doing so poorly to warrant a failure.

I agree with what you did; if a student is in danger of failing, and the student knows, then the student and the CI should do what they can to ensure that the student passes; there should be a process of you telling them what they need to improve on. Failing that, I can understand a call to the ACCE and a possible failure on the student's part. It's unfortunate that the ACCE didn't believe you.

I know that this CI has had other students in the past, but the two before me were not from my school, and the last one who was with her, from my school, was there about a year or two ago and has since graduated. I didn't know him.

 

[jblil]

OP - in your shoes, I would create a clear timeline of the event(s), and print out all the pertinent emails sent by your CI. The key here is documentation, in case you have to do a formal appeal, or have to send your case to others for another review. You want to make it concise, but without omitting important details. The goal is for the reader/reviewer to be able to grasp all the facts of the situation without having to wade through pages of "he said-she said."

I am a bit older than most of you, and was in the corporate world for a long time. I had to fire a couple of employees back then; conversely, I had to argue in favor of a guy who was to be laid off. In both instances, having clear documentation made it a lot easier.

 

[Azimuthal]

OP - in your shoes, I would create a clear timeline of the event(s), and print out all the pertinent emails sent by your CI. The key here is documentation, in case you have to do a formal appeal, or have to send your case to others for another review. You want to make it concise, but without omitting important details. The goal is for the reader/reviewer to be able to grasp all the facts of the situation without having to wade through pages of "he said-she said."

I am a bit older than most of you, and was in the corporate world for a long time. I had to fire a couple of employees back then; conversely, I had to argue in favor of a guy who was to be laid off. In both instances, having clear documentation made it a lot easier.

+1. Great advice.

 

[darkangel77]

Thanks so much for the advice, jblil. I agree that documentation makes things easier.

I had forwarded both emails to the director of my program, along with my ACCE and the teachers who were present at the meeting. The last email that my CI sent me was "great job with treatments today!", which came about 6 work days before I found out I was terminated.

I followed the emails up with a day-by-day timeline of what happened in those 6 days, as I was able to remember everything that happened, what she said (questions she asked me) and my responses to them. I included the questions because apparently my lack of basic knowledge was a point of contention and I wanted to give them some examples of the questions she asked and the answers I gave.

Basically, Day 1 - Day 4 after the last email, she said nothing but "good job". Day 5 was when she said "I don't know if I can pass you, but let's work together and set up a plan so you can pass". Day 6 was when we had the all-day meeting and when I found out I was terminated by my ACCE.

I sent that email 3 days ago, and have not yet heard a response yet, or gotten any response asking for clarification on anything (and if I know my director, if she disagreed with something she would have said something right away). Fingers crossed...the waiting is the hardest part.

 

[jesspt]

Darkangel,

Does your school use the Physical Therapy Clinical Performance Instrument? If the signals you were getting from your CI were so contradictory, you should have received good marks on your mid-term, which should be document and on file with your school. If all other clinicals went well, these CPIs should also be documented with your school.

I agree with jbil - create a detailed timeline, with objective information including emails, written remarks and CPIs. Things like "my instructors were proud of me," or "my CI said I did a great job" mean nothing if there is no objective documentation to back it up. It sounds like you have started doing this.

Truthseeker is likely right - your CI was unprofessional at best, and far too cavalier with a potential health care providers professional life at worst.

It sounds like you'll likely receive the opportunity to do another clinical. The two students in my class who failed a clinical were given this opportunity, and eventually passed and graduated.

A word of caution if you do get the cahnce at another clinical: I have been a CI to a student on a provisional clinical, as he had failed his previous one. His perception of his weaknesses, relative to what his school's and my perceptions were, were miles apart. Be prepared to have an open and frank discussion with your new CI about what your school perceives your weaknesses to be. This should be done early in the clinical to avoid any potential miscommunication.

Best of luck.

Thanks so much for the advice, jblil. I agree that documentation makes things easier.

I had forwarded both emails to the director of my program, along with my ACCE and the teachers who were present at the meeting. The last email that my CI sent me was "great job with treatments today!", which came about 6 work days before I found out I was terminated.

