Facts about the 10 year moratorium

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Excanuk

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I've seen a lot of misconception about the 10 year moratorium (particularly in the UQ forums) and since I know there is a lot of misinformation out there I thought I'd post a few things about it.

Firstly I'm a Canadian who is now an Australian citizen and I'm currently doing my residency in Australia.

1. How does the moratorium effect International students?

In my experience it doesn't effect international students greatly. You are still able to apply for jobs at all the major metro hospitals for all the speciality programs.

If you are a GP though it means you have to go through the rural GP pathway (ie Zone 4 or more which means areas less then 100 000 people) to complete your GP training. This is about the only real effect of the Moratorium that you will find while training. Unless you apply for an exemption under 19AB (which people have gotten if they have a partner or some other reason this would cause them undue hardship).

2. What does the moratorium really mean?

Contrary to what I've read on these forums, the moratorium prevents you from obtaining a provider number after graduation, not from working in a large city. A provider number is needed to work privately (ie as a GP or if you have rooms as a specialist). Unless you get a waiver from an area in need (this includes areas on the outskirts of large metros or regional/rural/remote areas).

Now here is the funny thing - I see lots of debate about this meaning effectively that you will be forced to a rural area, mainly by pre-meds who have no idea how specialists work!

Most people who become junior consultants after graduation know very little. They have few contacts and really have zero experience as a consultant. How in the world do you expect these people to go and establish a busy private practice? What GPs will refer to them? What if they come across something they have no idea about? What senior colleages will they discuss the situation with?

Building up a lucrative private practice takes time, and experience. Most junior consultants (and that includes locals) are more then happy to take up a public job and build up a steady client base/referral network to funnel to their private rooms. They also prefer the safety of having senior colleages around to discuss difficult cases with, which is a lot easier to do publicly.

In terms of pay, though the "hard cash" you get is less then private work. You do a lot less as well. You also have a lot of fringe benefits like 24k for conferences yearly, fuel cards, free cars, laptops, living reinbursements etc. that close the gap between the two jobs. Ideally however for most benefit you should have both jobs, so you get the advantages of each.

What I'm saying then is that you will probably want to work publicly after you graduate, and the moratorium isn't going to stop you from doing that in a large city. If for some reason you are ahead of the game and ready for private practice (and most importantly have a good referral network) then you can go to an area of need, which doesn't mean rural. There are areas of need everywhere.

Since you are looking at 5+ years for most training programs (especially if you include the RMO years) you realistically only have 2-3 years of moratorium time left by the time you are done. More then enough to get experience to build up a private practice. Most importantly more then fair to Australia for training you, and paying your salary.

3. What about GPs?

These guys unfortunately get hit the hardest. Since they will have the most moratorium time left after finishing. However they also get paid really well, even while training. If you look at the RRIPS you will see that they have the potential to earn $200k + a year for working 9-5 as registrars (depending on what zone they work in). They also can get into GP training in their intern year.

There are however a few ways of reducing or waiving the moratorium. The first option is schemes similar to the NSW rural doctors 5 year scheme (google it). It can reduce your moratorium to between 3-5 years depending on where you practice. Again the more rural you go the less time you do. This scheme is specific for GPs.

Areas of need are also huge loopholes. There are areas outside large metros that are classed as in need. If you want to get a particular area as classed in need the practice simply applies to the DH&A and it can be done fairly quickly.

Waivers are another way to go. You can get a waiver under 19AB and it's not as hard as you would think. Simply ask a practice that you want to work in to fill in the paperwork (ie demostrate they have been unable to hire a non moratorium candidate) and you can get an exemption. This applies to specialists as well.

If you still can't find a way out go and get registered in New Zealand or Canada. You can still work in a large centre there until your moratorium time is finished.

4. Any exemptions?

Yes some jobs by their very natures have exemptions. Pathologists for example do not require provider numbers because one person in the lab provides it for all the others. So they are naturally exempt. Other jobs like neurosurgeons are also exempt because they need to work in centres with neurosurgery support and thus it would make no sense to send them to the bush. ED physicians who also tend to work largely publicly probably won't have any issues either. It's also easier for them to get waivers since there is a huge shortage of them everywhere.

The whole point of this is to show you that it's not really as bad as you may think, and realistically it won't effect most of you.

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What school did you graduate from?

What do you think about the Tsunami of students that will hit Australia and the prospects of International Students who go to Australia to study?