I followed the emails up with a day-by-day timeline of what happened in those 6 days, as I was able to remember everything that happened, what she said (questions she asked me) and my responses to them. I included the questions because apparently my lack of basic knowledge was a point of contention and I wanted to give them some examples of the questions she asked and the answers I gave.

Basically, Day 1 - Day 4 after the last email, she said nothing but "good job". Day 5 was when she said "I don't know if I can pass you, but let's work together and set up a plan so you can pass". Day 6 was when we had the all-day meeting and when I found out I was terminated by my ACCE.

I sent that email 3 days ago, and have not yet heard a response yet, or gotten any response asking for clarification on anything (and if I know my director, if she disagreed with something she would have said something right away). Fingers crossed...the waiting is the hardest part.

 

[truthseeker]

JessPT said this:
"His perception of his weaknesses, relative to what his school's and my perceptions were, were miles apart. Be prepared to have an open and frank discussion with your new CI about what your school perceives your weaknesses to be."

BINGO! A CI who is not capable of giving constructive criticism at the expense of someone's self esteem is not worthy of the position. Further, a student is not willing to accept said criticism should find a different line of work.

Darkangel,
Although is seems that you are getting a lot of support from the posters on this thread, you need to recognize what Jess said may apply to you.
Sometimes it is difficult to recognize your own weaknesses and even more difficult to hear it from someone else. Your CI may well have felt that you were struggling throughout but was afraid to confront you about it. Maybe, the "attaboys" or "attagirls" were to try to just be nice. If so, you did not get the guidance that you should have.

 

[darkangel77]

Darkangel,

Does your school use the Physical Therapy Clinical Performance Instrument? If the signals you were getting from your CI were so contradictory, you should have received good marks on your mid-term, which should be document and on file with your school. If all other clinicals went well, these CPIs should also be documented with your school.

Yes, my school uses the CPI. I did have some difficulty during my first few weeks, as I mentioned above, so those difficulties were documented (I had trouble organizing groups of kids, or giving effective directions, got a bit disorganized when kids were excessively hyper/lethargic or defiant, for example). But in most of the sections where she did document the issues I was having initially, she had written that I was improving.

The two emails she sent with positive feedback both came 1 week and 3 weeks after the midterm, respectively. I don't have much else in writing, except when she sent me an email about some goals I wrote, saying they looked great, and made a comment on one of my assignments saying "great job".

JessPT, I do agree with you. I will sit down with my next CI, within the first week, to discuss expectations and talk about what the school thinks I need to work on. I will likely also ask for written feedback on a weekly/bi-weekly basis so there are absolutely no surprises, come midterm and final time.

Whatever my CIs have told me that I needed to improve on, I've improved on and worked my hardest to do so. Perhaps I did not get the guidance as I should have, as you said, truthseeker, but if my CI really felt like I was struggling, I feel like, as my CI, she should have sat me down and spoken to me about it. For example, she reported to my school that she felt like I was distracted all the time, and that was an issue since the second week of my clinic. That was never brought to my attention, throughout the entire affiliation.

Worst part about it all, I miss those kids that I was treating. Even though I had some trouble in the school setting, I really did enjoy working with them. Just a week before I was terminated, two of them were asking when I was leaving, and then told me "I don't want you to leave".

I haven't gotten a response from my teachers or my director yet, so we'll see what happens.

 

[darkangel77]

JessPT said this:
"His perception of his weaknesses, relative to what his school's and my perceptions were, were miles apart. Be prepared to have an open and frank discussion with your new CI about what your school perceives your weaknesses to be."

BINGO! A CI who is not capable of giving constructive criticism at the expense of someone's self esteem is not worthy of the position. Further, a student is not willing to accept said criticism should find a different line of work.

I'm in total agreement of what you said. I want to be a good PT and I want to learn everything I can, so I take in all forms of feedback, whether its positive or constructive criticism, target those, and do my best to improve, because I know I take criticism to heart. My previous CI and even this CI, both told me I accept constructive criticism well, and much better than some of their old students.

I really think if my CI had brought up my "lack of basic knowledge" before the 2nd-to-last day, or made mention of my "consistent distracted state", well, ever, then I know I would have taken more effort to review and do basic skills in front of her, talked to her about it, and would have made a conscious effort to appear as focused as I could when she was speaking to me.

 

[ptdpt]

Darkangel77, just checking to see how everything turned out. Hope everything turned out well.

 

[Azimuthal]

darkangel77, just checking to see how everything turned out. Hope everything turned out well.

+1

 

[darkangel77]

Darkangel77, just checking to see how everything turned out. Hope everything turned out well.

Hey, thanks. Everything is fine as far as I know. I spent about a week going back and forth with my ACCE, director, and dean. They had asked me to go see a psychologist or a counselor to address my issues of occasional blanking out and nervousness, and that meeting went well. I went to see a psychologist and she cleared me of any issues, saying that at the most, I had very mild performance anxiety, and she said it was nothing to be worried about.

I relayed all the information to my director and the last thing I heard, last week, was that upon successful completion of next semester's courses, that they would start planning my return to clinic. So I probably will have to make it up over the summer, but at least I have a friend who will be doing it with me, so it won't be so bad.

Other than that I've been working with my ACCE/research mentor for my research paper, so here's hoping that everything goes well in the next few months.

Thanks so much for the advice and support, guys, I am so grateful =)

 

[ptdpt]

Glad things are going well.

 

[darkangel77]

Just thought I'd pop in here and give another update on how things are going.

I graduated in May with my class! Everything worked out well, my research mentor / ACCE is hoping that she can publish my paper, so we'll see how everything goes with that.

As far as clinic goes, I was placed in a subacute setting, and everything is going wonderfully, and I am getting along well with the students there and the other PTs/OTs. It seems like everyone I've met so far at my new clinic is very easygoing and willing to help / give advice. I've been doing well and my CI told me that unless I mess up royally, I would have no problem passing this clinic. I'll be getting my diploma in August, when I finish.

All of your support has meant much to me. Hats off to all of you who have supported me and given me advice in this thread!

 

[Azimuthal]

This is great news! Congratulations!

 

[Lost4words]

This is great news! Congratulations!

It is great to hear that your situation had a happy ending. I am hoping for the same.

Soapbox: In any event, it is criminal to dismiss anybody from a Ed program: MD, PT or DC, etc....We have peoples lives in our hands is not an excuse to take away a person's dream. Teachers or other professionals have a better supportive system then the medical field for their respected students. I feel there is a big disparity. Bad CI's mess it up for good CI's or bad students mess it up for good students. BUT, how about the student who suffers a mental break-down because of multiple comorbidities. Well this is my story.

It is criminal the any powers of our Ed. system is not willing to hear the truth. I did not even get a hearing, or probation, or nothing. All three attempts, I was told; "because of my situation I should get back in the program." However, all three appeals processes was uphold. This led to my dismissal. I will find justice; so, help me god.

 

[Azimuthal]

It is great to hear that your situation had a happy ending. I am hoping for the same.

Soapbox: In any event, it is criminal to dismiss anybody from a Ed program: MD, PT or DC, etc....We have peoples lives in our hands is not an excuse to take away a person's dream. Teachers or other professionals have a better supportive system then the medical field for their respected students. I feel there is a big disparity. Bad CI's mess it up for good CI's or bad students mess it up for good students. BUT, how about the student who suffers a mental break-down because of multiple comorbidities. Well this is my story.

It is criminal the any powers of our Ed. system is not willing to hear the truth. I did not even get a hearing, or probation, or nothing. All three attempts, I was told; "because of my situation I should get back in the program." However, all three appeals processes was uphold. This led to my dismissal. I will find justice; so, help me god.

What happened?

 

[NewTestament]

Soapbox: In any event, it is criminal to dismiss anybody from a Ed program: MD, PT or DC, etc....We have peoples lives in our hands is not an excuse to take away a person's dream. .