And pardon my ignorance, what is an ED physcian?

I also thought there were private run hospitals? wouldnt you need a provider number for that? As I thought at those types of hospitals specalists set their own rates.
 
What school did you graduate from?

What do you think about the Tsunami of students that will hit Australia and the prospects of International Students who go to Australia to study?

And pardon my ignorance, what is an ED physcian?

I also thought there were private run hospitals? wouldnt you need a provider number for that? As I thought at those types of hospitals specalists set their own rates.

I graduated from the University of Sydney.

As for the Tsunami of students I think it's going to get more competitive here then it's been in the past. People have gotten pretty complacent and just expect a job handed to them but now they will have to compete for spots (and that includes locals as well).

It's still not going to be as difficult to get a job here as it will be in Canada or the US though because there seems to be a genuine attempt at providing more training spots, whereas the trend in the US has been to cut spots/Visas and in Canada it's been to not increase spots while simultaneously graduating more students.

I think more people will be forced into General Practice as specialist positions will be more competitive. Right now however for many specialties they have to beg you to take the job (Rehab or Physical medicine in the States being a prime example) even in Large hospitals like St. Vincents or Royal Melbourne. Those days will probably be over.

ED = Emergency Department

Yeah private hospitals are more numerous then public ones in a lot of places. And yes you would need a provider number to work at those hospitals but it's easy to get a waiver for 19AB at private hospitals because they have a tougher time attracting staff (more pay but also more work, and less public sector benefits like 4 hour lunches ;) )

Specialists still get paid wages in private hospitals, but they can demand higher wages cause the work there is a bit harder.

Nothing beats the amount of work you have to do in an Australian public hospital especially as a consultant. You literally walk in and do as you please, because you have a plethora of medical students, interns, residents, registrars etc to do your bidding. Not the case in a private hospital. Though this is going to change with all the new students coming through. A lot of my bosses have barely even written in the patient notes during admission.
 
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Thanks for the details.

Do you know of anyone who's been able to get a 19AB exemption as a GP?
 
To set your own "rates" you'd have to have a private room. Now it's true a lot of specialists have private rooms in private hospitals because they dont' have to pay for them, and they get secreterial staff (so no overhead) but the consult is what makes you the money.

If you are a surgeon you can also have private surgeries, which are surgeries that occur in private hospitals, for which you get paid 3 ways. The government money for the surgery, the private health insurance money and any extra (if you so deem) from the patient. It's a fee for service type of set up as opposed to a salaried wage.
 
Ah, I currently have no interest in surgical procedures...more into Internal Medicine and it's subspecalities (I believe they call it General Medicine in Australia?). Although I also have an interest in Family Practice as well...but I'm not in yet, so that may change.

would there be a difference in a public vs a private hospital?
 
It depends on what you do in the end.

IM depends on the speciality - for example with Endo you can work purely publicly, purely privately or both. If you work purely publicly you get a salaried wage with a lot of fringe benefits. If you work purely publicly you have two ways of doing this. You can work in a private hospital with bigger pay but more responsibilities. Or you can set up a private room in which you take referrals for patients from GPs and seem them all day, or you can work in the private hospital and your own rooms. Finally you can mix and match all three if you want.

Gastroenterology though you need some hospital time to do Scopes. That can be done in a public hospital or private hospital. You can also work as part of your public job in a private hospital if there isn't enough theatre time in the public for your operations.

Finally GP/FM is the one where you work 100% privately. As a GP you can work in your own rooms, as a "physician" in a private hospital (mainly GPs doing admission in the smaller private hospitals, with some locums) or doing surgical assisting privately. Lines get blurred here big time as I know lots of International medical students who do private surgical assisting or locums. Some do so in places that are definitely not in need.
 
well at least it seems like Primary care is not so bad then.

Am I correct though, if you work as a GP in a rural area the 10 year moratorium does not apply right? Working rural I think would be somewhat perfered for me based on what I want to do =)
 
Hey ExCanuxk - thanks for your informative posts and for sharing your personal experiences - great stuff!

Lyndal:cool:
 
GPs in rural towns are almost specialists anyway.

At our lab we get biopsies from a GP who does colonoscopies, and in smaller towns GPs have admission rights at local hospitals where they look after their own patients.
 
GPs in rural towns are almost specialists anyway.