I agree. Dismissing a student for cheating is one thing, but I hear about these schools that dismiss students for getting a B- in one class. That's criminal. These schools take a student's money if he can't meet impossible standards. If my school had that policy, I'd be living under a bridge right now with a shopping cart.

I'd like to know what happens to students who are dimissed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but once you're dismissed from one program, there's no chance of getting into another one. Also, who would write an LOR for you after you've been dismissed. At least a retail worker doesn't have massive loans to pay off, and hasn't invested years of his life going to school. The dismissed student has no professional future but does have a lot of debt. I think about this a lot.

What do you mean, "we have lives in our hands is not an excuse to take away a person's dream."

Kevin

 

[mwindsor602]

I have a situation regarding dismissal from my PT program. I was a student that never had trouble with the didactic work, maintaining a 3.8 gpa in my graduate coursework, and having positive reviews from my level 1 (outpatient ortho) and 2 (subacute) clinical. I applied to a rehabilitation hospital for 1 of my final 2 affiliations on the west coast (i live on the east coast), and received a spot there. This was the farthest I had traveled away from home, and I saw the opportunity as exciting. After 6 weeks, my clinical instructor expressed concerns that i would not pass this affiliation due to safety concerns: slow reactions, low insight/awareness, need for prompting. I also struggled with clinical reasoning, I would plan treatments and have great conversations with my CI prior to treatment, but when put on the spot or asked on the fly, i became disorganized in thought. This led to slight defensiveness, and when i was unable to answer, i would be overcome with anxiety.
My ACCE decided to pull me from this rotation, do remediation, and do a repeat clinical in acute care. I struggled with remediation, acquiring the skills and having the knowledge base was fine, but had a huge struggle trusting my judgment and building my confidence. The main concern was consistency and my school told me that if i didn't improve within an additional 2 weeks, I wouldn't be able to go onward to my acute care affiliation. I did make it through remediation.
The first 4 weeks of acute care went well, no concerns or red flags were mentioned at my site visit between my ACCE, clinical instructor and myself. My CI said i needed to increase consistency with my chart reviews and communication with case managers, as well as discharge plan better, but overall, i was at a level expected for a student at week 4 out of 10. I expressed fear to my ACCE at the end that although I feel I'm doing well, I have a fear of regression back. She assured me I was ok. Week 5 came, and I missed a weight baring status on a patient who had a IM rod for prophylaxic measure due to cancer. It was in his written chart, and I couldn't find it. When questioned, I became anxious and frustrated. My CI did show me where the status was after I tried twice. In my midterm CPI, it was stated that active listening was the reason why I was limiting me in accountability and clinical reasoning. My CI said that I didn't come off as intentionally being rude, its just hard when the mind keeps racing and you're not processing info. On week 6, I became distracted by a patient's convo, did not put a gait belt on her, and she had a posterior displacement/lower to ground. my program pulled me from the affil and dismissed me. All of my instructors and advisors have said to me, "no one has tried as hard you have"
My family advised me to see a psychologist, who diagnosed me with ADHD, exacerbated with anxiety. My classmates and past clinical instructors are encouraging me to appeal under this extenuating circumstance and continue on the profession I fell in love with as a kid. I've considered becoming a science teacher, and explored other careers, but with a program dismissal, idk what's still open to me. Thoughts?

 

[james123]

I had the exact same thing happen to me. I never had any problems with my course work or in any clinical affiliation until my very last one which was also a PEDs setting. That was a very new setting that was challenging. My CI was 8 months pregnant and had ups and downs constantly. I had to ask repeatedly for feedback so I could improve and she would complain about it, but not offer correction. I talked to my ACCE and she said I was being paranoid. Two days later that same ACCE pulled me from the clinic after 4 weeks due only to the comments my CI had made to her in private. I tried to defend myself and I had a daily journal of everything but she didn't care. I had to go before my school and I tried to explain but they weren't receptive. I tried to show them her own contradictions in her CPI midterm comments but I was told that it would just delay my graduation more if I tried to fight it. So now I'm in a two month "remediation" for PEDs, even though I got an A in that class and the assignments they are having me do are a bit ridiculous. I was told that I would not graduate with my class that I've been with the last three years. To put this in perspective, my last two CI's both offered me jobs. The last one offered me partnership in a second business he is opening. He graduated from my same school and said he has never had a student he wanted to hire and offer partnership as a longevity incentive until me. My school said that most students pulled from internships have attitude issues but that it wasn't the case for me and that my CI at least stated that I was very receptive. Oh and my CI's source of information that she wanted me to use to prepare, was Pinterest.

 

[Azimuthal]

I have a situation regarding dismissal from my PT program. I was a student that never had trouble with the didactic work, maintaining a 3.8 gpa in my graduate coursework, and having positive reviews from my level 1 (outpatient ortho) and 2 (subacute) clinical. I applied to a rehabilitation hospital for 1 of my final 2 affiliations on the west coast (i live on the east coast), and received a spot there. This was the farthest I had traveled away from home, and I saw the opportunity as exciting. After 6 weeks, my clinical instructor expressed concerns that i would not pass this affiliation due to safety concerns: slow reactions, low insight/awareness, need for prompting. I also struggled with clinical reasoning, I would plan treatments and have great conversations with my CI prior to treatment, but when put on the spot or asked on the fly, i became disorganized in thought. This led to slight defensiveness, and when i was unable to answer, i would be overcome with anxiety.
My ACCE decided to pull me from this rotation, do remediation, and do a repeat clinical in acute care. I struggled with remediation, acquiring the skills and having the knowledge base was fine, but had a huge struggle trusting my judgment and building my confidence. The main concern was consistency and my school told me that if i didn't improve within an additional 2 weeks, I wouldn't be able to go onward to my acute care affiliation. I did make it through remediation.
The first 4 weeks of acute care went well, no concerns or red flags were mentioned at my site visit between my ACCE, clinical instructor and myself. My CI said i needed to increase consistency with my chart reviews and communication with case managers, as well as discharge plan better, but overall, i was at a level expected for a student at week 4 out of 10. I expressed fear to my ACCE at the end that although I feel I'm doing well, I have a fear of regression back. She assured me I was ok. Week 5 came, and I missed a weight baring status on a patient who had a IM rod for prophylaxic measure due to cancer. It was in his written chart, and I couldn't find it. When questioned, I became anxious and frustrated. My CI did show me where the status was after I tried twice. In my midterm CPI, it was stated that active listening was the reason why I was limiting me in accountability and clinical reasoning. My CI said that I didn't come off as intentionally being rude, its just hard when the mind keeps racing and you're not processing info. On week 6, I became distracted by a patient's convo, did not put a gait belt on her, and she had a posterior displacement/lower to ground. my program pulled me from the affil and dismissed me. All of my instructors and advisors have said to me, "no one has tried as hard you have"
My family advised me to see a psychologist, who diagnosed me with ADHD, exacerbated with anxiety. My classmates and past clinical instructors are encouraging me to appeal under this extenuating circumstance and continue on the profession I fell in love with as a kid. I've considered becoming a science teacher, and explored other careers, but with a program dismissal, idk what's still open to me. Thoughts?

Any update?

 

[Azimuthal]

I had the exact same thing happen to me. I never had any problems with my course work or in any clinical affiliation until my very last one which was also a PEDs setting. That was a very new setting that was challenging. My CI was 8 months pregnant and had ups and downs constantly. I had to ask repeatedly for feedback so I could improve and she would complain about it, but not offer correction. I talked to my ACCE and she said I was being paranoid. Two days later that same ACCE pulled me from the clinic after 4 weeks due only to the comments my CI had made to her in private. I tried to defend myself and I had a daily journal of everything but she didn't care. I had to go before my school and I tried to explain but they weren't receptive. I tried to show them her own contradictions in her CPI midterm comments but I was told that it would just delay my graduation more if I tried to fight it. So now I'm in a two month "remediation" for PEDs, even though I got an A in that class and the assignments they are having me do are a bit ridiculous. I was told that I would not graduate with my class that I've been with the last three years. To put this in perspective, my last two CI's both offered me jobs. The last one offered me partnership in a second business he is opening. He graduated from my same school and said he has never had a student he wanted to hire and offer partnership as a longevity incentive until me. My school said that most students pulled from internships have attitude issues but that it wasn't the case for me and that my CI at least stated that I was very receptive. Oh and my CI's source of information that she wanted me to use to prepare, was Pinterest.