At our lab we get biopsies from a GP who does colonoscopies, and in smaller towns GPs have admission rights at local hospitals where they look after their own patients.

We sure do :) Its one of the reasons I have never worked in the city...
 
http://www.actdgp.asn.au/index.php?action=view&view=31485&pid=11292

District of Workforce Shortage
Those practices located in an outer metro area (see map here) are eligible to be declared in a District of Workforce Shortage by the Department of Health and Ageing. Practices located in an inner metro area can apply to the Department of Health and Ageing for a special District of Workforce Shortage exemption. Please see DoctorConnect for more information or contact Kirsty at the Division on 02 6287 8099.

This specifically applies to GPs
 
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Another point to consider is that you will need money to buy a new house/pay off loans.

http://www.ochrerecruitment.com.au/positions-gp-locum.php

I doubt you can get pay like that in the big cities as a GP. Might make sense to save up a bit of money in the bush while you buy your mansion in Adelaide ;)

Since everything from accomodation to meals and travel is included in most of those packages, your only expenses would be tax.
 
I've seen a lot of misconception about the 10 year moratorium (particularly in the UQ forums) and since I know there is a lot of misinformation out there I thought I'd post a few things about it.

Careful with your claims here, Excanuk. You were banned from those forums for misrepresentation and for stirring up trouble (beginning here), not for disagreements about the moratorium.
 
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Careful with your claims here, Excanuk. You were banned from those forums for misrepresentation and for stirring up trouble (beginning here), not for disagreements about the moratorium.

What you failed to mention is that any post I made countering your claim that the 10 year moratorium is "a great evil" was deleted.

At least on SDN this thread or any of my points have not been deleted.
 
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No, those posts were deleted after you were told you were banned for inciting our users, and for misrepresentations like your above misquote.

I will not continue that debate with you on this forum. I just wanted to point others to your posts for reference, such as those on your opinion of Canadians, before they take your comments here at face value.
 
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No, those posts were deleted after you were told you were banned for inciting our users, and for misrepresentations like your above misquote.

I will not continue that debate with you on this forum. I just wanted to point others to your posts for reference, such as those on your opinion of Canadians, before they take your comments here at face value.

Actually those posts were deleted because they didn't agree with your opinion...which is why I started the thread here.

If I was really banned for "having a bit of fun" on your forum, then why weren't the other posts deleted? Why were only the posts that actually offered evidence of what I was saying (with links) as well as my opinion on the moratorium deleted?
 
Actually those posts were deleted because they didn't agree with your opinion...which is why I started the thread here.

You are wrong and fortunately, I have a long track record of not being so petty.

If I was really banned for "having a bit of fun" on your forum, then why weren't the other posts deleted?

Very simple: because they came before you were banned for inciting the forum users. Btw incitement is not seen as '"having a bit of fun"' (your words, not mine).

That's the end of it. If you keep responding to me, I will not reply, as answers were given both there and here.
 
That makes absolutely no sense at all. You were more then happy 'to ignore me' (your words not mine). Its only when I started posting facts contrary to your opinion (like you can get into GP during internship + stuff about the moratorium) that you took notice. Many of those posts were before I got banned (though how can you ban an annoynmous poster, since I had no account there?)and you can clearly see none of my informative posts are there, since they disagreed with your opinions.

Of course you're more tolerent here, since you don't have any mod powers. I bet you're just dying to close this thread.
 
Am I correct though, if you work as a GP in a rural area the 10 year moratorium does not apply right? Working rural I think would be somewhat perfered for me based on what I want to do =)

The moratorium does indeed still apply (as for all specialties) in that you would be restricted by it - you have to continue to qualify for an exemption under 19AB to obtain/keep a medicare prescriber number. The exemptions are working either in a District of Workforce Shortage (federally defined regions) or in an Area of Need (locations or particular positions that can't be filled domestically, defined at the state level).

While working in one of those areas, the moratorium does not further affect you.

Having a job that does not require a provider number is not an exemption per se, because the moratorium is just about the conditions for the restriction of provider numbers.

After the moratorium period is over (it effectively starts when you get PR, which can be upwards of a year after internship is completed and/or entry into a GP college due to federal bureaucracy), the restrictions to having a prescriber number are relaxed.
 
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Excanuk,

Not to beat a dead horse here but I couldn't find a post on the UQMS forums where Pitman actually said he was happy to ignore you...are you sure it was Pitman you're referring too?
 
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