Sounds pretty ridiculous, but it sounds like you'll pull through. Keep at it.

 

[mwindsor602]

Any update?

I started a masters in education for biology teaching in the fall. my program basically didn't accept my appeal, never gave me another chance, and basically i have a bachelors in health science with no real clinical use of it anymore bc of my record

 

[Azimuthal]

I started a masters in education for biology teaching in the fall. my program basically didn't accept my appeal, never gave me another chance, and basically i have a bachelors in health science with no real clinical use of it anymore bc of my record

I'm sorry to hear that. Best of luck to you!

 

[redrose424]

Uh I would have sued. That is absurd. Wow. I can't believe you let them do that to you without a fight. I would threaten a huge lawsuit.

Again I ask, sue for what? Why are you so lawsuit happy?

 

[truthseeker]

wow

 

[redrose424]

I'm American. If there is a legitimate reason to sue you should if you're being kicked out of your program.

I am not going to discuss specifics here but I have experienced a good deal of bias in my program at the hands of instructors; well liked people (who are mysteriously always white and female) get a pass in my program even when the same assignment (identical work done as a group) is handed in and graded by the same person. There are repeated instances of this; I would not hesitate to bring a lawsuit if this happened to me. My program has actively resisted requests for any discussion of multiculturalism in our program as it relates to OT. It's a problem.

Umm okay, but where did OP say anything about instructors being prejudiced? You said "Uh I would have sued. That is absurd. Wow. I can't believe you let them do that to you without a fight. I would threaten a huge lawsuit." That is the definition of crazy and lawsuit happy. There is absolutely no reason nor any grounds to sue based on someone failing a clinical (if they weren't actively being discriminated against - which there is NO reason to assume that the OP is). Let me guess, have you respectfully approached said "biased" instructors and asked what issues your work has had and where one could improve? My guess is not. You need to enter the real world and learn the best approach to handling conflict is not threatening a huge lawsuit - it makes you look unintelligent and abrasive.

edit: and being American has nothing to do with it. Shame on you for even mentioning that.

 

[redrose424]

Keep in mind that you do not know me. You have no idea who I am or anything about my program or my experiences yet you're assuming that I didn't approach my director in a respectful way.

There is a systematic problem in my department with a total rejection of any multiculturalism component to our curriculum. My program is 98% white and 95% female:

1- I'm not afraid to litigate if I feel the law is being violated, Americans have a reputation for not being afraid of litigation which is why I jokingly mentioned my nationality as an American
2- Yes, I would threaten a lawsuit, as in my case there was a REASON based on my experiences to sue if that happened to me - I handed in the same exact work a few times in a group work setting- identical document submissions with me getting substantially lower grades than the same work handed in by a different person
3- I would argue that I've It's met a brick wall in my program and your comments make you look unintelligent and abrasive not me.

I am making judgements about you due to the posts you have made on this forum, your own thoughts and opinions, and therefore keep in mind that my assumptions are not baseless. When you throw out phrases like "I'd threaten a huge lawsuit!" you bring these sort of assumptions on yourself.

1) Clearly you aren't afraid, as is evidenced by your lawsuit happy posts on multiple threads. This is not a positive quality. Maybe you are joking, but I highly doubt that, and jokes aren't received well through text. Don't add to that reputation.
2) Why are you and other group members handing in the EXACT same work? If you are in a group, yet each individual is required to submit documents, it is clear the instructor does not want them to be exactly the same. Furthermore, you have yet to produce the answer of how you approached said professor and what their response was concerning why your grade is really so much lower (and also, since when do we all sit around and compare our grades on assignments?)
3) You can argue that but you haven't provided any sort of evidence (including how you may have approached these issues). I disagree that I have presented myself in any way similar to unintelligent and abrasive. I caution you to be wary of how you are presenting yourself, because to me (a random individual through forums) it is not well. So imagine how you seem to other people who you interact with.

 

[redrose424]

Re-read. I posted about my personal experience with instances which I thought were not just. Further, I have given you an example of my desire for multicultualism in our curriculum - which was met with a stone wall. Combine this with my nearly 100% white and 100% female faculty and student composition in my program. I don't care what you think, I know what the reality is in my program.



Group assignment - this instructor wanted it handed in separately though. She knew they would be identical. Your assumption is stupid.



You are abrasive and unintelligent; further you make a lot of assumptions when I have given you a clear refutation of your points. I'm not here to convince you about my clinical experience which I felt was discriminatory; the issue was eventually dealt with in my program when I brought it up respectfully going through the chain of command.

I suggest you re-read your original post and subsequent posts. Your original comment, as I quoted above and again now "I'd threaten a huge lawsuit!" was not based on your own experiences, nor did you even mention your own experiences. It was wildly disproportional to OP's original statement and out of the blue - hence, it makes you look unintelligent and abrasive. Please look back and refresh your memory.

Furthermore, saying you had a desire for multiculturalism in your curriculum is not offering an example of how you approached any faculty regarding this desire. You simply stated you had a desire for this component but was met with a "stone wall." For all I know you could have ran down the halls yelling about multiculturalism. Did you approach a director with a presentation? Did you send an email to a department chair? Did you really do anything? Who knows. And, maybe you aren't aware of this, but graduate programs are not required to have certain quotas - they typically pick students who meet their grade requirements and who they feel add to their program. It is astounding to me that you complain of a 100% white and 100% female faculty, yet you still chose the program (also, from your percentage I must assume you are also white and female). Did you not bother to notice this during the interview process? Did you not care? Once again, who knows.

"Your assumption is stupid." This points to that abrasive characteristic I noticed earlier. You still don't seem to care to address whether you approached said Professor and asked for an explanation. I wonder why. Not to mention, I highly doubt she wanted it to be identical, despite what you seem to think (why put people in groups and then ask for identical papers that you then have to individually add grades to).

You haven't given a clear refutation to any of my points - instead you simply keep repeating the same information while offering nothing new. If the issue was dealt with in your program then what exactly are you even complaining about?

I really wish people would get over this hypersensitive drivel and enter the real world like adults and professionals, but thats just me.

 

[redrose424]

I really don't want to engage you in further debate. I am not going to explain, examine and elucidate on something beyond what I have told you: there were blatant problems in my program.

I'm glad you spend your Friday nights refuting and attacking others by assuming knowledge beyond what you have.

"Furthermore, saying you had a desire for multiculturalism in your curriculum is not offering an example of how you approached any faculty regarding this desire. You simply stated you had a desire for this component but was met with a "stone wall." For all I know you could have ran down the halls yelling about multiculturalism. Did you approach a director with a presentation? Did you send an email to a department chair? Did you really do anything? Who knows. And, maybe you aren't aware of this, but graduate programs are not required to have certain quotas - they typically pick students who meet their grade requirements and who they feel add to their program. It is astounding to me that you complain of a 100% white and 100% female faculty, yet you still chose the program (also, from your percentage I must assume you are also white and female). Did you not bother to notice this during the interview process? Did you not care? Once again, who knows."

I know. If you want to know details, go ahead and contact me. I can tell you that I have done al of that: researched the situation and engaged the faculty/administrators politely and in a professional manner, and it met a dead end. I am not elaborating further than that, it was eventually resolved.

That's fine, but then don't state to me that you have "proved" anything.

As I said, if it was resolved, then there is really no reason for you to be complaining on a random forum spewing nonsense about lawsuits. Not to mention you didn't bother to mention ANY of the other comments I made. That's fine, I hope you don't encourage other people you meet in life to throw out frivolous lawsuits in the name of America.